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So.... Is Tails Suffering From Depression In Sonic Forces?

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25 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

This much is true, but it doesn't mean that every character has to be equally strong/good at fighting. Even if Tails isn't out there busting up robots he's still helping Sonic with his inventions, piloting skills, and general knowledge/intelligence, and that can be just as important.

The main issue is that the other characters' traits aren't treated as equally important.

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5 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The main issue is that the other characters' traits aren't treated as equally important.

An easy fix is just putting more emphasis on those "traits"...when there aren't a bunch of characters at once, the skills they do have individually could be actually focused on.

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For the record the Donkey Kong part was not part of an argument but rather a funny joke. I doubt they had that in hindsight.....or rather anything at all.

On the whole competency bit, of course not everyone can be equal. Though it's pretty clear Sonic is like some Christ figure as of late and not just the only truly competent one, but the only one who can actually get anything done. Though we already have a lot of people who are supposed to be Sonic's equal or at least billed at one point. Knuckles, Silver, Shadow, Blaze, Metal etc. But I will say I wouldn't want Tails to be just as good at fighting because that would rob him of his journey to becoming a big hero on his own. One big motivation is gone if he already has succeeded in this department.

Look no further than Mania Adventures Tails. Perfect balance right there. When it comes time to use his special tech trait, it doesn't come at the cost of it being his only use. He joined in to fight Super Metal, but also used Eggman's own tool against him after it was used on he and Sonic. It's baffling how it gets everything right while most recent things can't. And people really liked that....as well as tons of comments of "Why can't Modern Tails be this good"/Forces Tails sucks.

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1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The main issue is that the other characters' traits aren't treated as equally important.

Honestly, that doesn't really matter too much, considering that the series is focused around its titular character.

But Diogenes is right. Having useful, even powerful abilities has nothing to do with mental fortitude. Other characters such as Tails (who is supposedly 8 years old for mercy's sake) can and probably should have very useful abilities, but they shouldn't all have the same strength of will. When you have characters it is important that they are different. Put each of them in any given situation and each of them should react differently. Maybe if Knuckles or Sonic (or Shadow?????) were in Tails' position they'd have reacted differently. Knuckles might have felt the resolve to take the fight to Eggman, Sonic may have turned angry and vengeful at the potential loss of a close friend. Who knows

Forces was not a good game, nor did it have a particularly well written plot, but in certain areas they tried with the story. That they tried is the important part, because it means they can try again and maybe do it better. The intent was correct, but the execution was off. Problems like Infinite being the most one-note edgelord ever created, and the entire existence of Classic Sonic and Original the Character (DNS) are a detriment, but the latter two are at least ones I imagine were forced upon the writers by the circumstance of having absolutely creatively bankrupt management.

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3 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Did you miss the part when he pointed out that Tails couldn't help even if he jumped in? 

In a narrative, all characters are not created equally. There needs to be some type of hierarchy to establish more focus.

If everyone was as capable as Sonic, then it kind of undermines the fact that Sonic is the hero doesn't it.

I didn't miss anything. I simply didn't like that narrative they wrote. I never said Tails should had been able to defeat a ton of top ranking badguys at once. Or that Tails should had been able to defeat Chaos 0 when he was depressed... I just don't want Tails to be presented as useless or annoying as he tends to be lately outside of Sonic Mania. And I'm still not a fan of Tails being made into only a inventor either. I still prefer how Tails is done in the classic series. On a side note technically Shadow is more OP then Sonic... Has that rendered Sonic useless? No it hasn't because the writers don't make it that way. And I already said multiple characters being as capable as the hero doesn't bother me and is in fact a good thing in my eyes. In super hero crossover movies like the Avengers many of the heroes are just as capable heroes as each other even if some are more OP then others... But they don't resort to reducing everybody expect one guy as a back-up cheerleader squad... Honestly the more Sonic-Team keeps making Sonic out to be some hero deity... the more it makes me want to see him less and less in each game as a result.

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

This much is true, but it doesn't mean that every character has to be equally strong/good at fighting. Even if Tails isn't out there busting up robots he's still helping Sonic with his inventions, piloting skills, and general knowledge/intelligence, and that can be just as important.

Not every character needs to be equally strong/good at fighting, I'll agree. But in a mainly action platforming series not being able to fight hardly at all doesn't work good outside of being NPCs unless there is something else that greatly covers for it. For Tails to ever being playable in future Sonic games then he needs to be able to fight at least half as well as Sonic. Otherwise they have to ignore the narrative fully in gameplay or keep Tails a NPC forever unless they make a Sonic RPG/whatever where other skills can come into play better.

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32 minutes ago, Scar said:

Honestly, that doesn't really matter too much, considering that the series is focused around its titular character

Yes, but it insists on having a larger narrative with many recurring characters. If it's going to do that, the least it could do is use them properly.

23 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

I didn't miss anything. I simply didn't like that narrative they wrote. I never said Tails should had been able to defeat a ton of top ranking badguys at once. Or that Tails should had been able to defeat Chaos 0 when he was depressed... I just don't want Tails to be presented as useless or annoying as he tends to be lately outside of Sonic Mania. And I'm still not a fan of Tails being made into only a inventor either. I still prefer how Tails is done in the classic games. On a side note technically Shadow is more OP then Sonic... Has that rendered Sonic useless? No it hasn't because the writers don't make it that way. And I already said multiple characters being as capable as the hero doesn't bother me and is in fact a good thing in my eyes. In super hero crossover movies like the Avengers many of the heroes are just as capable heroes as each other even if some are more OP then others... But they don't resort to reducing everybody expect one guy as a back-up cheerleader squad... Honestly the more Sonic-Team keeps making Sonic out to be some hero deity... the more it makes me want to see him less and less in each game as a result.

Then focus on the traits that can actually contribute something important. Tails doesn't need to be a fighter on par with Sonic to do that is what I'm saying, and I disagree with the notion that he has to be capable of such, regardless of what past games have done. His supportive role can easily be just as capable as his more active role in the classics, the writers just aren't interested in portraying it as such. 

The bit about Shadow kind of proves my point. He literally has all of Sonic's abilities and his own on top of them. By logic, he should be more capable but isn't portrayed as such because then it'd make Sonic useless. The writers don't even really address this either and have just downplayed Shadow's other abilities to circumvent that.  That's my main point on having everyone as capable as the hero kind of undermines the hero's own position.

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12 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The bit about Shadow kind of proves my point. He literally has all of Sonic's abilities and his own on top of them. By logic, he should be more capable but isn't portrayed as such because then it'd make Sonic useless. The writers don't even really address this either and have just downplayed Shadow's other abilities to circumvent that.  That's my main point on having everyone as capable as the hero kind of undermines the hero's own position.

SEGA not knowing how to handle it better does not prove your point. Lots of stories write characters on the same power level as the hero and handle it greatly. Shadow is suppose to rival Sonic in power down to his very concepts... just like how many other series have strong rivals. It is all up to how it is written in order for it to work or not... A hero shouldn't be better then everybody in most stories... because it is hard to not make that kinda thing extremely pandering and obnoxious.

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2 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The main issue is that the other characters' traits aren't treated as equally important.

That varies from character to character. Some aren't doing so well, sure, but as far as this thread's concerned, I think Tails has been contributing plenty.

33 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Not every character needs to be equally strong/good at fighting, I'll agree. But in a mainly action platforming series not being able to fight hardly at all doesn't work good outside of being NPCs unless there is something else that greatly covers for it. For Tails to ever being playable in future Sonic games then he needs to be able to fight at least half as well as Sonic. Otherwise they have to ignore the narrative fully in gameplay or keep Tails a NPC forever unless they make a Sonic RPG/whatever where other skills can come into play better.

Well, first I'd say that being an NPC isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'd think a lot of characters would be better served by being NPCs rather than having to fit them into a playable role. But I wouldn't expect that for Tails, so as far as him needing fighting skill goes...does he really? He needs comparable mechanics to other playable characters, sure, but combat usually isn't that big a part of Sonic gameplay, and a character's canonical abilities aren't necessarily the same as their gameplay mechanics. Like I said upthread, I don't think Tails was supposed to canonically be Sonic's equal in the classics even though his gameplay was the same. He's not as much of a fighter as Sonic, but that didn't prevent him from bopping a few robots when you were playing as him.

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21 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

but combat usually isn't that big a part of Sonic gameplay, and a character's canonical abilities aren't necessarily the same as their gameplay mechanics.

Normally just being able to spindash and bounce on top of enemies knocking them out counts in Sonic games as fighting abilities. That said... If they are so obessed with making him a inventor... then as a inventor Tails has also shown he can create weapons and use them similarly to the wispons the avatar uses and not limited to that either... what stops Tails from using mechs and other crazy machines like he did in Sonic Adventure-2? Simple... Sonic-Team are artificially making Sonic stronger by not allowing other characters to even use their canon personal skills to do anything meaningful outside of support.

 

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32 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

SEGA not knowing how to handle it better does not prove your point. Lots of stories write characters on the same power level as the hero and handle it greatly. Shadow is suppose to rival Sonic in power down to his very concepts... just like how many other series have strong rivals. It is all up to how it is written in order for it to work or not... A hero shouldn't be better then everybody in most stories... because it is hard to not make that kinda thing extremely pandering and obnoxious.

It depends on the story. Superman is strongest one in the Justice League, but that doesn't mean the rest of the team don't have their own contributions. Like you said, its more on Sonic Team than the characters themselves. But Shadow point is true; if Sonic & Shadow are truly supposed to be equals, why does Shadow have every ability that Sonic has and then his own on top of that? That right there disqualifies them from being true equals and it's something the series hasn't really addressed but rather just swept under the rug. 

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19 hours ago, -dan- said:

I also share the opinion that he did the wise thing in not trying to engage Infinite and the illusions in combat. His entire character is based around his intelligence, it would be an act of major foolishness to throw yourself into that situation, even more so when you just witnessed your best friend and idol fall victim to those same enemies. Considering Infinite's joy in emotional torture, it's very plausible that he let Tails escape just as he did with the Avatar. It would've been more poetic if the game went in that direction as Tails and the Avatar would then play an essential role in his defeat, making a major point that Infinite was set up to fail by his own arrogance.

Steering away from the main topic at hand - which is an interesting point as you can tell that there is something similar that's meant to be done with Tails in the main game, given the not so subtle "Tails has lost his mind" or something to that effect - I have to disagree hard with this point, as I feel this is one of the biggest moments harmed by the bad writing of the game, and also makes it incredibly more muddy in terms of it's actual intentions on how it wishes to portray Tails.

IF you were to take Forces as it's own self-narrative, you would have absolutely no inkling about what this game was trying to do with Tails, or even the effects of the world itself. Bar one incredibly unsubtle translated line, there's no actual distinct difference between Pre-Infinite Tails, and Post-Infinite Tails, and this is one of the biggest baddest areas of bad writing. 

If they really wanted to drive home how badly affected Tails was by what happened - we need to see what he's like before Eggman takes over. We need to get an idea of how capable Tails is before Infinite's attack so we can then truely see how badly scarred he is after it. The problem is the game absolutely fails in showing this aspect in the very scene you're talking about, where even before Infinite attacks, Tails is shown cowering in fear with a pack of other mobians from bog-standard Eggpawns of all things. You know those things that you literally blast through in later levels, or even if you played in previous games where Tails was very capable of dealing with them - he's now cowering in fear from no-more than about 10 of them slowly walking towards them whilst Eggman sits on in the background.

Better yet - if we run with the idea of not showing Tails going against the things he's established to have gone against before, and go with a Classic set-up, he doesn't even try to team-up with Sonic when he can see Sonic is clearly getting ganged up with by four different and powerful characters, and i absolutely refuse to believe that Tails of all characters would stand by, letting his best friend get absolutely obliterated whilst cowering like a standard Mobian.

It's one thing to realise when you're outmatched, but Tails couldn't have tried to air-lift Sonic out of the fight? Try to team up to even the odds, only for it to fail? Better yet - if any of that happened, it would've had the effect of showing how proactive a character Tails was before Eggman took over, and justified even further why he'd be totally destroyed six months later - because then it isn't just a case of witnessing Sonic get beaten, it's a case of Tails actively trying every single possible thing he could have done to aided Sonic, and still failing - likely meaning he'd blame himself for it.

Like literally all it would've taken is Tails fighting back some of the egg-pawns before Sonic drops in, or Tails trying to rescue Sonic mid-air, only to get countered by Infinite or something to show that Tails before the takeover was actually someone who had the will to fight, and then show how hard he fell after watching Sonic get beaten. As is, it's seriously one of the biggest failures of Sonic Team's attempted writing of this possible plot-thread because it doesn't show Tails before his fall, nor does it make it clear that this is what actually happened to him. There's little to no difference shown between Pre-defeat and post-defeat Tails because we saw Tails also cowering and hiding away against normal mooks before Chaos 0 even appeared, making it all the more confused.

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22 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That varies from character to character. Some aren't doing so well, sure, but as far as this thread's concerned, I think Tails has been contributing plenty.

 

I feel like given his role, Tails` contributions should have a bit more impact on the narrative in recent games. 

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29 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

It depends on the story. Superman is strongest one in the Justice League, but that doesn't mean the rest of the team don't have their own contributions. Like you said, its more on Sonic Team than the characters themselves. But Shadow point is true; if Sonic & Shadow are truly supposed to be equals, why does Shadow have every ability that Sonic has and then his own on top of that? That right there disqualifies them from being true equals and it's something the series hasn't really addressed but rather just swept under the rug. 

Well while I don't exactly agree with the people who say it... there is the fact many people who find Superman well... super boring because of the pure fact he is so stupidly OP and has to have forced weaknesses such as kryptonite in order to give some villains outside of the ones just as OP as him a fighting chance at all. 

Keeping Shadow dead I suppose would had solved his problem. =p

But jokes aside. I say normally the answer is that other things should keep him busy and for him to have his own villains and nonsense to fight where he can't always be around to help with Sonic's fights. Afterall one could also argue why doesn't Superman help out Batman far more often and other heroes in their cities? Besides the fact Superman has his own life and is unaware of stuff going on outside his city... he decides to mostly only help other heroes when they join together for much bigger problems because they can handle their own cities alone normally and he doesn't need to help them. With Shadow they just need to come up with better excuses for why he isn't always around to help... instead of just ignoring he exists like they typically do... One of the things fans were excited about when it comes to the idea of a war in Sonic is the idea of all the characters joining together to take down a huge evil army... not for Sonic and Sonic and random-guy to do it alone practically.

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37 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

That said... If they are so obessed with making him a inventor...

Ah yes they're "so obsessed" with, uh...one of the foundational elements of the character.

Quote

 what stops Tails from using mechs and other crazy machines like he did in Sonic Adventure-2? Simple... Sonic-Team are artificially making Sonic stronger by not allowing other characters to even use their canon personal skills to do anything meaningful outside of support.

I'm already tired of this conspiracy theory nonsense. Tails doesn't pull a mech out of his ass at every opportunity because, 1, people hated that he was stuck in a mech in SA2, and 2, the playable characters generally get to do the coolest stuff because they're who the player is most directly associated with. And it's not like that even stopped them from having Tails reprogram that machine in Lost World, trick the D6 into thinking he was under their control, and turning a blaster on them.

24 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I feel like given his role, Tails` contributions should have a bit more impact on the narrative in recent games. 

I find it hard to imagine Tails having any more of an impact on Lost World's story than he already does. And he's consistently been one of the most important NPC heroes in recent games.

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7 hours ago, Mayor D said:

 

Regarding Donkey Kong.

He probably just threw Omega at something or something at Omega, the shock of the impact shook something loose. Omega wakes up and is like "What happened?"

Kong be like: fixed ya mate.

That's actually not too far off. Omega was being mind controlled by Eggman, and while wrestling with Donkey Kong, he knocked a chip loose, freeing him.

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17 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm already tired of this conspiracy theory nonsense. Tails doesn't pull a mech out of his ass at every opportunity because, 1, people hated that he was stuck in a mech in SA2, and 2, the playable characters generally get to do the coolest stuff because they're who the player is most directly associated with. And it's not like that even stopped them from having Tails reprogram that machine in Lost World, trick the D6 into thinking he was under their control, and turning a blaster on them.

So you argue Tails doesn't need to be able to fight because he has other skills such as being a inventor that makes him a useful character in his own way... But at the same time you argue he is not allowed to use his inventor skills to make and use machines or weapons because... fans don't like that??? That kinda contradicts itself right there. In no way shape or form is that good writing. It is just a poor excuse to make him a lame NPC in a game series that barely cares about it's stories.

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1 minute ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

So you argue Tails doesn't need to be able to fight because he has other skills such as being a inventor that makes him a useful character in his own different way... But at the same time you argue he is not allowed to use his inventor skills to make and use machines or weapons because... fans don't like that??? Kinda contradicts each other right there.

Or, not, because I'm pointing out a specific thing that they tried that people didn't like, not negating all use of his intelligence and mechanical skill. I even pointed out how he used his brains to get himself out of a bad situation and turn the tables on the D6.

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Tails makes almost all of the important plays in Lost World and does plenty in Colors and Forces. This is objective. He has shown more competency and agency than most of the cast in the past 10 years of games. Even if you were to knock him in Forces for shriveling up in the face of things remember that the entire rest of the Sonic cast banned together for 6 months and basically got nothing accomplished. The worst thing I can think of is how him being so physically inactive feels odd. If they made him playable in any of these games not much would feel off.

You don't like him because he's not interesting as a character. Hes a function that moves the plot along, handles exposition, etc. Whenever they tried to break away from this it was unconvincing at best.

Tails has been one of the blandest takes on the 'tech guy' long before pontaff took over too so you can't even blame them. 

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12 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Or, not, because I'm pointing out a specific thing that they tried that people didn't like, not negating all use of his intelligence and mechanical skill. I even pointed out how he used his brains to get himself out of a bad situation and turn the tables on the D6.

Pretty sure nobody had problems with Tails using weapons & machines in Tails Adventure and in Sonic battle. Just one game with a single element done to a character that fans were only kinda unhappy about is not a good reason to throw him being to use his inventors to make himself a great hero out the window.

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2 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Pretty sure nobody had problems with Tails using weapons & machines in Tails Adventure and in Sonic battle. One game with a element done to a character that fans were only kinda unhappy about is not a good reason to throw him being to use his inventors to make himself a great hero out the window.

Christ man are you even reading my posts? I never said anything about throwing out all use of machines. I said a mech, specifically, is a proven bad idea.

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1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Steering away from the main topic at hand - which is an interesting point as you can tell that there is something similar that's meant to be done with Tails in the main game, given the not so subtle "Tails has lost his mind" or something to that effect - I have to disagree hard with this point, as I feel this is one of the biggest moments harmed by the bad writing of the game, and also makes it incredibly more muddy in terms of it's actual intentions on how it wishes to portray Tails.

IF you were to take Forces as it's own self-narrative, you would have absolutely no inkling about what this game was trying to do with Tails, or even the effects of the world itself. Bar one incredibly unsubtle translated line, there's no actual distinct difference between Pre-Infinite Tails, and Post-Infinite Tails, and this is one of the biggest baddest areas of bad writing. 

Oops, not sure if I made this clear at first, best to do so now since you quoted that specific part.

It's pretty easy to forget that the Tails cowering at faceless orb bots is the same scene in which Infinite and the illusions beat up Sonic. When I said "I also share the opinion that he did the wise thing in not trying to engage Infinite and the illusions in combat." I'm only talking about when they showed up, I agree that his character was hurt considerably when he was cowering at only Eggman and a couple of crappy looking robots. He's never shown Eggman fear before so why would he do it now? Even in his Adventure final boss, he was clearly scared but didn't physically show it. If that makes sense.

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33 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Christ man are you even reading my posts? I never said anything about throwing out all use of machines. I said a mech, specifically, is a proven bad idea.

Hmm maybe I misunderstood you. The debate on this topic is all over the place to me, and I can get confused when talking to multiple people. However I feel you focused to much on the mech line of my argument as it was more a mere example that he can use his inventions to do more then just support others. However unless Tails is playable... then does it really matter if they put him in a mech sometimes now in the games where he is a NPC? Not sure fans would complain at that point... however him using a mech doesn't matter to me and can live without it... i'd more like to see him do things like in Sonic battle where he pulls a spring punching glove out and other gizmos to fight or other stuff.

Anyways apologies for anything I read wrong you were trying to say.

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Well either way it seems people want him more active anyways considering all the posts on Mania Adventure videos with Tails in them comment on why isn't he like this all the time. You get pretty much everything anyone could want without even a word spoken. Let's see.

-Childish wonder in his starry eyes upon seeing Sonic. Genuine giddiness and excitement.

-Tech savy upon introduction while fixing the plane and using the device Sonic handed him. As well as end game tech savy helping to save the day

-Doesn't always agree with Sonic ala his rashness in episode 2 where Sonic gets punted back to him upon running ahead. As well as face palming when Sonic tries to fight Super Metal head on when Tails thought it was a bad idea.

-Kind and not a dick what with not laughing at Sonic while he's down or going something like "I told you so". But instead showing concern, then opening a hand to offer to help his pal in episode 2

-Combat competent as he teams with Sonic as well as shows off a combo move with him. Has no problem fighting or getting beaten up if it happens. Which it does to everyone by Metal Sonic.

 

And that's just a handful of things. All with a very positive response, unlike the last 10 years or so...and arguably longer. I hear nothing but people going on about how this is perfect. This captures everything on a basic understanding. Covers pretty much the basis and weaknesses of other incarnations. Not boring exposition, not a yes man, not a coward, still cute/humble/kind, still intelligent without compensating all activeness, childlike wonder, etc. It's everything. All the pieces you could want are right there.

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2 hours ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Well while I don't exactly agree with the people who say it... there is the fact many people who find Superman well... super boring because of the pure fact he is so stupidly OP and has to have forced weaknesses such as kryptonite in order to give some villains outside of the ones just as OP as him a fighting chance at all. 

Keeping Shadow dead I suppose would had solved his problem. =p

But jokes aside. I say normally the answer is that other things should keep him busy and for him to have his own villains and nonsense to fight where he can't always be around to help with Sonic's fights. Afterall one could also argue why doesn't Superman help out Batman far more often and other heroes in their cities? Besides the fact Superman has his own life and is unaware of stuff going on outside his city... he decides to mostly only help other heroes when they join together for much bigger problems because they can handle their own cities alone normally and he doesn't need to help them. With Shadow they just need to come up with better excuses for why he isn't always around to help... instead of just ignoring he exists like they typically do... One of the things fans were excited about when it comes to the idea of a war in Sonic is the idea of all the characters joining together to take down a huge evil army... not for Sonic and Sonic and random-guy to do it alone practically.

Or...maybe they downplay Shadow;s other abilities? The same way they've downplayed Tails` role as a primary hero? Like I said, not every character needs to be a big hero and take on big threats. That's why someone like Sonic is the hero, and why the others rely on him. I'm not saying everyone needs to be useless without him like they've been, but there's such a thing as having too many characters. 

 

1 hour ago, dbzfan7 said:

Well either way it seems people want him more active anyways considering all the posts on Mania Adventure videos with Tails in them comment on why isn't he like this all the time. You get pretty much everything anyone could want without even a word spoken. Let's see.

-Childish wonder in his starry eyes upon seeing Sonic. Genuine giddiness and excitement.

-Tech savy upon introduction while fixing the plane and using the device Sonic handed him. As well as end game tech savy helping to save the day

-Doesn't always agree with Sonic ala his rashness in episode 2 where Sonic gets punted back to him upon running ahead. As well as face palming when Sonic tries to fight Super Metal head on when Tails thought it was a bad idea.

-Kind and not a dick what with not laughing at Sonic while he's down or going something like "I told you so". But instead showing concern, then opening a hand to offer to help his pal in episode 2

-Combat competent as he teams with Sonic as well as shows off a combo move with him. Has no problem fighting or getting beaten up if it happens. Which it does to everyone by Metal Sonic.

 

And that's just a handful of things. All with a very positive response, unlike the last 10 years or so...and arguably longer. I hear nothing but people going on about how this is perfect. This captures everything on a basic understanding. Covers pretty much the basis and weaknesses of other incarnations. Not boring exposition, not a yes man, not a coward, still cute/humble/kind, still intelligent without compensating all activeness, childlike wonder, etc. It's everything. All the pieces you could want are right there.

Mania is good, but it also doesn't do anything new with him either that we didn't already know. The reason people like it is because we've gotten tired of how bland and mishanled he's been in the Modern games. Whenever writers try to do anything new with him, it falls flat.

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6 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Mania is good, but it also doesn't do anything new with him either that we didn't already know. The reason people like it is because we've gotten tired of how bland and mishanled he's been in the Modern games. Whenever writers try to do anything new with him, it falls flat.

Yes but the point is it does everything right in the span of like 5 minutes without even uttering a word, where as games can't do crap with even an hours worth or more. It's that damn easy, and yet somehow it's so hard to be achieved elsewhere for some reason.

It doesn't do anything new, except for excel at showing exactly what people wanted from the character in the first place. It addresses every negative concern for the past decade. Not to mention it's not about trying to do something NEW. It's about getting the character right first. Doing something new with crap is just flinging a turd at something else, hoping it sticks. Of course it won't. The roots suck, so everything sucks.

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