So.... Is Tails Suffering From Depression In Sonic Forces?

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

Yes but the point is it does everything right in the span of like 5 minutes without even uttering a word, where as games can't do crap with even an hours worth or more. It's that damn easy, and yet somehow it's so hard to be achieved elsewhere for some reason.

It doesn't do anything new, except for excel at showing exactly what people wanted from the character in the first place. It addresses every negative concern for the past decade. Not to mention it's not about trying to do something NEW. It's about getting the character right first. Doing something new with crap is just flinging a turd at something else, hoping it sticks. Of course it won't. The roots suck, so everything sucks.

As @Wraith said though, Tails has been bad long before Pontac or Graff started writing him. Its not a matter of him getting worse, it's just a matter of the ways they've been using him have been boring, bland, and not very interesting.

Yes, Mania is an improvement in showing him in a more positive light, but like I said,  it's not covering any ground we haven't seen with the character either before. Like I said, it's nice but mainly because people have hated how he's been treated in the Modern games.

 

To make it clear, if we just got Mania Tails for a few years, we'd eventually get tired of that too. Remember, people initially LIKED Tails in Colors. It was only later on when people turned against him.

[dbzfan7]

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

As @Wraith said though, Tails has been bad long before Pontac or Graff started writing him. Its not a matter of him getting worse, it's just a matter of the ways they've been using him have been boring, bland, and not very interesting.

Yes, Mania is an improvement in showing him in a more positive light, but like I said,  it's not covering any ground we haven't seen with the character either before. Like I said, it's nice but mainly because people have hated how he's been treated in the Modern games.

 

To make it clear, if we just got Mania Tails for a few years, we'd eventually get tired of that too. Remember, people initially LIKED Tails in Colors. It was only later on when people turned against him.

I mentioned it'd been a decade or arguably more. I'm aware he's had issues even before Pontac of Graff came along. This is missing the point I'm trying to make. You have a basis and ground start, before adding on and evolving/subtly changing things. My point for Mania Tails is not this is all he has to be, it's this is what he should be as a basis. This is the figure where you start, and then add to. Mania Tails is the perfect core.

Even then too be honest I'm so sure people would. I mean we have simple characters like Mario and Luigi, Donkey Kong, Link, etc. Heck pretty much any nintendo character. Yet I don't often hear at least from the majority of people getting sick of them. They mostly stay the same, especially Mario. I do hear a boring Link persay, though he's always been a surrogate character.

The reason things get worse or random is because there is no basis or strong core for most of the characters. Without having one established characters are all over the place. Sonic is probably the most massive example of his character being all over the place in what he is. Because he has no core. Mania has given the opportunity to establish itself as the core blueprint everyone starts on, and then adds to when writing for Modern.

That's the theme I'm trying to hammer in. Not Mania Tails is amazing and should always be this, but he's the starting point from where we should go off from now on. Otherwise we'll get another random core change again.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

40 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Or...maybe they downplay Shadow;s other abilities? The same way they've downplayed Tails` role as a primary hero? Like I said, not every character needs to be a big hero and take on big threats. That's why someone like Sonic is the hero, and why the others rely on him. I'm not saying everyone needs to be useless without him like they've been, but there's such a thing as having too many characters.

Sure not all of them need to be big heroes, but I simply don't agree with you when it comes to downgrading characters and that Sonic should be the one to take care of all the big problems. And to be frank you are not going to get me to agree to that idea regardless of what you say because I hate it down to the very concept and see it as a big problem on this series and often other series when they do it.

[Shadowlax]

3 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

It depends on the story. Superman is strongest one in the Justice League, but that doesn't mean the rest of the team don't have their own contributions. Like you said, its more on Sonic Team than the characters themselves. But Shadow point is true; if Sonic & Shadow are truly supposed to be equals, why does Shadow have every ability that Sonic has and then his own on top of that? That right there disqualifies them from being true equals and it's something the series hasn't really addressed but rather just swept under the rug. 

 

This is actually a really bad example, because he is not the strongest person in the justice league there are a bunch of people who are stronger than him and some he's actively afraid of like martian man hunter. And that shows how you can have others who are way stronger than the " main guy " . And they are all " main guys " because they let them do their own shit and fight their own threats which is actually the issue with sonic. Along with the other reason this example is bad

Batman is problably the main guy in the JL or him in combination with WW and Supes, so its really really bad example. And shows that sonic's just kinda bad at handling characters

So this is a bad example and your whole argument is built on a really bad example

Joke characters like plastic man could body the shit out of superman

PLASTIC MAN

[Kuzu]

16 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Sure not all of them need to be big heroes, but I simply don't agree with you when it comes to downgrading characters and that Sonic should be the one to take care of all the big problems. And to be frank you are not going to get me to agree to that idea regardless of what you say because I hate it down to the very concept and see it as a big problem on this series and often other series when they do it.

But I never said that though? I literally said that not everybody has to be useless without him. Everyone can have something they contribute if the writers actually gave a damn. Sonic is the one who takes on all of the big threats because he has the power and headstrong attitude to be able to, but that doesn't mean he's omnipotent. He wouldn't have been able to understand the Wisps without Tails, and he would have never been able to repair Eggman's machine without Tails as well. Those are both crucial things that Sonic himself could not do.

 

So I'll say this again in big bold letters so you'll get it.  I AM NOT SAYING EVERYBODY BUT SONIC HAS TO BE USELESS, I AM SAYING THAT NOT EVERYBODY SHOULD BE AS CAPABLE AS HIM AND THAT THEY HAVE THEIR OWN TRAITS THEY CAN BRING TO THE PLOT.

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

This is actually a really bad example, because he is not the strongest person in the justice league there are a bunch of people who are stronger than him and some he's actively afraid of like martian man hunter. And that shows how you can have others who are way stronger than the " main guy " .

So this is a bad example and your whole argument is built on a really bad example

Joke characters like plastic man could body the shit out of superman

PLASTIC MAN

 

Oh my god, you took my point and then turned it into something else, wonderful. Dude, I'm going purely on physical prowess alone, happy? I'm not here to make explain DC lore, I'm trying to make a point. 

[Shadowlax]

6 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

But I never said that though? I literally said that not everybody has to be useless without him. Everyone can have something they contribute if the writers actually gave a damn. Sonic is the one who takes on all of the big threats because he has the power and headstrong attitude to be able to, but that doesn't mean he's omnipotent. He wouldn't have been able to understand the Wisps without Tails, and he would have never been able to repair Eggman's machine without Tails as well. Those are both crucial things that Sonic himself could not do.

And shadow in this hypothetical scenario contributes by being a super powerful being who is probably stronger than the protagonist who they can call in for help when he's not doing his own thing.

Like martian man hunter. They don't have to downplay anything they literally only have to write it better

Quote

 

So I'll say this again in big bold letters so you'll get it.  I AM NOT SAYING EVERYBODY BUT SONIC HAS TO BE USELESS, I AM SAYING THAT NOT EVERYBODY SHOULD BE AS CAPABLE AS HIM AND THAT THEY HAVE THEIR OWN TRAITS THEY CAN BRING TO THE PLOT.

 

They already have that.

Quote

 

 

Oh my god, you took my point and then turned it into something else, wonderful. Dude, I'm going purely on physical prowess alone, happy? I'm not here to make explain DC lore, I'm trying to make a point. 

But your point is bad because in doesn't work on a fundamental level because there are also characters who are way stronger than super man and also take on huge threats, and they do not need to down play their powers.

And its also really bad because they have been positioning Batman as the main guy of the JL for years , and everyone is stronger and complimenting him. So it makes your point not work on two levels, because the main JL guy has people around him who are not only physically stronger than actively take on their own gigantic threats. And you might say " Well batman's smart " people on the JL smarter than batman. Mr. Terrific for example. Heck Robin 3 , Tim Drake is smarter than batman.

Your example sucks and proves the exact opposite

[Kuzu]

38 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

I mentioned it'd been a decade or arguably more. I'm aware he's had issues even before Pontac of Graff came along. This is missing the point I'm trying to make. You have a basis and ground start, before adding on and evolving/subtly changing things. My point for Mania Tails is not this is all he has to be, it's this is what he should be as a basis. This is the figure where you start, and then add to. Mania Tails is the perfect core.

Even then too be honest I'm so sure people would. I mean we have simple characters like Mario and Luigi, Donkey Kong, Link, etc. Heck pretty much any nintendo character. Yet I don't often hear at least from the majority of people getting sick of them. They mostly stay the same, especially Mario. I do hear a boring Link persay, though he's always been a surrogate character.

The reason things get worse or random is because there is no basis or strong core for most of the characters. Without having one established characters are all over the place. Sonic is probably the most massive example of his character being all over the place in what he is. Because he has no core. Mania has given the opportunity to establish itself as the core blueprint everyone starts on, and then adds to when writing for Modern.

That's the theme I'm trying to hammer in. Not Mania Tails is amazing and should always be this, but he's the starting point from where we should go off from now on. Otherwise we'll get another random core change again.

Sonic Colors established a pretty good base to go off of, and it was something people actually liked. The writers suck though, so things eventually went to shit. The same thing would happen again even with this new core if we don't get better writers. If they keep playing the same tropes over and over, the audience will get bored. 

Nintendo doesn't have that issue because their games have no greater focus on narrative or plot like Sonic does, so there's no expectation there on that. Sonic however goes out of it's way of giving it's cast defined personalities and traits, but does nothing with them, hence why the bad writing sticks out a lot more.

Without better writers, history is likely to repeat itself. 

8 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

And shadow in this hypothetical scenario contributes by being a super powerful being who is probably stronger than the protagonist who they can call in for help when he's not doing his own thing.

Like martian man hunter. They don't have to downplay anything they literally only have to write it better

They already have that.

But your point is bad because in doesn't work on a fundamental level because there are also characters who are way stronger than super man and also take on huge threats, and they do not need to down play their powers.

And its also really bad because they have been positioning Batman as the main guy of the JL for years , and everyone is stronger and complimenting him. So it makes your point not work on two levels, because the main JL guy has people around him who are not only physically stronger than actively take on their own gigantic threats. And you might say " Well batman's smart " people on the JL smarter than batman. Mr. Terrific for example. Heck Robin 3 , Tim Drake is smarter than batman.

Your example sucks and proves the exact opposite

That's nice, I don't care about them though and you're still missing my point.

I do not care if there are characters stronger than Superman, no shit, I already know that. But the average person knows Supes is the strongest and so that's my example because this isn't a DC forum, it's a Sonic forum.

If you know there are stronger characters than Superman, good for you. The main thing I wanted to illustrate is that being the strongest person on a team does not invalidate everyone else on it. 

[dbzfan7]

1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Sonic Colors established a pretty good base to go off of, and it was something people actually liked. The writers suck though, so things eventually went to shit. The same thing would happen again even with this new core if we don't get better writers. If they keep playing the same tropes over and over, the audience will get bored. 

Nintendo doesn't have that issue because their games have no greater focus on narrative or plot like Sonic does, so there's no expectation there on that. Sonic however goes out of it's way of giving it's cast defined personalities and traits, but does nothing with them, hence why the bad writing sticks out a lot more.

Without better writers, history is likely to repeat itself. 

I disagree. I don't think Sonic colors had a good base at all. But I will agree it was something people did like at the time, and some still do. But I do agree writers as well as mandates are what going to help dictate things.

I disagree. Hell I think Sega may just stick with the classic, no talking, minimalist approach from now on because it's so well received. I could see them writing here like they do for Mario in that sense. Though who knows, they've thrown out gold mines for experimentation or turds before.

Tru dat.....*Pukes*

[Shadowlax]

10 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

That's nice, I don't care about them though and you're still missing my point.

I do not care if there are characters stronger than Superman, no shit, I already know that. But the average person knows Supes is the strongest and so that's my example because this isn't a DC forum where I'm going to argue about power levels.

If you know there are stronger characters than Superman, good for you. The main thing I wanted to illustrate is that being the strongest person on a team does not invalidate everyone else on it. 

Ok, i'm gonna say this in this nicest way? That is bullshit and you know it.

Your original point was them downplaying characters, shadow for example so sonic could be the one who faces big threats using super man as an example. My response is , they don't downplay other characters for superman there are other characters stronger than superman, this type of writing of characters can be balanced fine. Then I bring up , the other issue with our point, other characters fight gigantic threats with out superman.  Then I bring up the other issue with your point, superman isn't the leader of the justice league, batman is which just throws that entire point you had out of the window, because the whole point is that he is the weakest of everyone but what he does compliments everyone.

Do not turn around and make it about everyone knows, that's bullshit and you know it. It was never about that, you have an idea that sonic needs to be the strongest for whatever reason. And the example you used failed on because it doesn't even work and proves that sonic does not need to be that. And heck , your everyone knows example doesn't work because I had playground arguments about batman and wonder woman being able to beat super man. So even a lot of general audiences don't think  the cop out justification for your argument you just used.

You made a bad argument, your example proved the exact opposite of your point. And it is bullshit for you try and change what it is about because I brought up why your example does not work.

Edit: Exatra: You know the character they actually downplayed in your example for years, SUPERMAN. They have been weakening superman for years. So many levels your example just does not work. And it is crap to try and make it about what general audiences think because that does not matter to your point

[StaticMania]

The stakes don't even have to be too high. There just needs to be more going on in general.

In order for other character's actual skills and traits to matter, just give us scenarios where they actually can be useful.

[Kuzu]

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Ok, i'm gonna say this in this nicest way? That is bullshit and you know it.

Your original point was them downplaying characters, shadow for example so sonic could be the one who faces big threats using super man as an example. My response is , they don't downplay other characters for superman there are other characters stronger than superman, this type of writing of characters can be balanced fine. Then I bring up , the other issue with our point, other characters fight gigantic threats with out superman.  Then I bring up the other issue with your point, superman isn't the leader of the justice league, batman is which just throws that entire point you had out of the window, because the whole point is that he is the weakest of everyone but what he does compliments everyone.

Do not turn around and make it about everyone knows, that's bullshit and you know it. It was never about that, you have an idea that sonic needs to be the strongest for whatever reason. And the example you used failed on because it doesn't even work and proves that sonic does not need to be that. And heck , your everyone knows example doesn't work because I had playground arguments about batman and wonder woman being able to beat super man. So even a lot of general audiences don't think  the cop out justification for your argument you just used.

You made a bad argument, your example proved the exact opposite of your point. And it is bullshit for you try and change what it is about because I brought up why your example does not work.

Edit: Exatra: You know the character they actually downplayed in your example for years, SUPERMAN. They have been weakening superman for years. So many levels your example just does not work. And it is crap to try and make it about what general audiences think because that does not matter to your point

So some advice, try getting the context of an argument before you decide to jump in to make your point; because if you did that, you'd know the Superman example was not me trying to justify one character being powerful and was the exact opposite of that and I was explaining how Supes being powerful doesn't invalidate the other characters on the JL. Nowhere did I say that Supes or Sonic need to be all powerful and better than everybody, but illustrating how two characters with similar abilities but one having more than the other kind of makes the other look bad inherently. 

 

4 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

It depends on the story. Superman is strongest one in the Justice League, but that doesn't mean the rest of the team don't have their own contributions. Like you said, its more on Sonic Team than the characters themselves. But Shadow point is true; if Sonic & Shadow are truly supposed to be equals, why does Shadow have every ability that Sonic has and then his own on top of that? That right there disqualifies them from being true equals and it's something the series hasn't really addressed but rather just swept under the rug. 

 

 

[Scape]

23 hours ago, -dan- said:

On a side note, I wish the localisation didn't state that Sonic was "being tortured" while in captivity. It was such a throw away line, but has major implications on Eggman as a character. Though I suppose forcing Sonic to watch his victory could be considered a type of torture, but I'm going off topic.

For Sonic, "torture" could be anything as banal as just being held in that cell

[Shadowlax]

6 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

So some advice, try getting the context of an argument before you decide to jump in to make your point; because if you did that, you'd know the Superman example was not me trying to justify one character being powerful and was the exact opposite of that and I was explaining how Supes being powerful doesn't invalidate the other characters on the JL. Nowhere did I say that Supes or Sonic need to be all powerful and better than everybody, but illustrating how two characters with similar abilities but one having more than the other kind of makes the other look bad inherently.

I saw that. I think I may have included that in my original response.

And my response was. Super man example doesn't work because the other characters as so capable that it can't, you use the example of them complimenting him, they don't do that. A lot of them have similar if not same powers supes have if not more powerful versions of some of those powers.

So supes being powerful doesn't invalidate the other characters, because a lot of the other characters are also really powerful and are allowed to be that way and be their own characters. This isn't to mention again, supes isn't the lead JL guy its batman which speaks to that even more.

So some advice, think about the thing you are comparing something to before you do it. Because if your comparison is built on ill-informed opinions and faulty logic it kind of falls apart

[Kuzu]

12 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I saw that. I think I may have included that in my original response.

And my response was. Super man example doesn't work because the other characters as so capable that it can't, you use the example of them complimenting him, they don't do that. A lot of them have similar if not same powers supes have if not more powerful versions of some of those powers.

So supes being powerful doesn't invalidate the other characters, because a lot of the other characters are also really powerful and are allowed to be that way and be their own characters. This isn't to mention again, supes isn't the lead JL guy its batman which speaks to that even more.

So some advice, think about the thing you are comparing something to before you do it. Because if your comparison is built on ill-informed opinions and faulty logic it kind of falls apart

Dude, you're arguing about nothing lol. All you did was just restate my point on how other characters can contribute things even if they aren't as strong as one person. So I don't know why you're trying so hard to "prove me wrong" about something I'm not trying to prove in the first place. Ok...I got some facts wrong, but that's literally beside the point I was trying to make. 

[Shadowlax]

8 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Dude, you're arguing about nothing lol. All you did was just restate my point on how other characters can contribute things even if they aren't as strong as one person. So I don't know why you're trying so hard to "prove me wrong" about something I'm not trying to prove in the first place. Ok...I got some facts wrong, but that's literally beside the point I was trying to make. 

The facts you got wrong are why the point doesn't work. There are characters stronger than that one person, and that one person isn't the main guy in a lot of scenarios, its batman . Which was kind of your point.  Your whole point is " Well they might not be as strong as that one guy but they aren't nothing " . But  they aren't nothing and sometimes stronger than that guy and do things by themselves. There are characters who are just as and are even more capable of taking out threats than that one guy and are allowed to be that way. And some of them are known characters too.

Your argument proves that the issue isn't the cast is to large , that the cast is concentrated in one area. 

Like you can't make a comparison, get called out that the comparison is wack and then go " So I got some details wrong " the details is what the comparison is built on in the first place, and is your foundation is faulty your opinions are just gonna fall apart dude.

This was a really bad example. You aren't a worse person for it, we all fuck up sometimes, this is just a really bad example

[Kuzu]

9 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

The facts you got wrong are why the point doesn't work. There are characters stronger than that one person, and that one person isn't the main guy in a lot of scenarios, its batman . Which was kind of your point.  Your whole point is " Well they might not be as strong as that one guy but they aren't nothing " . But  they aren't nothing and sometimes stronger than that guy and do things by themselves.

Your argument proves that the issue isn't the cast is to large , that the cast is concentrated in one area. 

Like you can't make a comparison, get called out that the comparison is wack and then go " So I got some details wrong " the details is what the comparison is built on in the first place, and is your foundation is faulty your opinions are just gonna fall apart dude.

This was a really bad example. You aren't a worse person for it, we all fuck up sometimes, this is just a really bad example

I'm getting super tired of this. 

The bolded was my point, that's it. Nothing more. Anything you added to that is completely on you and I'm kind of tired of dealing with this now.  So if I'm wrong...fine, Have a nice day dude. 

[Shadowlax]

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I'm getting super tired of this. 

The bolded was my point, that's it. Nothing more.

But they are as strong as the guy, sometimes stronger.

Which is my point, that point is built off of bad information. Your original point

Quote

Or...maybe they downplay Shadow;s other abilities? The same way they've downplayed Tails` role as a primary hero?

Doesn't have to happen, because... there are just people stronger than superman and that's fine? Superman being strong is a thing but its not the reason why he's superman. He's super man because of who he is. Him being strong is just apart of being super man, and he's not even the strongest guy.

[dbzfan7]

I kinda see what he's going at. Like take Mario, who is usually depicted as the all around type. There's always people faster, stronger, etc, but not completely better than who he is. Like Luigi tends to be faster and better at jumping. Jumping is like Mario's number 1 thing, and he's not even the best at it.

Though I already said I didn't want Tails to be Sonic's 1 to 1 equal as it robs us of his coming of age story. He shouldn't be that good til they tell a story where's he's older. I think what's most important to set people apart is who they are as people more than anything else. I want Tails to earn that status in a story, not be given it immediately. I'd think it'd be really neat if he sticks around with Sonic, but also learns from whoever else Sonic is with. So he'd take notes on other heroes.

If we go by Sonic equals those would be Shadow, Knuckles, Blaze, Silver, and Metal. Competency wise they're all supposed to be roughly on the same level when it comes to combat. That's 6 in basically the same tier, and 5 are heroes. Though the problem of too many characters is pretty simply solved by not using them all at once all the time.

I love the idea of Sonic being the heroic mentor to Tails, who isn't really great as a teaching mentor. Kinda like how Genos asks Saitama about these things and he sure as shit isn't good at being a mentor. Tails goal is to be a hero like Sonic. To be as cool and grow up to be just like him. Something we should see more of from him. The sidekick. Hero in training.

[Shadowlax]

8 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

I kinda see what he's going at. Like take Mario, who is usually depicted as the all around type. There's always people faster, stronger, etc, but not completely better than who he is. Like Luigi tends to be faster and better at jumping. Jumping is like Mario's number 1 thing, and he's not even the best at it.

 

Here's my thing though with the mario example? I don't want sonic to be mario in that regard... I like there are things and people in the world beyond sonic... I dunno it makes the world feel large I guess? There are things outside of sonic that has shit going on that beyond him, and I think that's cool.  I would like if there were just beings way stronger than most of the cast who weren't evil... they just existed. Makes the world feel big you know? Like watchers and stuff

 

9 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

 

Though I already said I didn't want Tails to be Sonic's 1 to 1 equal as it robs us of his coming of age story. He shouldn't be that good til they tell a story where's he's older. I think what's most important to set people apart is who they are as people more than anything else. I want Tails to earn that status in a story, not be given it immediately. I'd think it'd be really neat if he sticks around with Sonic, but also learns from whoever else Sonic is with. So he'd take notes on other heroes.

I have an idea ... I guess? I would like a story where tails is much closer in age to sonic, like sonic is 17 and tails is 14 maybe 15 he's confident in himself but its more about him trying to become a hero in his own regard I guess? I dunno, always like the idea of an older sonic and tails dynamic

 

9 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

If we go by Sonic equals those would be Shadow, Knuckles, Blaze, Silver, and Metal. Competency wise they're all supposed to be roughly on the same level when it comes to combat. That's 6 in basically the same tier, and 5 are heroes. Though the problem of too many characters is pretty simply solved by not using them all at once all the time.

 

9 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

I love the idea of Sonic being the heroic mentor to Tails, who isn't really great as a teaching mentor. Kinda like how Genos asks Saitama about these things and he sure as shit isn't good at being a mentor. Tails goal is to be a hero like Sonic. To be as cool and grow up to be just like him. Something we should see more of from him. The sidekick. Hero in training.

I actually like the idea of tails.. sort of striking out to find other people to teach him? Like he maybe felt like he learned as much as he could from sonic and maybe finds someone else who can teach him whatever it is he needs to learn a different perspective I guess? I mean the only other smart guy is eggman so I guess you might have to make up another guy. But I like the idea of tails as depressing as this is finding out that he just wont ever be sonic and trying to be sonic isn't going to workout... so maybe figuring out who tails is , I guess?

I also just like the idea of some characters mentoring other characters in aspects that i dunno might improve their lives, some characters you wouldn't even expect

[Sonikku2k]

In Sonic Forces... yes I noticed a change in Tails' demeanour
I didn't really pay much attention to it but I don't think its depression, rather I think they are allowing his character to change or mature.

But its really subtle though so I don't try and overthink this.

[Dr. Detective]

On 1/29/2019 at 11:08 PM, Diogenes said:

As for the actual subject of the thread, I'm not sure if I'd call it capital-D Depression, I'm neither a doctor nor do I have depression myself so I'm not sure I'm comfortable reaching for specifics like that, but they were definitely starting to do a thing where Tails was seriously affected by all the shit that had gone down. It doesn't ultimately work because, as you said, they immediately drop it, but Tails cowering at Chaos is clearly not meant to be Sonic Team or Pontac and Graff or whoever declaring that Tails sucks now and is a dumb cowardly baby because they hate him. The kid watched his best friend get the shit kicked out of him to the point that he's presumed dead, and he's gone through six months of watching their worst enemy take over nearly the entire planet; it's only reasonable that that'd leave some marks. As much as there is to criticize about all this it's frustrating to see it get written off as just bad writing or some kind of anti-Tails bias, especially when so many people are also hoping for the series to take itself more seriously.

There's so little trust in what the "writers" for this game intended that most people probably just don't believe or consider this to be the intended direction. Everytime someone brings up the effects this war could have had on Tails, my response is usually "That's what I wanted it to be, but it wasn't." Because it gets dropped so fast, it comes off as them portraying him like a coward. No one's able to see the potential story of him being depressed presented within the game because it isn't there. At least not in a compacity thats reasonable or noticeable.

I wanted Tails to be playable instead of Classic Sonic so that the focus could have been on him dealing with the fallout of losing Sonic and coming to gripes with it before his eventual reunion. I think this depression angle could have been a great character study. I almost even allowed myself to anticipate it leading up to Forces release, I was so excited about the idea. It didn't happen though.

You kind of make it sound like people are dismissing the idea of Tails being mentally scarred by this war and considering it a bad thing but thats most likely not the case. I bet a lot of people would have been on board for that story had they stuck with it and followed through.

As it stands though, there's so little of what could have been done with him on that front within the actual game, that its not obvious at all (to most) that it isn't just them writing Tails like shit.

And regardless, it is them writing Tails like shit anyway. No matter what they intended, their intention didn't come through in the game. So, its written like shit as far as I'm concerned.

[___-_]

I'm a little late to the party, but yea, I enjoyed and agreed with a lot of points in the video.

I still feel however that even with Tails being hinted at having depression, that it completely misses the point of the character progression he was going through and doesn't justify some of his actions.

The point of Tails's progression was that he should handle his own problems and be his own person. With Sonic (and not even his Sonic at that) just coming back into the picture and him zapping back into shape just gives a huge slap in the face of what he learned from following Sonic growing up and what he realized on his own. The SA2 scene with Tails reacting to Sonic's apparent death that you showed is how I feel Forces Tails should react within a world without Sonic. The point being, he should always fight on no matter what, and always fight for his friends. For him to just give up on his friends is what really sits me the wrong way. The war having an effect on him is fine, but I don't think they way it went about it fits him.

Also, about the scene with Tails cowering from the robots in front of the civilians, although I do agree that it makes sense for Tails to sit back as he can't possibly stand up to all of Eggman's forces like Infinite, Metal Sonic and etc, I don't think that's the point why people really detested that scene. At least that's not my point when I first saw that scene anyway. It's the fact that Tails just can't find any solution of his own without Sonic's say is what drives me crazy. And it's worse when you realize that seems to be his whole shtick within the entire game.

It's also the fact that the situation was already at it's worst with Sonic down, and realistically, Eggman should've captured Tails right then and there too, so Tails should've dropped his communicator and fought for what he could since there should've been no way to escape with everyone there literally next to him and him screaming "Sonic!", giving away his position. Eggman not even bothering to capture Tails was plot induced stupidity in of itself since he wanted and even yelled at Infinite for not capturing Sonic later on in the game when Tails was literally in his sights alone within the first scene of the game anyway... so Tails somehow running away on his own and being depressed for 6 months just for it to be turned around in 10 seconds shouldn't have been an option for the story in the first place.

[Marco9966]

I love your ideas to improve the plot like having a progressive repair for Omega show the progressive rehabilitation of Tails! Would have been so much of a better game with little changes like these.

[DabigRG]

14 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

I love your ideas to improve the plot like having a progressive repair for Omega show the progressive rehabilitation of Tails! Would have been so much of a better game with little changes like these.

So much of a better story.

[Danj86]

3 hours ago, StriCNYN3 said:

It's also the fact that the situation was already at it's worst with Sonic down, and realistically, Eggman should've captured Tails right then and there too, so Tails should've dropped his communicator and fought for what he could since there should've been no way to escape with everyone there literally next to him and him screaming "Sonic!", giving away his position. Eggman not even bothering to capture Tails was plot induced stupidity in of itself since he wanted and even yelled at Infinite for not capturing Sonic later on in the game when Tails was literally in his sights alone within the first scene of the game anyway... so Tails somehow running away on his own and being depressed for 6 months just for it to be turned around in 10 seconds shouldn't have been an option for the story in the first place.

Remember, Infinite has a mind of his own and enjoys bringing upon his victims emotional turmoil. While I agree that Eggman probably didn't want Tails to escape too, it's certainly plausible that Infinite would let Tails escape to spread the word of Sonic's defeat and (More importantly to him, personally.) inform the masses of Infinite's strength.

A scene like that could've easily been in the game but...alas...

Doesn't change the fact that his depression was handled poorly. Even if it wasn't full blown Clinical Depression and just a general sadness over the events, he still shouldn't have recovered as quickly as he did. Yeah, a Sonic has shown up and you might be able to stop Eggman now, but he's still supposed to think that his Sonic is still dead….Right, Sonic Team?