So.... Is Tails Suffering From Depression In Sonic Forces?

[Marco9966]

When the fans can make a better story than Sonic Team...

Why don't we link this thread to them so they put in a little more effort?

[Badnik Mechanic]

3 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

When the fans can make a better story than Sonic Team...

Why don't we link this thread to them so they put in a little more effort?

My bank balance would rather they just hire me.

[___-_]

4 hours ago, -dan- said:

Remember, Infinite has a mind of his own and enjoys bringing upon his victims emotional turmoil. While I agree that Eggman probably didn't want Tails to escape too, it's certainly plausible that Infinite would let Tails escape to spread the word of Sonic's defeat and (More importantly to him, personally.) inform the masses of Infinite's strength.

A scene like that could've easily been in the game but...alas...

Doesn't change the fact that his depression was handled poorly. Even if it wasn't full blown Clinical Depression and just a general sadness over the events, he still shouldn't have recovered as quickly as he did. Yeah, a Sonic has shown up and you might be able to stop Eggman now, but he's still supposed to think that his Sonic is still dead….Right, Sonic Team?

True, true. Infinite does likes to play with his enemies and let them "tell the tale", but Eggman is a different story in this game. He literally yells at Infinite for letting Sonic go specifically because he didn't want any potential threats to ruin his plans. So him letting Tails go away when he was inches away from him with his whole entire army beside him is nonsense and the story shouldn't have gone the way it did in the first place.

Another point I don't get is, why would Tails think Sonic is dead for any of this psychological warfare to snow baIl if Eggman captured him? There's no way Eggman would have any use for Sonic's dead body for one thing. The fact That he captured him should give reason for Tails to have on going purpose to fight on to save him, because Eggman capturing Sonic implies he's still alive. But for some reason he thinks he's immediately dead and says nothing about what happened to his friends.... That first scene just doesn't add up to me. It's either Tails should've gotten captured with Sonic and the story branches off to something else entirely, or Tails holds on to his words to "save Sonic" since there's always a possibility that he's still alive, being captured and all.

[DabigRG]

15 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

True, true. Infinite does likes to play with his enemies and let them "tell the tale", but Eggman is a different story in this game. He literally yells at Infinite for letting Sonic go specifically because he didn't want any potential threats to ruin his plans. So him letting Tails go away when he was inches away from him with his whole entire army beside him is nonsense and the story shouldn't have gone the way it did in the first place.

To be fair, I think that was just as much on him having been winning the war all that time explicitly because he had taken Sonic out of the equation. Once Sonic had escaped and Infinite let him live after fighting him again, it was clear that that breech in security would almost certainly mess up his winning streak.

17 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

 

Another point I don't get is, why would Tails think Sonic is dead for any of this psychological warfare to snow baIl if Eggman captured him? There's no way Eggman would have any use for Sonic's dead body for one thing. The fact That he captured him should give reason for Tails to have on going purpose to fight on to save him, because Eggman capturing Sonic implies he's still alive. But for some reason he thinks he's immediately dead and says nothing about what happened to his friends.... That first scene just doesn't add up to me. It's either Tails should've gotten captured with Sonic and the story branches off to something else entirely, or Tails holds on to his words to "save Sonic" since there's always a possibility that he's still alive, being captured and all.

The other characters didn't know Sonic was still alive either--they assumed Eggman already had him executed, likely because Tails(in the Japanese version at least) never came back either.

[___-_]

@DabigRG

Idk, I feel like since Eggman was already making this huge push for world domination like he hasn't ever done before, with his entire army beside him, that he wouldn't leave any gaps right before the war even begins... He knows what Tails is capable of and is just as much a threat as Sonic is, so why let him go, especially when you're just going to complain about concerns about letting survivors go later on? He specifically made a jail cell for everyone within the Death Egg and he's not going to start off with the two biggest threats he knows?

And yea, it's a shame the rest of the gang didn't know, and that falls on Tails. If Tails would've simply told his friends he was captured, then at least one of them should've had the sense to realize he has to be still alive. I don't understand why Tails just stopped using his communicator for 6 months.

[Rowl]

This whole idea of Tails having a depression or losing his mind over Sonic's death was just another desperate attempted in making the story edgier than it really needed to be.   

[DabigRG]

28 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

@DabigRG

Idk, I feel like since Eggman was already making this huge push for world domination like he hasn't ever done before, with his entire army beside him, that he wouldn't leave any gaps right before the war even begins... He knows what Tails is capable of and is just as much a threat as Sonic is, so why let him go, especially when you're just going to complain about concerns about letting survivors go later on? He specifically made a jail cell for everyone within the Death Egg and he's not going to start off with the two biggest threats he knows?

Because plot.

Also, it's not like Eggman doesn't already have a habit of getting aggrandized and/or undervaluing the capabilities of anyone not named Sonic or Shadow(and sometimes even then)--especially Tails.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

6 minutes ago, Rowl said:

This whole idea of Tails having a depression or losing his mind over Sonic's death was just another desperate attempted making the story edgier than it really needed to be.   

Oh fuck off with this nonsense. Reacting in a traumatized fashion is a perfectly legitimate way to react to someone you know and love being apparently beaten to death. I don’t deny that Forces executed the idea poorly, but that’s an issue with execution, not the idea existing in the first place. I’m honestly goddamn sick of you holier than thou types constantly labeling anything with an even remotely dark or god forbid GENUINE reaction or behavior as being edgy simply because you’ve spent so many years apparently traumatized by 06 that you can’t stop trying to control the narrative in every damn aspect to avoid the shame. Yes, call out the failure of Forces to execute the idea properly, call out SEGA for not caring about making sure the quality was good, but enough of this “dark is inherently bad” nonsense already! It’s just a lazy way to avoid the real issue and frankly I’m bloody sick of it.

[___-_]

29 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Because plot.

Also, it's not like Eggman doesn't already have a habit of getting aggrandized and/or undervaluing the capabilities of anyone not named Sonic or Shadow(and sometimes even then)--especially Tails.

Well, with this game trying to sell to the audience making it seem Eggman means big business this time in Forces, I don't think that's what they were trying to convey. It's even worse when the context explaining how Tails escaped is conveniently missing, because the scene after Sonic is down literally fades to black with text giving exposition to how the war went down afterwards, not showing us what exactly happened between Tails being confronted by Eggman and the rest for any of this to snowball in the first place.

Regarding "plot reasons", say that in Sonic Forces, let's pretend that the only way for the plot to move on is for Tails to not get captured in the beginning. I feel that if Tails just simply said something along the lines in the following scene while fixing Omega "It's been far too long since I've heard a word from Sonic. He might just be.... but I can't give up!" Sonic wouldn't!" or some shit like that, then that'd alleviate so much. Even though Tails is capable of beating Chaos 0, he doesn't have to win against him or anything like that, especially since the war logically should take some toll on him if it was really going on for that long, but for him to just give up on everything without trying and for 6 months, screaming Sonic's name, especially when you realize all of this would've been fixed in a day if Tails had just used the communicator to track Eggman right when he realized Sonic was captured and he had the opportunity to escape with this information.... ugh it just doesn't sit well with me.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Rowl said:

This whole idea of Tails having a depression or losing his mind over Sonic's death was just another desperate attempted making the story edgier than it really needed to be.   

I mean if they had actually gone through with committing to the idea, and done it well, I don't think the outcome would have been something I would have given the stamp of "being edgy". It's perfectly reasonable and understandable that Tails would go through an extreme bout of sadness thinking his best-friend was dead for six months. Exploring that very real possibility isn't being edgy. If you do it with tact, it should work out fine.

Realistically, what's the alternative? He's just fine? He ignores it? He's happy? Fuck that guy, now I'm the main character?

[StaticMania]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

He's just fine? He ignores it? He's happy? Fuck that guy, now I'm the main character?

All of the above.

[Shadowlax]

Nah

The story is bad and tails is sad not because of depression, because it gets him out of the narrative and they don't think of tails as anything more than a side kick nowadays. That's it, they had to contort the narrative to remove characters from the story to make infinite look like a threat, when in reality anyone working competently or not missing would have ended it rather quickly. I enjoy the idea of the characters possibly going through something like that if it was written well it could be relatable to children who do feel that way , maybe communicate it to their parents, find some help. Its nice to have characters you can relate to, you know.

That said, this isn't that. Its a bad story and another attempt at someone trying to salvage the shit by trying attach more to it " Infinite's a meta joke " " Shadow was trapped in an illusion " " Silver couldn't hold infinite there " " There was no way sonic couldn't have broken out earlier " now " tails had depression " nah. Its bad narrative beats because their villain isn't much of anything, meant for a different project probably with different powers or at least using his powers more effectively and they had to get a game out of the door so they cobbled some levels together quickly came up with a story full of holes so they could at least try to make their badguy look cool and thats it

Ya'll really need to except that sometimes, there wasn't some grand unfinished plan, sometimes its just a fuck up

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

 

Ya'll really need to except that sometimes, there wasn't some grand unfinished plan, sometimes its just a fuck up

And/or maybe you can "except" that people can get creative with theories and/or personal thoughts of said fuck ups.

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

" Silver couldn't hold infinite there "

First time seeing that one.

[Shadowlax]

Just now, DabigRG said:

And/or maybe you can "except" that people can get creative with theories and/or personal thoughts of said fuck ups.

That's fine. I just see people making the argument that if they could told it better. I don't think that's the right way of going about it because I don't think the intent was to tell that type of story.

Everyone comes up with their own crazy theories to fix stuff, especially sonic games. I just think the discussion being framed as something they failed to do and I don't think that's honest and tries to push up a story that doesn't deserve it. This isn't something they failed to do , this is something they could have done and didn't see it and that's a different and probably much worse issue.

Failing to do something isn't great, but there is intent. But given the rest of the story i can't give it the benefit of the doubt that there was intent.

Just now, DabigRG said:

First time seeing that one.

I have seen that a bunch

" Silver forgot he had telekinesis "

 

[Kuzu]

20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

That's fine. I just see people making the argument that if they could told it better. I don't think that's the right way of going about it because I don't think the intent was to tell that type of story.

Everyone comes up with their own crazy theories to fix stuff, especially sonic games. I just think the discussion being framed as something they failed to do and I don't think that's honest and tries to push up a story that doesn't deserve it. This isn't something they failed to do , this is something they could have done and didn't see it and that's a different and probably much worse issue.

Failing to do something isn't great, but there is intent. But given the rest of the story i can't give it the benefit of the doubt that there was intent.

I have seen that a bunch

" Silver forgot he had telekinesis "

 

What is the "right" way then? Or rather, why are people suddenly not allowed to have their own theories and interpretations of things?

Its not like Hogfather was trying to defend the game, he spends most of the video openly admitting the game is bad and poorly done overall. So...I don't get the harm in trying to read deeper in to it for the sake of discussion. 

If we're just gonna shut down discussion because "its not right" then what's even the point of posting in this topic?

[DabigRG]

Oh fudge, what have I done?

[Shadowlax]

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

What is the "right" way then? Or rather, why are people suddenly not allowed to have their own theories and interpretations of things?

Its not like Hogfather said the game was good, he spends most of the video openly admitting the game is bad and poorly done overall. So...I don't get the harm in trying to read deeper in to it for the sake of discussion. 

If we're just gonna shut down discussion because "its not right" then what's even the point of posting in this topic?

I'm not trying to shut down discussion at all ? Sorry if I made it seem that way, I just felt like I dunno there's a weird desire to try and paint some of this game as a failure of ideas and intent rather than planing and execution. And I dunno and as a guy who suffers from depression himself... I dunno man just kinda seems icky to attach this really horrible thing that people deal with , to such a half assed incomplete story as a sort of  explanation?

That said, i'm not trying to dictate and shut down discussion. I'm not a mod nor did I tell anyone to stop discussing , I even said I liked the idea. And I don't think off th ewall of me to suggest that looking at it from an angle that this was intended gives way more credence to a narrative that doesn't really deserve that

That statement isn't telling you to stop, you could ignore me and move on with your lives

[Kuzu]

18 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I'm not trying to shut down discussion at all ? Sorry if I made it seem that way, I just felt like I dunno there's a weird desire to try and paint some of this game as a failure of ideas and intent rather than planing and execution. And I dunno and as a guy who suffers from depression himself... I dunno man just kinda seems icky to attach this really horrible thing that people deal with , to such a half assed incomplete story as a sort of  explanation?

That said, i'm not trying to dictate and shut down discussion. I'm not a mod nor did I tell anyone to stop discussing , I even said I liked the idea. And I don't think off th ewall of me to suggest that looking at it from an angle that this was intended gives way more credence to a narrative that doesn't really deserve that

That statement isn't telling you to stop, you could ignore me and move on with your lives

Why can't it be both?

[Shadowlax]

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Why can't it be both?

Because I , and again this is my opinion i'm not trying to shit down discussion , feel like there are more than enough cues in the narrative to just destroy that. Like if everyone else got these like unfinished stories and reasons for doing things weird, I would be on board with the idea.

But they don't... everyone else gets really half assed explanations, or no explanations in some cases for their roles or lack their of in the story. Its plain as day, they had to make thier bad guy look threatening, to that instead of...writing him using his powers in a way that's competent. Characters either vanish, stay in a room, or are widly incompetent to the point of just forgetting powers exist. They wrote a bad story to try and make infinite threatening and that's it really, I don't think its arguable. Tails isn't depressed, he's just mad incompetent because they need sonic to do the thing.

Part of writing or rather crafting narratives and worlds is getting people to believe and invest in your bullshit , and there's nothing that game to make believe it was even their intent in the first place.

Sonic team just kind of doesn't give much of a shit about tails, which sucks but its whatever

[Danj86]

13 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I'm not trying to shut down discussion at all ? Sorry if I made it seem that way, I just felt like I dunno there's a weird desire to try and paint some of this game as a failure of ideas and intent rather than planing and execution. And I dunno and as a guy who suffers from depression himself... I dunno man just kinda seems icky to attach this really horrible thing that people deal with , to such a half assed incomplete story as a sort of  explanation?

Interesting. So you are also very familiar with depression, it seems a large number of us are, sadly. But your uncomfortable discussing it's potential use in a poorly executed game. I've had my problems with depression for years, but it doesn't bother me to talk about the topic in any form. If anything, it makes the topic easier deal with when it's properly discussed.

This risks going way off topic but I think it's okay and actually really important to talk about depression. My friends here will know that this next statement is highly hypocritical for me, but I'm going to say it anyway. You should never keep your feelings hidden, even if it feels icky to talk about it. Things seem easier to deal with when you have support which can only be earned through speaking out. If that makes sense.

[Shadowlax]

20 minutes ago, -dan- said:

Interesting. So you are also very familiar with depression, it seems a large number of us are, sadly. But your uncomfortable discussing it's potential use in a poorly executed game. I've had my problems with depression for years, but it doesn't bother me to talk about the topic in any form. If anything, it makes the topic easier deal with when it's properly discussed.

This risks going way off topic but I think it's okay and actually really important to talk about depression. My friends here will know that this next statement is highly hypocritical for me, but I'm going to say it anyway. You should never keep your feelings hidden, even if it feels icky to talk about it. Things seem easier to deal with when you have support which can only be earned through speaking out. If that makes sense.

Oh goodness i'm not saying its not ok to talk about depression. If I didn't occasionally see a therapist I would be in a much worse place, depression and anxiety is some shit let me tell you.

Edit: Forget it, short version is, I don't think this story is worth all this but again, talk about whatever you want

[Danj86]

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Oh goodness i'm not saying its not ok to talk about depression. If I didn't occasionally see a therapist I would be in a much worse place, depression and anxiety is some shit let me tell you.

Oh, I think I understand now.

What your saying is that by adding a potentially deeper meaning to such a badly written game, it feels insulting and gives the game praise (Even though it's very minor.) that it doesn't deserve. Added insult that, it's a topic that deeply effects you too.

Does that sound right?

I'm not criticising you for thinking that way. It makes sense if I'm getting all the facts right. Just had a need to understand what you meant and thought perhaps it pointed to a larger problem. Thankfully, that wasn't the case.

[Shadowlax]

Just now, -dan- said:

Oh, I think I understand now.

What your saying is that by adding a potentially deeper meaning to such a badly written game, it feels insulting and gives the game praise (Even though it's very minor.) that it doesn't deserve. Added insult that, it's a topic that deeply effects you too.

 

Basically.

Just i want to make this clear, i'm not greatly offended by this. I'm not gonna swear of this site and this game. Its just like " Why? " to me. But again, if you all feel differently , you all want to discuss this. I was just stating my piece on it

[Sean]

7 hours ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Oh fuck off with this nonsense. Reacting in a traumatized fashion is a perfectly legitimate way to react to someone you know and love being apparently beaten to death. I don’t deny that Forces executed the idea poorly, but that’s an issue with execution, not the idea existing in the first place. I’m honestly goddamn sick of you holier than thou types constantly labeling anything with an even remotely dark or god forbid GENUINE reaction or behavior as being edgy simply because you’ve spent so many years apparently traumatized by 06 that you can’t stop trying to control the narrative in every damn aspect to avoid the shame. Yes, call out the failure of Forces to execute the idea properly, call out SEGA for not caring about making sure the quality was good, but enough of this “dark is inherently bad” nonsense already! It’s just a lazy way to avoid the real issue and frankly I’m bloody sick of it.

Calm the fuck down. You are seriously acting half your age right now. Any further shit-slinging will earn you a strike.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

11 hours ago, Sean said:

Calm the fuck down. You are seriously acting half your age right now. Any further shit-slinging will earn you a strike.

Sorry. I let my temper get the better of me at that moment.