What's the beef with Cream the Rabbit?

[Scritch the Cat]

1 hour ago, thumbs13 said:

I think the no cream thing is overblown, honestly. She appears in the mobile games, and was playable in the most recent Mario and Sonic game. She missed Forces and TSR, but both games were missing characters from the casts. She'll probably never have her Advance Glory days back, but she's still there.

.Like, did Omega fans think he was going to be retired because he was replaced by a generic robot in free riders and wasn't in Generations?

I for one dreaded every character would be thrown out given that infamous campaign for "Project Needlemouse".

[Maxtiis]

On 1/31/2019 at 5:27 PM, Polkadi~♪ said:

When it comes to Sonic the Hedgehog in journalism, I find it hard to trust anyone to give a fair opinion.

For me it's "When it comes to video games in journalism as a whole, I find it hard to trust anyone to give a fair opinion. But especially with Sonic."

Regardless, I like Cream for her being Amy's equivalent to Tails, just a friend and sidekick to work off of. I'm sure female Sonic fans probably enjoyed their little dynamic back when both characters actively appeared more in this franchise.

[Red Hot Jack]

10 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

I think the no cream thing is overblown, honestly. She appears in the mobile games, and was playable in the most recent Mario and Sonic game. She missed Forces and TSR, but both games were missing characters from the casts. She'll probably never have her Advance Glory days back, but she's still there.

.Like, did Omega fans think he was going to be retired because he was replaced by a generic robot in free riders and wasn't in Generations?

She does have only mobile roles so far though. Plus Rio 3DS only. Omega also similarly was "scrapped" for a period like Big, but eventually was brought back in Forces and TSR because Team Dark is prominent again. So never say never to a possible return. The thing is... Team Rose is a thing in TSR and Cream is the only original member missing. I would say this is a reason for her fans to be worried.

[Sonic Fan J]

To answer the OP, for me Cream just doesn't add the right things to what I expect out of a franchise with a nomadic main character always in search of his next adventure. I always see people going on about how she makes a great home base character, but to me Sonic doesn't have a home base. Each Sonic story is typically Sonic in a new location meeting new people and experiencing new things bar the characters who desire to be a part of his life showing up to partake in his adventures like Tails and Amy. But Cream has no desire to be a part of Sonic's life and his adventures beyond her relationship with Amy which has never really been fleshed out. So I guess my beef with Cream is more that she feels like a one off character in Sonic's story to me rather than a recurring character. Of course she isn't the only character I feel that way about and since I can think of ways to justify the other offenders I'm fairly positive I could eventual work something out with Cream with enough inspiration.

[Rowl]

To be honest... it is kinda hard to find a role for Cream in the Sonic series because she herself as a character is not really something that fits with the theme of the series.

1. She isn't one of the characters that are strongly connected with Sonic. She isn't a close friend or a rival of Sonic. Cream is more connected with Amy, a side character and as such closer to her than with Sonic. 

2. She isn't really a fighter and this series main cast consists mostly of characters that can fight or have some sort of special, supernatural ability. She is more written like a normal civilian. 

3. She lacks the edgy and cool factor that most of the characters have. Most characters in the Sonic Universe are hip, cool, radical dude, and dudettes with a super, special power or some other super, special, radical, hip ability which helps them to connect with the target demographic. Cream, on the other hand, is more of the complete opposite. She is sweet, polite and likes to do more quiet stuff like reading, shopping and drinking tea.

4. Also, unlike Big, she hasn't got her own meme, which is also the reason why many fans forget about her. 

So... yeah... Cream kinda has a very hard time right now. She is kinda in the same boat as Daisy and Waluigi. Outside of Party games, she has no purpose anymore in mainline games. 

[Marco9966]

She deserves to be on the main cast more than Silver and Blaze.

[StaticMania]

Because she's actually from the same timeline/dimension...otherwise she doesn't "deserve" anything.

[Scritch the Cat]

16 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

To answer the OP, for me Cream just doesn't add the right things to what I expect out of a franchise with a nomadic main character always in search of his next adventure. I always see people going on about how she makes a great home base character, but to me Sonic doesn't have a home base. Each Sonic story is typically Sonic in a new location meeting new people and experiencing new things bar the characters who desire to be a part of his life showing up to partake in his adventures like Tails and Amy. But Cream has no desire to be a part of Sonic's life and his adventures beyond her relationship with Amy which has never really been fleshed out. So I guess my beef with Cream is more that she feels like a one off character in Sonic's story to me rather than a recurring character. Of course she isn't the only character I feel that way about and since I can think of ways to justify the other offenders I'm fairly positive I could eventual work something out with Cream with enough inspiration.

For all that Sonic can be described as nomadic, I wouldn't say he searches for adventure so much as he follows Eggman around watching for him to try something evil again.  Granted, I'm just talking about game plots, but why shouldn't I?

All that said, I think that if they brought back chao gardens, Cream could be a helper character in there.  Many fans like the chao, Cream likes chao so she fits that role, and bringing both back would cater to the kawaii crowd, however marginal they are to Sonic's bottom line.

12 hours ago, Rowl said:

To be honest... it is kinda hard to find a role for Cream in the Sonic series because she herself as a character is not really something that fits with the rest theme of the series.

1. She isn't one of the characters that are strongly connected with Sonic. She isn't a close friend or a rival of Sonic. Cream is more connected with Amy, a side character and as such closer to her than with Sonic. 

2. She isn't really a fighter and this series main cast consists mostly of characters that can fight or have some sort of special, supernatural ability. She is more written like a normal civilian. 

3. She lacks the edgy and cool factor that most of the characters have. Most characters in the Sonic Universe are hip, coll, radical dudes and dudettes with a super, special power or some other super, special, radical, hip ability which helps them will with the target demographic. Cream, on the other hand, is more of the complete opposite. She is sweet, polite and likes to do more quiet stuff like reading, shopping and drinking tea.

4. Also unlike Big, she hasn't got her own meme, which is also the reason why many fans forget about her. 

So... yeah... Cream kinda has a very hard time right now. She is kinda in the same boat as Daisy and Waluigi. Outside of Party games, she has no purpose anymore in mainline games. 

I for one think Daisy would work fine in a Mario adventure, as it seems to fit her persona better than it fits those of Peach and Rosalina and they still got into Super Mario 3D World.  Meanwhile Waluigi wouldn't necessarily fit a Mario game, but he would fit Wario games just fine, so it's pretty strange that he doesn't get into more of them.

11 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

She deserves to be on the main cast more than Silver and Blaze.

 

11 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Because she's actually from the same timeline/dimension...otherwise she doesn't "deserve" anything.

Yeah; I'm taking StaticMania's side on this.  Traveling through time and/or alternate universes is so common in this series that we might as well treat it as we treat running at mach speeds--that is, characters in this series can do it for "Rule of Cool".  Shadow, Blaze, Silver, and now Classic Sonic keep coming back because they're considered cool; never mind what their original reasons for appearing were.  You may note that all of those characters debuted as co-stars to Sonic, who was designed to be cool, but for whatever designing a character to be kawaii instead of cool is worth in itself, Tails was essentially that and he sure ended up a lot better than Cream.  Arguably Amy was that, too.

Note that I'm not saying only cool characters belong in this series, or even only cool or cute characters.  Overall I love that in the Dreamcast era and even a bit in the "Dark Age", they expanded the playable cast to imply, in a sense, that all sorts of personalities are valid when it comes to adventures.  However, Cream is an outlier simply because her personality doesn't want to be valid in adventures.  It's not just that she dislikes fighting; it's that she doesn't have any interests or motives that would get her into such things.

[Edward850]

21 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

However, Cream is an outlier simply because her personality doesn't want to be valid in adventures. It's not just that she dislikes fighting; it's that she doesn't have any interests or motives that would get her into such things.

You sure? Sonic Rush and Chronicles do not give that impression. Not to mention the Archie comics while they were still running. From what I can tell, "but she was never really interested in adventuring" is only a recent opinion and I'm yet to see any concrete evidence to that in this thread, meanwhile her behaviour in the previously stated is a contradiction. 

[Sonic Fan J]

11 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

For all that Sonic can be described as nomadic, I wouldn't say he searches for adventure so much as he follows Eggman around watching for him to try something evil again.  Granted, I'm just talking about game plots, but why shouldn't I?

I disagree about that and here are some examples in the spoiler as to why so as to not distract from the thread

Spoiler

Sonic CD - visiting Never Lake to see Little Planet, bumps into Eggman by coincidence
Sonic 3 - checking out Angel Island in search of a new adventure, bumps into Eggman by coincidence
Sonic Adventure - Taking a break between adventures, is targeted by Eggman for Tails' Chaos Emerald
Sonic Adventure 2 - Is arrested by GUN and is ignorant of Eggman's activities, doesn't learn of Eggman's plot until Eggman's global announcement
Sonic Heroes - off on whatever adventure and has no clue of Eggman's plight, is invited to battle Eggman by Metal Sonic in disguise
Shadow the Hedgehog - Doesn't interact with Eggman at all before the true ending
Sonic 06 - Visiting Soleanna to see the Festival of the Sun, encounters Eggman when Eggman attempts to abduct Elise
Sonic Generations - celebrating his birthday with his friends, gets yanked out of spacetime by Eggman
Sonic Forces -  of on a run through Green Hill Zone, gets called to the city to confront Eggman by Tails.

These are all mainline games and if you notice there are not a lot of games missing, some of which I excluded though Sonic again is not actively following Eggman at the beginning in the Japanese manuals such as Sonic 1 and 2. The only mainline games where we start with Sonic engaged with Eggman are Sonic Unleashed (after the initial conflict Sonic is more concerned about putting the world together than fighting Eggman though so the conflict fizzles out pretty quick), Sonic Colors, and Sonic Lost World. An 11:3 ratio doesn't seem like Sonic is actively following Eggman around and keeping an eye on him. It looks more like for the sake of telling a story, of which this franchise focuses primarily on the stories where Sonic encounters Eggman, basic contrived coincidences are used to start things off. The primary thing is though, in most of these examples though Sonic starts in a totally different location implying that he is always going somewhere new for the most part regardless of Eggman or anyone else. It's supposed to also be part of why it's so hard for Amy to track him down as he is supposedly always on the move.

My disagreement aside though about your perspective of Sonic's adventuring style, both of our takes on Sonic present him always on the move, with your viewpoint specifically really clashing with involving Cream with him and his adventures due to her pacifistic tendencies. Regardless of our takes on Sonic his adventuring style simply clashes with that of Cream who lacks his adrenaline junkie tendencies making her hard to use as a regular recurring character on a Sonic focused story.

12 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

All that said, I think that if they brought back chao gardens, Cream could be a helper character in there.  Many fans like the chao, Cream likes chao so she fits that role, and bringing both back would cater to the kawaii crowd, however marginal they are to Sonic's bottom line.

This on the other hand I think would be a great use for her and gentleness. She loves chao, we know she enjoys adventure herself to some capacity, and chao gardens are pretty much linked everywhere so Sonic could easily help her tend to her chaos while adventuring and share his stories with her whenever he drops into a chao garden. To me that just plain works a lot better than having to tweak a story to include her if she was never needed for the concept of the story to unfold and considering her minimal investment in Sonic compared to characters like Tails and Amy who would follow him anywhere anyways.

-----

11 hours ago, Edward850 said:

You sure? Sonic Rush and Chronicles do not give that impression. Not to mention the Archie comics while they were still running. From what I can tell, "but she was never really interested in adventuring" is only a recent opinion and I'm yet to see any concrete evidence to that in this thread, meanwhile her behaviour in the previously stated is a contradiction. 

I think a lot of the problem here is in how SEGA is attempting to present the character. If it's possible to perceive her as uninterested in adventuring in spite of her going off on adventures in all of her primary appearances then that is on what SEGA is pushing, and considering the conspiracy theories abound of SEGA trying to erase her presence what better way than by making her seem like she doesn't want to be involved in the first place? Conspiracy theories aside though, something has obviously changed between her introduction and intended use and how SEGA presents her now to result in people having that opinion. It's a weird thing to since she takes care of chaos who would benefit from her going on adventures to find rare chao food and unique animals for chaos to learn from. She honestly has plenty of reasons to go adventuring but for whatever reason SEGA doesn't want her to be presented that way right now and there doesn't seem to be a sound reason as to why. Unfortunately that leaves room for lots of speculation and for vocal Cream detractors to fill in the gaps to sell their narratives.

[Kuzu]

Given that Sega pushed her as a main character back in the early 2000's, and nobody really cared much about her back then. I'm pretty sure Sega got the message that it's not worth their time to invest in Cream, so they just silently pushed her to the side and pretend like she doesn't exist. 

Cream's not inherently terrible but like....she never really had a niche and because of that, it was really hard to invest in her as a character to the audience. She was Amy's best friend but their dynamic never had much focus, even in more casual settings like Sonic X, Chao had stopped being relevant around that time so that's out, they tried to do something with her and Blaze but then she was swiftly replaced with Marine and her dynamic with Blaze is basically ignored. 

She never caught on, so Sega likely just did not see a point and they haven't given us a reason to care...so here we are. 

[Iko]

I really don't get all the critics toward this character.

I'm a fan of the Advance games, and Sonic Advance 2 made me like Cream. I'm not into stories or character development, I don't care much... I like her design and her gameplay (in the Advance games), and I like the idea of a character that represents the chao gardens (I have spent countless hours raising chao in SA2).

People say that she's "bland", she has no goal, but what do Mighty and Ray have to offer in that regard? Do people complain that Mighty and Ray have no goal?

There are other characters who are way more bland than her, one for all is Omega, who is obsessed over destroying all Eggman's robots and that's all what he does/is; he has a goal, but that's all he has. There is Silver who, in order to be implemented in a story, needs to be brought back from the future every time, with the exact same excuse that's incredibly boring and repetitive (other than being a rip-off of Trunks' story from Dragonball). Aside of having wacky designs (or at least, Vector), what makes the chaotix better than Cream story-wise? I have never read the comics and I only watched a few episodes of Sonic X, but in the games, they all the times feel shoehorned for no reason, and the fast paced adventures of Sonic don't really leave space for detective stories. They are occasionally said to be detectives, but their job has never been an important element in the story of a game, except maybe in heroes (it was the pretext for them to join the adventure); they are "just there" in a lot of games and nobody has ever complained about them. There are the Deadly 6, who are evil for the sake of it, and we don't know what they are, what their home world is and where it comes from, and what they want from Sonic/why they attack him and do the role of the bad guys.

But apparently, only Cream is a problem.

Honestly, I wish she would return some day, maybe even as a playable character.

I want to see development of her friendship with Blaze; I want to know more about the lore behind chao, and I'd like to see her meet Tikal (or her spirit, whatever she is); I want the return of GMerl/gemerl and more interaction between the robot and Cream (with implications that GMerl has part of the memories of Emerl or something); etc... there is so much that they left open with this character, and I hate the fact that everyone suggest that she should be removed from the series.

People say that she was nothing special gameplay-wise, but Sonic and Cream are the characters I have the most fun with when playing Sonic Advance 2. She allows you to stop flying with the attack button, and you can drop on the enemies bouncing on them; once you learn the trick, it becomes very fun and quite useful in some places/bossfights (but sadly this trick only works in Advance 2, because in 3 she doesn't bounce anymore). They just need to focus more on Cheese and less on flying like Tails; like, expand on what Cheese can do... Time ago, I suggested that Cheese could copy the traits from the animals released by destroyed badniks, giving some different passive skills to Cream... that's just an example. Give her some special skills based on jumping/hopping, inspired by the fact that she's a rabbit and real life rabbits walk by doing small hops (Sonic Forces Speed Battle kinda covered this with the bunny boost); and differentiate her fly from Tails' (i'd suggest to make it a multi-jump instead of an actual fly, maybe with auto-drop after each jump).

Or make her a Chao Garden character, that would work too.

[Kuzu]

24 minutes ago, Iko said:

I really don't get all the critics toward this character.

I'm a fan of the Advance games, and Sonic Advance 2 made me like Cream. I'm not into stories or character development, I don't care much... I like her design and her gameplay (in the Advance games), and I like the idea of a character that represents the chao gardens (I have spent countless hours raising chao in SA2).

People say that she's "bland", she has no goal, but what do Mighty and Ray have to offer in that regard? Do people complain that Mighty and Ray have no goal?

There are other characters who are way more bland than her, one for all is Omega, who is obsessed over destroying all Eggman's robots and that's all what he does/is; he has a goal, but that's all he has. There is Silver who, in order to be implemented in a story, needs to be brought back from the future every time, with the exact same excuse that's incredibly boring and repetitive (other than being a rip-off of Trunks' story from Dragonball). Aside of having wacky designs (or at least, Vector), what makes the chaotix better than Cream story-wise? I have never read the comics and I only watched a few episodes of Sonic X, but in the games, they all the times feel shoehorned for no reason, and the fast paced adventures of Sonic don't really leave space for detective stories. They are occasionally said to be detectives, but their job has never been an important element in the story of a game, except maybe in heroes (it was the pretext for them to join the adventure); they are "just there" in a lot of games and nobody has ever complained about them. There are the Deadly 6, who are evil for the sake of it, and we don't know what they are, what their home world is and where it comes from, and what they want from Sonic/why they attack him and do the role of the bad guys.

But apparently, only Cream is a problem.

Honestly, I wish she would return some day, maybe even as a playable character.

I want to see development of her friendship with Blaze; I want to know more about the lore behind chao, and I'd like to see her meet Tikal (or her spirit, whatever she is); I want the return of GMerl/gemerl and more interaction between the robot and Cream (with implications that GMerl has part of the memories of Emerl or something); etc... there is so much that they left open with this character, and I hate the fact that everyone suggest that she should be removed from the series.

People say that she was nothing special gameplay-wise, but Sonic and Cream are the characters I have the most fun with when playing Sonic Advance 2. She allows you to stop flying with the attack button, and you can drop on the enemies bouncing on them; once you learn the trick, it becomes very fun and quite useful in some places/bossfights (but sadly this trick only works in Advance 2, because in 3 she doesn't bounce anymore). They just need to focus more on Cheese and less on flying like Tails; like, expand on what Cheese can do... Time ago, I suggested that Cheese could copy the traits from the animals released by destroyed badniks, giving some different passive skills to Cream... that's just an example. Give her some special skills based on jumping/hopping, inspired by the fact that she's a rabbit and real life rabbits walk by doing small hops (Sonic Forces Speed Battle kinda covered this with the bunny boost); and differentiate her fly from Tails' (i'd suggest to make it a multi-jump instead of an actual fly, maybe with auto-drop after each jump).

Or make her a Chao Garden character, that would work too.

I don't really get why you feel the need to downplay other characters in order to justify your like for Cream. Or better, why do you care so much?

Some characters are more popular than others, sorry it's not Cream. But can we stop this insulting of other characters just because your favorite isn't popular?

[Diogenes]

27 minutes ago, Iko said:

But apparently, only Cream is a problem.

Dude plenty of characters get complained about. Practically every complaint about other characters that you mentioned has been made by someone at some point (and some of them, many people at many points). It's not "only" Cream.

[Red Hot Jack]

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 9:37 AM, Edward850 said:

You sure? Sonic Rush and Chronicles do not give that impression. Not to mention the Archie comics while they were still running. From what I can tell, "but she was never really interested in adventuring" is only a recent opinion and I'm yet to see any concrete evidence to that in this thread, meanwhile her behaviour in the previously stated is a contradiction. 

I agree. Her main aspect is actually being "curious" about discovering new things which is nice. So she's perfect for adventures. Just not really interesting.

Plus I agree that she was ignored when SEGA pushed her, I think even hated, if they hated Cream it's really at that point when she was the 5th member of the team. More than in ant other period. But still, even Amy was hated during the 2000s, mostly for her Heroes dialogues.

One more thing that was ignored, and i pointed out in this very thread several times: Not only Cream was snobbed by fans when she was relevant. They didn't actually notice she was gone until the Chao replaced her in TSR. I mean… what?

[Sonic Fan J]

12 hours ago, Iko said:

People say that she's "bland", she has no goal, but what do Mighty and Ray have to offer in that regard? Do people complain that Mighty and Ray have no goal?

I can't speak for Ray who for the most part is usually just Mighty's friend, but Mighty and his potential as a fellow globe trotter like Sonic is usually where I find my interest in him comes from. Him being a fellow pacifist like Cream would actually make him a cool mentor character for her as budding adventurer due to her curiosity as well, plus him being defense oriented would assure that she stays out of trouble for the most part. And now you've got me wanting to see that relationship and how it could play out so thanks for mentioning the two of them together as it stimulated my imagination, which is something Cream usually doesn't do, which actually probably answers your question as well. She just normally doesn't stimulate my imagination so I normally just don't care about her and I think that's honestly perfectly fair.

[Dash Speed]

Why is Cream bashed for being "not" cool enough or totally action driven, and Amy and Big gets a pass on it, they more or less fits as much as Cream does in being on of the uncool cutesy female catered charterers.

[Iko]

16 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I don't really get why you feel the need to downplay other characters in order to justify your like for Cream. Or better, why do you care so much?

Some characters are more popular than others, sorry it's not Cream. But can we stop this insulting of other characters just because your favorite isn't popular?

I'm not downplaying or insulting the other characters, I'm just comparing the issues that people see in Cream, with issues that I find in other characters and that people often overlook or accept.

(and I quite like Ray, at least gameplay wise).

And while Cream is indeed one of my favorite characters, she's not "my absolute favorite"; I don't have a single favorite character, there are some characters that I like and I try to "defend" when people trash talk about them, Cream happens to be the most trash talked, and that's why I find myself talking about her that much.

If people consider pointing out flaws in characters such as Silver and the Chaotix as offensive, then what should I say when people say that Cream should be axed, Infinite is trash (even though I don't like Infinite that much, I still liked him enough to find annoying when people say that stuff about him), Knuckles should be replaced by Amy as the third main character, and uhm well... Blaze doesn't often get too much hate, but she's a character I like too.

16 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Dude plenty of characters get complained about. Practically every complaint about other characters that you mentioned has been made by someone at some point (and some of them, many people at many points). It's not "only" Cream.

But for some reasons Cream is the only one that people want removed from the franchise (even if she already barely appears).

4 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I can't speak for Ray who for the most part is usually just Mighty's friend, but Mighty and his potential as a fellow globe trotter like Sonic is usually where I find my interest in him comes from. Him being a fellow pacifist like Cream would actually make him a cool mentor character for her as budding adventurer due to her curiosity as well, plus him being defense oriented would assure that she stays out of trouble for the most part. And now you've got me wanting to see that relationship and how it could play out so thanks for mentioning the two of them together as it stimulated my imagination, which is something Cream usually doesn't do, which actually probably answers your question as well. She just normally doesn't stimulate my imagination so I normally just don't care about her and I think that's honestly perfectly fair.

That's pretty interesting actually. And that's another thing that you can do with her in order to give her a "purpose"; well, excluding the classic vs modern barrier between the two characters (that IMO is stupid and shouldn't even exist).

[StaticMania]

9 minutes ago, Iko said:

But for some reasons Cream is the only one that people want removed from the franchise...

Inaccurate.

I'd go on to look this up, but "X" character is never the only one of anything...and this applies to both positive and negative reception of whatever character.

[Gumbit]

I think Cream is overhated character comparing to the others .

Edited February 4, 2019 by Gumbit

[DabigRG]

So, to actually get to this after a considerable delay

On 2/1/2019 at 4:10 PM, DabigRG said:

 

Okay, I guess this finally gives me something vaguely uncommon to talk about here: I sometimes feel like with Cream, people are making certain "problems" with her character out to be far larger and more severe than they actually are.

I'm gonna get my list from the front page again and go down it to address the holes and leaps of logic. But I'll go ahead and say this much: there's nothing wrong with mild mannered girl characters and pacifists in general.

 

Yeah, what the hell is that about?

.

On 1/31/2019 at 6:38 PM, DabigRG said:

 

Anyway, from what I hear, it's some combination of:

• Some players not feeling safe playing as a cute little rabbit girl instead of some "cooler" teenage animal 
• Her voice (most understandable under 4kids)
• "Just being cute"
• Being more pacifist in an action adventure series 
• Not getting much character development 
• Allegedly stealing traits from nice little kid Tails and positive girl Amy
• Apparently being more Japanese than most of characters

Me personally, she turned out to be one of my favorite game characters when I actually made a list, though I was always somewhat fascinated by her.

Oh shoot, I remember that video!

Let's address each of these as we go, shall we?:

On 1/31/2019 at 6:38 PM, DabigRG said:

 

• Some players not feeling safe playing as a cute little rabbit girl instead of some "cooler" teenage animal 

Okay, to have a comfortable start, this one is ultimately a matter of preference and thus can't really be taken too much issue with within reason. The only thing one can do in that regard is bring up how that description can be applied to a couple of characters, particularly Tails and Amy, even if they are something of a minor...well, minority.

On 1/31/2019 at 6:38 PM, DabigRG said:

 

• Her voice (most understandable under 4kids)

As I noted before and at least once , this is at least the second most legit criticism for this character among others: how pleasant and yet distinct their vocal performance is. Cream's voice is obviously softer and yet higher pitched than most characters, which for some can be a little grating to listen to at length. Which, due in part to Cream not actually getting to saying much outside of Sonic X, is why the 4kids version is the biggest offender. Meanwhile Studiopolis is the best voice we'd had for English speakers imo, as it still sounds young and "cute" without being overly single toned, at least from what I've heard.

On 1/31/2019 at 6:38 PM, DabigRG said:

 

• "Just being cute"

I kinda had to do a double take on this since I thought I just addressed it on top of the inherent shortcoming, but yeah, I honestly don't know how to grasp this one. Cuteness, while having some common traits and attributes that can relied on, is still kind of a superficial concept. Which is sorta the point I guess, but yeah, outside of certain moments in Sonic X, Cream being cutesy doesn't seem to be that much of a tangible characteristic beyond the plainest appearance. And considering a number of Sonic characters can be deemed cute in certain contexts, I'm even more confused.

Maybe someone else can tackle this in a way that can make more quantifiable sense?

On 1/31/2019 at 6:38 PM, DabigRG said:

 

• Being more pacifist in an action adventure series 

And this is [almost] the one that really bothers me on a logistic level. So let's take our time to really look into it:

First off, what is a pacifist? The general definition is a person who opposes  violence, especially war, and believes in using peaceful means to resolve an issue. This can be expressed and/or demonstrated in a number of ways, from to limiting violence to noncritical or fatal levels, to trying to maintain discipline, to refusing to use violence at all, to only using it when necessary.

When applied to Cream overall, she probably falls between the last two with a lean towards the latter. Where this trait gets fuzzy and arguably falls apart comes down to a couple of things.

1. This is a 2 foot 3, six year old rabbit we're talking about. Not wanting to get into fights is sort of inherent, not to mention decent.
2. It pretty much falls just short of being an Informed Trait. Not because Cream gets into the action anyway--oh no no, that's so common to being outright warranted--but because the series doesn't really call that much attention to it; the only reason to still sorta count it is because it is a natural, if overly general way of extending off the polite aspect of her character. One apparent(?) Cream fan and one that was unremittingly not have both gone on about how Cream being a pacifist is this maddening element that constantly haunts her character even though the only game it comes in is Sonic Battle--more on that later. 
3. This is sort of the obvious one spinning off both, but it's pretty irrelevant given that Cream is very support oriented character and the youngest of a cast of other, more risk taking characters and even some who also don't really indulge that much either. Her fighting or not fighting or what have you is honestly not an issue because in addition to getting involved when she needs to, the characters are just as likely to do so as well
4. Just to cap the issue off entirely, she kinda got over it just as soon as it flared up, if even that.

Returning to the Sonic Battle point, this game is the only one to put proper focus on Cream as a character; her debut games, Sonic Advance and Heroes, didn't actually do much with her due to their minimalistic/simple approaches to storytelling. As such, it ended up being the presented and thus far only time to try developing deeper traits. Where this gets a bit murky in context is that the game doesn't really put that fine a point on her behavior as being "pacifistic."

Having watched Battle's story through Fund the Charity Room, I went in expecting this to be discussed or implied and a key collective moment that was somewhat described at length and...yeah, Cream being an out and out pacifist sorta doesn't come up as a hard fact(in fact, she makes what I think was her second appearance coming over to go several rounds of boxing at Amy's place) and the sequence that was described, while there, is fairly different from what I was told. And I left that overall viewing and later reading experience confused.

Cream's role in the game and her Story overall was kind of peculiar, when you really think about it. Let's recap it for those who aren't familiar with the game:

• Spoiler

   

  • After saying goodbye to Amy when she leaves to go shopping for a diet machine or whatever, Cream is given Emerl by Sonic and Tails for safekeeping after news of a Chaos Emerald gets out. Suddenly, Eggman just walks into what I assume was her apartment, announces that he faked that news report, sprays Emerl with "Hedgehog Be Gone," and has his Phi's take them to the Gimme Shelter to unlock Emerl's secrets and use Cream as a hostage. 
  • After being placed under the watch of Chaos Gamma, who still bitter about Emerl defeating him and taking one of his Shards earlier, the Gizoid fights off a supply line of Guard Robos. Confused as to why Cream doesn't "play," Emerl learns about the concept of sadness when Cream explains that she doesn't like when people get hurt.
  • So, Cream and Emerl encounter the two Phis that promptly attack them, the gameplay of which involves Cream standing in one spot for the entire battle as a sitting duck; this happens up to four times, half of which taking place during the next bullet point.  
  • Okay, serious time: after the first fight with the Phis, we get a bizarrely brusque cutscene:

    Quote

    Emerl: Cream! You need to fight, too! Do you want to get hurt?

    Cream: ... I don't care.

    Emerl: But! But!

    More on that later.
  • After taking out a second duo of Phis, Cream notices Emerl was hurt and apologizes for not fighting. He tries to pass it off as nothing, gives her one of the Phis' emerald shards, and notices something flashing. Cream thanks Cheese for trying to assure her but maintains that she was wrong and muses that Emerl is like Sonic before following him. 
  • The two encounter Eggman as he comes to give the Phis an update on his plan, with Emerl telling Cream to hide. After commenting on a possible malfunction causing them to respond to his call and failing to identify which unit Emerl is pretending to be, Eggman informs them of his plan and tells him to not tell them about the air Duct as well as hide the Key from its current location so that she can't escape. Realizing Sonic is in danger, Cream declares they should go to the Workshop Eggman mentioned.
  • After two more fights with the Gizoids(where Emerl tells Cream to hide), Cream begins to cry a little upon witnessing an eager Emerl refer to the Phis as fodder and rip out their Shards. Realizing this must be sadness, Emerl cites Sonic's earlier words, "There's nothing worse than making a girl cry," after apologizing in a mirror to Cream. After a brief pause, Emerl follows Cream to the Duct.
  • The two encounter Chaos Gamma(who's being a butthurt prick, btw), who declares to the Gizoid that he'll use his new Emerald Shard to destroy Emerl and take the real(?) Chaos Emerald from him. Emerl stands in front of Cream and refuses to fight back in order to allow Cream to get to safety without making her sad again. After being confirmed by Cheese to be having the same thought, Cream demands that Chaos Gamma stop hurting Emerl and engages the E-Series robot. Complementing her efforts, Chaos Gamma nonetheless declares he can easily recover from his damage and initiates it. Emerl gets Cream & Cheese to regroup and leaves for the Depot. 
  • Cream begins to cry again due to Emerl allowing himself to be damaged on her behalf, to which the Gizoid reveals/claims(?) he can recover right away. After being elated by her laughter at his little magic trick, Emerl agrees to train a couple of times using the rules Cream learned from Amy.
  • After complementing him as being nicer than Amy, Cream takes intervals of brief breaks to survey the area before returning for a more rigorous match. Noticing Emerl is taking it easy on her, she asks him not to hold back. 
  • Once their training is complete, Cream and Emerl hear Eggman and Sonic contacting the robots using the computer, only to be frustrated when they aren't answering. Once Eggman disconnects the call to come retrieve them himself, the hurry back to the duct for face off with Chaos Gamma.
  • After initial declaring he will take Emerl's power just as he took his, Chaos Gamma goes into Maximum Output and summons a Guard Robo in a last ditch effort to defeat the three, but fails for the last time(?). After being answered that he was fighting because wanted revenge and to get his power back, Cream informs him that power isn't a privilege, but something that should be used to protect what he cares about. 
  • After Chaos Gamma's Emerald Shard leaves him to combine into a Chaos Emerald and Emerl absorbs it, Eggman enters the Gimme Shelter frustrated with his robots' uselessness. Cream finds a switch Eggman used to trap Knuckles and pushes it on Emerl's suggestion, trapping Eggman in electricity. Emerl contacts Sonic on the computer, who snarks at Eggman's "new dance" and is filled in on all that happened by Cream. After declining his offer to come get them, Cream instead opts to leave alongside Emerl and the two dash away as Eggman swears vengeance.

   

   

So, to get to the point, it was said that Cream refuses to fight back and instead takes several blows from Chaos Gamma. This was actually a confusion of two separate events: Cream participating in most of the battles with the Phis by just standing in one place gameplay-wise and Emerl acting as a human shield to avoid hurting Cream again. To focus on the former, in a design choice that kinda baffles me due to the presentation, Cream does refuse to fight the Phis in a scene that's so odd in tone and timing. The combined implication is that Cream is outright refusing to fight, yes, and I guess they wanted to have each cutscene be different and progressing, but it's awkwardly paced in terms of the overall story's battles. 

What compounds this is that the story doesn't really acknowledge that she herself was technically allowing the robots to hurt her, nor is there really a point where the Phis are directly gunning for her in the cutscenes; the most of the battles just begin with the robots detecting the two and going on the offensive. Which again, if this is meant to be an address of pacifism, then actually talking about that aspect would've been important. Cream's dark anime moment really should've happened in coordination with something that happens in the cutscene that plays after the four fight: Emerl taking pleasure in destroying the Phis so he can take their Shards. And by extension, her actual explanation that she doesn't like seeming people get hurt probably should've came after at least the second battle, which would've made Emerl's deciding not to fight Chaos Gamma make more sense timewise.

On 1/31/2019 at 6:38 PM, DabigRG said:

 

• Not getting much character development 

I talked about this point in particular a number of times and it's honestly a stalemate. On one hand, Cream has gotten at least a bit of character development in Battle and arguably her debut of Sonic Advance 2, with the relative lack in other games coming down more on how either the focus is seldom on her or that some of the stories are a little too minimalistic. On the other, the fact that she gets so little focus in almost everything else despite her frequent appearances is a flaw with the way SEGA was handling things.

It's also been said that Cream is one of the characters that actually benefitted from appearing in other media precisely because it allows the screentime for things to actually done with her.

On 1/31/2019 at 6:38 PM, DabigRG said:

 

• Allegedly stealing traits from nice little kid Tails and positive girl Amy

This one was one I initially called BS on straight up and while I still think it's hyperbolic, I can at least see the source(s) such claims are derived from now. 

• Tails was introduced as a mild mannered and more mindful kid sidekick for Sonic who could fly by spinning his tails.
• Amy was initially developed into the limelight as a "serious" character by being shown to be a friendly and compassionate girl that befriends a Flickly with a Chaos Emerald and is relatively normal compared to the other Classic Characters.
• Cream was initially conceptualized as Amy's answer to Tails, though this was pretty downplayed in execution for a number of reasons.
• Cream's final design and moveset with Cheese was done as a way to give her a different feel from most of the other characters, with her "image" as a polite little girl being "preserved(?)" as a result.

So we end up with a character who is a mild mannered, friendly, and compassionate girl and (in her intended debut) a more mindful kid sidekick who was probably designed sometime after Sonic Adventure. Yeeeah, I'm go ahead and say the correlation most likely wasn't supposed to be even that strong when it was done, though it is kinda baked into the pot, however generic the basic description may be.  

Plus, it's not like SonicTeam hasn't reused general ideas a number of times before, if much more on the nose.

On 1/31/2019 at 6:38 PM, DabigRG said:

 

• Apparently being more Japanese than most of characters

 

Not even sure what to say to that, since that comes down to regional values and even then, I wasn't aware this was a thing until TVTropes pointed it out. So I guess I'll go ahead and use the opportunity to say there's nothing inherently wrong with having female characters, most of all very little girls, be classically feminine.

 

I could say more, but I'll leave it alone for now since I've been typing longer than I intended.

[Scritch the Cat]

Undoubtedly it is diplomatic to avoid putting down some characters when championing others, but the truth is that when characters' design and attitudes are so tied to their functions, inevitably some fit better than others, and at a time when people are talking a lot about what functions should be in a Sonic game, that is going to produce unequal ranking in many peoples' opinions.  Avoid expressing them in short, obnoxious bursts characterized by liberal use of words like "sucks" and "crap", but I don't think we have to shy away from saying we like some characters better than others, some characters fit an ideal playstyle better than others, or both.

Sonic and Shadow, for example, have the default perfect set of traits for game design based on running and rolling, since they're hedgehogs with long legs.  Add guns or swords to them, though, and people inevitably think it looks dumb and the way the gameplay changes often irritates them, too.  Meanwhile Omega has a fine set of traits for a game based on rampaging through action scenes, guns blazing, but obviously not fitted well for the idealized "save the cute animals" heroism or run-jump-and-roll gameplay.  Rouge is modeled on glamorous spies, thieves and ninjas, so she fits with climbing on walls, being airborn, and utilizing martial arts against enemies; it looks wrong when she just rolls into a ball and bowls through them, though.

With Cream, her set of traits might lend themselves well to some things, but putting them into the sort of scenario designed for Sonic himself, she seems pretty lacking.  Inoffensive, but most of what's neat about her really belongs to Cheese instead.  That is probably inevitable, in the same way that Pikachu is far more iconic than Ash Ketchum.  A lot of people hate that Ash Ketchum keeps hogging the plot of the anime and pushing the game protagonists out, but I don't hear many people complain that Pikachu is still touted as the mascot for Pokemon even when most games aren't about Pikachu.  Pikachu can show up just fine without Ash; the reverse isn't true.  That's because they make a much stronger case for Pikachu's existence.

I'm not saying this is the "right" opinion, but for me, playing as Cream just feels like playing a worse version of what I'd like better; an expanded chao presence that lets any character raise and wield a chao ally in battle.  It's similar to how it's irritating to play as Sonic in Sonic Colors, whatwith his narcissistic babbling and his speed being shackled to a power-up, since I inevitably will compare him to better versions of the character.

[Skull Leader]

As a character design, I think Cream has charm and fits the original carefree vision of the franchise before things went downhill with all the cringy, try-hard crap when Sonic tried to be an awful mix of DBZ with FF.

However as a character, I really don't see anything unique for Cream to add to the cast. We already have the optimistic, friendly and compassionate Amy (who on top is a more complex character). Personally, I still hold in contempt those occassions in which ST essentially stole Amy's role to give it to the rabbit in some of the games that coincidentally, also feature some of Amy's worst characterizations since all she was left with was her crush on Sonic that to make things worst, was taken up to eleven. This and Eggman being made a sub-boss/pawn to make some other one-shot villain look good are the two things that really makes me wish I could slap someone on the back of their heads.

Besides that, like someone pointed out, Cream has no reason or motivation to want to be part of Sonic's life and adventures like Tails and Amy... I mean yeah, Knuckles is in the same boat too, but he (as much as I dislike this) has his association to the Genesis games for marketing to exploit, while Cream just doesn't have that same privilege.

Then there is the part of this being an action series. There really isn't much for a pacifist character to really do, and just to put things into perspective: Amy, who many see as being aggressive is, ironically, the one character that can really de-escalate conflicts without relying on violence or beating the bad guys into submission. 

Even more, after watching the 6th episode of Mania Adventures and Amy displaying again the very trait that made her my all-time favorite character and the best in the side of the good guys, I have to ask if there still is something that justifies Cream being placed as a main character again?

I know some fans argue of her connection with the Chao, but sadly, that ship left the dock many years ago and as per the Dark Lord Iizuka, the Wisps are all the rage now... at least until they too get replaced by some new cute critter. 

Others will point at her friendship with Amy. IMO, not only is this a very under-developed relationship, but to make things worse, neither character emphasizes in a positive manner what makes the other an endearing character in the first place like how it happens with Sonic and Tails. Instead, it backfires and shows the bad side of each other, like how Amy appears to be bitchy and demanding, even selfish, when compared to Cream's impossible levels of "better than you" politeness, or how Amy's energetic and vibrant personality makes Cream look like a very dull and flat character.

Frankly, Amy never needed to have her own version of Tails, especially not a character that I see as being redundant and who would leach on what Amy already brought to the franchise.

Tl;dr - Cream's design is OK and has charm, but her personality needs a complete overhaul, as well as having a unique role that does not overlap nor take away from existing characters.

[StaticMania]

5 minutes ago, Skull Leader said:

...who on top is a more complex character...

She is?

[Scritch the Cat]

1 hour ago, Skull Leader said:

As a character design, I think Cream has charm and fits the original carefree vision of the franchise before things went downhill with all the cringy, try-hard crap when Sonic tried to be an awful mix of DBZ with FF.

However as a character, I really don't see anything unique for Cream to add to the cast. We already have the optimistic, friendly and compassionate Amy (who on top is a more complex character). Personally, I still hold in contempt those occassions in which ST essentially stole Amy's role to give it to the rabbit in some of the games that coincidentally, also feature some of Amy's worst characterizations since all she was left with was her crush on Sonic that to make things worst, was taken up to eleven. This and Eggman being made a sub-boss/pawn to make some other one-shot villain look good are the two things that really makes me wish I could slap someone on the back of their heads.

Besides that, like someone pointed out, Cream has no reason or motivation to want to be part of Sonic's life and adventures like Tails and Amy... I mean yeah, Knuckles is in the same boat too, but he (as much as I dislike this) has his association to the Genesis games for marketing to exploit, while Cream just doesn't have that same privilege.

Then there is the part of this being an action series. There really isn't much for a pacifist character to really do, and just to put things into perspective: Amy, who many see as being aggressive is, ironically, the one character that can really de-escalate conflicts without relying on violence or beating the bad guys into submission. 

Even more, after watching the 6th episode of Mania Adventures and Amy displaying again the very trait that made her my all-time favorite character and the best in the side of the good guys, I have to ask if there still is something that justifies Cream being placed as a main character again?

I know some fans argue of her connection with the Chao, but sadly, that ship left the dock many years ago and as per the Dark Lord Iizuka, the Wisps are all the rage now... at least until they too get replaced by some new cute critter. 

Others will point at her friendship with Amy. IMO, not only is this a very under-developed relationship, but to make things worse, neither character emphasizes in a positive manner what makes the other an endearing character in the first place like how it happens with Sonic and Tails. Instead, it backfires and shows the bad side of each other, like how Amy appears to be bitchy and demanding, even selfish, when compared to Cream's impossible levels of "better than you" politeness, or how Amy's energetic and vibrant personality makes Cream look like a very dull and flat character.

Frankly, Amy never needed to have her own version of Tails, especially not a character that I see as being redundant and who would leach on what Amy already brought to the franchise.

Tl;dr - Cream's design is OK and has charm, but her personality needs a complete overhaul, as well as having a unique role that does not overlap nor take away from existing characters.

 

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

She is?

I would say so, yes. 

Also Knuckles doesn't just have "privileges" for sticking around based on being in the Genesis games; he hardly has gotten much more out of that than most other characters have lately.  What Knuckles has is something he is willing to fight for.  His personality can clash with Sonic's, but it doesn't usually stop him from being an ally.  I think people make a bit too much about how Knuckles is supposed to be the Guardian of the Master Emerald and thus consider it out of character when he partakes in stories unrelated to that; the bigger point is that Knuckles has a sense of honor that motivates him to do important jobs well, and what those jobs are can vary.

Amy is like a more intimate, zoomed in version of Sonic; he goes fast and performs heroic acts related to the "big picture", while Amy takes a liking to individuals, tries to befriend and help them, and she isn't so much aggressive as she's willing to beat the shit out of those who harm these friends.  That's the key difference between her and Cream; I can just as easily see Amy befriending a chao but if the chao is kidnapped, I can see Amy going on a destructive rampage to save it in a way I can't see Cream doing unless she gets a substitute to do the fighting for her (as was the case in Shadow the Hedgehog). 

People keep saying to me that I shouldn't base my whole perspective of Cream on how she acted in Sonic Battle.  I don't; I see her based on what Yuji Naka declared to be the intent with her character, but her appearance in Sonic Battle was when Cream became, to me, the symbol of the greatest weakness in the Adventure era.  Back then, they were too fond of cramming all sorts of disparate ideas into their series, diluting what might have been a more solid premise with less ideas, and while I think in retrospect I liked it better than the alternative that came afterward, putting Cream in a fighting game was one of the key moments where yes; desire to feature all sorts of characters came at the expense of the sort of game they were in.

Again, this doesn't mean there is no place for Cream, but there sure doesn't seem to be much one in this series as it currently exists.  On that note, though it pains me to say it, the Wisps do fit better than chao for what Sonic is about at its core, but for what it's worth I still think Tails and Knuckles are better than the Wisps at that.  If they're going to have exploration in the games, even if it's just to collect medals, it's far more fluid to tie abilities useful to exploration to standard character movesets than depletable, stop-and-start power-ups.