What's the beef with Cream the Rabbit?

[Dr. Detective]

Despite how often I go on about how Cream should stay on the back-burner or in the background because she doesn't have anything to her that's worth pushing her before anyone else I wouldn't say that I have any real hatred for her. Like the second post in the thread explained, it's just general apathy.

I don't typically find that following the exploits of a cute, polite little girl has the chance of being all that exciting if that's all she's really got going for her. Until she gets some sort of personal goal or desire, that feeling will remain the same.

 I feel she's best fit for emotional support or as a nice little excuse to have scenes of characters relaxing and talking about stuff in a comfy house where Vanilla is serving tea and crackers or whatever. We could certainly use more of those. Down-time is something the series lacks a lot of and if Cream and her humble abode can provide that, she'd be doing us a great service. 

Saying that she shouldn't be pushed before any of the others isn't the same as saying she should just leave after all. 

I just remember, back in the day, when she was being pushed so hard I was trying to figure out why when it seemed like everyone else had more going for them. That clearly isn't the case now. Forget being hated. It seems more like she's being forgotten, which seems like it'd be a lot worse. 

[Sonic Fan J]

18 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Well that's the part where him being a friend and ally comes in. What's he going to do, deliver the message and then just leave?

That's not to say the whole thing works, though; the explanation for him showing up is shamelessly contrived and he never actually does anything meaningful. Once he's there it's natural for him to stick around, but they completely failed to justify him being there in the first place.

 

18 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I mean its 06...that statement should tell you everything. This isn't a Knuckles problem, this is Sega fucking sucks at basic narrative problem.

Literally 75% of the characters have no context or reasoning behind their actions, because the game doesn't give a shit.

It's really not that hard to understand

Part of why I use 06 as my example is expressly because of all of the mistakes present and the whole matter of context being a necessity. For example, if 06 had been the reboot it was supposed to be meeting Knuckles should be an introduction to his character that seeds enough info to establish who he is and why is there, but it does neither and he just appears and is then following Sonic. If you don't already know who he is you never know who he is and that is a serious storytelling faux pas. The problem is, SEGA doesn't limit that mistake to 06, they keep making it again and again especially with the claim that each game is supposedly a soft reboot (boy I wish I could find that quote of Iizuka's) to make it easier for new fans to jump in, yet they never explain anything despite adding a narrative. Sure as long time fans we can dismiss it easier and easier with each passing game, but for the new players they always say they want to attract they rely on them already being familiar with everything as well which you just can't do. If everything is a soft reboot then the context becomes that much more important if you still insist on telling a story. You just can't have a bunch of characters in a story who the story follows and never define who they are from beginning to end as it makes them extremely uninteresting and gives the audience no reason to invest in them. Context is so important it's ridiculous, even context we consider a handwave can tell someone new to the franchise everything they need to know.

But I guess at this point I'm just going in circles stating what we already know; that SEGA doesn't care and lacks the competency to handle this franchise with any type of care.

16 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Basically. People need to stop thinking Knuckles is a serious foil to Sonic, he's not. Stop letting fan opinion make you think he's Piccolo lol.

Yes Knuckles is dim and fights Sonic over stupid shit, but they've never had a cooperation problem. There's a light ribbing between them and a bit of a competitive edge, but it's never treated as anything serious. He has been consistently portrayed as a close friend of Sonic & Tails, and is more than willing to stick around help out because of that despite his own duties.

That more than justifies any appearance he makes.

I don't think I've heard the Piccolo comparison before for Knuckles, though I can see how some people might draw that conclusion.

16 hours ago, DabigRG said:

...He's not wrong.

.

.

I think that's a fine enough idea in theory. After all, it plays up previously set information about her characterization, which is clearly what you're getting at. And it could make for a decent gag and lighthearted story.

There is one(okay, two, but let's focus on the one that matters) little issue with going about now though: Cream has been an established character for years now and from what I recall, hasn't really been clumsy type. A bit careless with words, yes, but her stumbling into more trouble would be a bit uncharted for those who actually [think they(?)] remember much about the ingenue.

Oh and there's also the [second] matter of her arguably proving to be more than a little troublesome, especially for the more short-patienced and/or fusspot.

I didn't even mean to imply that Cream is clumsy, but from what I recall of her from the various games and media I've seen her in it is not uncommon for her to get a little headstrong and extend herself beyond what she is capable of and get herself into trouble that way. I could just be misremembering since I haven't really looked at any Cream specific content in years.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

 

I didn't even mean to imply that Cream is clumsy, but from what I recall of her from the various games and media I've seen her in it is not uncommon for her to get a little headstrong and extend herself beyond what she is capable of and get herself into trouble that way. I could just be misremembering since I haven't really looked at any Cream specific content in years.

Clumsy is the most neutral term I could think of at the moment, but yeah, I believe she has a few moments like that. She's also meant to be fairly naive as well.

 

Btw, I love how Rush has her spying on Blaze the Cat from the bushes, goes let's be friends without much confirmation, and then literally takes her home with her.

[Sonic Fan J]

1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

Btw, I love how Rush has her spying on Blaze the Cat from the bushes, goes let's be friends without much confirmation, and then literally takes her home with her.

You can definitely tell that Amy is rubbing off on her in those situations 

[DabigRG]

2 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

You can definitely tell that Amy is rubbing off on her in those situations 

I mean, if you wanna be easy about it, sure.

Why the heck not?

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

 

I don't think I've heard the Piccolo comparison before for Knuckles, though I can see how some people might draw that conclusion.

It was pretty common in the 2000's, particularly when the series was high off Shonen Anime tropes.

[Iko]

On 2/5/2019 at 2:28 AM, Scritch the Cat said:

I'm not saying this is the "right" opinion, but for me, playing as Cream just feels like playing a worse version of what I'd like better; an expanded chao presence that lets any character raise and wield a chao ally in battle.  It's similar to how it's irritating to play as Sonic in Sonic Colors, whatwith his narcissistic babbling and his speed being shackled to a power-up, since I inevitably will compare him to better versions of the character.

I like this idea, and I think it already happend in a couple of occasions (Sonic Advance 3, if you team up with Cream as partner, you can use a chao as any character for a limited time; Sonic Chronicles if we count spin-offs).

Though, I think this is another reason why Cream should stay.

Gameplay-wise, it would be interesting to have this gimmick of equipping chao in the main gameplay, but not every game should be based on this gimmick; Cream would be the character that keeps this gimmick even in other games where other characters can't.

Think of Sonic Forces and the Wispons... let's assume Buddy returns in a new game (with the default wolf design from the trailer): he would be the character who uses wisps and wispons, even if nobody else do, because that's the way he fights, and removing that would remove the main trait of the character.

Like, in Super Mario Bros 2, every character can grab vegetables and throw them, and it was also possible in Cpt Toad, but that gameplay is usually associated to the character of Peach, and she would occasionally show that move even in games where other characters can't do it (Smash, for example).

 

For this reason, I think that Cream's gameplay should be changed to be less focused on flying and more focused on what you can do with Cheese (expanding the gameplay with new ideas), because that's the main trait of the character and the unique thing that sets her apart from the others.

[Scritch the Cat]

Since people have continued drawing comparisons between Cream's pacifism and Knuckles' Emerald-guarding, I want to point out what I think is a notable difference; between them but also between Cream and many other characters: Most characters are defined by what they do, while Cream is largely defined by what she doesn't.  This has ramifications for whether she's included or not in new games, and how well she fits.

To go back to my main example (because Frankly, Cream isn't in too many games), profiles of Sonic will likely say he likes running at Mach speed, going on adventures and helping people in trouble; they probably won't say he likes punching Tails in the mouth...but they don't say he's averse either, so he can do that in fighting games.  Cream, though, has a dislike of fighting written into her character, so it should be a no-brainer that she shouldn't be playable in a fighting game.  

As for other places...at best she doesn't get in the way.  But since so many Sonic games involve fighting on some level, they either need to make Cream compromise her ethics or work around it somehow.  A chao attack is a workaround in games with more simple movesets, where she doesn't just wind up having the most boringly repetitive move set, but with how much of a game-breaker Cream was considered in the Advance series, maybe they considered the option more trouble than it was worth.

If we may go back to Knuckles and the Master Emerald for a moment, I have seen it posted elsewhere that Sega has held off on revisiting those bits in new games out of fear of more lawsuits from Penders.  I'm not sure there's any real worry so long as they don't use the Chronicles characters, but does anyone have more insight on this?

[StaticMania]

10 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Cream, though, has a dislike of fighting written into her character, so it should be a no-brainer that she shouldn't be playable in a fighting game.  

Amazing. Considering her whole pacifism mentality was introduced and resolved in a fighting game, this series truly handles its characters well.

Big Swell.

[Iko]

So I want to share another thing in this thread.

Some times ago, I did a ten minutes video about Sonic Advance 2's physics. I took Sonic and experimented with the environment and the moveset, to prove that Sonic Advance 2's physics aren't as bad as many people say.

It was mostly about Sonic, but I did a small part of that video with Cream, to show the different moves she can use in order to make the gameplay a bit more interesting.

I think there is A LOT of potential in that stomping move, because along with being able to fly, it lets Cream do something that nobody else does: precise bouncing!

Spoiler

(sorry for the quality, video size and memory size, it's already a miracle that I have been able to convert this piece of video into a gif in the first place; this is the original video in case someone wants to give it a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B6DWE8FQFo&feature=youtu.be).

You can adjuste your trajectory by flying, then you drop and you bounce with the trajectory chosen; Ray from Sonic Mania kinda does it a bit, but it's still harder to perform because you don't have all the air control that characters such as Cream and Tails have (it's not free flight, it's a glide, so you have to keep moving); other than that, she's pretty much the only character who does this.

I think that they should change the way she flies, because dropping requires an attack button. I think that it would be better to just give her a multi-jump instead of a fly. If you have ever played Kirby's Dream Land 3, there's a character that jumps exactly the way I'm suggesting: Chuchu.

Chuchu has an infinite multi-jump with decreasing stamina: the jumps are gradually weaker, and while the first 3/4 jumps actually make you gain height, the subsequent jumps will be too weak to let you gain height, and you will slowly glide instead; that's IMO the perfect flight for Cream, with the addition of stomping after a jump if you don't keep pressing the jump button within a certain time.

Obviously, triggering the multi-jump would uncurl her, mking her vulnerable exccept for her feet.

I'd make her so that each time she bounces on a badnik, she starts that dance-like spin animation from her forward+R trick in Advance 2, allowing for more horizontal control and simplifying the way for bouncing on multiple badniks without landing.

-----

Another move that I like of Cream is the Bunny Boost from Speed Battle (mobile game). As I said previously, I think it's based on how rabbits do little jumps in order to walk; this is perfect because, like in the classics, it's an ability based on the animal species of the character. I think it can be integrated into 2D gameplay as well in the form of replacing the spindash. If you press down + jump while standing, Cream will do a small bunny hop similar to Amy's in Advance 1, but carrying all the momentum regardless of if you keep holding down or not. By running after this, Cream will spawn a colored trail like in the mobile game, and as long as the trail is on screen, pressing down + jump will let you perform another bunny hop, multiplying the speed of the former one by a percentage (1.2 maybe); perform this multiple times to gain speed, but keep in mind that you are vulnerable the whole time.

If the trail disappears and you are still holding down, Cream will roll and you will lose the ability to chain another bunny hop; as long as the trial is on screen, you can also jump (by releasing down and pressing the jump button; you will be curled - hitting a badnik without being damaged will destroy it with no knockback/bounce; hitting a boss will make you bounce back and break the Bunny Boost instead),  and if you land in time, you can still chain another hop; the more you chain hops, the longer the trail will stay; holding the opposite direction will make the trail disappear way faster than letting it disappear naturally, and it will also let you brake as usual.

-----

I'm sure that with these changes, her gamepay would be way more interesting than it is right now, and this without even considering Cheese into the mix... (Cheese can be implemented as a passive skill maybe... I have some ideas but I don't know if they can work).

My idea for cheese is a leveling up system inspired by the way how Chao Garden works, based on the animals you save from inside the badniks.

Cheese interacts with the animals in a similar way as chao do in the Chao Gardens from the SA games; he would spawn animal traits (ears, hands/feet, wings, etc) depending on the animal used, and each animal would give him different properties. I'm not sure how to implement this properly, but I think it's a very interesting concept that I'd like to see expanded. In my opinion, they can even remove the broken attack she had in the Advance games and use Cheese in a completely new way.

This would be a special skill similar to how Sonic gets new moves from the elemental shields and nobody else does.

As a nice touch, I'd like to make a stats screen appear during Cream's idle animation (or by pressing up or something), similar to the one that you see in the Chao Garden when you grab a chao. The screen would show Cheese's look from closer (an icon with his current look, animal parts included) and some parameters such as range, stamina, strenght, and so (parameters depend on how you would implement him in gameplay, which I'm not sure about). Parameters would increase by catching animals or (more slowly but all together) by getting rings, while they would decrease by losing rings and getting damage instead; parameters do have a cap, and maybe you get a special bonus when a parameter is maxed (for example, with Power maxed, Cheese would attack and destroy badniks like in Advance 2, or automatically like Super Tails in S3&K).

[Scritch the Cat]

21 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Amazing. Considering her whole pacifism mentality was introduced and resolved in a fighting game, this series truly handles its characters well.

Big Swell.

No; I've already explained earlier why I disagree with this.  Cream's pacifism being a problem was not resolved, since she still never fought herself by the end of Sonic Battle; she just commanded Cheese to attack, and again, that was something she was already willing to do in Sonic Advance 2, which premiered earlier, so she didn't really develop; she was just de-railed and then re-railed. 

Moreover from an aesthetic angle, Cream came off as lame in Sonic Battle because everyone else got to show some new depths with their movesets, while still calling back to their broader personalities.  Sonic is the happy-go-lucky type so his fighting style uses dance-like moves in addition to his standard rolls, Amy is often portrayed as a modern, urban girl so she has boxing moves learned during a trendy workout in addition to her standard hammer, Shadow is a dark, SciFi-ish character so his moveset looks a bit like Matrix-style Wi-Fu in addition to his chaos control, Knuckles has all sorts of heavy attacks, etc.  Only Cream utilizes just one theme as the basis of every attack, which felt lame in comparison, because they had stipulations about what she shouldn't do, and if they weren't willing to go back on them they shouldn't have put Cream in a fighting game.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Scritch the Cat
Corrected an error that DabigRG pointed out.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

No; I've already explained earlier why I disagree with this.  Cream's pacifism being a problem was not resolved, since she still never fought herself by the end of Sonic Battle; she just commanded Cream to attack, and again, that was something she was already willing to do in Sonic Advance 2, which premiered earlier, so she didn't really develop; she was just de-railed and then re-railed. 

 

I honestly don't see the correlation there beyond " she didn't make contact herself, so it don't count."

Never mind that she does so in later games, canonically speaking. And that's ignoring the fact that she was supposed to be rigorously boxing with Amy and repeatedly training with Emerl.

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

; she just commanded Cream to attack,

"Go get them, me!"

"You got it, me!" 

 * Headbutts everyone out *

Both:"The best thing about being ME...is that there are so MANY me's."

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Moreover from an aesthetic angle, Cream came off as lame in Sonic Battle because everyone else got to show some new depths with their movesets, while still calling back to their broader personalities.  Sonic is the happy-go-lucky type so his fighting style uses dance-like moves in addition to his standard rolls, Amy is often portrayed as a modern, urban girl so she has boxing moves learned during a trendy workout in addition to her standard hammer, Shadow is a dark, SciFi-ish character so his moveset looks a bit like Matrix-style Wi-Fu in addition to his chaos control, Knuckles has all sorts of heavy attacks, etc.  Only Cream utilizes just one theme as the basis of every attack, which felt lame in comparison, because they had stipulations about what she shouldn't do, and if they weren't willing to go back on them they shouldn't have put Cream in a fighting game.

Now I will say that I am disappointed to learn that they didn't use that opportunity to mix up her moves to include non-Cheese siccing moves beyond the healing animation, from what I recall. But ah well, Cream's in that game because they wanted as many different characters as they could in it and Cream is definitely different from the other characters.

Nevertheless, I think the most likely reasons for that are that 1. they wanted to have an exclusively projectile using character, but mostly 2. they were too "lazy" to include two separate movesets for her.

[StaticMania]

She's willing to acknowledge the Chao can fight...and thus takes part in Chao Karate.

[DabigRG]

58 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

She's willing to acknowledge the Chao can fight...and thus takes part in Chao Karate.

Ah--the supposedly very Japanese character knowing karate! How...well, surprisingly fitting. Especially given a particular secondary facet of it.

[Iko]

I was reading this wall of text and I noticed this:

On 2/4/2019 at 10:52 PM, DabigRG said:

 

  Hide contents

 

• After saying goodbye to Amy when she leaves to go shopping for a diet machine or whatever, Cream is given Emerl by Sonic and Tails for safekeeping after news of a Chaos Emerald gets out. Suddenly, Eggman just walks into what I assume was her apartment, announces that he faked that news report, sprays Emerl with "Hedgehog Be Gone," and has his Phi's take them to the Gimme Shelter to unlock Emerl's secrets and use Cream as a hostage. 
• After being placed under the watch of Chaos Gamma, who still bitter about Emerl defeating him and taking one of his Shards earlier, the Gizoid fights off a supply line of Guard Robos. Confused as to why Cream doesn't "play," Emerl learns about the concept of sadness when Cream explains that she doesn't like when people get hurt.
• So, Cream and Emerl encounter the two Phis that promptly attack them, the gameplay of which involves Cream standing in one spot for the entire battle as a sitting duck; this happens up to four times, half of which taking place during the next bullet point.  
• Okay, serious time: after the first fight with the Phis, we get a bizarrely brusque cutscene: More on that later.
• After taking out a second duo of Phis, Cream notices Emerl was hurt and apologizes for not fighting. He tries to pass it off as nothing, gives her one of the Phis' emerald shards, and notices something flashing. Cream thanks Cheese for trying to assure her but maintains that she was wrong and muses that Emerl is like Sonic before following him. 
• The two encounter Eggman as he comes to give the Phis an update on his plan, with Emerl telling Cream to hide. After commenting on a possible malfunction causing them to respond to his call and failing to identify which unit Emerl is pretending to be, Eggman informs them of his plan and tells him to not tell them about the air Duct as well as hide the Key from its current location so that she can't escape. Realizing Sonic is in danger, Cream declares they should go to the Workshop Eggman mentioned.
• After two more fights with the Gizoids(where Emerl tells Cream to hide), Cream begins to cry a little upon witnessing an eager Emerl refer to the Phis as fodder and rip out their Shards. Realizing this must be sadness, Emerl cites Sonic's earlier words, "There's nothing worse than making a girl cry," after apologizing in a mirror to Cream. After a brief pause, Emerl follows Cream to the Duct.
• The two encounter Chaos Gamma(who's being a butthurt prick, btw), who declares to the Gizoid that he'll use his new Emerald Shard to destroy Emerl and take the real(?) Chaos Emerald from him. Emerl stands in front of Cream and refuses to fight back in order to allow Cream to get to safety without making her sad again. After being confirmed by Cheese to be having the same thought, Cream demands that Chaos Gamma stop hurting Emerl and engages the E-Series robot. Complementing her efforts, Chaos Gamma nonetheless declares he can easily recover from his damage and initiates it. Emerl gets Cream & Cheese to regroup and leaves for the Depot. 
• Cream begins to cry again due to Emerl allowing himself to be damaged on her behalf, to which the Gizoid reveals/claims(?) he can recover right away. After being elated by her laughter at his little magic trick, Emerl agrees to train a couple of times using the rules Cream learned from Amy.
• After complementing him as being nicer than Amy, Cream takes intervals of brief breaks to survey the area before returning for a more rigorous match. Noticing Emerl is taking it easy on her, she asks him not to hold back. 
• Once their training is complete, Cream and Emerl hear Eggman and Sonic contacting the robots using the computer, only to be frustrated when they aren't answering. Once Eggman disconnects the call to come retrieve them himself, the hurry back to the duct for face off with Chaos Gamma.
• After initial declaring he will take Emerl's power just as he took his, Chaos Gamma goes into Maximum Output and summons a Guard Robo in a last ditch effort to defeat the three, but fails for the last time(?). After being answered that he was fighting because wanted revenge and to get his power back, Cream informs him that power isn't a privilege, but something that should be used to protect what he cares about. 
• After Chaos Gamma's Emerald Shard leaves him to combine into a Chaos Emerald and Emerl absorbs it, Eggman enters the Gimme Shelter frustrated with his robots' uselessness. Cream finds a switch Eggman used to trap Knuckles and pushes it on Emerl's suggestion, trapping Eggman in electricity. Emerl contacts Sonic on the computer, who snarks at Eggman's "new dance" and is filled in on all that happened by Cream. After declining his offer to come get them, Cream instead opts to leave alongside Emerl and the two dash away as Eggman swears vengeance.

 

 

"Cream informs him that power isn't a privilege, but something that should be used to protect what he cares about"

So that's the dialogue where everyone comes from saying that Cream is a copy of Amy? Because that's definitely one of those moralist chatting that usually Amy does.

Yes, I agree that it's out of character for Cream to act that way, but as far as I remember, that's the only time she did such a thing, and even in Sonic Rush where Cream is Blaze's sidekick, the moral talk about friends and stuff was still made by Amy.

I don't remember Sonic Battle's dialogues very well, because I didn't like that game so much and I don't feel like replaying it or watching it only for a dialogue (for what I care of story and personalities anyway), but if that's all, it may even be some spirit of emulation: they are shown spending time together at the beginning of the game, right? Maybe Cream learned this behavior from Amy or something, but it's not actually part of her personality, it's just something that she did because she has seen Amy doing it.

But really, that's the very only moment where the two characters were ever similar...

Aside of that christmas short of Sonic Mania Adventures with Amy... when Amy takes care of Metal Sonic and puts a flower in his hand, I can't help but I see Cream with Emerl/Gmerl doing the same; though Cream would never send a sentient weapon of mass destruction back to his owner no matter how much compassion she feels for it, she would rather destroy it against her will because it's the right thing to do... or if anything, she would bring it to her home (probably causing even bigger troubles) or to Tails' lab asking him to fix and reprogram it (or she would just hide it in a secret place so that Eggman can't find it, trying to befriend it in the meanwhile).

Despite that scene is a point of contact between the two characters, the outcome would have been very different if it was Cream instead of Amy (and with Amy it works better for comedy, that's what Sonic Mania Adventure is all about).

[StaticMania]

9 minutes ago, Iko said:

Maybe Cream learned this behavior from Amy or something, but it's not actually part of her personality, it's just something that she did because she has seen Amy doing it.

Don't you know nothin?

She can't have seen Amy do anything, that's Sonic Battle Amy...the negative one and nothing happens in between games unless the story calls for it. So Cream's dialoague there is what she actually thinks, she definitely wouldn't have learned it from Amy in that game. She's more likely to learn it from Big at that point.

9 minutes ago, Iko said:

So that's the dialogue where everyone comes from saying that Cream is a copy of Amy?

Not everyone who says Cream is a copy of Amy has seen through Sonic Battle...and even the people who did are more focused on her overall portrayal than that one line of dialogue. That would be the game people use to actually say she's different.

[DabigRG]

17 minutes ago, Iko said:

I was reading this wall of text and I noticed this:

"Cream informs him that power isn't a privilege, but something that should be used to protect what he cares about"

So that's the dialogue where everyone comes from saying that Cream is a copy of Amy? Because that's definitely one of those moralist chatting that usually Amy does.

Yes, I agree that it's out of character for Cream to act that way, but as far as I remember, that's the only time she did such a thing, and even in Sonic Rush where Cream is Blaze's sidekick, the moral talk about friends and stuff was still made by Amy.

 

Yeah, serious--WAIT, are you serious?

The sweet little girl with the friend Chao not liking when people get hurt, that's out of character, but basic talks about having friends is?!  

 

17 minutes ago, Iko said:

 

I don't remember Sonic Battle's dialogues very well, because I didn't like that game so much and I don't feel like replaying it or watching it only for a dialogue (for what I care of story and personalities anyway), but if that's all, it may even be some spirit of emulation: they are shown spending time together at the beginning of the game, right? Maybe Cream learned this behavior from Amy or something, but it's not actually part of her personality, it's just something that she did because she has seen Amy doing it.

But really, that's the very only moment where the two characters were ever similar...

 

I mean...maybe, I guess, if you wanna/need to look at it like that...?

Really though, in context, it's almost certainly based more on both her bond with Cheese(who she exchanges thoughts with at key points of the story) and how Emerl inspired her to fight Chaos Gamma as many times as it took.

17 minutes ago, Iko said:

 

Aside of that christmas short of Sonic Mania Adventures with Amy... when Amy takes care of Metal Sonic and puts a flower in his hand, I can't help but I see Cream with Emerl/Gmerl doing the same; though Cream would never send a sentient weapon of mass destruction back to his owner no matter how much compassion she feels for it, she would rather destroy it against her will because it's the right thing to do... or if anything, she would bring it to her home (probably causing even bigger troubles) or to Tails' lab asking him to fix and reprogram it (or she would just hide it in a secret place so that Eggman can't find it, trying to befriend it in the meanwhile).

 

Half of this also confuses me.

 

Like, when did she become this "If I can't have it, no one will" character?

17 minutes ago, Iko said:

 

Despite that scene is a point of contact between the two characters, the outcome would have been very different if it was Cream instead of Amy (and with Amy it works better for comedy, that's what Sonic Mania Adventure is all about).

Uh, which scene now?

[Unidus]

For me, it was much easier to like Cream as a character in the Sonic Advance series. That's how I was introduced to her.

In Sonic Advance 2, Cream didn't have too too much to offer in terms of who she was as a character... and I was kind of okay with that. She just seemed like a fun addition to the roster.

Cream just seemed like a wide-eyed adventurer-type to me; of course being a huge fan of the Chao Garden in SA2, it was pretty cool that she fought along side a Chao as well.

I remeber being dissappointed by how when I played Sonic heroes though and just how different the character felt to me as opposed to how she was in Advanced. 

Sure, there wasn't much to go off of from her appearance in the Advanced series, but it just didn't feel like the character that I had envisioned.

This really didn't help either when I saw her appearance in Sonic X and basically started to find the character to be a little bit less than endearing. She was right on par with Max for me; her and Max to me added almost nothing to any episode that they were in.

I would say that the voice of the character is a big part of it all as well though...

It's kind of like that book that you thought was pretty good. You hear that there's a movie coming out based on that book and you decide to give it a go... But then, you see the movie and you realize that the writers have totally transformed this property into something unrecognizable that you purposely tell your friends not to go see...

 

[StaticMania]

24 minutes ago, Unidus said:

...that you purposely tell your friends not to go see...

That's awful. All of your friends should go see Cream der Rabbit.

[DabigRG]

9 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

That's awful. All of your friends should go see Cream der Rabbit.

Dude, wtf?

[Iko]

7 hours ago, Unidus said:

For me, it was much easier to like Cream as a character in the Sonic Advance series. That's how I was introduced to her.

In Sonic Advance 2, Cream didn't have too too much to offer in terms of who she was as a character... and I was kind of okay with that. She just seemed like a fun addition to the roster.

Cream just seemed like a wide-eyed adventurer-type to me; of course being a huge fan of the Chao Garden in SA2, it was pretty cool that she fought along side a Chao as well.

I remeber being dissappointed by how when I played Sonic heroes though and just how different the character felt to me as opposed to how she was in Advanced. 

Sure, there wasn't much to go off of from her appearance in the Advanced series, but it just didn't feel like the character that I had envisioned.

This really didn't help either when I saw her appearance in Sonic X and basically started to find the character to be a little bit less than endearing. She was right on par with Max for me; her and Max to me added almost nothing to any episode that they were in.

I would say that the voice of the character is a big part of it all as well though...

It's kind of like that book that you thought was pretty good. You hear that there's a movie coming out based on that book and you decide to give it a go... But then, you see the movie and you realize that the writers have totally transformed this property into something unrecognizable that you purposely tell your friends not to go see...

 

I kinda agree... I mostly like Cream because of the Advance games (mostly Sonic Advance 2), but I'm not a fan of her in Heroes and in the anime... if it wasn't for Sonic Advance 2 probably I wouldn't care of her...

About Battle, I remember having fun playing as her, but I didn't like her too much story-wise because of that pacifism thing... I mean, OK, but it was excessive IMO.

Though I equipped Cream's special combo thing on Emerl because it was hilarious, especially for the random cutesy laughter when Cheese was unleashing the hell on some poor opponents.

IMO Sonic Advance 2 had the perfect characterization for her, even if there was very little story in that game. She was a very determined and serious character, and joyful at the same time; her "flaws" were the inexperience (being too young), and the excessive emotiveness that often resulted in her crying and losing all hopes when the situation get bad. Her being cute/polite was secondary in that game.

8 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Yeah, serious--WAIT, are you serious?

The sweet little girl with the friend Chao not liking when people get hurt, that's out of character, but basic talks about having friends is?! 

Yes, I'm serious. It's not what she thinks, it's how she says it.

That's totally one of those Amy "cheesy wise words" moment like in Sonic Adventure 2 when she persuades Shadow to help Sonic and the others, or when in Sonic Rush she talks to Blaze about how helping and being helped by friends is a good thing.

Cream is usally more spontaneous and simpler than that, she doesn't tell morals through cheesy poetry like Amy occasionally does... that's pretty much the only exception so far and I think it's out of character.

8 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Like, when did she become this "If I can't have it, no one will" character?

Uh, which scene now?

Never, because that's not what I was meaning. She would hide it because it's a dangerous weapon, but it's sentient and doesn't want to hurt him... but if Eggman finds it he would use it for evil things... Cream is also a reserved and a bit shy character at times, like when she stalks Blaze from a bush in Sonic Rush. That's just one of the options in my post... most of them are based on stuff already happend in games (Emerl's story Sonic X version, Gmerl from Sonic Advance 3).

And on the top of that, it was just an example to highlight how Amy and Cream are different, for those who say they are the same, it's not meant to start an argument.

The same scene I was talking about before, the scene when Amy decides to take care of Metal Sonic (that's very reminescent of the interaction between Cream and Emerl/Gmerl in Advance 3/battle).

[DabigRG]

8 hours ago, Unidus said:

For me, it was much easier to like Cream as a character in the Sonic Advance series. That's how I was introduced to her.

In Sonic Advance 2, Cream didn't have too too much to offer in terms of who she was as a character... and I was kind of okay with that. She just seemed like a fun addition to the roster.

Cream just seemed like a wide-eyed adventurer-type to me; of course being a huge fan of the Chao Garden in SA2, it was pretty cool that she fought along side a Chao as well.

I remeber being dissappointed by how when I played Sonic heroes though and just how different the character felt to me as opposed to how she was in Advanced. 

Sure, there wasn't much to go off of from her appearance in the Advanced series, but it just didn't feel like the character that I had envisioned.

This really didn't help either when I saw her appearance in Sonic X and basically started to find the character to be a little bit less than endearing. She was right on par with Max for me; her and Max to me added almost nothing to any episode that they were in.

I would say that the voice of the character is a big part of it all as well though...

It's kind of like that book that you thought was pretty good. You hear that there's a movie coming out based on that book and you decide to give it a go... But then, you see the movie and you realize that the writers have totally transformed this property into something unrecognizable that you purposely tell your friends not to go see...

 

.

5 minutes ago, Iko said:

 

IMO Sonic Advance 2 had the perfect characterization for her, even if there was very little story in that game. She was a very determined and serious character, and joyful at the same time; her "flaws" were the inexperience (being too young), and the excessive emotiveness that often resulted in her crying and losing all hopes when the situation get bad. Her being cute/polite was secondary in that game.

 

So what you're saying is...you like Sonic characters better when there's little to no story or dialogue?

5 minutes ago, Iko said:

 

Yes, I'm serious. It's not what she thinks, it's how she says it.

That's totally one of those Amy "cheesy wise words" moment like in Sonic Adventure 2 when she persuades Shadow to help Sonic and the others, or when in Sonic Rush she talks to Blaze about how helping and being helped by friends is a good thing.

Cream is usally more spontaneous and simpler than that, she doesn't tell morals through cheesy poetry like Amy occasionally does... that's pretty much the only exception so far and I think it's out of character.

 

And you know this because...?

I mean, its not like how Cream usually doesn't get much to say half of her appearances anyway. Or how that thing is just like how Sonic uses cheesy wise words towards Blaze, Elise, and Merlina. Or how any Sonic or other anime/game/cartoon/etc character could say something like that because it's ultimately a generic young hero speech.

Also, like, the only one that at least lines up there is the one with Blaze, which happens after this game anyway, if I'm not mistaken. 

5 minutes ago, Iko said:

 

Never, because that's not what I was meaning.

Okay, that's just how part of that summed up at a glance.  

 

 

5 minutes ago, Iko said:

She would hide it because it's a dangerous weapon, but it's sentient and doesn't want to hurt him... but if Eggman finds it he would use it for evil things...

Uuuh...that is an interesting thought, I'll at least say that.

16 minutes ago, Iko said:

Cream is also a reserved and a bit shy character at times, like when she stalks Blaze from a bush in Sonic Rush. That's just one of the options in my post... most of them are based on stuff already happend in games (Emerl's story Sonic X version, Gmerl from Sonic Advance 3).

 

 Keh, I mean, when you put it like that, lol...

16 minutes ago, Iko said:

 

And on the top of that, it was just an example to highlight how Amy and Cream are different, for those who say they are the same, it's not meant to start an argument.

The same scene I was talking about before, the scene when Amy decides to take care of Metal Sonic (that's very reminescent of the interaction between Cream and Emerl/Gmerl in Advance 3/battle).

Hm...makes you wonder....

 

 

Still, I stand by what I said--it's a rather basic resolve for that story scenario/situation and it sounds like one Cream would believe in.

Like, to make it better for either side, she could've cited an example, like her bond with Cheese, the Unbreakable Sonic and Tails, or more contextual appropriate, how Emerl had just been that for her. Makes sense from both a little kid standpoint and has the bonus of appealing to a robot, which tends to operate by logic.

[Iko]

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

So what you're saying is...you like Sonic characters better when there's little to no story or dialogue?

 

I'm saying that I don't care of dialogues, I usually like characters for their designs and their gameplay. Having good dialogues and better story involvement is a plus but I don't care much of that stuff.

I like Cream in Sonic Advance 2 because you can drop bounce on enemies and float around with the R-tricks; I like the potential of implementing a chao gameplay-wise... I don't care if Cream is a pacifist or if she has the same personality as Amy (which she doesn't anyway).

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, Iko said:

...her "flaws" were the inexperience (being too young), and excessive emotions that often resulted in her crying and losing all hopes when the situation get bad.

I don't see how that 2nd thing is a flaw, she's 6 and has a Ma'.

[Iko]

11 hours ago, StaticMania said:

I don't see how that 2nd thing is a flaw, she's 6 and has a Ma'.

It's used as a flaw when it becomes an excuse for not being able to do something, not being completely independent, or even other people not taking her seriously or ignoring her (like when Sonic runs away before she even manages to explain him the situation about her mother).

Probably flaw is the wrong word, limitation is more correct.