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DabigRG

Details that people might forget, don't notice or just don't know about the Sonic Series

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@herefor1reason @Pengi @Indigo Rush

While I'll admit I've never played Battle and only looked into the stuff I wanted/bothered to watch(ei. Sonic's Story, Cream's Story, Emerl's Story, and maybe a few random other bits), I don't think there is a hard fast timeframe for it. It "helps" that SonicTeam's tracking of the ongoing story and character arcs were already somewhat slackish by that time.

Sonic Advance 3 also presents a factor or two to consider. Eggman was in the company of Gemerl, another Ultimate Fighting Robot, who came with explicit allusions to Emerl's existence. Whether this is a robot made to emulate him or what was salvaged of Emerl himself, the connection is clear with or without the Super Genesis Wave as a factor.

So basically, Battle can happen either before or after Shadow's Game, with the latter being the more likely for the sake of convenience. Regardless, Broad Strokes can easily be in affect and whatever connection Shadow had with Emerl could be different officially or just not have happened. All that's really important in the longrun is the Sonic, Tails, Amy, Cream&Cheese, and maybe Knuckles find Emerl, teach him a variety of things, protect him from Eggman and maybe Rouge, and then are forced to destroy him when he goes out of control.

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

There's not actually any contradiction between these two things.

No, but in this case, I can sorta understand why you'd wanna keep those two things out of the same context. 😆

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18 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

There's not actually any contradiction between these two things.

There is. Shadow in battle suggests that his powers comes from maria and that's why he can do chaos control with out an emerald and maria soul is a suggestion for a sort of power source.

In shadow's game however, Not only is aliens the reason why he can do everything he can do. The whole point of the games narrative is that it isn't because of maria, its because of him. Its because he's choosing to whatever it is shadow chooses to do. It doesn't just contradict on a lore level , story wise . Shadow's game makes very deliberate decision to separate shadow from everything from the ark. Its the end of the arc, ark. Shadow is shadow, he is all of who he is as the theme song states. He literally throws a picture of maria and Gerald away at the end to signify this. And this characterization and justification for his power continues into sonic 06 as well. Not just the arc to, the game goes so far as to seperate shadow from every previous story detail that he he has had before

Made from an echidna ruin about sonic? Nope Black arm ruins

Gerald made him by himself?Nope not only do we not know where shadow came from, he had assistance that justify's why shadow looks the way he does and why he has the powers he does

Maria is his power? She's a motivation to do the right thing, but much like a bird leaving the nest , its up to you to choose what to do with what you learned. Which is .. .you know... the whole games point. Choice .

Its pretty clear cut, they wanted to get rid of a lot of shadow's previously conceived notions and push forward in a different direction with the character. And this continues into the next game, to this day even.

Edit: And even if you suggest that is in the metaphorical sense, if Shth Is to go by the only characters maria has met is Gerald, shadow and some gun scientists. So there's no metaphorical connection to be had, in Sonic battle gerald robotnik  was on some purple guy fnaf shit and put a child soul in a machine and a hedgehog. In shadow's game, its because shadow is half Demon... I mean alien. And gets a bunch of cool half demon... I mean alien powers. The half Demon... alien trope is pretty common and they just wanted to change direction from one anime trope... to another edgier anime trope.

 

 

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There's no contradiction. The emeralds change thoughts into power, his alien biology is the physical element that allows him to replicate this, his promise to Maria/the moral compass Gerald programmed into him based on Maria's is the "thoughts" that fuel it. Even if you want to argue that ShtH ends with him throwing away any connection to or care for Maria and Gerald (which sounds like a pretty shitty ending) and that he now derives his moral compass from something else that doesn't contradict him relying on his thoughts about Maria at some other point in time.

13 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Shadow's game makes very deliberate decision to separate shadow from everything from the ark. Its the end of the arc, ark. Shadow is shadow, he is all of who he is as the theme song states.

Wouldn't it make more sense for "I am all of me" to mean that he's the sum total of all his disparate parts, the good and the evil, the alien and the earthling, tying into the game's morality choices/split paths and saying they are all different but equally true aspects of Shadow, rather than "this one part doesn't matter anymore it's all alien all the time baby!"

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29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

There's no contradiction. The emeralds change thoughts into power, his alien biology is the physical element that allows him to replicate this, his promise to Maria/the moral compass Gerald programmed into him based on Maria's is the "thoughts" that fuel it. Even if you want to argue that ShtH ends with him throwing away any connection to or care for Maria and Gerald (which sounds like a pretty shitty ending) and that he now derives his moral compass from something else that doesn't contradict him relying on his thoughts about Maria at some other point in time.

There is , Because emril also has maria soul.

So its not a metaphor or moral compass, its just her soul. Who if he did have maria soul, means that gerald whilst in jail some how transferred soul juice from his granddaughter corpse into two experiments. Not only is the not mentioned in the games prior, this isn't mentioned in the game afterward, shadow the hedgehog which basically is the " retcon everything and make everything make sense-ish " game . And if that isn't mentioned, nor is anything from that game mentioned, that might be one of the contradictory elements that got retconned.

And the moral comppass program doesn't work, the plot of SA2 is that gerald does the opposite, he programs him to be destructive, but once he gains his actual memories of what occurs, he makes the CHOICE to be a better person. Choice is important and we will get to that in a second.

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Wouldn't it make more sense for "I am all of me" to mean that he's the sum total of all his disparate parts, the good and the evil, the alien and the earthling, tying into the game's morality choices/split paths and saying they are all different but equally true aspects of Shadow, rather than "this one part doesn't matter anymore it's all alien all the time baby!"

No. Because the whole narrative is about control and choice. Something that is central to shadow's character, like as a person.. hedgehog... demon alien... edgelord. Is that through every moment of his life as far as he is aware there has been some element trying to control him and then him choosing to do otheriwse. Whether it be gerald changing his memories to cause him to seek revenge for him, eggman trying to trick him into thinking his an andriod, black doom trying to turn him into his own darth vader, or Mephilies trying get him to join him... do whatever mephilies's plan was. And if you really feeling cynical maria in the sense of what she wanted shadow to do.

Shadow in multiple stages of his video game career and even in his spin of material career is often put against the idea of control and choice. Its so relevant to his chaacter that even people not even interested in sonic at all like the game grumps came up with " ambivalence " joke. Where am I going with this , the whole point of story is that he is the sum of his parts, but he's also his own person.  He's not a weapon, he's not an alien demon son , he isn't even this knight for good maria wanted, he's... shadow.

Yes, even maria. Maria at the end of the day was a 10 year old girl and while she was very nice , shadow very much does not limit his moral compass to just that of maria. He frequently condones, murder, he's crass, rude, if he isn't intested in something or helping a person he will just leave them, he's prone to bouts of malice. But ontop of all that he often has to make more complicated moral decisions than maria accounted for being... you know a 10 year old child. While he's in the end a good dude trying to help he often indulges in very un-maria behavior. Like say " We should probably kill eggman " . He's not going to let maria as nice as she was , influence him to the degree in which he can't do what he deems is right. So while she's a nice person, he literally throws her and Gerald away saying " he's his own person " What do you think that means?  Shadow is actualized now, his own person, left to his own devices.  And he has decided to do the right thing, whatever that maybe for him.

Now you might say that this is , in your own words a " Shitty ending " , Let me offer you this thought. It could just be a shitty ending. I have not one time, argued quality. I have argued, what is.

And in this game series, with so many failures, do you think ending a story in an unreasonable fashion is out of the ordinary?

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3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

There is , Because emril also has maria soul.

So its not a metaphor or moral compass, its just her soul. Who if he did have maria soul, means that gerald whilst in jail some how transferred soul juice from his granddaughter corpse into two experiments.

No.

Simply, no. This is nonsense. This is not what the games are saying. Gerald was not sucking "soul juice" from his granddaughter's corpse to squirt it into his experiments.

This is what Gerald's journal actually says about Emerl:

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 My best hope is to try and reprogram its AI into a free-willed, emotions-based AI...

 I have decided that the keyword to activate the Gizoid's free-willed emotions-based AI program will be those very words. "Bring hope to humanity." My poor, poor Maria...

A heritage of the past I dug out, "Gizoid"... And the ultimate life form I created by my own hands, Shadow... I equipped both weapons with "heart." If all powers are not what is to be obtained for oneself, but what is to be born from hearts that yearn for someone, I believe all conflicts should cease to exist. Please... If there is anyone listening to my prayers... Bring hope to humanity.

This is what Gerald gave Emerl (and Shadow). Not "soul juice". Free will and a conscience, inspired by Maria.

16 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Maria at the end of the day was a 10 year old girl and while she was very nice , shadow very much does not limit his moral compass to just that of maria.

Yes, so what? That doesn't mean he has to throw all his feelings about her into the trash. This was never about absolute hardcoded morals.

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I'm just gonna go ahead and say that I think the whole "Maria is in you" thing is probably meant to refer to her compassion and understanding towards mankind, as well as the ability to do things through/for that capacity.  In other words, She Lives In You.

Cause quite frankly, a literal application just sounds implausible.

 

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3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I'm just gonna go ahead and say that I think the whole "Maria is in you" thing is probably meant to refer to her compassion and understanding towards mankind, as well as the ability to do things through/for that capacity.  In other words, She Lives In You.

Cause quite frankly, a literal application just sounds implausible.

 

And this would also have some DARK implications about G-merl (and maybe an explanation about why (s)he wasn’t in Chronicles); Eggman’s willing to use a robot with the soul of his own cousin as a weapon and even reconstruct her into evil! Shadow probably advised against G-merl because he felt it would disrespect Maria, and he didn’t want to risk the Nocturnus capturing her and making her a weapon again.

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1 minute ago, Miragnarok said:

And this would also have some DARK implications about G-merl (and maybe an explanation about why (s)he wasn’t in Chronicles); Eggman’s willing to use a robot with the soul of his own cousin as a weapon and even reconstruct her into evil! Shadow probably advised against G-merl because he felt it would disrespect Maria, and he didn’t want to risk the Nocturnus capturing her and making her a weapon again.

Egh.

Is Vanilla's Cottage in Chronicles?

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25 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

No.

Simply, no. This is nonsense. This is not what the games are saying. Gerald was not sucking "soul juice" from his granddaughter's corpse to squirt it into his experiments.

This is what Gerald's journal actually says about Emerl:

 

Quote

This is what Gerald gave Emerl (and Shadow). Not "soul juice". Free will and a conscience, inspired by Maria.

That doesn't make sense. And actively contradicts what happens in shadow the hedgehog and sonic adventure 2. These things didn't need to be programmed into shadow, a conscious or anything because shadow met maria. Infact in sonic adventure 2 and in shadow the hedgehog have Gerald doing the opposite and latter has him apologizing for doing so . Along with shadow's creation in itself being more obfuscated because of the ruins in the arc being retconned into black arms ruins and black doom playing more of a roll into shadow's creation so much so that the reason shadow looks like shadow is because of his black arms dna. And given there were black arms ruins on the ship and black doom already knew what chaos emeralds were in that game. He might have not even made shadow, he might have just found someone.

You also just gave me answer of that I wasn't even thinking of, I honestly have to thank you.

16 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I'm just gonna go ahead and say that I think the whole "Maria is in you" thing is probably meant to refer to her compassion and understanding towards mankind, as well as the ability to do things through/for that capacity.  In other words, She Lives In You.

Cause quite frankly, a literal application just sounds implausible.

 

That could be a totally fine interpretation if it wasn't linked to shadow's powers. Which @Diogenes here just gave me an explanation on why that's implausible on a platter.

To bring it all the way back to the beginning. Shadow doesn't remember who maria is at the beginning of the shadow the hedgehog game. If maria is the source of his power... why in the hell was he able to use his powers with remembering her. He is actually able to use some abilities with out remembering her in the game, with out a chaos emerald. This is if i'm not mistake the introduction of shadow's no emerald warp.  Not only that, he gets an entire other set of abilities he gains from being angry and raging which is some very un-maria shit. This ontop of Black doom demonstrating the same abilities  its a pretty open and shut case that maria in herself the source of his abilities like the game claims or her consciousness. Because in a state where shadow literally can't piece what's going on, shadow  got new powers and had old ones.

So there is no other option besides he did some William Afton Shit , and put soul juice in both of shadow and emeril. Because otherwise litterally the first cutscene of the game would actively contradict everything in the previous game including shadow saying maria is his power. Because he literally gains more powers not even remembering who maria is , and gains control enough to do some of them with out chaos emeralds. That isn't even to mention the end of the game, where he throws the picture away and declares himself his own person

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Yes, so what? That doesn't mean he has to throw all his feelings about her into the trash. This was never about absolute hardcoded morals.

His feelings for her has nothing to do with his moral compass. He can like a person and not have that person decide how he lives his life in absolution. He chooses to do what he would like and does not wish to absolve himself from responsibility

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4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Infact in sonic adventure 2 and in shadow the hedgehog have Gerald doing the opposite and latter has him apologizing for doing so .

He did both.

4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Along with shadow's creation in itself being more obfuscated because of the ruins in the arc being retconned into black arms ruins

What in the fuck are you talking about? It's the emerald shrine!

4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

To bring it all the way back to the beginning. Shadow doesn't remember who maria is at the beginning of the shadow the hedgehog game. If maria is the source of his power... why in the hell was he able to use his powers with remembering her.

It's not the only possible source of his powers. Again, thoughts into power. ShtH has moral choices. You power up your hero and dark meters by doing hero and dark actions.

4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

So there is no other option besides he did some William Afton Shit , and put soul juice in both of shadow and emeril. Because otherwise litterally the first cutscene of the game would actively contradict everything in the previous game including shadow saying maria is his power.

No. This still makes no sense.

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13 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

That could be a totally fine interpretation if it wasn't linked to shadow's powers. Which @Diogenes here just gave me an explanation on why that's implausible on a platter.

To bring it all the way back to the beginning. Shadow doesn't remember who maria is at the beginning of the shadow the hedgehog game. If maria is the source of his power... why in the hell was he able to use his powers with remembering her. He is actually able to use some abilities with out remembering her in the game, with out a chaos emerald. This is if i'm not mistake the introduction of shadow's no emerald warp.    its a pretty open and shut case that maria in herself the source of his abilities like the game claims or her consciousness. Because in a state where shadow literally can't piece what's going on, shadow  got new powers and had old ones.

So there is no other option besides he did some William Afton Shit , and put soul juice in both of shadow and emeril. Because otherwise litterally the first cutscene of the game would actively contradict everything in the previous game including shadow saying maria is his power. Because he literally gains more powers not even remembering who maria is , and gains control enough to do some of them with out chaos emeralds

 

Wait...what...? 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

He did both.

 

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What in the fuck are you talking about? It's the emerald shrine!

Ask sega. The ruins  that you visit are the same ones that were on the arc.

Before you mentioned the idea of " This would be a shitty story " , maybe it just is in fact a shitty story.

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It's not the only possible source of his powers. Again, thoughts into power. ShtH has moral choices. You power up your hero and dark meters by doing hero and dark actions.

But he can do both of those things with out remembering her and his alien dad has the same powers. His powers come from aliens, and one time he met a blond child who told him to be slightly less of a dick and decided might as well.

That's it.

Quote

No. This still makes no sense.

No it doesn't make any sense. But its the only option if maria is where his powers come from, and he's able to do that with out maria. Unless his powers... don't come from maria... and never did he just didn't know where his powers came from. And its from a game they retconned and contradicted.

Oh hey speaking of his powers not coming from maira, oh remember sonic 06, remember the archie reboot comics. Remember these official products sega put out where shadow has insecurities about his powers because he feels as though they make him a monster and feature a character trying to coerce him into being bad. Oh oh my, what's this , oh that's his character, a character that has insecurities about where he's powers come from. Oh well if they only came from maria, or he knew they came from maria he wouldn't feel these insecurities. Its almost as if the character in his characterization feels as though he's a monster and his powers comes from these monsters. And him feeling like an other is and has been a key part of his character to this day. Its probably gonna pop up again in the IDW comics.

Its almost as if , in sonic official material even spin off material when shadow is characterized in depth he has these insecurities about his powers... its almost as if he himself along with narrative telling you that his powers don't come from maria, it comes from a bad place. And shadow has to fight off the bad place to do good thing.

Its almost as if , that game was reconnected because they wanted to change the story and that's not hard to get. Almost .

Maybe just maybe, they took that element away and removed him father from the arc stuff and closer to the alien stuff so they could make the character seem edgier and thought that was a way to make him more appealing to his fanbase and retconned a spin off game they didn't care about to do so purposefully introducing contradictory elements for the sake of selling toys merch, games ect. 

I'm going to repeat myself a 3rd time

Maybe the story is just a bit shit , yeah?

Here is your out, I'm not defending this. If anyone is the resident shadow fanboy around here that isn't dash speed, its me. I'm not defenidng this I don't even like all the story details I just said, it would behoove me interpret these things in a way that is more paleteable. I'm even for in a hypothetical reboot , throwing away everything and outside of " was captured by a government facility and locked up " changing every single other element of the narrative. I say this as a shadow fan. So despite how sassy I may seem and sorry If Have disrespected you in anyway, i'm giving you an out. You can do what I ussually don't do , declaire these story elements shit and decide a better path for a better narrative.

Because i'm not arguing quality , i'm arguing for what is and what isn't. And what happened is sonic team wanted to make shadow a half, demon, gave him a demonic alien dad reconnected a spin off game so that's where his powers came from so they could have a " Fighting off the darkness " narrative they keep using over and over and keeps being used. So they can sell him as the cool edgelord with cool edgelord details. It is what it is

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5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Ask sega. The ruins  that you visit are the same ones that were on the arc.

There is literally no reason to think it has anything to do with the Black Arms when it looks the same as the emerald shrine, serves the same purpose as the emerald shrine, and first appeared in a game long before the Black Arms were even thought of. If you think otherwise, provide actual evidence.

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

But he can do both of those things with out remembering her and his alien dad has the same powers.

You're not even reading my posts. His Black Arms DNA gives him the physical capacity to generate Chaos energy. His feelings are the fuel he uses to generate Chaos energy. That sometimes he uses his feelings about Maria and sometimes he uses his feelings of wanting to conquer Earth or beat up Sonic or Eggman or Black Doom or whatever is not a contradiction.

I'll say this straight, since you still don't understand what I'm actually arguing: I am not saying that ShtH isn't cannon. I am not saying that Shadow's powers don't come from the Black Arms/Black Doom. I'm not saying all this "woe is me, poor pitiful alien hybrid" garbage didn't happen. I am saying that it does not contradict Battle, that both are true, that each game explains a different aspect of how Shadow uses his powers. His Black Arms DNA provides the engine. His thoughts, of Maria and of other things, are the gasoline.

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

If anyone is the resident shadow fanboy around here that isn't dash speed, its me.

One would think you'd actually take the time to understand basic facts about the character and the stories he's been in then, instead of making up shit about soul juice.

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4 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

There is a good reason to dismiss it. While it's a fun story, it has Shadow mentioning Maria and then forgetting her one game later.

As I said, "As long as you assume it takes place before Shadow the Hedgehog there's no real reason to dismiss it."

Let's not forget that Sonic Battle was released slightly before Sonic Heroes, so its story was "out of order" from the beginning. Sonic Battle itself makes reference to Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes. Sonic Battle is then referenced in Sonic Advance 3. So it certainly has two-way ties to other games in the series.

For whatever it's worth, Emerl's character profile (with new artwork) was added to Sonic Channel sometime between 9th April 2007 and 18th April 2007. So Sonic Battle's story was considered a relevant part of the Sonic series even a year and a half after the release of Shadow the Hedgehog.

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On 3/28/2019 at 2:35 PM, JezMM said:

Sorry but c'mon, this is a thread for posting trivia, not headcanons.  None of these are confirmed points of trivia, and in fact I'd say the fact that the Death Egg's destruction is celebrated is actually a pretty hefty contradiction to suggest that Little Planet WASN'T inside the Death Egg of Forces.  Why on earth would the Sonic characters be happy to destroy the Death Egg if they knew Little Planet was inside (which Sonic and Tails would, from Sonic 4, if it was the same Death Egg)?  If you can't explain that, you're just responding to one plothole by making another.

The plothole Sonic 4 made by never reaching it's intended conclusion still frustrates me to this day too, but the Death Egg of Forces doesn't even share it's purple colour-scheme and is specifically referred to as the "Death Egg" multiple times including it's stage name, not the "Death Egg Mk.II".  They aren't the same Death Egg.

Maybe they just forgot about it? Or Sonic’s SIX MONTHS of torment could have tarnished the good memories of Little Planet. I admit it is possible that Eggman simply jettisoned Little Planet when he no longer needed it as a frame for the Death Egg, however.

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6 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Maybe they just forgot about it? Or Sonic’s SIX MONTHS of torment could have tarnished the good memories of Little Planet. I admit it is possible that Eggman simply jettisoned Little Planet when he no longer needed it as a frame for the Death Egg, however.

As said, anything related to forgetting or memory is just creating another plothole to explain away the existing one.  Sadly, only fanon can answer it, because it is 100% a plothole left by Sonic 4's storyline being cut off prematurely due to Episode 3 being cancelled.

Personally, I think the most simple fan theory would be that Sonic and Tails successfully powered down the Death Egg, and without power to sustain... whatever Eggman was doing to it, Little Planet just disappeared from inside at the end of the month as usual.  The Death Egg mk.II either then crumbled or, sure, served as the starting point for the Death Egg we see in Forces.

However the sticking point is that this thread was about sharing stuff that is inarguable content from the games themselves, not fan theorising for patching over the absence of content.

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The TGS trailer for Sonic Lost World mentions that the Lost Hex is a "Future Continent" of Sonic's World.

In the japanese opening of the game, Tails describes it as a "continent of illusions".

Also, in Sonic Runners Tails states that rings that stay around nature for a really long time accumulate some sort of "special energy", which transforms them into power rings (they're basically mini rainbow rings that grant you powerful energy if you collect lots of them).

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5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

It blows my mind how some of you will read the text in this very metaphysical series that is about magic and the power of friendship and stuff so literally.

"Chaos is Power, Enriched by the Heart"

 

But yeah

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On 4/28/2019 at 6:53 AM, Wraith said:

It blows my mind how some of you will read the text in this very metaphysical series that is about magic and the power of friendship and stuff so literally.

It's the "mad scientist" antagonists. From the very beginning, it's hard to describe what Dr. Robotnik wants the Chaos Emeralds for without getting into magiscience territory.

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10 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

It's the "mad scientist" antagonists. From the very beginning, it's hard to describe what Dr. Robotnik wants the Chaos Emeralds for without getting into magiscience territory.

Nah, I'd say it was really more on Tikal's Prayer, which suggests the Emeralds are more than just power sources.

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2 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

It's the "mad scientist" antagonists. From the very beginning, it's hard to describe what Dr. Robotnik wants the Chaos Emeralds for without getting into magiscience territory.

Not really? The emeralds have a magical/spiritual element to them but they also work just fine as soft sci-fi infinite energy sources. The Japanese Sonic 1 manual lays out their potential fairly clearly:

Quote

Chaos Emeralds are a super substance that gives energy to all living things. Furthermore, they can also be used as nuclear weapons or high energy laser weapons by science and technology. 

 

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On April 28, 2019 at 6:58 AM, DabigRG said:

"Chaos is Power, Enriched by the Heart"

 

Too bad it can only be harnessed by "S" named male hedgehogs, as if somehow they were more virtuous/pure of heart than other less assuming characters. :/

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Here's a weird thing: In Sonic '06, the only person to notice Blaze's existence is Silver.

Never once is she spoken to or responded to outside of Silver. Theorise as you will, this could be a result of Blaze being literally shoved into the plot, and therefore incompatible with the rest of the game's story. The only person who speaks to her is Silver, that's all.

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