Details that people might forget, don't notice or just don't know about the Sonic Series

[Kazhnuz]

I think that it's an exemple of gameplay/story dichotomy, but one that could have been avoided with more care (in contrary of the Cream trainwreck that cannot be avoided as she is supposed to be an easy mode). Canonically, the werehog is way stronger than regular Sonic. But in game, as it's a beat-them-all, they can't make him OHKO everything, while for Sonic's gameplay, they needed to be able to OHKO them (and the "punch" stuff seems to me more the work of his speed than his fist alone, as he have never been shown to be that good with them).

 

They could have add avoided that though, with some care :

- By adding some Gaïa Monster in shadowed part during the days, and making Sonic unable to really kill them.

- By making the robots that Sonic also fight less frequent during werehog gameplay, and make them be OHKO by the werehog

- By creating "stronger" robots that would be the real "base" ennemies for Werehog, and some kind of "miniboss" for regular Sonic (as he would loose all his ring when hit, and have to make several hits to destroy them).

 

I think it's a good exemple of how gameplay and story aren't always simple to mesh together when taking the "simple" route. Some people decide to not care, some other to care more, some want the story to affect more the gameplay, and many other think more the opposite.

[Sonic Fan J]

4 hours ago, MainJP said:

I'm not the only one who thought that?

Yup, you're not the only one.

 

Funny thing is, despite the game aiming to be a beat'em up with the werehog, I typically just held down the right trigger and skipped every encounter that didn't unlock a door or switch on subsequent playthroughs. I frankly found a lot of the levels a lot more enjoyable that way actually. I guess that shouldn't be surprising though since Sonic and a videogame franchise is more about movement and speed running than combat.

[Sega DogTagz]

I don't think its a truly genuine comparison to say Sonic in his base is physically stronger than the Werehog. Feats or no feats, Sonic's super speed greatly skews the amount of force he is able to exert to absurd levels. Its just basic math. From a standstill that punch isn't likely to leave a dent. Toss in a side of superspeed an he's hitting with enough force to be a planet buster. And everything in between those two extremes.

 

Take away Sonic's speed and he'll have a hard time in a scrap. Take away the Werehog's and he's still got the upperbody strength to claw and smash his way through anything that stands in front of him.

[StaticMania]

And yet...Sonic could still use said force to destroy the bots.

Speed like that is nothing without power.

Sonic is a lightning bruiser.

[Sonic Fan J]

Especially if one takes Sonic's speed to be natural and not some foreign super power as the movie seems to be aiming for. Movement still requires use of your muscles, and being able to move at reactionary instances at those speeds demonstrates a massive level of strength. On top of that, in the Sonic CD ending Sonic from a short distance above shoves the cannon of a scorpion bot through it's own exterior plating and tears a buzz saw bot later apart with his bare hands while riding atop it. then in any classic Sonic game where Sonic has to hold onto something, it is always the something that falls apart and never Sonic's grip. Sonic is plenty strong and continues to make the werehog's presentation of strength look underplayed.

[Sega DogTagz]

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

And yet...Sonic could still use said force to destroy the bots.

Speed like that is nothing without power.

Sonic is a lightning bruiser.

 

Force =/= Strength though

Sonics destructive capabilities have much more to do with his super speed than anything else. Lightning Bruiser or not, to put Sonic in the same tier as the Werehog in a measurement of strength is disingenuous and a bastardization of the term. If we were comparing the kinetic output or the destructive capabilities of the two, then sure, its fair to tip the cap the the Heggies favor, but not in a contest of pure strength.

Not much Sonic is capable of in his base form should be held against the werehog because we already know that Sonic leverages his speed to hit well above his weight class. If Sonic is running around throwing Infinity punches and blowing holes in the space time continuum, we shouldn't be calling him physically stronger than Knuckles even in leiu of the end result. The same is true for most everything he can do in comparison to the werehog.

 

1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

. On top of that, in the Sonic CD ending Sonic from a short distance above shoves the cannon of a scorpion bot through it's own exterior plating and tears a buzz saw bot later apart with his bare hands while riding atop it. then in any classic Sonic game where Sonic has to hold onto something, it is always the something that falls apart and never Sonic's grip. Sonic is plenty strong and continues to make the werehog's presentation of strength look underplayed.

In one of the very first Werehog cutscenes the dude effortlessly punches clean through a sealed vault door. Blows it off its hinges

During game-play he throws around giant monsters 10 times his size like rag dolls

Underplayed? What more do you want? Does he have to throw a guy into low orbit, because he did that too.

 

I think we are conditioned to be a bit less impressed by feats of pure strength as opposed to seeing the end result of a bowling ball being shot out of a cannon at mach 1. The awe factor that is envoked by sending the Egg Lancer bouncing down the highway has more to do with his speed than his strength. It shouldn't take away from the awe to be gleamed in watching Fluffy pile drive a titan through the floor. Its not an apples to apples comparison.

[StaticMania]

2 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Underplayed? What more do you want? Does he have to throw a guy into low orbit, because he did that too.

What more?

Him to be able to kill an Egg pawn in one hit.

[Sega DogTagz]

4 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

What more?

Him to be able to kill an Egg pawn in one hit.

a. There are no Egg Pawns in Unleashed. so that's impossible.

b. Charge Punch is your friend.

[MainJP]

@DabigRG Can we move that conversation here? Seem off-topic.

Quote

Yeah, I suppose it's fitting to have a weird dimension that often houses rare beryl of infinite energy also houses a criminal who wants to sell them for money.

Wait.

So I went back and read the manual and his profile again and it doesn't say he wants to sell them. The only source that mentions that is the English manual.

There isn't really anything stopping him from collecting them as far as we know. I assume there could be Special Zone authorities but he could be that allusive. He only JUST started collecting them during the events of that game so for all we know anyone who needs them for whatever reason is free to collect them.

[DabigRG]

7 minutes ago, MainJP said:

@DabigRG Can we move that conversation here? Seem off-topic.

So I went back and read the manual and his profile again and it doesn't say he wants to sell them. The only source that mentions that is the English manual.

There isn't really anything stopping him from collecting them as far as we know. I assume there could be Special Zone authorities but he could be that allusive.

Really now? So what was his intended motivation?

[MainJP]

5 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Really now? So what was his intended motivation?

Just says he's collecting them. He's still referred to as a treasure hunter so even if he does intend on selling them it could just be to other Special Zone residents, he certainly isn't selling them to Eggman.

Alternatively, he could have some other motive we don't know about.

[DabigRG]

4 minutes ago, MainJP said:

Just says he's collecting them. He's still referred to as a treasure hunter so even if he does intend on selling them it could just be to other Special Zone residents, he certainly isn't selling them to Eggman.

Alternatively, he could have some other motive we don't know about.

Huh.

Eh, I guess the issue with that detail is that Fang, kinda like Amy and initially Rouge, was seemingly meant to come off as out of his depth when it comes to the usual Sonic status quo. In a conflict that involved a super fast hedgehog fighting for freedom, a clownish scientist using robotics to conquer the world, mystical gems of power, and recently a staut echidna capable of breaking through rocks, he was just some clumsy treasure hunter with a gun who targeted the Chaos Emeralds because they happen to look valuable. So the idea of him allegedly being from the Special Zone is rather out of theme when you think about it.

[Sonic Fan J]

19 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

In one of the very first Werehog cutscenes the dude effortlessly punches clean through a sealed vault door. Blows it off its hinges

I'll need to ask you to find that cutscene for me as I was having no luck digging it up. Sorry for the inconvenience.

19 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Underplayed? What more do you want? Does he have to throw a guy into low orbit, because he did that too.

Gameplay where the story and gameplay dichotomy is not so blatant and actually makes that strength feel important. What is that strength from a gameplay perspective if all it does is force Sonic, the lead character in a franchise built around speed and movement, to no longer be able to one hit enemies, bypass obstacles by simply leaping past, and have to stop to push blocks around (something he does just fine in Sonic 1 and 3) so he can jump a little higher (someone obviously missed out on leg day despite leg muscles being a runners true strength)? What I want is for that strength to serve a purpose that makes it feel worth exchanging Sonic's speed for it. To me the stretchy arms and platforming afforded to them is a far better trade off as Sonic is able to move in ways he normally can't and the trade off does not affect his ability to defeat enemies.

So again the gameplay, the bulk of the game, shows us that Sonic is significantly weaker and less effective (reasonable due to lack of familiarity with the transformation). But even more importantly, it makes us, the player, less effective while trying to push themes of enhanced strength and unique and destructive abilities. Yet, the exact same robots I face during the day that I can slide into at a walk and break require blow after blow, and sometimes a QTE just to finish them off in manner of time. So that one cutscene I couldn't track and pile driving an enemy looks worthless when Sonic can use his slide from just above a standstill and destroy a robot in one hit. No speed buildup, no carried momentum, just a move that slows Sonic down used from a walking pace destroys the same enemy in one hit regardless of Sonic's in game level or the cutscenes. I never feel powerful, I just feel slowed down and weak. And that is how the game was built. No suppositions of how it could have worked will address the existing fact that the werehog does not have the strength it was advertised to as the gameplay they wanted it to have is by nature inferior in combat to one hit kills. It was a failure in story/gameplay integration and as a result I just can't see the werehog as stronger than base Sonic where I can compare them; a light tap vs a long drawn out combo.

19 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I think we are conditioned to be a bit less impressed by feats of pure strength as opposed to seeing the end result of a bowling ball being shot out of a cannon at mach 1. The awe factor that is envoked by sending the Egg Lancer bouncing down the highway has more to do with his speed than his strength. It shouldn't take away from the awe to be gleamed in watching Fluffy pile drive a titan through the floor. Its not an apples to apples comparison.

True as this may be, it's why I base my problem off of efficiency and how that makes me the player feel. Spectacle has nothing to do wit hit. I can jump on the enemy from a standstill or walk forward and slide and get the exact same one hit kill as using the boost. With the werehog though, all the spectacle in the world demonstrating physical strength pales to sliding into an enemy from a walk. There isn't any spectacle in that, and yet it is far more efficient. And heck, Shadow, who is supposed to be Sonic's equal, can casually lift cars over his head in his own game and punch and kick multi HP enemies to death in 06 where Sonic also needs multiple strikes using his speed to defeat them. And due to how Dark Gaia enemies disappear in a puff of smoke when defeated and no one but the werehog interacting with them makes it difficult to believe that they are all that heavy. Though, maybe their weights are one of those details that would put us back on topic.

[Sega DogTagz]

1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I'll need to ask you to find that cutscene for me as I was having no luck digging it up. Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

@ 17:10

Quote

So again the gameplay, the bulk of the game, shows us that Sonic is significantly weaker and less effective (reasonable due to lack of familiarity with the transformation). But even more importantly, it makes us, the player, less effective while trying to push themes of enhanced strength and unique and destructive abilities. Yet, the exact same robots I face during the day that I can slide into at a walk and break require blow after blow, and sometimes a QTE just to finish them off in manner of time. So that one cutscene I couldn't track and pile driving an enemy looks worthless when Sonic can use his slide from just above a standstill and destroy a robot in one hit. No speed buildup, no carried momentum, just a move that slows Sonic down used from a walking pace destroys the same enemy in one hit regardless of Sonic's in game level or the cutscenes. I never feel powerful, I just feel slowed down and weak. And that is how the game was built. No suppositions of how it could have worked will address the existing fact that the werehog does not have the strength it was advertised to as the gameplay they wanted it to have is by nature inferior in combat to one hit kills. It was a failure in story/gameplay integration and as a result I just can't see the werehog as stronger than base Sonic where I can compare them; a light tap vs a long drawn out combo.

True as this may be, it's why I base my problem off of efficiency and how that makes me the player feel. Spectacle has nothing to do wit hit. I can jump on the enemy from a standstill or walk forward and slide and get the exact same one hit kill as using the boost. With the werehog though, all the spectacle in the world demonstrating physical strength pales to sliding into an enemy from a walk. There isn't any spectacle in that, and yet it is far more efficient. And heck, Shadow, who is supposed to be Sonic's equal, can casually lift cars over his head in his own game and punch and kick multi HP enemies to death in 06 where Sonic also needs multiple strikes using his speed to defeat them.

Imagine the RPM of Sonic even during a basic spin jump. Even jumping on enemies reduces them to smithereens by an extension of how fast he is rotating as he does so. The only real outliner here is the low speed slide, which can easily be hand-waved as a casualty of game mechanics.

 

Quote

And due to how Dark Gaia enemies disappear in a puff of smoke when defeated and no one but the werehog interacting with them makes it difficult to believe that they are all that heavy. Though, maybe their weights are one of those details that would put us back on topic.

Dark Gaia dissipated in the same puff of smoke when he was first summoned, and he was by no means light. Since the minions are literally parts of him, its a safe assumption that when the mist takes on a solid form, it would also have the appropriate weight to go with it.

Those titans also carried around Giant clubs, which couldn't have been light, and also had AOE ground pound moves indicative of a heavy weight. The Dark Gaia Pheonix wasn't made of mist and had to have some weight to it, being that big. Werehog is capable of lifting and slamming each of them. To say nothing of sending the Dark Gaia Guardian across the arena in a single blow.

[Sonic Fan J]

3 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

@ 17:10

Thank you.

4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Imagine the RPM of Sonic even during a basic spin jump. Even jumping on enemies reduces them to smithereens by an extension of how fast he is rotating as he does so. The only real outliner here is the low speed slide, which can easily be hand-waved as a casualty of game mechanics.

That hand waved element though is still part of the overall problem though. Sure it can be blamed on gameplay mechanics, but those mechanics are still the bulk of the game, and as a result I still feel far stronger as normal Sonic than I ever do as base Sonic. Of course a lot of the division here also probably comes from when I consider strength, especially in combat, I base it off of how efficiently you can defeat you enemies as that is the most important part of combat. The strength to defeat your enemy in an instant is far greater than the strength to pick up your enemy and throw them only for them to get back up. So while in physical strength the werehog is perhaps stronger, combat strength, which is the werehog's main gimmick, is almost nonexistent. Thus to me at least, as this discussion kind of stemmed from Sonic's ability to defeat enemies, in combat situations the werehog is inferior in combat strength. For raw physical power

9 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

The Dark Gaia Pheonix wasn't made of mist and had to have some weight to it, being that big.

chances of Sonic moving around something that was corrupted so easily without his speed is questionable meaning that more likely than not the werehog get's some leverage heft. A shame the game doesn't make any good use of that which is what led us to this debate in the first place. Of course speedster's in combat with non-speedsters will always be a sore spot for me, especially due to most people never taking advantage of that level of speed allows for instead of watching say the Flash charge a physically normal person at full speed only to be aikido tossed when he was moving faster than the electrical signals in their nerves could travel. It's part of why I've always enjoyed the bop and go approach that Sonic took, with his enemies being designed to take advantage of him running into them.

Anyway, I'm digressing too much at this point, but bottom line is, in combat, despite his physical strength, the werehog is weaker than normal Sonic. And since I can still recall the Sonic CD ending where Sonic is tearing apart robots with his bare hands effortlessly, I still wonder if the physical strength difference is even worthwhile.

[batson]

Tails is fat.

That is all.

[BaronGrackle]

13 hours ago, MainJP said:

Just says he's collecting them. He's still referred to as a treasure hunter so even if he does intend on selling them it could just be to other Special Zone residents, he certainly isn't selling them to Eggman.

Alternatively, he could have some other motive we don't know about.

To be a "treasure hunter", I figure you need one or more of these motivations:

* Selling the treasure for profit

* Collecting the treasure to admire in your own collection

* Having great prestige and reputation

* Enjoying the adventure of each treasure hunt

 

I think Fang's characterization puts him in the first or second camp. Maybe he WOULD sell the Emeralds to Robotnik, and maybe that price negotiation would happen off-screen after a bad ending, but there's no reason for Dr. Robotnik to pay exorbitant prices for something if he can just take it beforehand and win outright 

[MainJP]

34 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

To be a "treasure hunter", I figure you need one or more of these motivations:

* Selling the treasure for profit

* Collecting the treasure to admire in your own collection

* Having great prestige and reputation

* Enjoying the adventure of each treasure hunt

Yeah that's why I brought up the Japanese manual mentioning that he's a treasure hunter. If he does plan on selling it:

Quote

Maybe he WOULD sell the Emeralds to Robotnik, and maybe that price negotiation would happen off-screen after a bad ending, but there's no reason for Dr. Robotnik to pay exorbitant prices for something if he can just take it beforehand and win outright 

I doubt it would be to Eggman. In the manual Fang states that he doesn't care about Eggman or Sonic and collected the Emeralds while they were doing their usual thing.

[DabigRG]

9 hours ago, batson said:

Tails is fat.

That is all.

He has had a bit of a pot belly since Colors.

[Meta77]

I think people forget how bad Sega is at stories and plotholes. Let Ian have a go at the next games story

 

Just think. Solaris still exist somewhere, somehow. They blew out the flame to stop the events in the game from happening. But think about this. If they actually erased it then what the hell is soleana celebrating at the end of the game that sonic is watching and the princess is hosting, its the same festival for the same being.

 

SEGA!

[DabigRG]

9 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

I think people forget how bad Sega is at stories and plotholes. Let Ian have a go at the next games story

 

Just think. Solaris still exist somewhere, somehow. They blew out the flame to stop the events in the game from happening. But think about this. If they actually erased it then what the hell is soleana celebrating at the end of the game that sonic is watching and the princess is hosting, its the same festival for the same being.

 

SEGA!

Solaris apparently existed within a separate dimension before the Duke plucked him out in order to attain his powers over time. It's entirely possible that they worshipped it for generations before that and either assumed he went back there because the experiment wasn't meant to be(lucky bastards) or simply kept it up for tradition when the now-erased future Elise blow him out.

[Meta77]

19 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Solaris apparently existed within a separate dimension before the Duke plucked him out in order to attain his powers over time. It's entirely possible that they worshipped it for generations before that and either assumed he went back there because the experiment wasn't meant to be(lucky bastards) or simply kept it up for tradition when the now-erased future Elise blow him out.

Ill take your first two ideas but the last one would not make sense. As why have a tradition for something that never exsisted? I am not going to derail the topic to hard. My main point was Sega is bad at treating sonic right many times in the story department.

[DabigRG]

9 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Ill take your first two ideas but the last one would not make sense. As why have a tradition for something that never exsisted? I am not going to derail the topic to hard. My main point was Sega is bad at treating sonic right many times in the story department.

That goes into theology and I'm frankly not sure I'm comfortable going to into that.

I can get ya, though.

[Heckboy]

Why not keep up the tradition? Solaris is their god, of course they're going to keep worshiping it regardless of whether or not some secret experiment involving Solaris they never knew about in either timeline took place. This isn't a plot hole.

[StaticMania]

1 minute ago, Heckboy said:

Why not keep up the tradition? Solaris is their god, of course they're going to keep worshiping it regardless of whether or not some secret experiment involving Solaris they never knew about in either timeline took place. This isn't a plot hole.

Dramatic Irony is too subtle for most people...