Should there be a new "Sonic Bible" and reboot based on it?

[SBR2]

43 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic is an episodic action serial with staff that rotates frequently. That's why all of these so called soft reboots exist. They're literally keeping themselves free to make changes for the next generation of staff to suit the next generation of kids. This sounds like they're trying too hard to be trendy or something on paper but you won't catch Mario or Zelda making much in the way of long term commitments outside of lip-service for similar reasons.

 Actually rebooting everything is an entirely meaningless gesture in the wake of what this series is. It's a series of products that have their own different stylistic nuances, not an attempt to do one long running story. I honestly prefer it that way. I like being surprised. I like Sonic changing things up. The more a series gets caught up in it's own lore the more it tends to bore me.

The loose continuity was never a thing that stopped people from buying, playing or enjoying Sonic games. It's a non-issue that you'd lose more people 'fixing' than you'd gain. It's fun to fantasize about long form Sonic storytelling but I never thought the games needed to be the place for that. Read the comic and help us push for it in other formats.



 

Holy Crap. This guy gets it! 

I've never gotten this frigginobsession with Lore and continuity for this series. It has literally never been about that.

[StaticMania]

8 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

It has literally never been about that.

Sure it hasn't, that would explain Sonic Adventure through Sonic Nex Gen...and the continued use of things from previous games.

[Red Hot Jack]

It's a stupid obsession, I would only fix 2 bad mistakes that were Shadow the game and Sonic '06 but that's it. Sure there are more mistakes but those are a part of life, aren't they? Sonic will always have them. So there can not be a perfect continuity. 

A reboot is pointless. Besides, if you want to remove SA2 and Forces you'd be removing any attempts at making a deeper story and actually trying things. As it has been said Shadow is popular because it's the most fleshed out character.

Classic Sonic and Mania are the perfect oasis that deletes all the Modern "mistakes" and cast.

[Shadowlax]

58 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic is an episodic action serial with staff that rotates frequently. That's why all of these so called soft reboots exist. They're literally keeping themselves free to make changes for the next generation of staff to suit the next generation of kids. This sounds like they're trying too hard to be trendy or something on paper but you won't catch Mario or Zelda making much in the way of long term commitments outside of lip-service for similar reasons.

 Actually rebooting everything is an entirely meaningless gesture in the wake of what this series is. It's a series of products that have their own different stylistic nuances, not an attempt to do one long running story. I honestly prefer it that way. I like being surprised. I like Sonic changing things up. The more a series gets caught up in it's own lore the more it tends to bore me.

The loose continuity was never a thing that stopped people from buying, playing or enjoying Sonic games. It's a non-issue that you'd lose more people 'fixing' than you'd gain. It's fun to fantasize about long form Sonic storytelling but I never thought the games needed to be the place for that. Read the comic and help us push for it in other formats.



 

I would like to make two statements

1) I don't think it would be entirely meaningless, while I do not care for the idea of a sonic reboot introducing elements again with better introductions so they can be met well is fine idea. That series do all the time, sonic isn't perfect we know that, rebooting things could allow things to shine with being done better

2) Your statement actually makes less sense because... mania exists? Generally you could call just sonic doing whatever, just whatever. But mania exists, and not only that they have distinctively made mania a different timeline. Which means... there is care for what is and what isn't and now that we are on that road... we can't exactly stop it. And I don't think sega isn't either, I get the feeling a lot of future sega stuff is going to be choosing to axe stuff out of the 3d stuff they do not want. Heck I make the argument that sonic boom was supposed to be a premature attempt at this

So sonic changing up might end up being " We are making a separate sonic "

[Wraith]

20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

1) I don't think it would be entirely meaningless, while I do not care for the idea of a sonic reboot introducing elements again with better introductions so they can be met well is fine idea. That series do all the time, sonic isn't perfect we know that, rebooting things could allow things to shine with being done better

Reboots usually happen to retool a longer form story for a new(usually younger) audience. Sonic is already in the business of telling new stories with characters that can be explained in a sentence. There's nothing to catch people up on aside from the ever so slightly dense backstories of people like Shadow. 

People here who want a reboot aren't even concerned with things from that angle. It's usually about going back over old ideas again. Usually either to "fix" things with no explanation as to how or just a bad/worse idea than the one Sonic Team went with. I have a hard time getting excited about this line of thinking. There are parts of the atmosphere or game feel of older titles that I'm interested in recapturing, but there are a lot of more creatively interesting ways to do that. 

That's not even getting into the people that just want a reboot that just symbolically invalidates the shit they don't like. Nobody cares that Shadow or Silver remind you of a bad game you bought or that you used to make OCs or whatever.

Just make new stories that are good and watch everything fix itself. The status quo is reset every Sonic game so there's nothing stopping you from doing this. You can even pick up the ball and start making a multi-game arc like they tried to do with Shadow back in the day. All of this is possible without a reboot being necessary. 
 

Quote

2) Your statement actually makes less sense because... mania exists? Generally you could call just sonic doing whatever, just whatever. But mania exists, and not only that they have distinctively made mania a different timeline. Which means... there is care for what is and what isn't and now that we are on that road... we can't exactly stop it. And I don't think sega isn't either, I get the feeling a lot of future sega stuff is going to be choosing to axe stuff out of the 3d stuff they do not want. Heck I make the argument that sonic boom was supposed to be a premature attempt at this

Yeah I had a part about Mania before but I cut it out. It's basically a play pen for older purists and they still aren't satisfied lmao. That just makes the call for a reboot sillier. They already gave you one.

[Shadowlax]

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Reboots usually happen to retool a longer form story for a new(usually younger) audience. Sonic is already in the business of telling new stories with characters that can be explained in a sentence. There's nothing to catch people up on aside from the ever so slightly dense backstories of people like Shadow. 

No not at all. Reboots happen with this sort of thing all the time, particularly with toy lines where sonic makes a lot of money apparently. To use another example of funny color animals. The version of MLP we have now is the fourth version and wildly more successful than its ever been and its never had a deep rich lore that people remember, until now and G5 is probably gonna be another reboot. Sometimes people wanna do a new look , tell a new story , shit happens all the time particularly with kid stuff doesn't really have to be too dense.

As for shadow, while I am a fan, his backstory could do for a bit of uh, shortening to say the least

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

 

People here who want a reboot aren't even concerned with things from that angle. It's usually about going back over old ideas again. Usually either to "fix" things with no explanation as to how or just a bad/worse idea than the one Sonic Team went with. I have a hard time getting excited about this line of thinking. There are parts of the atmosphere or game feel of older titles that I'm interested in recapturing, but there are a lot of more creatively interesting ways to do that. 

I agree with you here? Fixing stuff for the sake of " fixing things " that no one asked to be fixed is beginner level film criticism to me. Its like calling out plot holes, like yeah they exist but you gotta explain why that matters enough to a general audience member to fix. While I would like Shadow, Silvers stories to be simplified  and some elements removed in shadow's case, and Knuckles to have a firm reason to not be guarding the M.E all the time. What interests me in a reboot personally... well the idea of one, I'm not that interested in a reboot. Point though , what would interest me is them doing a new interesting visual style telling new stories, sure that would mean going back and telling some stories over but i'm interested in a new take on those stories. Not to just fix things,  but to do new shit with them. Hopefully good shit.

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

That's not even getting into the people that just want a reboot that just symbolically invalidates the shit they don't like. Nobody cares that Shadow or Silver remind you of a bad game you bought or that you used to make OCs or whatever.

 

I agree with you, I have been saying this for years. You have my sword

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Just make new stories that are good and watch everything fix itself. The status quo is reset every Sonic game so there's nothing stopping you from doing this. You can even pick up the ball and start making a multi-game arc like they tried to do with Shadow back in the day. All of this is possible without a reboot being necessary. 

 

You can do that too, i'm just interested in as mentioned above them doing wild and crazy shit with visuals, and whole new retakes of characters and their interpretations in a new world I guess?

I guess I just want a new spin off series

 

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

If by "this" you mean getting new people on the series, then you don't. Obviously. And they should do that regardless of whether they reboot or not.

If you're talking about clearing the crud out of the series and replacing it with something better...I'm not sure how else you could do it. Massive retcons, maybe, but then the story's a big sloppy patchwork job and I don't think people like big retcons any more than they like reboots.

You do it by...actually giving a shit about the product you're selling and not half assing it?

If you're only motivation for a reboot is to "fix" things, then it's pointless because if the series could fix any of its problems by simply rebooting it, it wouldn't be in the state that it's in. You're not "fixing" anything, you're just sweeping it all under the rug and pretending like it doesn't exist and hoping your Mom doesn't find it. 

Yea I get it, the series sucks and everyone wishes we could just forget it all ever happened. But that's not how it is, shit happened and we gotta live it. "Rebooting" isn't going to fix anything, actually giving a shit about the game's quality will. 

Half of this series` problems are because they're constantly trying "fix" things instead of just making something that's just fucking good.

 

And yea, I'll admit Mania kind of shoots this response in the face since it technically is a reboot due to the split timeline deal...but then that only served to introduce it's own set of issues that we've complained about so oops :V

[Diogenes]

20 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

because if the series could fix any of its problems by simply rebooting it,

I don't know why I waste my time on this shit if I'm just going to be ignored.

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I don't know why I waste my time on this shit if I'm just going to be ignored.

If you're just gonna get upset because I don't agree with you, then ok. You put an idea out, on a public forum, and I didn't agree with it. Don't understand what you're getting upset about.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

If you're just gonna get upset because I don't agree with you, then ok.

It's more how I say, in nearly every post on the subject, that I fully understand that a reboot on its own will not solve the series' problems, but you're still going to act like that's what I'm claiming.

Feel free to continue arguing with what you imagine I've said, but I'm done wasting my time on it.

[Kuzu]

4 hours ago, Diogenes said:

"Soft" being the key word. A soft reboot isn't really much of anything, the way I see it; it might include a change of direction, but without giving anything up, it's just adding to the mess the series has become. Anything a soft reboot ends up doing has to be squared with the games that came before it, because it's all still one continuity.

A proper reboot would sweep all that stuff away. It's a chance to start fresh, to get rid of what didn't work, to retool what did (or almost did), and to build new ideas into the foundation of the series. It allows for a level of flexibility and freedom that you can't get if you're still beholden to a quarter century of sketchy writing. That alone doesn't guarantee success of course, you still need the right people with the right ideas, but cleaning up and starting fresh can give them the space to do their best work rather than being held back by the existing continuity's problems.

Ok, THIS is what you said right? You said this. I didn't imagine it. You actually said this on the last page. 

 

So...unless you have an entirely different meaning of "sweeping all that stuff away" means, what else is supposed to be taken from that? Maybe it would do you some good to focus on the whole post instead of taking one part out of context that you didn't like and getting upset over it.

[Wraith]

47 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

what would interest me is them doing a new interesting visual style telling new stories, sure that would mean going back and telling some stories over but i'm interested in a new take on those stories. Not to just fix things,  but to do new shit with them. Hopefully good shit.

 

I actually think the series could use a change in terms of it's visuals/animation and it's fun to think about how to tighten up the stories of some of the older titles. I'm not gonna lie and say I've never thought about it. You don't have to look around hard to see me expressing interest in a Sonic Adventure remake.

But I just want to be done with old shit, really. That's it, lol. Some games, characters and concepts are relics of the time they were created and that's okay with me. Makes them more interesting.  

 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

There's nothing to reboot in this series. It's so inconsistent with it's lore that the only thing a "reboot" would do is make characters react to things we already know about as if it were the first time, and that's not particularly enticing. The games have never really given a fuck about the story and it's completely unlikely that they're ever going to start without massive changes in staff and management, in which case there are more much, much important things to discuss.

[thumbs13]

Do we really need a bible for that, though? Writing it down just makes it easier for us to blame them when they inevitably break those rules. 

 

[Kuzu]

I do think a visual style change is necessary; we've been with the Unleashed aesthetic since 2008. Something new wouldn't hurt. 

[StaticMania]

6 minutes ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

It's so inconsistent with it's lore that the only thing a "reboot" would do is make characters react to things we already know about as if it were the first time, and that's not particularly enticing.

Or they could do new stuff. The only things that would actually need to stay are the Chaos Emeralds and the characters already knew what those were.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

You mean like exactly what Colors and Unleashed were?

[StaticMania]

If Generations, Lost World, and Forces didn't just bring everyone, including established villains" back out of nowhere...I'd be inclined to say "Yes, exactly like that."

But no, something actually different and then introducing those characters back into the series.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

But then, that's implying the same wouldn't happen with this mythical reboot, which I'm sure it would.

[StaticMania]

They're not confident and just backpedaling, of course I would have to assume they wouldn't do that again...otherwise what's the point of even saying so?

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I do think a visual style change is necessary; we've been with the Unleashed aesthetic since 2008. Something new wouldn't hurt. 

Actually, it has changed a little around 2013, with the most saccharine aspects dialed back in 2017.

[SBR2]

Man where is all this amazing in depth lore at because I've only ever seen ideas that last 1 or 2 games and are never important again. Since like the original games.

[StaticMania]

Any lore that's actually "in depth" as you put it, is all in your head. Seriously, what's the point of that? No say anything about depth.

[Osmium]

Modern Sonic these days is barely a continuity anyway, every game is essentially self-contained. All this talk about reboots is a waste of time, just make a good game and be done with it. Fuck's sake. 

[tailsBOOM!]

Haven't read the full thread, but I'd like to bring up that I'm glad that they don't follow the official one.

The rest is equally bad.