What are you willing to sacrifice to make Sonic popular again?

[Sonic Fan J]

The thread title/question came to me after some discussion over on the movie thread where understanding one of the posters viewpoint better came down to realizing how much they are willing to sacrifice for Sonic to be popular again. As someone who just wants good Sonic content again with enough success to keep him around it was a fairly interesting thing to learn. I've always been of the camp that Sonic needs to be gotten right to succeed, so it never crossed my mind to sacrifice what makes Sonic Sonic to restore his popularity. The concept is nigh alien to me to be honest but it did leave me with an interesting question; the title to this thread in particular.

Me personally, as I said above I would not sacrifice anything for Sonic to regain his popularity. I personally believe that if Sonic is handled with care and passion, with good gameplay, good level design and art, good writing, an engaging adventure and narrative, tasteful and believable characterization, a lack of relying on cheap meta humor, and a good balance of levity and urgency that Sonic can be successful. Sure it's a lot, but when done right it would impress critics which would help raise awareness and good praise and then you would just need it to be advertised with as much passion for the game as it was made with. In short, I believe hard work leading to good execution and content would be enough to get Sonic back on the right side of people's opinions and into the public eye again. I believe even the general death of the mascot platformer can be overcome just by making a good game.

At no point would I want to sacrifice anything that makes Sonic Sonic to restore his popularity. To me at that point I have to question is it Sonic that is popular again or is it some facsimile of him that has become popular? But again that is just me, what about everyone else? What are you willing to sacrifice to make Sonic popular again?

[DabigRG]

Sacrifice? Why should we have to?

Eh, idk. Maybe appealing to the more cynical and hard to please fans?

[Wraith]

I'm not sure what I'm being asked when they try something different every game anyway. Like, anything I can think of is something they actually tried tossing at some point and it still remains as popular of a series as it's always been.

It's not a blockbuster franchise but I don't need it to be. I don't care about Sonic being 'validated' or w/e

[Indigo Rush]

I'd sacrifice the fattest calf; a red heifer without spot, wherein there is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke. 

Spoiler

I'd be okay with a hard reset, as long as the bulk of the cast are re-introduced gradually and given similar, if not better backstories. Shadow needs some retooling, especially. That should give whoever has the reins some time rethink the lore so it's a bit more approachable and consistent.

 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

In my humble opinion, if you have to gut Sonic of everything that makes him Sonic, what’s even the point?

Sonic became a media icon for a reason, you don’t survive this long after so many blunders if something in the core concept isn’t good. it shows a disturbing lack of faith in him by executives if you feel the need to destroy everything unique that got him to this point to try make him a “multi media icon”.

[Tracker_TD]

See this right here? This is one of my favourite games ever. It's really fun, has an extremely charming graphical style, a great character design and charming world-building. And good gameplay, of course. 

]

And then they remade it, and when out its way to make something that just appealed to the masses more. His design took on more of a "Sonic OC" look, the graphical style just went to bog-standard expected full 3D instead of updating the cool blend of 2D and 3D, and they gave it an extremely generic dub to top it off. And that's keeping in mind that redesign they went with was almost worse. All this came about because Namco wanted Klonoa to be popular, rather than recognising all the things people loved about the original. And to be fair - the redesign was actually introduced in Klonoa 2, where it arguably looked even more like a Sonic OC, and to be brutally honest I don't think either redesign is the worst thing ever despite being more of a blatant attempt to hit on Sonic's popularity - but my point is that they prioritised trying to make him popular over staying true to what people loved. And arguably it worked even less than the original in that regard, despite being on a platform like the Wii! 

Likewise, I don't want them to sacrifice the things I love about Sonic just for the sake of getting more sales or being "in with the trends" - not that I don't think Sonic can't do both (I love the world and design of Classic Sonic, and they're fairly popular too). If I were a SEGA shareholder, sure, but I'm not - I just want good content, as said in the OP. 

[Lord-Dreamerz]

28 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I'd be okay with a hard reset, as long as the bulk of the cast are re-introduced gradually and given similar, if not better backstories.

I kinda agree with this! I'm not sure one could call it a sacrifice exactly... But yeah I wouldn't mind a reboot for Modern Sonic and getting rid of the pure randomness of the series in order to instead focus the series onto more story driven story arcs that go across 2 or 3 games commonly... And have actual origin stories for many of the cast who never had them before. Sonic has never commonly been about these things in the past for the most part outside of the comics... But I think as long they got the right people to work on this stuff, then I might really enjoy that new direction! I guess another thing I might sacrifice is Sonic games coming out as often if that would result in high quality games in the style I talked about above. The Sonic series has never really cared to overly strongly about it's lore/canon past a shallow level... I think changing that aspect could lead to awesomeness! And if the idea failed hard? I suppose they could always just go back to how things were before without much effort.

[Indigo Rush]

Yeah. I think it'd be helpful to not have to spend more than two paragraphs explaining Shadow's origin story or which game Silver "canonically" is introduced in. Then there's Eggman Nega. Too much needless complexity is the bane of this series' lore, and it's why I can't be bothered to care about it anymore. Sonic Forces swapping Classic Sonic's origin from being a younger Sonic to being Sonic from another dimension without any pomp and circumstance is about as much a symptom of the problem as you can point to. I also love how Sonic Generations gives Blaze a biography that describes her role in Sonic Rush, but then she gives off some flavor text in Crisis City talking about how she remembers being there. That's a yikes from me, beans.

[Wraith]

I think a Thor Ragnarok type 'clean up' game might be a more effective route for that sort of thing than a reboot, if only because spending 5 or 6 games reintroducing characters and concepts doesn't sound all that exciting to me. That's just personal bias speaking though. If the thing we're 'sacrificing' is randomly throwing shit out then yeah alright. That's not really a big 'sacrifice' to begin with.

I would just hope that the series doesn't get so caught up in consistency that it's not afraid to keep exploring new ideas. 

 

[Indigo Rush]

22 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I think a Thor Ragnarok type 'clean up' game might be a more effective route for that sort of thing than a reboot, if only because spending 5 or 6 games reintroducing characters and concepts doesn't sound all that exciting to me.

So, I'm not familiar. What would that entail? Is that similar to the "Genesis Wave" from the Archie Comics just before they were discontinued?

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, Indigo Rush said:

So, I'm not familiar. What would that entail? Is that similar to the "Genesis Wave" from the Archie Comics just before they were discontinued?

Kiiind of? Basically 'Ragnarok' rebooted Thor by using a cataclysmic event like the Genesis wave instead of just starting from point one. The 'survivors' were characters and concepts they wanted to keep and stuff that happened to them in the movie forced their characters to develop into something more likable. I know people are generally tired of space-time shenanigans and massive stakes but I don't really want a reboot in the traditional sense so I was trying to think of a compromise. One last game with crazy stakes that serves as a bridge between the old world and a new one. One last love letter to the games that got us this far whether they be good or...not so good, haha.

But that's just an idea. Starting fresh is valid too.

[SaturnWolf]

I honestly think a reboot plus better writers plus a stronger focus on continuity would do us some good. I feel like part of the problem is that the game side of this franchise doesn't really care much for continuity but still wants to have super story-driven games like Sonic Adventure 2 and what I imagine Forces wanted to be. Which, in and of itself isn't inherently a bad thing, but it makes it rather hard to care in cases like Forces that rely heavily on past games.

[Indigo Rush]

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Kiiind of? Basically 'Ragnarok' rebooted Thor by using a cataclysmic event like the Genesis wave instead of just starting from point one. The 'survivors' were characters and concepts they wanted to keep and stuff that happened to them in the movie forced their characters to develop into something more likable. I know people are generally tired of space-time shenanigans and massive stakes but I don't really want a reboot in the traditional sense so I was trying to think of a compromise. One last game with crazy stakes that serves as a bridge between the old world and a new one. One last love letter to the games that got us this far whether they be good or...not so good, haha.

 But that's just an idea. Starting fresh is valid too.

Ah, word. In my opinion, if Sonic Adventure 3 were ever in the cards, that's the one I'd use this for.

One last Big Sonic Game™ to usher in something fresh and less complex.

[Red Hot Jack]

#MakeSonicGreatAgain

...Sorry.

Anyway, can Cream the Rabbit be our animal sacrifice to the Gods to ask them to make Sonic a quality series? Please say yes.

[Zaysho]

1 hour ago, Indigo Rush said:

Yeah. I think it'd be helpful to not have to spend more than two paragraphs explaining Shadow's origin story or which game Silver "canonically" is introduced in. Then there's Eggman Nega. Too much needless complexity is the bane of this series' lore, and it's why I can't be bothered to care about it anymore.

I'm of two minds of this sort of thing, though I admit my investment in Sonic pretty much tanked when Sega pulled the plug on Archie so it's legitimately difficult for me to care if they did toss everything out for a massive reboot/retooling. I see the value in simplifying the continuity, cutting the fat and making it generally more accessible, I really do. But I also believe the series doesn't really need to elaborate or set things in stone now that they've passed. It's an episodic action-adventure series that moves from one thing to the other, the extended cast are just regular fixtures in the continuity, I kind of want to see them do new things.

For example, I really don't care about Shadow's backstory in 2019. It happened and was resolved, perhaps in a way even I can agree could have been handled better or use some simplifying, but what relevance does that have for him in any of his game appearances after 2005? The only places I even see recalling his history in the last five years are the original comic and the current one, and both times it's used by other characters just to make him get his head back on straight. I feel like he's another character that casual observers accept as being a part of Sonic's friend group at this point and he doesn't really do anything of note aside from the very occasional assist or he's competing with Sonic briefly.

That's just one example, but I don't personally care about the lore or anything like that anymore. It's a gnarled mess, but I kind of like it and I feel like there's enough room for me to take and leave what I want and not feel like I'm missing anything. It's in a much better position than something like Kingdom Hearts, where a random concert dropped important story details that aren't in any games (especially any the Western market would have gotten). I'd rather just see the characters and their interactions shine through in new and fun ways, because I love the way many of them play off with each other, and if there are enough mix-ups it could be really refreshing to see in the stories.

tldr, I'm not concerned about the stories or the characters. I'd probably just give up the recent gameplay styles/designs and go back to the Adventure style because I'm shameless and think it's a good enough baseless to improve from.

[Dejimon11]

I think the thing that I would like the most from this series is coherency. As @Indigo Rush already pointed out with Classic being from another dimension, Silver's and Shadow's backstories and the Nega situation is pretty much a giant headache. Part of me feels that's just me nitpicking but at the same time they but that out there because they expected us to care sooo idk.

Besides that i think they just need to make good games and not try to capitalize on current trends without understand why they worked so they can just make a quick buck. It's what led to things like Shadow(the game), secret rings & Black Knight, the Werehog etc. And the point of alternating sonic to the something he's not just to appeal to he mass audience is exactly what got us Boom in the first place.

I'm all for Sonic doing something new and taking a chance but there's also a point where they gotta remember what Sonic is and what Sonic isn't. 

[Wraith]

7 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

I'm of two minds of this sort of thing, though I admit my investment in Sonic pretty much tanked when Sega pulled the plug on Archie so it's legitimately difficult for me to care if they did toss everything out for a massive reboot/retooling. I see the value in simplifying the continuity, cutting the fat and making it generally more accessible, I really do. But I also believe the series doesn't really need to elaborate or set things in stone now that they've passed. It's an episodic action-adventure series that moves from one thing to the other, the extended cast are just regular fixtures in the continuity, I kind of want to see them do new things.

For example, I really don't care about Shadow's backstory in 2019. It happened and was resolved, perhaps in a way even I can agree could have been handled better or use some simplifying, but what relevance does that have for him in any of his game appearances after 2005? The only places I even see recalling his history in the last five years are the original comic and the current one, and both times it's used by other characters just to make him get his head back on straight. I feel like he's another character that casual observers accept as being a part of Sonic's friend group at this point and he doesn't really do anything of note aside from the very occasional assist or he's competing with Sonic briefly.

That's just one example, but I don't personally care about the lore or anything like that anymore. It's a gnarled mess, but I kind of like it and I feel like there's enough room for me to take and leave what I want and not feel like I'm missing anything. It's in a much better position than something like Kingdom Hearts, where a random concert dropped important story details that aren't in any games (especially any the Western market would have gotten). I'd rather just see the characters and their interactions shine through in new and fun ways, because I love the way many of them play off with each other, and if there are enough mix-ups it could be really refreshing to see in the stories.

tldr, I'm not concerned about the stories or the characters. I'd probably just give up the recent gameplay styles/designs and go back to the Adventure style because I'm shameless and think it's a good enough baseless to improve from.

Yeah that's another thing. We're kind of already moving away from what would be popular to what we would like from the series. Sonic's popularity isn't really in danger due to the lore that they largely ignore in every new game. 

[Indigo Rush]

I'll readily admit that the lore isn't the most important thing to focus on, and I agree that a more episodic action-adventure setup where each entry is self-contained is probably the best route they've ever taken. It's just that a less convoluted long-term narrative to reference is something that I think would be 'nice' to have, and would make the barrier of entry for becoming a more involved fan a little more friendly. It's part of why I was interested in Archie Sonic again after so many years, they had a specific issue number where you could get started on and not have to worry about the hundreds of issues before it. 

Just my two cents. 

[MetalSkulkBane]

I'm willing to sacrifice Pontac and Graf. And all over usages memes. Constant presence of Green Hill Zone and whoever ordered to to put Classic Sonic in Forces.

It'll be tough but I believe in us, we'll prevail.

[Scar]

Sacrifice to make popular?

The Sonic franchise, despite the eldritch abomination it has recently become, is still popular. Even utter garbage like Forces manages to sell well enough to make SEGA a pretty dime.

So, there isn't anything I would say I'd sacrifice to make the franchise popular. There is however, plenty I would sacrifice to make the franchise good again. For starters, the cast. The cast needs to be culled in a serious way. If merchandise is so goddamn important relegate them to the side lines. But let's be honest. Characters like Silver, Sticks, Big, Cream, Charmy, Bark, Bean, Fang (even Shadow, Rouge and the like to be brutally honest) etc. don't add anything to a franchise. Personally, I would slowly phase them out of existence. Stop mentioning their names, stop making their merchandise, and wait for them to fade out from our memories. 

There needs to be rules for characters to remain relevant. First and foremost - do they as a character have anything that could be made into unique gameplay that fits with the franchise. Secondly, could they be a relevant/interesting supporting character? This one is tenuous at best for me even. Ideally, I'd like most frequently appearing characters to be playable in some form. If not immediately, at some point. Think: Sonic Mania Plus.

Then there's the gameplay. I've talked at length about what I want them to do with that, so I can't be bothered to repeat myself.

[Zaysho]

22 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I'll readily admit that the lore isn't the most important thing to focus on, and I agree that a more episodic action-adventure setup where each entry is self-contained is probably the best route they've ever taken. It's just that a less convoluted long-term narrative to reference is something that I think would be 'nice' to have, and would make the barrier of entry for becoming a more involved fan a little more friendly. It's part of why I was interested in Archie Sonic again after so many years, they had a specific issue number where you could get started on and not have to worry about the hundreds of issues before it. 

Just my two cents. 

That's fair. To me, I've never really seen it as a big barrier, but I admit I'm sitting in a position that's way different from the casual observer or new fan. I kind of like the current format because the games don't have to worry about that, you just see these cool characters doing exciting things (well, in theory) and there's almost no need to dredge up the old stuff. If they did, it could probably be an opportunity to retcon some things without completely disregarding what people liked, since the series has kind of done that too, but I get changes like that aren't any more appealing than rebooting things.

The current setup does come with its own caveats though, I admit. It doesn't necessarily just go from one episode to the next, rather it snowballs to them, picking up little bits and pieces as it goes along (at least if it was well-received). I can imagine the confusion of a fan who hadn't played anything since the classics and decided to jump into Forces, only to see something weird like Sonic is powered by little aliens or whatever. So I definitely understand where you're coming from. I wouldn't mind a sort of "Genesis Wave" type of compromise that cleans up that aspect of the series.

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

That's fair. To me, I've never really seen it as a big barrier, but I admit I'm sitting in a position that's way different from the casual observer or new fan. I kind of like the current format because the games don't have to worry about that, you just see these cool characters doing exciting things (well, in theory) and there's almost no need to dredge up the old stuff. If they did, it could probably be an opportunity to retcon some things without completely disregarding what people liked, since the series has kind of done that too, but I get changes like that aren't any more appealing than rebooting things.

The current setup does come with its own caveats though, I admit. It doesn't necessarily just go from one episode to the next, rather it snowballs to them, picking up little bits and pieces as it goes along (at least if it was well-received). I can imagine the confusion of a fan who hadn't played anything since the classics and decided to jump into Forces, only to see something weird like Sonic is powered by little aliens or whatever. So I definitely understand where you're coming from. I wouldn't mind a sort of "Genesis Wave" type of compromise that cleans up that aspect of the series.

I'm actually where you're at and want the series to remain 'episodic'for the most part but this is about making 'sacrifices' for the sake of popularity, right? 

When I look at it from that perspective and look at the franchises that are popular now, giving the worldbuilding types a little more to chew on might not be such a bad thing. I think the series could remain largely episodic but still throw people a bone here and there. 

[Shadowlax]

Sonic's popular, but the humor the question. I would throw all the story shit I like out of the window if we could tell some new stories with out having to kind of be withholden to some old lore stuff. 

Again, I think how you fix any sonic popularity problems at this point is making a good games. But I think trying to create like a new world and lore that actually was consistent was kinda interesting. 

 

[Lord-Dreamerz]

51 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I'll readily admit that the lore isn't the most important thing to focus on, and I agree that a more episodic action-adventure setup where each entry is self-contained is probably the best route they've ever taken. It's just that a less convoluted long-term narrative to reference is something that I think would be 'nice' to have, and would make the barrier of entry for becoming a more involved fan a little more friendly. It's part of why I was interested in Archie Sonic again after so many years, they had a specific issue number where you could get started on and not have to worry about the hundreds of issues before it. 

Just my two cents. 

Honestly despite some fans who don't think they would enjoy the idea of more focus on longer story arc based games... even tho Sonic games have never really done it, so I don't think they have any good grounds to fear what the results might be if it actually happened. As I said in my other post I'd prefer for them to get rid of the episodic one shot self-contained stories as that just gives them a excuse to assume the stories don't matter. I want to be able to care about the stories and lore in this series... I'm tired of the series not caring about itself.

[Zaysho]

20 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I'm actually where you're at and want the series to remain 'episodic'for the most part but this is about making 'sacrifices' for the sake of popularity, right? 

When I look at it from that perspective and look at the franchises that are popular now, giving the worldbuilding types a little more to chew on might not be such a bad thing. I think the series could remain largely episodic but still throw people a bone here and there. 

Yeah, I agree. Guess I was straying from the original point. I'm fine with things as they currently are as far as narrative goes because I don't see it as the thing that's really going to make or break the series at this stage. I've always been more interested in it just being written and presented better.

I'm down with that though, since I think it can be fun to refresh the background and give the games a sense of progression without the games being an ongoing saga or anything.