A question about the Classic characters

[Splash the Otter]

On 2/21/2019 at 6:39 AM, Jack the Shadow said:

And I like how the modern and classic series have each a unique cast, it helps makes them distinct and exclusive.

I guess you're right, but I still don't like having to choose between two sets of characters...

[Red Hot Jack]

21 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

I guess you're right, but I still don't like having to choose between two sets of characters...

IMO it's best if they don't mix up at this point. People absolutely hated Classic Sonic in Forces, because it was boring to mix classic and modern gameplay again and especially having 2 Sonics at the same time. There is appeal for both modern and classic, so they will keep doing that, multiple sub-series. Classic is basically a successful version of Boom, the sub-series that SEGA wanted. If they bring Modern Mighty and Modern Ray into the fold, okay… but it's kind of pointless considering they have 2 series, and there is already a huge modern cast which is underused.

[Splash the Otter]

So...is it possible for the Classic cast to get any of the things Modern characters get? I don't want them to get the short end of the stick just because they're Classic.

[Tracker_TD]

9 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

So...is it possible for the Classic cast to get any of the things Modern characters get? I don't want them to get the short end of the stick just because they're Classic.

They don't really... need them, honestly. I don't find giving them a voice necessary, and something as mundane as "coloured eyes" is something that I can go either way on. Being playable in 3D is a different kettle of fish given Classic Sonic's already been in a few 3D games, albeit not mainline ones.

[Splash the Otter]

1 hour ago, Tracker_TD said:

I don't find giving them a voice necessary,

I do. You can only tell certain kinds of stories without dialogue (imagine if nobody spoke in Sonic Adventure) and I hate the whole "Classic characters don't talk" thing anyway.

BTW, my whole point with all of this is that I don't want the Classic cast to be treated as "less than" the Modern cast. I know it's better than when they didn't appear at all, but it's still upsetting.

 

[Tracker_TD]

15 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

I do. You can only tell certain kinds of stories without dialogue (imagine if nobody spoke in Sonic Adventure) and I hate the whole "Classic characters don't talk" thing anyway.

BTW, my whole point with all of this is that I don't want the Classic cast to be treated as "less than" the Modern cast. I know it's better than when they didn't appear at all, but it's still upsetting.

 

I mean... you'd probably need to retool some stuff, but I honestly can imagine SA without speech. It'd be a lot less ear-grating for one thing, but the stuff that happens in SA1 is fairly rudimentary and the dialogue doesn't so much help convey it as just add window dressing to it because "look at us we're 128-bit now". The hardest part to convey would be the Tikal stuff but I don't think it'd be impossible. "Storytelling needs speech" is ironically a fairly limited few of things - there's probably a few indie games that'd serve my point but they're not coming to mind right now. 

Whether it'd be better is subjective, but I don't think it's necessary. 

[Diogenes]

7 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

I do. You can only tell certain kinds of stories without dialogue (imagine if nobody spoke in Sonic Adventure)

Dialogue doesn't necessarily require voice acting, and no series is able to tell every kind of story anyway. I'm not really arguing for no voice acting ever, but I'd say you're underestimating other ways of communicating a story.

And y'know, I do wonder how much of/how well SA's story could be told without dialogue. I'm sure some things are more efficiently communicated with it, but I'm not sure if it's ever really necessary to get the point across.

[SaturnWolf]

1 hour ago, Splash the Otter said:

I do. You can only tell certain kinds of stories without dialogue (imagine if nobody spoke in Sonic Adventure) and I hate the whole "Classic characters don't talk" thing anyway.

I mean, some of the most powerful moments in that game came from the moments in Gamma's story where not a word was spoken. Characters' body language, expressions and other things going on on the screen are very powerful tools of story-telling.

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

And y'know, I do wonder how much of/how well SA's story could be told without dialogue. I'm sure some things are more efficiently communicated with it, but I'm not sure if it's ever really necessary to get the point across.

Amy and Knuckles' stories actually do require dialogue...and the Tikal flashbacks.

You can do Knuckles' story without dialogue, but regarding his whole deal...it'd mean he would have to care about his past (which he doesn't).

More imagery necessary, it's only so hard to convey apathy to backstory when it comes to silentness.

[Tracker_TD]

14 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Amy and Knuckles' stories actually do require dialogue...and the Tikal flashbacks.

You can do Knuckles' story without dialogue, but regarding his whole deal...it'd mean he would have to care about his past (which he doesn't).

More imagery necessary, it's only so hard to convey apathy to backstory when it comes to silentness.

Do they though? Again, I'm struggling to think of particular problem points that really, absolutely couldn't be overcome with clever use of setting, emotion, framing, body language and so forth. Like Amy and the bird for instance - we don't need them to tell us the bird has a Chaos Emerald, we can see that. The mission to find the bird's parents might be harder to frame but if needs be you could pull something like Mania's thought bubble moment - I don't think that'd be necessary, just show the bird distressed and Amy decides to tag it along with her, but you get my gist. 

[StaticMania]

But...how would you portray Amy's independence plot point without dialogue?

You totally could in a stand alone story but not when she's 1 of 6.

I guess it doesn't matter overall though.

[Tracker_TD]

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

But...how would you portray Amy's independence plot point without dialogue?

You totally could in a stand alone story but not when she's 1 of 6.

I guess it doesn't matter overall though.

I think there's ways to show Amy's growing independence without needing her to say "I've gotta do it myself!" or something.

[Splash the Otter]

As I said before, I'm opposed to the Classic cast being silent on principle. Not only does it limit the kind of stories you can tell, it's also basically saying "These characters can't have this because they're Classic!" and I hate that!

[StaticMania]

4 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

I think there's ways to show Amy's growing independence without needing her to say "I've gotta do it myself!" or something.

With more time. She only says it after getting free and already trying to pass the bird onto Sonic.

It just needs more focus or rewriting what's already there or...it doesn't matter that much to the story to keep it around.

That's an option, she gets her resolve pretty much immediately anyway.

[SaturnWolf]

54 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

As I said before, I'm opposed to the Classic cast being silent on principle. Not only does it limit the kind of stories you can tell, it's also basically saying "These characters can't have this because they're Classic!" and I hate that!

Not really? There are thousands upon thousands of silent films that are considered classics, and again, as Tracker has mentioned, things like framing, body language, expression, setting, etc. can be just as powerful as any dialogue, if not more so, because of the old rule this franchise really needs to learn more, "Show, don't tell."

[Diogenes]

58 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

As I said before, I'm opposed to the Classic cast being silent on principle. Not only does it limit the kind of stories you can tell, it's also basically saying "These characters can't have this because they're Classic!" and I hate that!

Rather than see it as "they can't have it", consider it more as "they don't need it". More is not always better, and voice acting is not inherently better than no voice acting. Mania Adventures managed to produce more likeable versions of its characters and tell a more satisfying story without a single word than Forces, which was packed with voice acting.

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, StaticMania said:

But...how would you portray Amy's independence plot point without dialogue?

You totally could in a stand alone story but not when she's 1 of 6.

I guess it doesn't matter overall though.

Was it really even a plot point though?

[StaticMania]

Just now, DabigRG said:

Was it really even a plot point though?

Yes. Like from level 2 onward.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Was it really even a plot point though?

It was, yes.

I don't think it'd be that hard to communicate without dialogue, though. It's pretty well built into her gameplay; she spends every level running away from Zero, then has a boss fight where she confronts him. Combine that with cutscenes of her going to Sonic for help and being saved by him early on versus being on her own and forced to fend for herself later and I think all the main points of her arc are covered.

[Red Hot Jack]

I think there are lots of ways to make the characters show their personality and not just dialogues. Mania and Adventures are the examples, they are full of personality. Plus, Sega does this silent thing a bit for retro and nostalgia purposes, and a bit because there is demand for it. That said, I hope the next cartoon, either classic or Modern, does have dialogues...

[Your Vest Friend]

To me it's just dumb to keep the protagonist silent when that was clearly not what he's supposed to be. You might be able to excuse it for classic (even though he should also have dialogue by rights), but don't try to lump it on modern.

[Splash the Otter]

2 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

To me it's just dumb to keep the protagonist silent when that was clearly not what he's supposed to be. You might be able to excuse it for classic (even though he should also have dialogue by rights), but don't try to lump it on modern.

This. If the Modern cast can speak, the Classic cast should be allowed to as well. It's only fair!

[Pengi]

Classic Tails speaking in Sonic Generations didn't exactly do the character any favours. 

 

The series is riddled with infamously bad dialogue and annoyingly voiced characters who won't shut the hell up. Even the latest racing game has people hoping for an option to turn off the dialogue.

 

This is reason #347 why the Mario series is more universal and charming than all of its competitors.

[StaticMania]

9 minutes ago, Pengi said:

This is reason #347 why the Mario series is more universal and charming than all of its competitors.

Just Sonic you mean.

And apparently people really dislike the Super Mario Advance series for having voice clips galore...lame.

[SaturnWolf]

7 hours ago, Splash the Otter said:

This. If the Modern cast can speak, the Classic cast should be allowed to as well. It's only fair!

Again, it's less than they're not allowed to and more that they don't really need to. Quite frankly I prefer the more creative methods of story telling in Mania Adventures to the constant chatter of Heroes, Forces and TSR.