A question about the Classic characters

[Splash the Otter]

So I'm never going to get what I want? That's heartbreaking, to say the least.

[Pengi]

1 hour ago, Splash the Otter said:

Listen. I want to see the Classic series reach its full potential, and I don't want it to limit itself with a stupid "no talking" rule. I really don't think I'm being unreasonable by asking for this.

The Classic Sonic off-shoot of the brand specifically exists as a nostalgic throwback to the Mega Drive games, when the series was at its critical and commercial height.

To start tacking on the barnacles that damaged the mainline Sonic series would be poor messaging. A sub-brand needs its own identity.

[SaturnWolf]

I don't think Classic Sonic would really be any better if he started talking. Especially considering how awful the writing in this franchise tends to be and how we'd just have another damn "this voice actor is the best" war on our hands. We've already had two of those and we're likely to see another once we hear Ben's take on Sonic, and quite frankly I'd rather avoid another one of those.

I'm going to reiterate: just because a character CAN speak, doesn't mean they SHOULD.

As Pengi said, Sonic's already struggling with an identity crisis. Look at Sonic Generations 3DS where the two Sonic's have virtual zero differences between them. Do you really want more of that? Because that would just make the problem worse.

Let each branch of Sonic be unique. And if that means less cringeworthy dialogue and less constant, needless chatter that only amounts to pointing out things we can clearly see, then so be it.

[Splash the Otter]

12 minutes ago, Pengi said:

The Classic Sonic off-shoot of the brand specifically exists as a nostalgic throwback to the Mega Drive games, when the series was at its critical and commercial height.

To start tacking on the barnacles that damaged the mainline Sonic series would be poor messaging. A sub-brand needs its own identity.

Really? And what would those "barnacles" be exactly?

9 minutes ago, DreamSaturn said:

I don't think Classic Sonic would really be any better if he started talking. Especially considering how awful the writing in this franchise tends to be and how we'd just have another damn "this voice actor is the best" war on our hands. We've already had two of those and we're likely to see another once we hear Ben's take on Sonic, and quite frankly I'd rather avoid another one of those.

I'm going to reiterate: just because a character CAN speak, doesn't mean they SHOULD.

As Pengi said, Sonic's already struggling with an identity crisis. Look at Sonic Generations 3DS where the two Sonic's have virtual zero differences between them. Do you really want more of that? Because that would just make the problem worse.

Let each branch of Sonic be unique. And if that means less cringeworthy dialogue and less constant, needless chatter that only amounts to pointing out things we can clearly see, then so be it.

This isn't worth discussing any further. I want the Classic cast to speak, and that is that!

[SaturnWolf]

Well, all I can say is, don't ask questions you aren't prepared to hear the answer to.

[Sonic Fan J]

2 hours ago, Splash the Otter said:

So I'm never going to get what I want? That's heartbreaking, to say the least.

Hopefully not, but in the current state of the franchise it isn't likely to happen anytime soon. But most of us are in that same boat to an extent and I honestly think what you want is far more likely to happen to what I want.

Spoiler

If you must know, a game using the Toei art style for the basis with a sense of adventure like Unleashed with the emotion of Adventure 2 all topped off nicely with graphics like Dragon Ball FighterZ to really make the Toei style shine. Best of all, this would require full voice work to seal the deal for me and that is using the Toei style which is the Classic branch. But trust me, SEGA as they are would never even put in the effort to let the thought form in their head to do anything like it.

At this point the answer to your question is a simple not now. The future could hold anything though so I wouldn't give up on it happening ever, just don't expect it to happen now due to the current situation the franchise is in.

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Pengi said:

The Classic Sonic off-shoot of the brand specifically exists as a nostalgic throwback to the Mega Drive games, when the series was at its critical and commercial height.

To start tacking on the barnacles that damaged the mainline Sonic series would be poor messaging. A sub-brand needs its own identity.

you guys know this character used to talk in the media that allowed for it to be all the time, even back then right

he talks in sonic CD

'voice acting' is a storytelling tool and not some weird modern sonic anime shonen thing

[Sonic Fan J]

He actually is pretty vocal in a number of arcade games and the OVA especially. However, since his return SEGA has only presented him as a pantomime character even when they gave voices to Classic Tails and Eggman. SEGA are the ones pushing for the pantomime approach right now, and seeing as it's being accepted it's likely to become part of the identity of that branch of the franchise no matter how inaccurate to classics it actually is.

[Splash the Otter]

6 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

He actually is pretty vocal in a number of arcade games and the OVA especially. However, since his return SEGA has only presented him as a pantomime character even when they gave voices to Classic Tails and Eggman. SEGA are the ones pushing for the pantomime approach right now, and seeing as it's being accepted it's likely to become part of the identity of that branch of the franchise no matter how inaccurate to classics it actually is.

Well as long as it doesn't stay that way forever...

[Iko]

I would like to see classic characters into modern games and modern characters into classic games.

I hate this splitting of the franchise, it should be just an art style thing and be all the same universe.

I'm interested in seeing classic/modern redesigns for characters who never had one (there are some good fan-arts around, some of them look very cool... I remember classic Shadow and Blaze but there was someone else too).

[Pengi]

On 2/25/2019 at 4:30 AM, Wraith said:

you guys know this character used to talk in the media that allowed for it to be all the time, even back then right

he talks in sonic CD

'voice acting' is a storytelling tool and not some weird modern sonic anime shonen thing

Sonic Mania was an intentional throwback to the traditional Sonic games of the Mega Drive era. The unique selling point was that it was a return to the original look and formula, with none of the trappings of the later games in the series. There's a good portion of the video game audience who hold the original Mega Drive series in high regard, but fell off the series with the later entries, when it became a different animal entirely. Sonic Mania was, by design, a game that would appeal not just to the hardcore fans and kid audience, but also the 30-something audience who grew up playing the original games.

As such, voice acting wouldn't really fit in a Sonic Mania style game, it would be antithetical to its mission statement. 

[Splash the Otter]

31 minutes ago, Pengi said:

Sonic Mania was an intentional throwback to the traditional Sonic games of the Mega Drive era. The unique selling point was that it was a return to the original look and formula, with none of the trappings of the later games in the series. There's a good portion of the video game audience who hold the original Mega Drive series in high regard, but fell off the series with the later entries, when it became a different animal entirely. Sonic Mania was, by design, a game that would appeal not just to the hardcore fans and kid audience, but also the 30-something audience who grew up playing the original games.

I get that, but here's the thing: I know the Classic series can be so much more than it currently is, and I don't want it to hold itself back just to please a subset of fans.

[DabigRG]

5 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

I get that, but here's the thing: I know the Classic series can be so much more than it currently is, and I don't want it to hold itself back just to please a subset of fans.

I think you stumbled unto why it's hard to really give much of a thought on this right now: the Classic subseries proper is still only one (or two, if you count Adventures) entry in at the moment and thus is open to whatever SEGA decides to do with it. And since the next entry is likely a Mania 2, talks of voice acting is still very far from being considered.

[StaticMania]

The series in general is already holding itself back to please fans, so it's whatever that Mania is doing it.

[Pengi]

1 hour ago, Splash the Otter said:

I get that, but here's the thing: I know the Classic series can be so much more than it currently is, and I don't want it to hold itself back just to please a subset of fans.

The fact that Mania was the most critically acclaimed Sonic game in over 15 years would suggest that it's not being held back.

Not every ingredient goes in every recipe. The Classic Sonic sub-brand exists to deliver a traditional Sonic experience, harkening back to the series' heyday.

The Sonic series has gone from having a very strong reputation in the early 90s, to a very poor reputation in the past few console generations. The franchise has become a punchline. Sonic Mania traded on the reputation and goodwill of the early, highly regarded games and actually delivered on the promise. For a long-troubled franchise to deliver a game to near universal acclaim is no small feat.

They've established a successful sub-brand.

The best way to nurture that sub-brand is to keep up the quality and stay on-message. To take stock of why Sonic Mania was well received, build on that and stay on course.

Throwing in heavily criticised elements from the later, troubled, entries in the series would muddy the waters. It would send mixed messages. 

[Wraith]

4 hours ago, Pengi said:

Sonic Mania was an intentional throwback to the traditional Sonic games of the Mega Drive era. The unique selling point was that it was a return to the original look and formula, with none of the trappings of the later games in the series. There's a good portion of the video game audience who hold the original Mega Drive series in high regard, but fell off the series with the later entries, when it became a different animal entirely. Sonic Mania was, by design, a game that would appeal not just to the hardcore fans and kid audience, but also the 30-something audience who grew up playing the original games.

As such, voice acting wouldn't really fit in a Sonic Mania style game, it would be antithetical to its mission statement. 

I'm not taking any argument that says the lack of voice acting was critical to Mania's success seriously. I assumed we liked these games for the unique and fluid physics system and the way the level design takes advantage of it. The little details count, of course, but they can't flip the whole table over on their own.

[Pengi]

8 hours ago, Wraith said:

I'm not taking any argument that says the lack of voice acting was critical to Mania's success seriously. I assumed we liked these games for the unique and fluid physics system and the way the level design takes advantage of it. The little details count, of course, but they can't flip the whole table over on their own.

I never said that. I said it would be bad messaging, the kind that could put off the older demographic.

It’s like how the game would have played just as well if the modern character designs were used, but using the classic designs plays to the nostalgia angle and sends a message to lapsed fans - “this game is like the old ones you loved”.

The series has been so inconsistent, with so many weird instalments and spin-offs, that this kind of messaging is important.

I’m sure the Mania team could make a great sequel where Sonic has a sword or turns into a Werehog and plays like Streets of Rage for half the levels. But these would be bad ideas because they’d be straying from the mission statement, they’d give potential customers pause.

The selling point is “this is like the old Sonic”. Following it up with “now we’re adding a bunch of stuff you hated from the later games” wouldn’t be a good look, and would ultimately defeat the purpose of the sub-brand.

[Splash the Otter]

@Pengi I'll reply to you later. My internet access will be limited for the next few days.

[Scritch the Cat]

I don't really mind the new Classic Sonic games not having any talking, but I think it's just plain stupid that Classic Sonic can't speak when he cameos in Modern Sonic games, even when every other Classic character present can.

As for the divide between Classic and Modern, and the retconning of them to be different dimensions as opposed to just having Classic Sonic be the past, that actually makes sense given that when time travel and new Classic games get involved, it gets harder to maintain continuity even if there's barely any already.  Rather than stuffing a bunch of new Classic Sonic games into the period between Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Sonic Adventure, just declare that the timeline split between the one that led to Sonic Adventure and the one that led to Sonic Mania, with Sonic Generations as the catalyst.

Meanwhile, the restriction of characters to one timeline or the other, while I'm not a fan, I get a feeling is done because Classic Sonic is being handled by external developers, and Sega doesn't want them tampering too much with established characters' image.  I'd still call it royally garbage not to let them use characters who originated in games before Sonic Adventure, though.

[Skull Leader]

On February 24, 2019 at 10:30 PM, Wraith said:

you guys know this character used to talk in the media that allowed for it to be all the time, even back then right

he talks in sonic CD

'voice acting' is a storytelling tool and not some weird modern sonic anime shonen thing

Eggsactly.

I think there are some things that can only be done by having the characters talk in order to move the story forward. For example, when Amy makes characters like Gamma and Shadow change sides, which I don't think could be pulled off with just body language alone.

Sadly, the modern games abused this tool to the point of it being thrown in just for the sake of having the characters talk. I mean, I don't mind them occassionally saying something that displays their respective personalities, but when they fall to omochao levels like in the final boss of Generations, there is a problem.

On February 24, 2019 at 10:30 PM, Wraith said:

you guys know this character used to talk in the media that allowed for it to be all the time, even back then right

he talks in sonic CD

'voice acting' is a storytelling tool and not some weird modern sonic anime shonen thing

Eggsactly.

I think there are some things that can only be done by having the characters talk in order to move the story forward. For example, when Amy makes characters like Gamma and Shadow change sides, which I don't think could be pulled off with just body language alone.

Sadly, the modern games abused this tool to the point of it being thrown in just for the sake of having the characters talk. I mean, I don't mind them occassionally saying something that displays their respective personalities, but when they fall to omochao levels like in the final boss of Generations, there is a problem.

[Splash the Otter]

Okay, I'm back!

@Pengi I don't see why the Classic series has to consist only of games like Mania.

[StaticMania]

They don't has to, but that would be the point for the foreseeable future.

[Pengi]

The whole point of bringing back the Classic Sonic designs was to signal that it would play like the old games. 

[SaturnWolf]

54 minutes ago, Pengi said:

The whole point of bringing back the Classic Sonic designs was to signal that it would play like the old games. 

Yes, this.

Bringing back Classic Sonic, especially after Mania, only to say "Hey I know this was a huge success, but now we're gonna add a bunch of shit that everybody hated from later games just for the sake of change" is one way for the series to earn even more ire from fans and the general public.

[Scritch the Cat]

1 hour ago, DreamSaturn said:

Yes, this.

Bringing back Classic Sonic, especially after Mania, only to say "Hey I know this was a huge success, but now we're gonna add a bunch of shit that everybody hated from later games just for the sake of change" is one way for the series to earn even more ire from fans and the general public.

I want to point out, though, that fans are split, even on the issue of what epitomizes Classic Sonic.  It's just the 16-bit platformers and Oshima design for some, but for many others Classic Sonic is about the phenomenon; the 1990s attitude, the catchphrases, the struggle between environmentalism and industrialism, and the adaptations and spin-offs that made this all possible.  These sorts of people will likely enjoy a game like Sonic Mania, but the different cultural context means they might not be as excited for such games when they're announced.  That game was a novelty for being the first new game that really nailed the mechanics of the old games, but can it be a novelty going forward, without more fanfare around it?  Time will tell.

I'll say this now, though: The plot, cut-scenes and adaptation of Sonic Mania haven't really provided a break from the homogeneous lightheartedness of the franchise these days.  When it debuted, arguably the most comedy-centric spin-off ever was wrapping up, the core series was still comedy-focused, and Sonic and Eggman being frienemies was more or less the norm.  That's not how most of us remember the Classic era being, so I feel bad that they had an opportunity to back away from the fluff and didn't really take it.  Maybe it's just because at the time Sonic Mania was made, the series was still seen as a joke, but I'm hoping that if we have enough better games made, they can break out of that mentality.  It makes me laugh, but it doesn't make me fond of Sonic's universe, since when Rule of Funny overrides all else, that universe barely seems to exist.