A question about the Classic characters

[DabigRG]

5 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

I want to point out, though, that fans are split, even on the issue of what epitomizes Classic Sonic.  It's just the 16-bit platformers and Oshima design for some, but for many others Classic Sonic is about the phenomenon; the 1990s attitude, the catchphrases, the struggle between environmentalism and industrialism, and the adaptations and spin-offs that made this all possible.  These sorts of people will likely enjoy a game like Sonic Mania, but the different cultural context means they might not be as excited for such games when they're announced.  That game was a novelty for being the first new game that really nailed the mechanics of the old games, but can it be a novelty going forward, without more fanfare around it?  Time will tell.

I'll say this now, though: The plot, cut-scenes and adaptation of Sonic Mania haven't really provided a break from the homogeneous lightheartedness of the franchise these days.  When it debuted, arguably the most comedy-centric spin-off ever was wrapping up, the core series was still comedy-focused, and Sonic and Eggman being frienemies was more or less the norm.  That's not how most of us remember the Classic era being, so I feel bad that they had an opportunity to back away from the fluff and didn't really take it.

The difference is technically that Mania's lightheartedness is more of the whimsical & visual kind compared to everything else being more dialogue driven & bizarre with bursts of darkness.

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

I'll say this now, though: The plot, cut-scenes and adaptation of Sonic Mania haven't really provided a break from the homogeneous lightheartedness of the franchise these days.  When it debuted, arguably the most comedy-centric spin-off ever was wrapping up, the core series was still comedy-focused, and Sonic and Eggman being frienemies was more or less the norm. 

When have the games ever been "comedy focused"? Some of the cartoons, sure, but the games have just...occasionally told jokes.

[Scritch the Cat]

1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

The difference is technically that Mania's lightheartedness is more of the whimsical & visual kind compared to everything else being more dialogue driven & bizarre with bursts of darkness.

I'd still call that a difference in degree rather than principle.  The cutscenes and animated shorts of Sonic Mania aren't too far design-wise from the Sonic CD intro or the Sonic OVA, but the vibe they project feels very different to me.  Sonic's attitude in those old 1990s works comes off more as "You're obviously powerful, but so am I and you're a menace, so I'm going to use all my power to stop you."  The new Classic Sonic conveys more sense "Woohoo; time for another fun adventure battling Eggman!"  That's always been a part of Sonic's persona, too, but when it's all there is to the stories, it wears thin quickly.

[DabigRG]

16 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

I'd still call that a difference in degree rather than principle.  The cutscenes and animated shorts of Sonic Mania aren't too far design-wise from the Sonic CD intro or the Sonic OVA, but the vibe they project feels very different to me.  Sonic's attitude in those old 1990s works comes off more as "You're obviously powerful, but so am I and you're a menace, so I'm going to use all my power to stop you."  The new Classic Sonic conveys more sense "Woohoo; time for another fun adventure battling Eggman!"  That's always been a part of Sonic's persona, too, but when it's all there is to the stories, it wears thin quickly.

To be fair, CD is kinda a different deal compared to most of the other classic stuff.

[Scritch the Cat]

4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

To be fair, CD is kinda a different deal compared to most of the other classic stuff.

Sure, but it can be argued that this is largely because the different format allowed it to convey more, rather than because it was at odds with where the series really ought to be (though I admit I prefer the Genesis trilogy, gameplay-wise).

[Splash the Otter]

1 hour ago, DreamSaturn said:

Yes, this.

Bringing back Classic Sonic, especially after Mania, only to say "Hey I know this was a huge success, but now we're gonna add a bunch of shit that everybody hated from later games just for the sake of change" is one way for the series to earn even more ire from fans and the general public.

But what about the Classic-exclusive characters? I don't want them to be stuck in games like Mania forever!

[SaturnWolf]

1 minute ago, Splash the Otter said:

But what about the Classic-exclusive characters? I don't want them to be stuck in games like Mania forever!

Is cross-contaminating the brands to the point where literally the only difference is the art style a better alternative? Because that sounds genuinely awful.

[Scritch the Cat]

2 hours ago, DreamSaturn said:

Is cross-contaminating the brands to the point where literally the only difference is the art style a better alternative? Because that sounds genuinely awful.

The better alternative is probably just to drop the character restrictions.  At least from Modern Sonic, which given Classic Sonic, the character, keeps showing up in its games, isn't too farfetched.  I can understand the irritation of keeping Nack stuck in a subseries that won't likely utilize him in playable roles because it's not the right sort of gameplay for a slow guy with a cork gun, so I see no problem with putting him in a modern spin-off game.  I don't expect him to be a playable character in a Modern Sonic platformer either, but something like a kart racer, sure.

[Diogenes]

55 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

 I can understand the irritation of keeping Nack stuck in a subseries that won't likely utilize him in playable roles because it's not the right sort of gameplay for a slow guy with a cork gun, so I see no problem with putting him in a modern spin-off game.  I don't expect him to be a playable character in a Modern Sonic platformer either, but something like a kart racer, sure.

They've already had nearly 2 decades to bring him back if they actually wanted to. That they didn't says a lot.

People really worry too much about character restrictions, at least as far as the Modern end goes. The only characters it's losing out on are the ones it never cared about anyway and the few created specifically for Mania. And there's nothing stopping them from changing their minds and reviving the characters in the Modern dimension if they ever decide they do want them. Nothing's really changed for Modern, the dead are just as dead as they've ever been.

[Salamander]

Mania's cutscenes did have a sense of fun, but I think if we accept the premise that they were inconsistent in tone with the other Classic games (and I'm not sure I do accept that premise, actually), it seems clear to me that this is related to Mania's status as a celebratory game whose identity is inextricably related to its nostalgic compilation status.

In any case, I think that we may as well drop the character restrictions, which when you get down to it really only apply to the comic anyway, because Sega can ignore, will ignore, and has ignored those restrictions whenever it likes.  Modern and Classic already share far more than divides them.  The barrier between them is less so much a wall as an easily-hopped picket fence.

[Splash the Otter]

14 minutes ago, DreamSaturn said:

Is cross-contaminating the brands to the point where literally the only difference is the art style a better alternative? Because that sounds genuinely awful.

What makes you think that's what I want?

[SaturnWolf]

2 hours ago, Splash the Otter said:

What makes you think that's what I want?

What is it you're asking for, then? Characters from the Modern Series crossing over into the Classic series and vice versa, voice acting in the Classic series, anything else you want to add?

[Splash the Otter]

14 minutes ago, DreamSaturn said:

What is it you're asking for, then? Characters from the Modern Series crossing over into the Classic series and vice versa, voice acting in the Classic series, anything else you want to add?

Why are you being so confrontational? As for what I want, at this point I just want the Classic series to evolve and not stay the same forever. I don't think I'm asking for anything unreasonable here.

[SaturnWolf]

1 hour ago, Splash the Otter said:

Why are you being so confrontational? As for what I want, at this point I just want the Classic series to evolve and not stay the same forever. I don't think I'm asking for anything unreasonable here.

It has evolved. Compare Sonic 1 to Mania and you'll see how refined it's become.

[Wraith]

8 hours ago, FFWF said:

Mania's cutscenes did have a sense of fun, but I think if we accept the premise that they were inconsistent in tone with the other Classic games (and I'm not sure I do accept that premise, actually), it seems clear to me that this is related to Mania's status as a celebratory game whose identity is inextricably related to its nostalgic compilation status.

I think it's tone is pretty clearly a little different from the others. Just compare CD's opening to Mania's. 

I don't think that "inconsistency" is necessarily a bad thing though even if I do prefer one vibe over the other

[Splash the Otter]

1 minute ago, DreamSaturn said:

It has evolved. Compare Sonic 1 to Mania and you'll see how refined it's become.

I think it can and should evolve further. How about going 3d for example?

[Tracker_TD]

19 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

I think it can and should evolve further. How about going 3d for example?

I think you keep equating the evolution of technology to the basic design concepts of the series. Going 3D isn't an evolution unless it's actually good, and given the past 2 decades I don't have much faith in that.

That's not to say it'd instantly be bad or that it should never happen, but it's not an evolution purely on the virtue of being 3D. Or that 2D can't possibly be an evolution - and to that effect, I'm not keen if the evolution involves missing the point of what makes a Classic Sonic game fun. I saw a Mania mod earlier that gives every character a new Up+Jump move, like super fast vertical ascent for Tails - something like that'd be neat. 

[Wraith]

I can agree with the general sentiment of not wanting 2D Sonic to stay parked at 1996, at least.

[Pengi]

1 hour ago, Splash the Otter said:

I think it can and should evolve further. How about going 3d for example?

Then what would be the point of using the Classic Sonic designs over the Modern Sonic designs?

It would be poor messaging.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Pengi said:

Then what would be the point of using the Classic Sonic designs over the Modern Sonic designs?

"Classic Sonic" is more than just character designs and other aesthetics. There's a gameplay philosophy in there that Modern Sonic abandoned almost immediately.

[Pengi]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

"Classic Sonic" is more than just character designs and other aesthetics. There's a gameplay philosophy in there that Modern Sonic abandoned almost immediately.

Creating a fully 3D platformer that uses the Classic Sonic designs would send mixed messages.

They brought back the retro designs to go with the retro gameplay.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Pengi said:

Creating a fully 3D platformer that uses the Classic Sonic designs would send mixed messages.

They brought back the retro designs to go with the retro gameplay.

How could this possibly be more of a mixed message than what we're already getting?

[Wraith]

I was assuming a 3D physics based Sonic would be the end goal to this whole thing. That's what I was hoping for, at any rate. I'd get bored of a Mania line of games that never pushed themselves relatively quickly

[Pengi]

11 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

How could this possibly be more of a mixed message than what we're already getting?

Right now, they're using the Classic Sonic design exclusively for 2D platforming gameplay in the style of the Mega Drive titles. That's a pretty straight forward message.

Retro Sonic Designs = Retro Sonic Gameplay

Standard Sonic Design = Everything Else

[SaturnWolf]

If it did go 3D I'd want there to be an actual point to that, and not just doing it for the fuck of it. And to that end, who would we hand it off to? Do you trust fucking Sonic Team with it? With how they can't even get Classic Sonic right in 2D, let alone Modern Sonic right, I certainly don't want them anywhere near it.