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A question about the Classic characters


Splash the Otter

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20 minutes ago, DreamSaturn said:

If it did go 3D I'd want there to be an actual point to that, and not just doing it for the fuck of it. And to that end, who would we hand it off to? Do you trust fucking Sonic Team with it? With how they can't even get Classic Sonic right in 2D, let alone Modern Sonic right, I certainly don't want them anywhere near it.

They'd have to build a new team and more importantly change development circumstances for it to be done. I think the people involved with Sonic understand this on some level. It's why they haven't really tried. 

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58 minutes ago, Pengi said:

Right now, they're using the Classic Sonic design exclusively for 2D platforming gameplay in the style of the Mega Drive titles. That's a pretty straight forward message.

Retro Sonic Designs = Retro Sonic Gameplay

Standard Sonic Design = Everything Else

If Modern Sonic can get away with having both 2D and 3D gameplay within the very same level, even in games where Classic is also playable, I don't see how Classic getting its own kind of 3D games would be a problem.

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8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If Modern Sonic can get away with having both 2D and 3D gameplay within the very same level, even in games where Classic is also playable, I don't see how Classic getting its own kind of 3D games would be a problem.

To be fair - how many people really want all that 2D in Modern's stuff? Last I recall, it's one of main complaints about Modern games - Forces only had like, 15 minutes of actual 3D gameplay across its whole runtime (and that 3D gameplay was ass, but still) 

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That's a whole other discussion. The point is that 2D and 3D aren't locked to a brand.

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Yeah, to be honest I'm not too fussed about locking stuff to a brand either. One of the main things I hear from people who don't like Classic Sonic is because they want games like Rush. I think Rush is kinda mediocre compared to the Classics, but it has its merits, so I'm fine with them using Modern Sonic for more experimental stuff like that, while Classic focuses on what works and pushes that formula. 

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I really don't see the point in this shit at all and think you should be allowed to tweak Sonic's design as you see fit to suit the game as long as it's not too out there. That's how every other franchise I like works.

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3 hours ago, DreamSaturn said:

If it did go 3D I'd want there to be an actual point to that, and not just doing it for the fuck of it. And to that end, who would we hand it off to? Do you trust fucking Sonic Team with it? With how they can't even get Classic Sonic right in 2D, let alone Modern Sonic right, I certainly don't want them anywhere near it.

This is a cliche by now, but they did get Classic Sonic right in 2D in one sense: They let outsiders develop it.  Doing that for 3D games is a good next step...that, and not screwing over the developers the way they did with Sonic Synergy.

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I don't think this is anywhere near as simple as "they made literally anyone besides Sonic Team make it" - especially considering Mania is largely the exception in that regard, not the rule. The majority of times they've outsourced Sonic before then have ranged from mediocre to overwhelming failures - lest we forget that one time everyone thought Bioware could do right by them.

Tax/Stealth are in a unique position that their passion for the series is pretty much uncontested as far as developers go, to the point that much of their prior experience is deconstructing and reverse engineering the older titles in the series to better replicate and build on them. There are few, if any, other developers out there that will develop a Sonic game with the same amount of respect and passion for the IP, when the majority of others will want to put their own spin on it for no good reason or simply put out whatever for the brand money. And if these guys turn out not to be the exception down the line, then fine, I'll be all the happier for it - but the point of contention here is that they genuinely gave a shit about what they were working on, and it seems like a lot of trouble to keep outsourcing for that when they could just give Sonic Team a much needed overhaul and stop overbearing, clueless executives from determining the whole direction of a game in ways that only make it worse off for all involved.

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5 hours ago, Diogenes said:

If Modern Sonic can get away with having both 2D and 3D gameplay within the very same level, even in games where Classic is also playable, I don't see how Classic getting its own kind of 3D games would be a problem.

Modern Sonic is the core brand, it's flexible.

Classic Sonic is an old, formerly retired version of the brand image from the early-mid '90s that they brought back for nostalgic purposes to help sell games nostalgic of that era. It's a tool to communicate to customers "this is an early-mid '90s style Sonic game".

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1 minute ago, Pengi said:

Modern Sonic is the core brand, it's flexible.

Classic Sonic is an old, formerly retired version of the brand image from the early-mid '90s that they brought back for nostalgic purposes to help sell games nostalgic of that era. It's a tool to communicate to customers "this is an early-mid '90s style Sonic game".

Wouldn't it be nice if the best Sonic game in 2 decades could lead to more than just a cheap gimmick? It might actually have a chance if it's not artificially held back and limited to peddling nostalgia.

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1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Wouldn't it be nice if the best Sonic game in 2 decades could lead to more than just a cheap gimmick? It might actually have a chance if it's not artificially held back and limited to peddling nostalgia.

Sonic Mania exceeded Sega's sales expectations and became their best reviewed game in the series in over 15 years. That doesn't sound like being held back, to me.

It showed that there's still a market for traditional Mega Drive styled Sonic games, as long as they're well designed and feel authentic.

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7 minutes ago, Pengi said:

That doesn't sound like being held back, to me.

That also doesn't sound like it's actually relevant to what he said about nostalgia peddling.

Sales and Reviews don't form an identity.

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17 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

That also doesn't sound like it's actually relevant to what he said about nostalgia peddling.

I disagree with the premise that nostalgia is inherently bad. It's a tool that can be used either effectively or poorly. Sometimes it's just a matter of fact of something that hasn't been around for a while.

The idea behind Generations, Mania etc. was "let's return to the traditional Sonic gameplay" and "let's use the traditional Sonic character designs while we're at it". The old design was used to communicate the kind of game being sold.

If the argument is that anything perceived as nostalgic is inherently bad, then the Classic Sonic sub-brand should be discarded completely.

17 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Sales and Reviews don't form an identity.

Of course they do. The build a reputation.

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9 hours ago, Pengi said:

Sonic Mania exceeded Sega's sales expectations and became their best reviewed game in the series in over 15 years. That doesn't sound like being held back, to me.

Going on to say, "therefore, every Classic game must be just like it" rather than allowing it to explore what a Classic Sonic game can be absolutely is. I want more games like Mania, sure, but I also want it to be more than that one trick pony. I want to see what Sonic could've grown into had it not been derailed at every opportunity past the Genesis. And again if Classic Sonic can still exist as a separate recognizable thing even when Modern is also doing 2D gameplay and retro/retro-inspired levels, I don't see how exploring what a 3D Classic game would be would conflict with Modern Sonic's very different 3D gameplay.

8 hours ago, Pengi said:

I disagree with the premise that nostalgia is inherently bad.

I don't think it's inherently bad either. But it can't be the only tool in your bag. The series was already heavily saturated with nostalgia pandering before Mania, it succeeded in spite of the burnout because it did it so much better, but that can't last forever. If there are going to be more Classic games going forward they'll need to find a way to stand on their own identity and not rely on references to the Genesis games.

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13 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Reputation isn't identity.

Reputation absolutely does build an inform identity. Harvard University's reputation is a big part of its identity. Citizen Kane's reputation is part of its identity.

4 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Going on to say, "therefore, every Classic game must be just like it" rather than allowing it to explore what a Classic Sonic game can be absolutely is. I want more games like Mania, sure, but I also want it to be more than that one trick pony. I want to see what Sonic could've grown into had it not been derailed at every opportunity past the Genesis. And again if Classic Sonic can still exist as a separate recognizable thing even when Modern is also doing 2D gameplay and retro/retro-inspired levels, I don't see how exploring what a 3D Classic game would be would conflict with Modern Sonic's very different 3D gameplay.

A 3D Sonic game would be whatever the developers made it to be. Sonic's eye colour and Eggman's outfit wouldn't affect the gameplay, it's a cosmetic choice, that's currently being employed in a very specific manner and marketed as its own sub-brand.

So if Sega, or an outsourced development team, starts working on a new 3D Sonic game, what would be the the benefit of using the old 1990s designs rather than the current designs? How would they pitch it to Sega's management and marketing? What idea would it communicate to the potential customers? How would it affect what they're currently doing with the Classic Sonic sub-brand?

4 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I don't think it's inherently bad either. But it can't be the only tool in your bag. The series was already heavily saturated with nostalgia pandering before Mania, it succeeded in spite of the burnout because it did it so much better, but that can't last forever. 

The Sonic Mania dev team have already proven that nostalgia isn't their only tool. If the key players behind Mania return to make sequels, then the series is in not just safe hands, but talented and creative hands.

4 hours ago, Diogenes said:

If there are going to be more Classic games going forward they'll need to find a way to stand on their own identity and not rely on references to the Genesis games.

I think you're conflating references with fundamental gameplay elements.

I don't think future "Classic Sonic" games need to re-use much content from the Mega Drive games, just that it needs to keep the fundamentals. Sonic 1, Sonic CD and Sonic 3 & Knuckles all offer different experiences while maintaining the fundamentals. Otherwise there's no point in using the '90s designs at all. 

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31 minutes ago, Pengi said:

A 3D Sonic game would be whatever the developers made it to be. Sonic's eye colour and Eggman's outfit wouldn't affect the gameplay, it's a cosmetic choice, that's currently being employed in a very specific manner and marketed as its own sub-brand.

So if Sega, or an outsourced development team, starts working on a new 3D Sonic game, what would be the the benefit of using the old 1990s designs rather than the current designs? How would they pitch it to Sega's management and marketing? What idea would it communicate to the potential customers? How would it affect what they're currently doing with the Classic Sonic sub-brand?

1. The appeal of those designs, the appeal of the classic aesthetics as a whole, and, assuming this is a proper classic-styled 3D Sonic and not just whatever Sonic Team shits out with Classic's face stuck on, consistency in style between it and other Classic games.
2. "Hey look at how much people liked Mania, a game that was actually true to the Genesis era's style and gameplay. Let's do more and go bigger with that."
3. "Sonic is good again."
4. It would be part of the Classic Sonic sub-brand. It would show that classic Sonic and his associated gameplay are not just old relics and are still able to expand and evolve.

31 minutes ago, Pengi said:

I think you're conflating references with fundamental gameplay elements.

I don't think future "Classic Sonic" games need to re-use much content from the Mega Drive games, just that it needs to keep the fundamentals. Sonic 1, Sonic CD and Sonic 3 & Knuckles all offer different experiences while maintaining the fundamentals. Otherwise there's no point in using the '90s designs at all. 

Okay. Can we keep those fundamentals, and apply them to 3D gameplay, please?

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42 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Okay. Can we keep those fundamentals, and apply them to 3D gameplay, please?

Yeah I'd imagine something like a upgraded high budget version of Sonic Utopia would be awesome and work great! It would present itself to be very different from Modern Sonic with such a idea being far more physics based and whatnot.

And before anybody screams "Eww! Sonic and open world doesn't mix!" ...well first off that is missing the point of what I am saying. 2nd is the fact the Sonic Utopia creator doesn't plan on the final fan game being as quite open world as the demo is for each level. And lastly as a side note. I don't agree that automatically a open world Sonic game would even be bad... would depend on how exactly it is executed.

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16 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

2nd is the fact the Sonic Utopia creator doesn't plan on the final fan game being as quite open world as the demo is for each level.

At this point, it would be terrible if people still didn't know that. 

Some amount of openness would be fine, especially if they didn't fix the camera.

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Classic Sonic's reputation would mean it's iconography would communicate how you're supposed to approach the game. I have a hard time imagining it looking good in 3D without a lot of stylistic tweaks, but I can see the reasoning.

I wouldn't mind an art shift personally though as long as the mechanics are kept.

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41 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

1. The appeal of those designs, the appeal of the classic aesthetics as a whole, and, assuming this is a proper classic-styled 3D Sonic and not just whatever Sonic Team shits out with Classic's face stuck on, consistency in style between it and other Classic games.

"They're appealing" isn't a strong enough argument. Sega presumably thinks the mainline Sonic designs and cast are appealing too. If an off-shoot version of the brand is going to be used, there needs to be a compelling argument for why it's being used instead of the mainline version. If an off-shoot version of the brand is being used for a specific purpose, and you want to use it for a different purpose that's already being served by the parent brand, you need a very, very, very compelling argument.

 

59 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

2. "Hey look at how much people liked Mania, a game that was actually true to the Genesis era's style and gameplay. Let's do more and go bigger with that."
3. "Sonic is good again."
4. It would be part of the Classic Sonic sub-brand. It would show that classic Sonic and his associated gameplay are not just old relics and are still able to expand and evolve.

Okay. Can we keep those fundamentals, and apply them to 3D gameplay, please?

"Customers liked X, so let's do more X." is a sound approach to business. What you're suggesting is "Customers liked X, so let's do Y."

A 2D platform game is an inherently different experience to a 3D platform game. Your argument is built on the premise that a 3D platformer is "doing more and going bigger" than a 2D platformer and that 2D platformers are "relics".

That may have seemed like conventional wisdom in the late '90s, when the 3D platformer was the new and exciting dominant genre, but the past decade has shown that there's an audience for both, and that audience isn't 1:1 on the Venn diagram. Take Mario, for example. On the Wii, the 2D New Super Mario Bros Wii outsold the 3D Super Mario Galaxy, despite Galaxy being released earlier. On the 3DS the 2D New Super Mario Bros 2 outsold the 3D Super Mario 3D Land, despite 3D Land being released earlier. On the Wii U the trend reversed - Super Mario 3D World came later and just barely outsold New Super Mario Bros U, 5.8 million vs 5.77 million. But the Wii U also had additional 2D series installments, Super Mario Maker and New Super Luigi U, both of which made it into the system's top 10 best sellers list.

Right now, the Sonic brand has New Coke and Coca-Cola Classic, and they're co-existing fine. Changing the recipe of Coca-Cola Classic to be more like New Coke, just after bringing Classic back, to a hugely positive reception, would be a colossally bad move. Then you'd just have two New Cokes.

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2 minutes ago, Pengi said:

"They're appealing" isn't a strong enough argument.

Seemed like a strong enough argument for this all to happen in the first place.

2 minutes ago, Pengi said:

If an off-shoot version of the brand is going to be used, there needs to be a compelling argument for why it's being used instead of the mainline version.

Again: if they're going to make a classic-styled 3D game, using the classic designs and aesthetics would tie it to the classic Sonic games. It signals that the new 3D game is not a Modern game, but a Classic game, in the same way that using the classic designs in Mania signaled that it was a classic game following in the footsteps of the Genesis games.

2 minutes ago, Pengi said:

"Customers liked X, so let's do more X." is a sound approach to business. What you're suggesting is "Customers liked X, so let's do Y."

A 3D game is obviously not going to work exactly like a 2D game but they aren't completely different beasts. NSMB and 3D World may not have identical appeal to every Mario fan but we don't treat them as if they're completely alien to each other.

2 minutes ago, Pengi said:

A 2D platform game is an inherently different experience to a 3D platform game. Your argument is built on the premise that a 3D platformer is "doing more and going bigger" than a 2D platformer and that 2D platformers are "relics".

I'm not saying 2D platformers are relics. But forcing a series to stay the same out of fear will make it one. Classic gameplay in 3D is worth exploring and having an actual dedicated "Classic" subseries is the nearest route to getting that that we've had in ages.

2 minutes ago, Pengi said:

Right now, the Sonic brand has New Coke and Coca-Cola Classic, and they're co-existing fine. Changing the recipe of Coca-Cola Classic to be more like New Coke, just after bringing Classic back, to a hugely positive reception, would be a colossally bad move. Then you'd just have two New Cokes.

If a 3D Classic game would overlap too much with 3D Modern games, then why did they bother bringing back Classic Sonic at all when we already had Modern Sonic in fully 2D games and switching between 2D and 3D within games? There's meaningful differences between 2D Classic Sonic and 2D Modern Sonic that justified Mania's existence, and there'd be meaningful differences between 3D Classic Sonic and 3D Modern Sonic that would justify such a game likewise.

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1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Seemed like a strong enough argument for this all to happen in the first place.

Classic Sonic was brought back because the classic gameplay was brought back and it was a good way to communicate the "back to basics" approach visually. The correlation isn't a coincidence.

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Again: if they're going to make a classic-styled 3D game, using the classic designs and aesthetics would tie it to the classic Sonic games. It signals that the new 3D game is not a Modern game, but a Classic game, in the same way that using the classic designs in Mania signaled that it was a classic game following in the footsteps of the Genesis games.

Using the classic designs in Mania did help signal that it was a game that played like the Mega Drive titles. A fully 3D platformer would not be a game that plays like the Mega Drive titles. The classic designs wouldn't communicate the type of game being sold. All it could do is muddy the waters, and defeat the purpose of even having "Classic Sonic" as a sub-brand.

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

A 3D game is obviously not going to work exactly like a 2D game but they aren't completely different beasts. NSMB and 3D World may not have identical appeal to every Mario fan but we don't treat them as if they're completely alien to each other.

For many people, they might as well be. A lot of people just don't get on with 3D games, they find them confusing and disorienting. The New Super Mario Bros games were very welcoming to lapsed gamers who enjoyed the old games as kids, whose tastes hadn't been catered to for a couple of console generations. The barrier of entry was lower.

When Nintendo released "Super Mario 3D Land", they didn't call it "New Super Mario Bros ___", because that would sent mixed messages, it would have undermined the "New Super Mario Bros" sub-brand and pissed away the goodwill they'd built with that segment of the audience. They're not going to do a 2D "Super Mario Galaxy 3" or a 2D "Metroid Prime" either.

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Classic gameplay in 3D

What does this even mean? The first proper 3D Sonic game was Sonic Adventure, which brought in the "new look" Sonic. There aren't any 3D platformers associated with the Classic Sonic design. Sonic R was a racing game, Sonic the Fighters was a fighter, Sonic 3D was fixed perspective isometric and sprite based, Sonic World and Sonic into Dreams were bonus features. All of those games are obscurities to the general public. The original pre-Adventure Sonic designs are associated with the Mega Drive games, period.

Whatever you're imagining "classic gameplay in 3D" is, would be a different beast to the Mega Drive titles. 

The messaging of Sonic Mania was very, very, very, very, very simple and very, very, very, very, very, clear - "Here's the Mega Drive style Sonic with Mega Drive style gameplay".

"Here's the Mega Drive style Sonic in a fully 3D game that's a new take on the 3D Sonic formula" is confused messaging.

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

If a 3D Classic game would overlap too much with 3D Modern games, then why did they bother bringing back Classic Sonic at all when we already had Modern Sonic in fully 2D games and switching between 2D and 3D within games? There's meaningful differences between 2D Classic Sonic and 2D Modern Sonic that justified Mania's existence, and there'd be meaningful differences between 3D Classic Sonic and 3D Modern Sonic that would justify such a game likewise.

The 2D Sonic games had drifted further and further from the original formula in the 2000s. When they eventually brought back Classic Sonic, the idea was that they were returning to the original formula. Between Sonic Generations and Sonic Mania, there hadn't been any proper 2D "Modern Sonic" games. 

"This looks like the Mega Drive Sonic because it plays like the Mega Drive Sonic" was the message. "This is the thing you remember." It wasn't my idea, it was Sega's idea. So far they've been consistent about it. Mega Drive style Sonic is used for 2D Mega Drive style gameplay. 

If a game is going to be a new and experimental 3D thing, then it makes more sense to use the mainline Sonic, rather than the one of the Mega Drive era that's specifically associated with the 2D Sonic platformers of the Mega Drive.

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I mean I kinda don't care which design they used as long as they made a 3D game that took notes from Sonic Mania's design philosophy. I think going 3D solves a lot of accessibility issues potentially but it adds just as many for a different generation of gamers for sure. I have older relatives I can't sell 3D Mario on despite how good it is. 

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This is just going in circles. You've given no sensible reason why the classic designs can't be applied to anything other than 2D sidescrollers while it's perfectly fine for Modern Sonic to be anything and everything. Nobody's brain broke because they saw the Sonic from Sonic Adventure in Sonic Advance. Or the Mario from NSMB in 3D Land. Or even Classic Sonic in the 3D environments of Gens and Forces (well, not for any reason related to this subject, anyway). If you can't sensibly explain why a 3D game based on the mechanics of the classic games using the aesthetics from the classic games is so radically different from these cases, this conversation cannot possibly go anywhere from here.

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