Has "Solo Sonic" been detrimental to the series?

[Plasme]

12 hours ago, Diogenes said:

He even got his ass kicked by Chaos 0, who, according to recent discourse, is so weak that only dumb cowardly babies would be afraid of him.

Knuckles was surprise attacked by a creature he had no idea existed. Tails knew about Chaos 0 but did absolutely nothing but give up and cry for Sonic.

In Sonic Adventure, Chaos 0 isn't super powerful, but is dangerous and can take a few hits. In Forces, the illusions of Chaos are really weak on their own and are one shotted by Classic Sonic and are defeated by nameless animals in the war scene.

I actually agree with you that the Tails and Chaos scene is overly reviled; it's suposed to show that Tails is traumatised by Sonic's alleged death and can barely go on without him. The problem is it's atrociously handled and very heavy-handed.

It also ties into Tails' weaker but more technologically assigned role, which a lot of people hate (but I actually quite like).

Either way, your comparison here is absurd, comparing two completely different situations.

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Perhaps. But it does show a considerable improvement in his ability to handle him

What it shows is that they were willing to chump Knuckles to show off Chaos' strength when he first appeared because he's the kind of dopey musclehead who works for that kind of scene.

It's not like Knuckles went through some training arc or had some realization that allowed him to beat Chaos 6, he just did it. His story has nothing to do with him getting stronger.

[Meta77]

I think SA could have been even better (even back then people praised the game a lot it just did not age well) if the game was much longer. Literally to include all those styles you need a game that is at least 4 times longer. i mean heck you could get through some stages in seconds with certain characters. If they had expanded the stages and scope im sure people would not mind the styles as much as each would feel like their own game and not short mini games.

[Wraith]

4 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

I think SA could have been even better (even back then people praised the game a lot it just did not age well) if the game was much longer. Literally to include all those styles you need a game that is at least 4 times longer. i mean heck you could get through some stages in seconds with certain characters. If they had expanded the stages and scope im sure people would not mind the styles as much as each would feel like their own game and not short mini games.

Sonic Adventure 2 does that and it just lead to a different controversy. 

I think it's just always gonna be a hard sell.

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, Diogenes said:

What it shows is that they were willing to chump Knuckles to show off Chaos' strength when he first appeared because he's the kind of dopey musclehead who works for that kind of scene.

It's not like Knuckles went through some training arc or had some realization that allowed him to beat Chaos 6, he just did it. His story has nothing to do with him getting stronger.

It's almost like he was asleep and had no idea what he was dealing with then.

Also, standard action stake-setting, though I think I technically said that.

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

It's almost like he was asleep and had no idea what he was dealing with then.

Dude woke straight up (if he was even asleep in the first place) and attacked Chaos first. And it's not like Chaos did anything special; he just jumped out of the way and stomped him.

I'm not sure I'll ever understand why there's such resistance to Knuckles being a bit of a dope. As if treating him as anything less than a dignified, honorable warrior is going to make his whole character collapse or something.

[DabigRG]

18 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Dude woke straight up (if he was even asleep in the first place) and attacked Chaos first. And it's not like Chaos did anything special; he just jumped out of the way and stomped him.

I'm not sure I'll ever understand why there's such resistance to Knuckles being a bit of a dope. As if treating him as anything less than a dignified, honorable warrior is going to make his whole character collapse or something.

I think it's kinda like people not liking when Eggman is constantly treated like joke except more reasonable--it's an established character that people like in part due to how effective their characters were in their role(s) and it can be annoying to see the same character constantly treated with disrespect.

I'm defending the Sonic Adventure portrayal partly because that was before that interpretation really started up, but mainly because similar traits in that game were handled more within reason for the plot and what the character was doing there.

[Tracker_TD]

21 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I think it's kinda like people not liking when Eggman is constantly treated like joke except more reasonable--it's an established character that people like in part due to how effective their characters were in their role(s) and it can be annoying to see the same character constantly treated with disrespect.

In Sonic 3, Knuckles is tricked by Eggman and gets flung into the sea in Launch Base Zone while trying to taunt Sonic

In Sonic & Knuckles, he continues to be tricked, gets electrocuted while trying to fight back at the last second, and spends the rest of the game doing pushups in Sky Sanctuary Zone.

In Sonic Adventure, he gets tricked again, in addition to the stuff already mentioned about Chaos beating his ass with no resistance.

In Sonic Adventure 2, the Emerald nearly gets stolen right under his nose because of a petty argument distracting him.

In Sonic Advance 2, he gets tricked again. 

et cetera. 

It's not so much disrespect as Knuckles has always been kind of a dunce. He was established being a dunce. It's not disrespect to keep that consistent, honestly. 

[DabigRG]

35 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

In Sonic 3, Knuckles is tricked by Eggman and gets flung into the sea in Launch Base Zone while trying to taunt Sonic

In Sonic & Knuckles, he continues to be tricked, gets electrocuted while trying to fight back at the last second, and spends the rest of the game doing pushups in Sky Sanctuary Zone.

In Sonic Adventure, he gets tricked again, in addition to the stuff already mentioned about Chaos beating his ass with no resistance.

In Sonic Adventure 2, the Emerald nearly gets stolen right under his nose because of a petty argument distracting him.

In Sonic Advance 2, he gets tricked again. 

et cetera. 

It's not so much disrespect as Knuckles has always been kind of a dunce. He was established being a dunce. It's not disrespect to keep that consistent, honestly. 

I guess the distinction between, well, the half of that stuff is that some of it is within the realms of what his character reasonably is intended to be: uninformed, overzealous in his duty, confrontational, and with clashing ideals compared to Sonic.

Adventure 2 is fine, but Advance 2 on the other hand is distinctly in the realms of where the gag gets(or more accurately, got) out of hand(and then some, considering he's piloting a battle mech against Sonic, for some reason).

He does thoughtless shit, yes, but there is a limit to how far that extends.

[Foxthefox1000]

Eh, at least he's not quite on par with Big. And now I'd argue even Silver's naivete isn't as expanded upon as Knuckles' gullibility, and he's generally portrayed as much more competent regardless, even if he is duped. I saw some putting Knuckles above Silver in terms of smarts and their general idiocy, but I definitely don't think that's the case.

And actually, if you consider his dynamic with Team Sonic, him being the least intelligent balances it out. Strongest, least intelligent, with the lowest speed compared to Tails and Sonic, of which one is the smartest but weakest and second fastest while Sonic is the fastest with averages in the other two.

[StaticMania]

Big is the smartest character though.

Nothing else matters and he knows it.

The only one close to Big's smarts is Sonic himself.

[Mountaindewandsprite]

7 hours ago, Tracker_TD said:

In Sonic 3, Knuckles is tricked by Eggman and gets flung into the sea in Launch Base Zone while trying to taunt Sonic

In Sonic & Knuckles, he continues to be tricked, gets electrocuted while trying to fight back at the last second, and spends the rest of the game doing pushups in Sky Sanctuary Zone.

In Sonic Adventure, he gets tricked again, in addition to the stuff already mentioned about Chaos beating his ass with no resistance.

In Sonic Adventure 2, the Emerald nearly gets stolen right under his nose because of a petty argument distracting him.

In Sonic Advance 2, he gets tricked again. 

et cetera. 

It's not so much disrespect as Knuckles has always been kind of a dunce. He was established being a dunce. It's not disrespect to keep that consistent, honestly. 

Knuckles is not the sharpest tool in the shed, but he ain't the dullest either. Saying he's a "dunce" really doesn't do him any justice. Hell, intelligence is subjective anyway. He's completely clueless in social interaction, but anything that deals with ancient history and even Tails has nothing on him. I mean, I don't see anyone calling Silver a dunce because he rushes head first into things without asking questions, only to get kicked in the head.

[SaturnWolf]

4 minutes ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

Knuckles is not the sharpest tool in the shed, but he ain't the dullest either. Saying he's a "dunce" really doesn't do him any justice. Hell, intelligence is subjective anyway. He's completely clueless in social interaction, but anything that deals with ancient history and even Tails has nothing on him. I mean, I don't see anyone calling Silver a dunce because he rushes head first into things without asking questions, only to get kicked in the head.

Well, that's because Silver wasn't tricked by the bad guy, even after finding out he's the bad guy, multiple times.

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

He's completely clueless in social interaction, but anything that deals with ancient history and even Tails has nothing on him.

How many times has this actually come up? I mean he knows his way around Angel Island but that's because he lives there and knowing all its secret shortcuts and the like is basically his job. Outside of that there's Zero Gravity and...?

3 minutes ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

I mean, I don't see anyone calling Silver a dunce because he rushes head first into things without asking questions, only to get kicked in the head.

It's me, I do this, Silver is dumb.

[Wraith]

7 minutes ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

 I mean, I don't see anyone calling Silver a dunce because he rushes head first into things without asking questions, only to get kicked in the head.

what universe do you live in where silver isn't seen as at least a massive dumbass

[Foxthefox1000]

4 minutes ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

Knuckles is not the sharpest tool in the shed, but he ain't the dullest either. Saying he's a "dunce" really doesn't do him any justice. Hell, intelligence is subjective anyway. He's completely clueless in social interaction, but anything that deals with ancient history and even Tails has nothing on him. I mean, I don't see anyone calling Silver a dunce because he rushes head first into things without asking questions, only to get kicked in the head.

Do I have news for you.

That's an infamous example used to downplay Silver's competence and the reckless abandonment is something even Eggman and Tails noted wasn't a smart choice for Sonic in Lost World.

Granted, all of these characters have their good days and bad days. 

[StaticMania]

Silver's introduction is that he's a naive fool willing to believe anyone who has the answer to save his future life world.

He has goals, but relies on the words of others and not his own decisions.

He has no reason to believe either Mephiles or Amy about Sonic, but he does because he does.

[Foxthefox1000]

That waa his introduction. In Rivals, he doesn't believe Eggman (Nega) and even is the one who ultimately figures him out.

In Rivals 2 he IMMEDIATELY calls Nega out for his disguise.

The thing with Silver is that he actually learns and adapts, much like an actual kid his age. Dunno If I can say the same for 16/15 year-old Knuckles, over there.

Hell, 06 is like the only other major game that's showcased Silver's naivete to am extreme, and that's already a big can of worms in terms of canon, but especially since recent games haven't even portrayed him as all that dumb, just simply righteous and determined to where it may be bordeline recklessness as he's DESPERATE to change his future. This causes issues with anyone who opposes his path and/or simply gets in his way. He's got a one-track mind, but that's not exactly been played on as much as Knuckles' whole shtick to the point where people calling him dumb based on a character flaw mainly in 06 just seem to be stuck in the past.

At least, that's how I see it. Anyone's welcome to point out examples of this gullible, naive, and foolish nature outside of 06.

He's not winning any character competitions with the Rivals series as he's kind of just a bully, but then everyone in that game is confrontational for the most inconsequential things.

Though, yes, he's typically a follower and works best when working with others instead of on his own, as even Forces shows him being happy with a lesser role and he's most commonly seen with a partner or some form of company. That lonely insecurity is probably the most indirectly implied trait that's carried over in the rest of the games following 06, but he's still happily able to work alone and didn't ask for the company in Rivals.

[Splash the Otter]

5 hours ago, Wraith said:

what universe do you live in where silver isn't seen as at least a massive dumbass

I don't think he's a dumbass.

[DabigRG]

Honestly, what is Silver's game characterization at this point?

[StaticMania]

Literally nothing as far as Forces is concerned.

If he was meant to be a Trunks expy, he would still be naive and awkward...like Comicon Silver.

So, when this series decides to get it's characters right, he'll be that but in the games.

[DabigRG]

1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

Literally nothing as far as Forces is concerned.

Why do people keep saying that?

[StaticMania]

Probably because everyone's lines are interchangeable any time they're being serious, it's a pretty good time.

[Foxthefox1000]

Lol I gave you his characterization. But I suppose it's all good. It is barely noticeable beyond the typical "I'm a hero and Sonic's friend" thing the whole cast has got going on.

Getting their characters "right" of course, is a subjective statement. But I agree. And maybe he can be as intelligent as Future Trunks was, because boy did Trunks reach some insane levels of "I know a lot and can do a lot" by Super.

[DabigRG]

30 minutes ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

Lol I gave you his characterization. But I suppose it's all good. It is barely noticeable beyond the typical "I'm a hero and Sonic's friend" thing the whole cast has got going on.

Getting their characters "right" of course, is a subjective statement. But I agree. And maybe he can be as intelligent as Future Trunks was, because boy did Trunks reach some insane levels of "I know a lot and can do a lot" by Super.

 

6 hours ago, StaticMania said:

 

If he was meant to be a Trunks expy, he would still be naive and awkward...like Comicon Silver.

So, when this series decides to get it's characters right, he'll be that but in the games.

13 hours ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

 

Hell, 06 is like the only other major game that's showcased Silver's naivete to am extreme, and that's already a big can of worms in terms of canon, but especially since recent games haven't even portrayed him as all that dumb, just simply righteous and determined to where it may be bordeline recklessness as he's DESPERATE to change his future. 

At least, that's how I see it. Anyone's welcome to point out examples of this gullible, naive, and foolish nature outside of 06.

 

Though, yes, he's typically a follower and works best when working with others instead of on his own, as even Forces shows him being happy with a lesser role and he's most commonly seen with a partner or some form of company. 

Like, I have a collective idea of what his character is like, but your post really just put this into perspective: If his individualized character traits, being a gullible dork, hasn't been very applicable to his character past his introduction, then what is he?

On that note, I know Dash Speed complained a while back that Silver in the comics is not like Silver the games. At the time, I didn't give it too much thought and/or assumed it was him being him, but it really comes to mind when I actually think about it now. It also says something that TVTropes directly cites Archie for how he is portrayed in IDW.