Eggman's Danger and Lethal Force

[Plasme]

A topic recently got closed where someone asked why an anti hero like Shadow doesn't sometimes just think about killing Eggman. The OP was a bit over the top and so the thread came across a bit badly, but I think the way the Sonic franchise handles Eggman's more evil side doesn't help, because the series often flirts with Eggman as a murderer and often goes far beyond the tone expected of a kids' game series' villain.

I think this really starts in the Adventure Era. In Adventure 1, Eggman tries to blow up all of Station Square and presumably kill everyone in the end of Tails' story. Eggman's murderous intent isn't glossed over either, Eggman concedes that "he's ruined" and now that he has no chance of forming his own empire he might as well just take everyone down with him (ie, kill everyone). The line is even delivered in an over the top dark way.

In Adventure 2, Eggman tries to kill Sonic and comes very close. He holds Amy hostage in an attempt to reason with Tails after seemingly killing Sonic. I'd say it comes off a little less strangely in Adventure 2 compared to Adventure 1, because Eggman's a bit goofier and more cartoony in his line delivery when talking to Tails. I have to say though that his very short monologue over finally defeating Sonic is dark and jarring. Regardless, Eggman's murderous intent makes the game series have some uncomfortable implications. If Eggman is actually going to try and kill the heroes, and hold them hostage, why shouldn't characters like Shadow contemplate killing him and ending it for good?

It's easy to blame this on the older games, but it can be seen in new material too. In Sonic Generations, Eggman tells Sonic he's going "to close his eyes forever", which is actually a pretty morbid reference to murder. In Sonic Lost World, Eggman seriously threatens the Zeti and Sonic awkwardly references Eggman's plans as genocide. In the newer games, Eggman's violence is played up for laughs, but its done very clumsily because it just glosses over the implications of that violence. If Eggman really does plan to murder those against him, then why is no one bothered or considers taking more drastic action. 

These problems are unique to Sonic and can't really be seen in similar games. Bowser doesn't taunt Mario that he's going to murder him, King Deedede doesn't hold prisoners hostage and exchange their lives to accomplish his goals.

I'd say a far better handling of these themes of violence can be seen in the Boom cartoon, mostly because the show is far better written than any of the games and actually considers where the implications of violence lead. For example, Shadow is cast as an antagonist in the show and frequently considers using lethal force throughout to accomplish his goals. When he reappears later in the show, or is referred to, Sonic talks about him as if he is an actual genuine threat. He's not some goofy character who discusses murder, or seemingly commits it with no implications. And while Shadow comes across quite dorky and stupid in the show, his violent intent is never played down for laughs.

Admittedly, the cartoon can also be clumsy. Eggman's robots almost kill Tails in the first episode and the show builds drama and tension with the idea Tails could actually have been killed in the attack. Yet Team Sonic never really reacts to Eggman as a genuine mortal danger as they do with Shadow, and his antics are usually glossed over. I think that's because they quickly moved away from Eggman as a sinister presence after the early episodes though. Although maybe someone more versed in the cartoon than me could defend it on that front.

So the question is, seeing as the series frequently draws attention to Eggman as murderous in a manner which far eclipses other children media, why shouldn't we ask why the heroes, and especially Shadow, don't consider taking more drastic action?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

14 minutes ago, Plasme said:

So the question is, seeing as the series frequently draws attention to Eggman as murderous in a manner which far eclipses other children media, why shouldn't we ask why the heroes, and especially Shadow, don't consider taking more drastic action?

Because Sonic believes that everyone is redeemable, and capable of good. Eggman has also had plenty of times in the past where he's done good things, even in IDW's continuity where Lost World is canon, and he saved Tails' life numerous times.

On top of that, Shadow doesn't really get a high horse to speak of because as IDW pointed out - Shadow was even worse than Eggman at one point. Eggman bluffed to try take control of the planet, while Shadow fully intended to completely destroy it and murder millions upon millions of people then and there, to the point Eggman sacked up to help save the planet when it actually was in danger, while Shadow intended to sit around and let it die until Amy validated Maria's actual final wishes. 

Should Sonic have just murdered Shadow then and there? During that final fight in Final Rush, should Sonic have kicked Shadow off the platform so he could die falling to Earth because he was "too far gone"? Shadow quite honestly has no right to go off on Sonic about this because in all intents and purposes, Sonic should have killed Shadow then and there following this logic line.

This is like asking why Batman doesn't kill the Joker, why Superman doesn't kill Lex Luthor, etc - and the answer usually is that it's the beginning of a slippery slope that makes them just as murderous and bad as those they wished to stop in the first place. Justice League (the animated series) showed one of the most infamous timelines where the Justice League killed Lex Luthor after killing Flash, and turned into the Justice Lords, lobotomising and killing villains whenever they wished, and making people live in fear of them. That flies in the face of Sonic's core character traits that he wishes for everyone to live peacefully and with freedom. If they have to hide in fear of this superfast murderous hedgehog, they can't really do that.

[SaturnWolf]

This. This is why. Generally speaking, "more drastic action" wouldn't fit under this rating.

[JezMM]

There's sort of this unspoken rule in kids' media that the villians trying to kill the heroes is never really treated with the gravity that it should because it's kind of accepted in advance that the villians will fail.

Even in your examples, Bowser DOES kill Mario over and over again if the player isn't skilled enough.  King Dedede DOES kill Kirby.  But they also... kinda just don't because that's not the canon ending to the games and the audience knows that without being specifically told.  It's the same case with Sonic.

A lot of fans tend to really focus in on this idea as if it's something that is unique to Sonic but it really isn't - it just seems like a bigger deal because Sonic just happens to be the franchise they most devote themselves to in terms of thinking about the lore etc.  There's plenty of kids media that dwells on death more, less and the same amount as Sonic (and it tends to directly correlate with what age group that media is aimed at too, in Sonic's case being somewhere around 7-12 year olds as the key demographic I imagine).

 

 

For what it's worth, bad as the story is, we know that, if pushed to it, Shadow isn't above killing Eggman (albeit for incredibly self-centered, misguided reasons).  The neutral endings of Shadow the Hedgehog are non-canon, but they're still possible "what if" scenarios that COULD have happened.  Fortunately for Eggman, it's clear that Shadow mellows out a lot more after the true events of this game.

[Diogenes]

18 minutes ago, Plasme said:

Bowser doesn't taunt Mario that he's going to murder him

"Breathe a sigh of relief, because it'll be your last!"

That's at least as much of a murder taunt as Eggman's "close your eyes forever" bit.

Also Mario, the hero, literally murdered Bowser in NSMB. Not just beat him and he went away for a while, he dropped him into lava, reducing him to bones. Horrifying, right? Terrible, brutal violence that we should all take very seriously.

Except, not, obviously. Because it's a game for children. It is not designed to work like the real world. The consequences of the characters actions are not meant to be taken seriously (or at least, only up to a point, a point far below that of real life). It is, ultimately, a silly cartoon world.

And as much as it may try not to be, and as much as some fans don't want it to be...so is Sonic.

[Strickerx5]

The thing is, Eggman's antics don't really fall out of line with what other "children's" media have done in the past. It doesn't take much looking in the cartoon or movie realm to find parallels with how ST often treats Eggman. He's a goofy character right down to his goofy name but he's still a guy with a goal. That goal, like in most other forms of media with villains in it, is dark.

Though, what people seem to be forgetting recently is that this is a series made for a younger audience at the end of the day. We can ask for more serious plots but within reason. Within tones that aren't just about violence. This is why Disney can't just flat out show one of their characters getting hung (see Tarzan) full on, right on screen, but can only imply it. It's all about balance. Media like this often indulges in the "say it, imply it, never show it" method when it comes to darker content. If they don't abide by that thin this risk some serious trouble from the world around them.

Simply put, they can't just kill Eggman straight up because that would have more noticeable bearings on the series than a simply one scene and done case. Even if they did a fake out of it (which they have done), they wouldn't be able to commit to it for long so it'd be a useless action.

That's not even going into how he's a main character for the series as a whole. You don't just simply kill off characters like that. Even if it'd make more "sense" (in our world) to do so. That's where your suspension of disbelief has to come in because once you start addressing those inconsistencies, there's no turning back. Suddenly things that are fundamental to the actual game series come into question and the world that was built on cartoon logic starts to crumble.

Hell, this isn't even an unspoken rule limited to "children's" content but also many mainstream shows and movies as well. Why doesn't character x just shoot character y with a gun? Because the movie would be over in 2 minutes so what would even be the point in making it?

I get that this series has a tone problem. You can't just have a transition from a game like Heroes straight into something like Shadow without acknowledging that. But real talk, this topic is simply questioning how writers can (and have) even hope to build a long going series with actual stakes and still meet their E-E10+ quota.

This also doesn't even go into the morality of asking such a question. What makes Sonic, Shadow, Tails, or any of them better than Eggman if their only solution is to kill him? Hell, in some games that'd make them worse than him.

 

Plus, this is all implying that ST currently has the writing staff to even pull off such a thing properly which is... just no. Give me a good narrative first before you even think about taking on something as industry defying as that.

[Wraith]

41 minutes ago, Plasme said:

So the question is, seeing as the series frequently draws attention to Eggman as murderous in a manner which far eclipses other children media

This isn't true, so the premise of this topic is flawed out of the gate. There are a lot of kids media that embrace the idea of death even more readily than Sonic does. 

It's why I'm still confused as to why people still try to treat Sonic as if it 's some stand-out among it's peers. It's grasps on morality are quite frankly simplistic in a way that isn't worth seriously analyzing. Eggman threatens Sonic's life to give the moment some added tension or flourish, but we'll never see emphasis on the collateral damage he causes or his body count even in the "dark, serious" E10 rated games because the series takes place in an idealized reality where those aren't concerns. In Sonic Land, any damage Eggman does can be undone. There's no need to be concerned with it or to take it further than smacking him around a bit and moving on.

[Multikaris]

The comic books and SatAM May provide a little more credence to Robotnik’s lethal intent, with things like the Egg Grape Chambers. Forces also has Eggman try dropping a sun on the planet to roast the inhabitants. In general, he seems crueler to Mobians then humans. For instance, putting Amy in a filthy, tiny cell, torturing Sonic, electrocuting Knuckles, etc. Meanwhile Professor Pickle is in a nice cell and not tortured.  Shadow seems to be Sonic’s upper mercy limit, evidenced by him doing in Erazor, Infinite, and a few others. 

[Plasme]

These have all been really interesting and great responses!

Although Diogenes, that video of Bowser burning to death was horrifying. They went way overboard with that.

[DabigRG]

My general understanding is that while Eggman has bordered onto entertaining killing people a few times, it generally isn't his intent in itself and is more just a case of what suits his ambition in the moment. World domination is his goal and he'll use whatever controlling means he can muster at any given time, but hurting people(or humans anyway) or especially destroying the world is not his desire. It's a difficult to sidestep method in a few instances, but not something he consciously intends on doing.

Or that it Depends on the Writer, with Americans being the ones trying to go the extra mile until Forces.

 

Destroying Sonic and maybe his friends is more about stopping the obstacle that always gets in his way.

 

With that said, Adventure 2 does have another detail that can undo the nerves: he was using the Eclipse Cannon's destructive power to threaten the human world's government into giving in to his demands, right? An idle threat that has power to back it up.

At the end of the opposite stories, he inserts the final Emerald he swiped while Tails wasn't looking into the Eclipse Cannon and laughs triumphantly due.  Well, at the beginning of the Last Story, where he notices the overriding program has activated and is blaring over the speaker, he says this:

Quote

What's wrong? Why won't the Cannon fire?

 

[DabigRG]

Another thing that came to mind is that killing Eggman isn't so much not an option so much as a passive one--Sonic has made a number of attempts on the Doctor's life himself; he just doesn't bother to "finish the job" as it were because a, these instances are somewhat ambiguous about his actual fate and b, he never considers him to be a clear cut threat that has to stopped once and for all. 

If he dies this time, he dies; if he doesn't(and he usually doesn't), then ah well, that means another game of wrecking his plans in the future.

[Splash the Otter]

Killing Eggman would shake up the status quo too much for Sega's liking.

[DabigRG]

Okay, address the OP properly:

2 hours ago, Plasme said:

I think this really starts in the Adventure Era. In Adventure 1, Eggman tries to blow up all of Station Square and presumably kill everyone in the end of Tails' story. Eggman's murderous intent isn't glossed over either, Eggman concedes that "he's ruined" and now that he has no chance of forming his own empire he might as well just take everyone down with him (ie, kill everyone). The line is even delivered in an over the top dark way.

Actually, his determination was that he WILL destroy Station Square despite all the setbacks. Completing forgetting that nuking it will likely kill hundreds of people--including himself. 

After all, we know Eggman is too self important to knowingly doom his own life.

2 hours ago, Plasme said:

 I have to say though that his very short monologue over finally defeating Sonic is dark and jarring.

Actually, he was saying a quiet farewell to Sonic as a worthy adversary.

The disturbing part is arguably when he turns around ten seconds later to negotiate that Tails give him the real Emerald, promising that he'll let them go.

2 hours ago, Plasme said:

If Eggman is actually going to try and kill the heroes, and hold them hostage, why shouldn't characters like Shadow contemplate killing him and ending it for good?

 

Honestly, not too much.

Because he, Espio, Blaze, and even Sonic himself have all attempted/considered it in the past.

 

With that said, it's better off not being seriously talked about in-universe beyond Pre-Asskissing One-Liners and brief, if fruitless displays of their character. Which Shadow himself can't really do anymore outside of IDW, which at least had Forces as a founding point.

2 hours ago, Plasme said:

 

It's easy to blame this on the older games, but it can be seen in new material too. 

In the newer games, Eggman's violence is played up for laughs, but its done very clumsily because it just glosses over the implications of that violence. If Eggman really does plan to murder those against him, then why is no one bothered or considers taking more drastic action. 

Honestly, the only time it ever bothered me was with Forces.

3 hours ago, Plasme said:

 In Sonic Lost World, Eggman seriously threatens the Zeti and Sonic awkwardly references Eggman's plans as genocide.

To be fair here, it was essentially him getting on their level, especially since Zavok & Zazz made it clear they plan to enjoy sucking the life out of Sonic's world.

The genocide line was because Eggman was talking about a way to destroy the Zeti that would involve destroying a lot of other things with them. 

3 hours ago, Plasme said:

 

These problems are unique to Sonic and can't really be seen in similar games. Bowser doesn't taunt Mario that he's going to murder him, King Deedede doesn't hold prisoners hostage and exchange their lives to accomplish his goals.

 

Dude, I'm semi sure Bowser has tried to kill Mario numerous times.

5 hours ago, Plasme said:

. And while Shadow comes across quite dorky and stupid in the show, his violent intent is never played down for laughs.

Admittedly, the cartoon can also be clumsy. Eggman's robots almost kill Tails in the first episode and the show builds drama and tension with the idea Tails could actually have been killed in the attack. Yet Team Sonic never really reacts to Eggman as a genuine mortal danger as they do with Shadow, and his antics are usually glossed over. I think that's because they quickly moved away from Eggman as a sinister presence after the early episodes though. Although maybe someone more versed in the cartoon than me could defend it on that front.

Dorky? 

Anyway, that was less about Eggman being threatening and more about Tails being in legitimate danger during what seemed like a run of the mill fight.

 

 

 

[Heckboy]

18 hours ago, Plasme said:

These have all been really interesting and great responses!

Although Diogenes, that video of Bowser burning to death was horrifying. They went way overboard with that.

I don't think they went overboard at all, it's like Tom and Jerry-level violence.

16 hours ago, Splash the Otter said:

Killing Eggman would shake up the status quo too much for Sega's liking.

Eggman is their mascot villain, why should they kill him?

[QuantumEdge]

13 minutes ago, Heckboy said:

I don't think they went overboard at all, it's like Tom and Jerry-level violence.

Eggman is their mascot villain, why should they kill him?

Because they're chomping at the bit to finally let Zavok take his place at the right moment...

[DabigRG]

24 minutes ago, QuantumEdge said:

Because they're chomping at the bit to finally let Zavok take his place at the right moment...

I'm pretty sure that's not at all the intention and I don't know why people seem think that way when it comes to franchises. Zavok(and Zazz among the rest of the Deadly Six) is almost certainly hanging around because they simply want more recurring villains for variety.

Advertisements for Sonic Team Racing in particular imply that his place on Team Eggman is more about convenience from a game design standpoint, as he is set to be following his own agenda in the story proper. Which is interestingly/humorous unorthodox, admittedly.

[HywelAtTheMoon]

Some media have shown Eggman being captured/arrested. However, it isn't long before he breaks out, or is broken out. How would you show a more secure way of imprisonment? 

[Nestor]

Short of sending him to the Phantom Zone or something, Eggman is always going to relatively easily escape, either using his own technical ingenuity or by something like Metal Sonic breaking him out; it's kind of a narrative necessity, just as Sonic will always escape whenever he gets captured.

If you had to show something more secure to give at least some suspension of disbelief that he was seriously imprisoned, I suppose some sort of GUN supermax style affair would be the way to go.

[HywelAtTheMoon]

28 minutes ago, Nestor said:

Short of sending him to the Phantom Zone or something, Eggman is always going to relatively easily escape, either using his own technical ingenuity or by something like Metal Sonic breaking him out; it's kind of a narrative necessity, just as Sonic will always escape whenever he gets captured.

If you had to show something more secure to give at least some suspension of disbelief that he was seriously imprisoned, I suppose some sort of GUN supermax style affair would be the way to go.

Stuck in a different dimension still won't keep him down for long. Forces' Null Space (somehow escaped, but took a while to regain his memories (looking at IDW's story here) ), and Generations' White Space (possibly had help eventually from the younger Eggman) are good examples. 

 

I'm thinking of a cryogenic approach, similar to Shadow's origin story, or the Triple Max containment in Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay. The only issue is that someone would break him out sooner or later. Maybe into a future where Sonic is no longer around to deal with him. 

[MadmanRB]

Well fort me I kind of like the fact they made the Good doctor a threat again in Forces, for too long he has been the butt of the joke.

Now should he kill?

Well its clear by his schemes he does want to cause sonic and pals great harm, so him wanting sonic dead is sort of implied.

Now should sonic kill? no

I can see shadow do it thus causing a moral divide between him and Sonic, much like the divide between spider man and Punisher

[Iko]

I think death and killing are part of the franchise, but they are only implied and never shown on screen because of the age rating.

Sonic wouldn't kill anyone because of his morals, he just wants to stop Eggman, not to kill him. Someone like Shadow may want to kill him maybe, but Sonic Team won't allow him to do it because the main villain of the series can't be killed, so they will just ignore that possibility hoping that nobody will ever question about it. Otherwise, it may be another Knuckles & Master Emerald situation, maybe Shadow is implied to work with the government's army to kill eggman but it happens off-screen and Eggman is implied to escape and survive all the times.

On 3/9/2019 at 8:45 PM, Plasme said:

These problems are unique to Sonic and can't really be seen in similar games. Bowser doesn't taunt Mario that he's going to murder him, King Deedede doesn't hold prisoners hostage and exchange their lives to accomplish his goals.

Well, the Kirby series has its dark moments and the theme of death has been faced a couple of times in it.

Aside of Metaknight actually wanting to kill Kirby (he says it in a dialogue of Kirby Superstar), there's Planet Robobot where at one point it's implied that a boss absorbed a character, and as you fight that boss, you hear that character's screams. The absorbed character is implied to be dead at the end of the game, and while that thing only happens in the True Arena (that's a what-if canon), it still implies that you are killing him and making him suffer during the bossfight (that's IMO the most disturbing thing in the series, even worse than the bleeding eyeball in Kirby's Dream Land 3).

Yeah, it's just implied, it relies on interpretation, but the game suggests that he's been killed more than not.

[Tarnish]

On 3/9/2019 at 8:45 PM, Plasme said:

So the question is, seeing as the series frequently draws attention to Eggman as murderous in a manner which far eclipses other children media, why shouldn't we ask why the heroes, and especially Shadow, don't consider taking more drastic action?

This could be asked about literally any game/comic/TV series about heroes and villains. The villain commits a ton of crime, usually killing innocents in the process, hero shows up, defeats the villain and puts it behind bars, only for the villain to escape, commit crimes again killing innocents in the process, rinse and repeat. Over. And over. And over. Again. And again. Year and year again.

The whole "hero believes that everyone is redeemable" is a decent excuse...for a while. But when a villain starts a killing rampage for the 20th time, it's kinda obvious the villain isn't gonna change, at which point you really start to question whose side is the "hero" really on.

"You could have prevented a lot of innocent people from dying!"

"Sorry, I don't kill."

"I'm sure that makes the relatives of all the dead people feel a lot better!"

[Dash Speed]

All i know it makes Shadow feel less unimpressive in his role as the anti hero and equal of sonic.

[Shadowlax]

On 3/9/2019 at 3:05 PM, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Because Sonic believes that everyone is redeemable, and capable of good. Eggman has also had plenty of times in the past where he's done good things, even in IDW's continuity where Lost World is canon, and he saved Tails' life numerous times.

On top of that, Shadow doesn't really get a high horse to speak of because as IDW pointed out - Shadow was even worse than Eggman at one point.

Eh, he was being manipulated and when working under normal faculties , did the right thing. And yeah.

I don't think its compatible really. One guy literally when his memories were working properly stopped being bad, vs a dictator.

To the question in general sonic isn't the guy to kill anyone. But comparing shadow to eggman is kind of insulting to the former for a few reasons. Its some weird " Bothsides -ism " that I frankly do not wish to see out of sonic. I don't want to see sonic in the modern day where right wing dictators are starting to rise in the world to suggest that the dictator and the guy who was being manipulated then stopped... are the same thing really. Its not a good look, especially with the twitter tweeting an actual dictator... even as a joke.

All that said, Shadow will hopefully be able to point out on a very high edgy horse that sonic was kinda dumb soon enough

[Ryannumber1gamer]

20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Eh, he was being manipulated and when working under normal faculties , did the right thing. And yeah.

I don't think its compatible really. One guy literally when his memories were working properly stopped being bad, vs a dictator.

To the question in general sonic isn't the guy to kill anyone. But comparing shadow to eggman is kind of insulting to the former for a few reasons. Its some weird " Bothsides -ism " that I frankly do not wish to see out of sonic. I don't want to see sonic in the modern day where right wing dictators are starting to rise in the world to suggest that the dictator and the guy who was being manipulated then stopped... are the same thing really. Its not a good look, especially with the twitter tweeting an actual dictator... even as a joke.

All that said, Shadow will hopefully be able to point out on a very high edgy horse that sonic was kinda dumb soon enough

How is it insulting? Shadow for all purposes was classed as a villain until Sonic Adventure 2's endgame. I don't understand why on Earth you're dragging in a ton of real-world conversation of dictators, right wingers, or whatever else about this over the top series about a cartoon hedgehog fighting a fat balding man, because frankly, it doesn't fit, and it's a downright strawman to justify why we can't compare Shadow's actions to Eggman's actions.

But going onto your point. No, because despite his memory being bad, planning to commit genocide on many, many, many innocent people because of the actions of one lone G.U.N soldier many years ago. That isn't comparing one guy who's memories weren't working vs a dictator, that's comparing someone who was possibly bad down to his core to even be able to justify killing that many people who are completely and totally unrelated to what happened due to his own faulty memory of Maria telling him to do it. No matter the justification, that is a really bad thing to do.

Eggman's actions, especially in the likes of Forces wouldn't suddenly become justifiable if a twist revealed that he was mis-remembering his grandfather's wishes and believed that's what Gerald Robotnik wanted, nor should Shadow's own actions be justified because of what motivated him to do it. Because despite the tragic downfall of Maria, and Shadow's own redemption - what Shadow wanted to do was cold, hard, brutal murder against untold millions based on what he believed was a selfish and horrifying last request. 

Eggman's current actions in IDW have been caused by Starline brainwashing him back to his original persona while Eggman was content and very strictly stuck in his Tinkerer persona. Using that line of logic that you're now trying to justify for Shadow, you could use the exact same thing to defend Eggman right now. That Starline took a sick man with a bad memory, manipulated and forcefully altered said memory, and made him into a insane madman once more.

And I'm fully aware we're taking this to a ridiculous degree, that we're taking the actions of edgy characters in an over the top action series to a completely silly standard of realism, but that's an inherit problem with this topic's core in the first place. You can't take Eggman's actions into some kind of horrifically realistic vacuum whilst pretending Shadow's actions are A-OK because by the standards of the Sonic series and it's cartooniness, that's not as bad as it seems.

If you want to use the same ploys used against Eggman right now to make him seem like a complete and total monster that desires killing, despite the fact many others in this topic like @Wraith and @Strickerx5 have pointed out that this is par for the course for children's media, and many others have gone farther with this kind of thing, then you have to accept that the exact same reasonings and standings will be used to determine the other characters' actions.

In which case, my original argument still stands completely - why should Shadow be getting a free pass for his actions despite his actions being arguably worse than Eggman's? It doesn't matter if he was manipulated, or misremembered, or whatever else, because the very single core fact remains - Shadow the Hedgehog was very much willing to first use a giant power cannon to blow up the planet and murder untold millions, and then when the ARK was going to kill them all and still fullfill his original goals, he had no problem with letting it happen til he realised he misremembered what Maria wanted. 

The only difference is Shadow had just enough time to realise what he was doing was wrong, and redeemed himself right near the moment of no return. Eggman hasn't done that yet. However, that's what the very core of this debate was - that Eggman should've been killed when his redemption moment reared his head. When Eggman finally had the chance to redeem himself, Sonic was willing to give it, as he did to Shadow all those years ago, despite his actions being on par, if not worse than Eggman's, and that's what shut Shadow down with this debate in the first place.

He has no leg to stand on in regards to this debate and killing Eggman, because he has been down the literal exact same road as him, and still managed to come out of it as a reasonably heroic figure now. Following his train of logic, Sonic should've killed Shadow then and there on the ARK because Shadow was willing to let so many people get killed just to fulfill a petty revenge scheme, and yet he didn't, and Shadow became a good person from it, and redeemed himself for his past mistakes.