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NoirSuede

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Introverts don't socialize much because they don't want to, not because they have some prior responsibility that they're beholden to. You don't temporarily become an introvert just because your mom makes you clean your room before you're allowed to go hang with your friends.

 

In any case, Knuckles and Blaze still chose to keep themselves, regardless of whether or not it was because they were introverts or not. That's enough of a similarity; they were both loners.

Edited by Diesel
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Shadow has a stigma attached to him that is almost undodgeable, which makes a world of difference between him and Knuckles.

Knuckles had a backstory that was pretty well done and positively recieved, with the elaboration it gained in SA1 also being well liked and accepted. His entire occupation is based on what was laid down in his foundations, so for that reason, his OOC moments are seen as diversions from his original interpretation and people have more than enough reason to still find worth in him.

Shadow also had a good backstory. However, Sega went out of their way to rewrite it and then made it unbelievably awful. Like Knuckles, Shadow's entire occupation is based on what his foundation and backstory was... but that backstory foundation was changed into something much, much worse.

And I would personally love Shadow to be treated like a better character, and be written better. But considering the stigma he'd left from the games he had the most presence in, I imagine it'd be hard to bring him back unless they were to either to never refer back to it ever (which would require the series to try to reevaluate his purpose), or rewrite the whole thing a second time / retcon it so that SA2's story was forever how it went and he's still alive and around because reasons.

In fact I imagine it'd be hard to bring back Shadow while convincing people it's not like how it was last time he was in the spotlight.

But whatever. I'm exhausted from this now.

Shadow has a stigma because everyone keeps using him as the scapegoat for literally everything wrong with the franchise :V

Regardless, there is literally no reason why people need to constantly bring up his bad appearances in regards to his future because its literally no longer relevant. All of his subsequent appearances make little to no reference to it, so I don't see why any of it should even matter at this point. 

 

All I'm really saying is "Let it Go" if people can ignore Knuckles` bad appearances and see what he can offer, there's no reason why the same cannot be said for Shadow. I'm tired of fans treating him like this blight on the franchise when he's really no more of a victim of its follies than anyone else, especially when their reasoning for it basically amounts to preaching the flaws of a game from years in the past. 

Its ironic when you think about it too, the game that was meant to serve as the conclusion to his character arc is the one nobody ever forgets about. 

But yes, I still want him to win and there's nothing you can tell me to change my mind, nananana :P

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Shadow has a stigma because everyone keeps using him as the scapegoat for literally everything wrong with the franchise :V

Can I ask why is that? 

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Can I ask why is that? 

Because he's a lot of what's wrong with the franchise.

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Because he's a lot of what's wrong with the franchise.

Explain. How?

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Explain. How?

Because having one or two bad appearances means he's literally the worst thing about the franchise and you should define his entire character  by those bad appearances alone and literally nothing else, because "they don't matter".

Or what Verte said, its easy to just scapegoat a controversial character when you can't construct a proper argument.

Edited by Kuzu the Boloedge
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Can I ask why is that? 

Because it easier to pour the blame onto a controversial and therefore easy to scapegoat character for the franchise's foibles when you don't know what you're talking about (But want to look as if you do by jumping on a bandwagon) than it is to actually construct an informed argument that cites the real things wrong with the franchise and what has actually caused those problems.

I legitimately can't think of one issue plaguing this franchise that has anything to do with Shadow as a character.

I can however cite bad game design, bad writers and the inability to stop making questionable experiments that yield poor-average results as prominent issues though.

 

 

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Because having one or two bad appearances means he's literally the worst thing about the franchise and deserves to die. Because he's terrible and you shouldn't like him :V

By that logic shouldn't sonic be the scape got since he's appeared in how many terrible games?

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By that logic shouldn't sonic be the scape got since he's appeared in how many terrible games?

Shadow's an easier target because he's controversial and "edgy" and not the main character.

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Keep in mind that Shadow's the only Sonic character that's been given a game where riding motorcycles, wielding machine guns and swearing like an edgy 14-year old is part of the "experience."

Shadow himself shouldn't be the scapegoat, bad game development and writing should be, but it doesn't take much to reasonably come to the conclusion that almost anything associated with this character has unintentionally lampshaded everything "tryhard" and "overly dark" the series tried to dive into in the mid-2000s. At the very least, Shadow is a posterchild of the series' less flattering eras.

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Because having one or two bad appearances means he's literally the worst thing about the franchise and deserves to die. Because he's terrible and you shouldn't like him :V

Calling Shadow's entire game "one or two bad appearances" is just about the understatement of the century and you know it.

And Jiminy H. Christmas, no one here said he deserved to die or was the worst thing about the franchise (except maybe Diogenes). Unless you're referring to some group outside the fanbase, I don't know who you think is really saying that. In all honesty, Sonic gets more on the shit end for deserving to die nowadays.. you know, what with being the main character and all.

Shadow's got a really, really shittily handled backstory. Does that mean he couldn't be done justice nowadays? No, he definitely could. Does that mean he doesn't have any worth to him? No, it doesn't, in fact he'd be a very interesting character. But yet if that's all the case, does that mean anyone's just gonna accept him as a main character in a new game without remembering the bad taste Sega left in their mouths over him? No, not at all! Which is why he'd need a lot more work to prove his worth compared to a character like Knuckles or Tails or what have you!

Which has been my point this entire time. You can keep handing it in to hyperbole, hatedom or favoritism or some shit, but that has not been any of my argument, or much of anyone's.

Whatever, man.

 

Edited by Azoo
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I want a retconned origin story where Shadow pops out of Dr Robotnik's machine and asks if he is his mother, and then licks his face.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

AoStH reference, folks.

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Calling Shadow's entire game "one or two bad appearances" is just about the understatement of the century and you know it.

And Jiminy H. Christmas, no one here said he deserved to die or was the worst thing about the franchise. Unless you're referring to some group outside the fanbase, I don't know who you think is really saying that. In all honesty, Sonic gets more on the shit end for deserving to die nowadays.. you know, what with being the main character and all.

Shadow's got a really, really shittily handled backstory. Does that mean he couldn't be done justice nowadays? No, he definitely could. Does that mean he doesn't have any worth to him? No, it doesn't, in fact he'd be a very interesting character. But yet if that's all the case, does that mean anyone's just gonna accept him as a main character in a new game without remembering the bad taste Sega left in their mouths over him? No, not at all! Which is why he'd need a lot more work to prove his worth compared to a character like Knuckles or Tails or what have you!

Which has been my point this entire time. You can keep handing it in to hyperbole or favoritism or some shit, but that has not been any of my argument, or much of anyone's. Whatever, man.

 

I was being mostly facetious when I said that.

But since we're gonna continue this :V, nobody is going to give Shadow a chance over the likes of Tails or Knuckles; nobody even tries to give him a chance anymore. Any time Shadow makes an appearance, its mostly met with "lol edgy" He is quite literally, as Indigo put it, the poster child for "edgy", all because he was a prominent figure in a time when the franchise did bad, a time that's no longer even relevant.  

I'm just tired of feeling like its wrong to like this character.

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I was being mostly facetious when I said that.

But since we're gonna continue this :V, nobody is going to give Shadow a chance over the likes of Tails or Knuckles; nobody even tries to give him a chance anymore. Any time Shadow makes an appearance, its mostly met with "lol edgy" He is quite literally, as Indigo put it, the poster child for "edgy", all because he was a prominent figure in a time when the franchise did bad, a time that's no longer even relevant.  

I'm just tired of feeling like its wrong to like this character.

I'm sure there are a lot of people like you, me, Azoo etc. who are open-minded to not write Shadow off because of his track record with the mid-00 games. Sadly some people aren't gonna be persuaded unless Azoo or someone writes an article for Sonic Stadium that goes into as much depth as Hogfather's Big article in Shadow's defense.

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In any case, Knuckles and Blaze still chose to keep themselves, regardless of whether or not it was because they were introverts or not. That's enough of a similarity; they were both loners.

That's not at all he same thing and you know it. 

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I'm sure there are a lot of people like you, me, Azoo etc. who are open-minded to not write Shadow off because of his track record with the mid-00 games. Sadly some people aren't gonna be persuaded unless Azoo or someone writes an article for Sonic Stadium that goes into as much depth as Hogfather's Big article in Shadow's defense.

Yo, if I knew how to write news articles, I would legit give the staff an entire essay on why Shadow is an amazing character and does not deserve half of the shit he gets. Especially if I thought it would actually get posted.

Edited by Kuzu the Boloedge
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I was being mostly facetious when I said that.

But since we're gonna continue this :V, nobody is going to give Shadow a chance over the likes of Tails or Knuckles; nobody even tries to give him a chance anymore. Any time Shadow makes an appearance, its mostly met with "lol edgy" He is quite literally, as Indigo put it, the poster child for "edgy", all because he was a prominent figure in a time when the franchise did bad, a time that's no longer even relevant.  

I'm just tired of feeling like its wrong to like this character.

It's not wrong to like Shadow, and it's not wrong to want him back. Unless you really like what ShTH brought to the table or something lol

But you honestly can't expect them to bring Shadow back as a main character in a game without Sega having to prove that it's not gonna be like the last few times. Just casually sliding Shadow back in would lead to outrage because of how much people don't like him, much like if Big ever made another main appearance in a game. And I'd love Big to make another appearance! But if either were to return, it would require Sega to make a point out of it so that they could turn it around and make them loved again.

And I guess my point was that I'd rather Knuckles or Blaze or someone (characters with good reputations (that are also being argued about in this topic)) get focus before him, because all I want of them is more of their presence, and maybe more elaboration on who they are than before. 

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Shadow is just a painful example of how fan popularity can ruin a characters credibility. I don't think shadow deserves the hate he gets because he isn't the only character in the franchise to get royally screwed.

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Keep in mind that Shadow's the only Sonic character that's been given a game where riding motorcycles, wielding machine guns and swearing like an edgy 14-year old is part of the "experience."

Shadow himself shouldn't be the scapegoat, bad game development and writing should be, but it doesn't take much to reasonably come to the conclusion that almost anything associated with this character has unintentionally lampshaded everything "tryhard" and "overly dark" the series tried to dive into in the mid-2000s. At the very least, Shadow is a posterchild of the series' less flattering eras.

It should also be pointed out that no amount of focusing on the "real problems" would have made the concept itself and how Shadow was inextricably linked to it be received any better. Ratchet Deadlocked and Jak II were both entries in series much better than anything Sonic Team was putting out from developers much more talented than anyone at Sonic Team was, and they were and are both still widely mocked for the same thing that Shadow was and is.

 

Shadow is an easy scapegoat because his game and his appearance in the one following it were a cynical bit of hack pandering approaching Bubsy levels. The two games it happened in could have been Mario Galaxy quality and the disconnect and the shadow (hue hue hue) they cast over the series would have still been there. And that's a pretty big stigma to overcome when the games were in fact shit instead.

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It's not wrong to like Shadow, and it's not wrong to want him back. Unless you really like what ShTH brought to the table or something lol

But you honestly can't expect them to bring Shadow back as a main character in a game without Sega having to prove that it's not gonna be like the last few times. Just casually sliding Shadow back in would lead to outrage because of how much people don't like him, much like if Big ever made another main appearance in a game. And I'd love Big to make another appearance! But if either were to return, it would require Sega to make a point out of it so that they could turn it around and make them loved again.

But he's already made appearances that aren't even linked to his old games, so like...what's it gonna take? At what point is it going to be considered alright for him to make an appearance without people losing their collective shit about games from 10 years ago?

If that's the case, I'd rather they either don't use him at all just pacify fans that can't stand his very existence or just say "fuck it" and have him appear regardless of reception.

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But he's already made appearances that aren't even linked to his old games, so like...what's it gonna take? At what point is it going to be considered alright for him to make an appearance without people losing their collective shit about games from 10 years ago?

If that's the case, I'd rather they either don't use him at all just pacify fans that can't stand his very existence or just say "fuck it" and have him appear regardless of reception.

He's been in minor appearances in spinoffs or whatever. Ones where he's just like "yeah I'm Shadow" and here's over there doing broody Shadow things with Rouge and Omega or some Omega-expy like that one robot. And then you have Generations, where you fight him, but the fight is ambiguous on whether it's a battle with the Shadow of now or just a re-imagining of the SA2 battle (...pun intended?).

Those aren't like major appearances where he's a main character. There's no focus on him at all, besides the immediate response like "oh I'm playing as him and get to hear him make quips in a racing game with an excuse plot", or "oh I'm fighting him just like old times on my Dreamcube". 

He has a bad stigma for every game past SA2 he's been in. If he were to come back to that, they'd have to try to rekindle what made people like him in the first place and force fans to forget what they did before, or just shine a new light on him altogether.

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He's been in minor appearances in spinoffs or whatever. Ones where he's just like "yeah I'm Shadow" and here's over there doing broody Shadow things with Rouge and Omega or some Omega-expy like that one robot. And then you have Generations, where you fight him, but the fight is ambiguous on whether it's a battle with the Shadow of now or just a re-imagining of the SA2 battle (...pun intended?).

Those aren't like major appearances where he's a main character. There's no focus on him at all, besides the immediate response like "oh I'm playing as him and get to hear him make quips in a racing game with an excuse plot", or "oh I'm fighting him just like old times on my Dreamcube". 

He has a bad stigma for every game past SA2 he's been in. If he were to come back to that, they'd have to try to rekindle what made people like him in the first place and force fans to forget what they did before, or just shine a new light on him altogether.

I highly doubt they're ever going to make Shadow as prominent as he was back in Sonic Adventure 2, ever. He makes prominent appearances in the comics (had his own arc not too long ago), but apparently they "don't count" along with spin offs.

So screw it, I'd rather ride off his appearances in the comics rather than wait for Sonic Team to get off their ass and do something with him.

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Why would the comics count? 

Because right now, they are as close to the games without actually being them.

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