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[Nepenthe]

At this point, does it even fucking matter anymore to discuss Shadow as a character, from either point of view? I mean seriously, does it even fucking matter? We've had the exact same arguments on the current incarnation and potential future of this dude for over ten goddamn years, and not only has his reputation gotten worse, even without appearing in any major installments, but Sega is probably not going to even give him another main role since they're not intent on giving anyone aside from Sonic and Tails a main role, and if they did there's no way Shadow is next in line considering the amount of baggage he has in the community and gaming at large. So seriously, what does the continued negativity even matter? We get it; Shadow currently sucks and will probably not get a chance in the foreseeable future to be used in an appropriate manner. There's nothing else to be mined from this. Can we shit on someone else for once?....

Like Charmy. Yeeeaaaah, I have a few choice words for that annoying fucker.

[Dejimon11]

At this point, does it even fucking matter anymore to discuss Shadow as a character, from either point of view? I mean seriously, does it even fucking matter? We've had the exact same arguments on the current incarnation and potential future of this dude for over ten goddamn years, and not only has his reputation gotten worse, even without appearing in any major installments, but Sega is probably not going to even give him another main role since they're not intent on giving anyone aside from Sonic and Tails a main role, and if they did there's no way Shadow is next in line considering the amount of baggage he has in the community and gaming at large. So seriously, what does the continued negativity even matter? We get it; Shadow currently sucks. There's nothing else to be mined from this. Can we shit on someone else for once?....

Like Charmy. Yeeeaaaah, I have a few choice words for that annoying fucker.

Everybody currently sucks. The only characters that SEGA/Sonic Team seem to care about right now are Sonic because main character, Tails because smart sidekick scientist(try saying that 3 times fast) and Eggman because the main villain and he seems to be the only character they actually put effort into when writing which is getting annoying.

[Nepenthe]

Let's not put every single character on equal footing just because Sega simply doesn't want to use them in any notable way.

[Kuzu]

Yea, Shadow definitely gets worst of it compared to literally everyone else.

 

...So yea, how Vector and Rouge? Let's talk about them for a bit.

I'm rather surprised Vector is winning to be honest, I always figured people liked him as part of the Chaotix as a whole, especially since Rouge has been more prominent overall.

[Diesel]

That's not at all he same thing and you know it. 

Knuckles and Blaze both were loners. May have not been for the same reasons, but they were loners nonetheless. Thus, they're similar int hat regard.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Diesel

[Diogenes]

They also both have two feet. They're similar in that regard.

[Nepenthe]

Knuckles and Blaze both were loners before they met Sonic. May have not been for the same reasons, but they were still loners.

So you're not going to address the fact that the Sonic 3 manual stated that Knuckles had friends before Sonic and just continue saying this as if repetition magically adds validity to an argument? Are are you going to finally take the L and move on?

...So yea, how Vector and Rouge? Let's talk about them for a bit.

I'm rather surprised Vector is winning to be honest, I always figured people liked him as part of the Chaotix as a whole, especially since Rouge has been more prominent overall.

Rouge has the Shadow baggage and her general reputation as furry fodder/a whore/inappropriate to contend with. They're not particularly popular characters, but it doesn't surprise me that Vector has the better reputation between the two.

[Kuzu]

Rouge has the Shadow baggage and her general reputation as furry fodder/a whore/inappropriate to contend with. They're not particularly popular characters, but it doesn't surprise me that Vector has the better reputation between the two.

I always figured people blamed Shadow (surprise surprise :V) for being the face of Team Dark and reducing Rouge's prominence and that people wanted her to branch out a bit. The furry comment tho makes sense, I forgot how the internet feels about furries. 

[Diesel]

So you're not going to address the fact that the Sonic 3 manual stated that Knuckles had friends before Sonic and just continue saying this as if repetition magically adds validity to an argument? Are are you going to finally take the L and move on?

He may have had friends before meeting Sonic, but he was still a loner, as was Blaze.

[azoo]

Knuckles and Blaze both were loners. May have not been for the same reasons, but they were loners nonetheless. Thus, they're similar int hat regard.

Nope.

Blaze = introverted. Very shy and reserved to herself. Didn't like communicating much, didn't trust anyone outside herself until Sonic came and alongside Cream's efforts, managed to get Blaze to open up more. Otherwise surrounded by royalty and her people, she's never really without company present until she steps out for herself.

Knuckles = loner wrong word usage, let's just go with guardian. Only on his lonesome due to the position of his self appointed job as guardian of the Master Emerald, Hidden Palace, and the entirety of Angel Island. He likes people's company despite being a bit inept at communication and prone to gullibility. Worked well with Eggman and wasn't afraid to give him as much hell as he could when he found out Eggman's intents. Is pretty laid back friends with Sonic,Tails, and Amy. Nervous around girls, implying he'll at least interact with them.. which we actually see with Rouge's presence.

To put it in short, they're actually opposites.

Oh yeah, and I know we keep quoting the Sonic 3 Japanese manual about him being friendly with the animals, but you know, just to nip it in the bud, let's actually bring some more solid proof.

Sure looks like he was hanging out with the animals to me before this bomb was dropped.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Azoo

[Your Vest Friend]

You guys really think SEGA would try and justify Shadow appearing to the audience when he was thrown into Boom last minute to provide some popularity recognition? He still has quite a lot of pull, regardless of the hatedom. 

[Tornado]

"He had friends but they weren't really friends because he was all alone until Sonic came along and made everything great" sounds like Chris.

[Kuzu]

You guys really think SEGA would try and justify Shadow appearing to the audience when he was thrown into Boom last minute to provide some popularity recognition? He still has quite a lot of pull, regardless of the hatedom. 

An appearance that's generally considered poor by the masses mind you, but *shrug* no such thing as bad publicity I suppose. 

 

And for fuck's sake, we're still arguing the Knuckles & Blaze thing? Screw this, I'm coming back when there's a relevant subject.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Knuckles and Blaze both were loners. May have not been for the same reasons, but they were loners nonetheless. Thus, they're similar int hat regard.

Can you prove that Blaze was a loner? 

[Nepenthe]

He may have had friends before meeting Sonic, but he was still a loner, as was Blaze.

First you said that Blaze was a rip-off of Knuckles because they're loner guardians, and you were argued down by multiple people pointing out the significant differential context between their life stations and personalities based on the games' stories and character profiles themselves. Part of this was based on the whole "introvert" angle where you once again used a word that you don't know the definition of.

Then you switched gears and kept pushing this thing about Knuckles not "opening up to others" before Sonic came along, and to refute any arguments that he did open up to someone (namely Eggman) before befriending Sonic, you suddenly applied a random-ass subjective definition and said "herpaderp opening up actually means having friends!" So me and Osmium actually obliged the inane request for proof and proved that Knuckles had friends before Sonic came along.  

You've completely failed to recognize this fact and mend your argument in light of the information. Now you're saying "well, he's still a loner" (which makes no goddamn sense if the guy has friends) as if it's a meaningful enough similarity to conclude that Blaze is a complete rip-off, as if other characters aren't introverted, all this time providing no actual information from the games to support your argument while also, I must reiterate, having the fucking audacity to ask anyone else for proof. And this is all regardless of the fact that you've outwardly refused and ignored to address the vast swathe of differences Blaze has with Knuckles in your conclusion. 

I'm telling you to stop moving the goalposts not only because its only result is that you're responsible for shitting up yet another topic, but being stubborn and refusing to acknowledge proper refutations to your arguments is thankfully against the fucking rules you agreed to abide by when you signed up here. And that's me reading your posts in actual good faith. If I were to read your posts in bad faith, it would be that you're nothing more than a troll, which is also against the rules. 

Tornado already told you you're on thin ice in the racism thread, but I'm not in the mood to see you continue to make a fucking circus out of a topic because you're too bullheaded to recognize when the logic with which you've based an opinion makes no sense or is rooted in terrible or nonexistent terms and definitions. You've literally yet to contribute honestly and positively to the boards nor learn a goddamn thing, so I'm giving you three choices: You can mend your argument in light of all of the information you've been given by the various members here and actually try to have a productive conversation, leave the topic, or get banned if you repeat yourself. And yes, this ultimatum applies to every other topic in which you're being a brick wall in.

[AshGreninJovan]

New Record:

"This thread has reached 6 pages with lots of arguments since someone made a mistake."

Man, these are like debating between politicians. I'm surprised then.

[Diesel]

Sorry to remind you this, but those arguments were already over about an hour ago.

Not yet.

Knuckles wasn't a loner y'know.

his duty kept him from meeting people that weren't on his Island, therefore, he could only be with his animal friends because they were the only creatures on the Island that he could talk to. So yeah that doesn't make him a loner. If he is/was a loner, then why spend time with the animals?

Loners can still have friends. 

The lyrics to "Unknown from M.E." say he's a loner:

My spikes go through boulders

That's why I stay a loner

I was born by myself, I don't need a posse

I get it on by myself, advisories get shelved

 

His Sonic City profile from 2008 says he's a loner: http://web.archive.org/web/20080225070243/http://www.sonic-city.com/en/characters/knuckles/index.html

Knuckles can be a bit of a loner, which may explain why he is so naive and gullible, and easily tricked by Dr. Eggman.

 

Can you prove that Blaze was a loner? 

Definition of "loner":

a person who prefers not to associate with others. 

Blaze acted like this several times in Sonic Rush.

(7:24-9:02)

When Cream and Vanilla recommended that she get Sonic's help to get back the Sol Emeralds, Blaze turned down their offer and said she'll get them back herself, even to the point of yelling at them.

When she finally met Sonic, she refused to get involved with him (8:56-11:34)

Then, she meets Sonic again and refuses his help to the point where she actually attacks him (6:11-8:59). Only after they're done fighting does Blaze calm down and accept Sonic's help:

https://youtu.be/-N1CTc_XZe8?t=6m11s

Then, there are her official character profiles:

And her profile in Generations.

Sonic Channel circa 2012:

Able to manipulate the "Sol Emeralds", this imperial princess of another world bears the duty to safeguard them as well. Usually she appears to be calm and collected, however she suppresses her feelings and has hidden her emotions within. Exceedingly faithful to her role as guardian of the Sol Emeralds, she has bound herself within strict rules, and therefore may appear shy. However after she happened to encounter with Sonic and friends, Blaze's personality began changing to show a new aspect. Visiting Sonic's world via the power of the Sol Emeralds was possible but the movement of space-time at this time has put an end to that condition.

 

First you said that Blaze was a rip-off of Knuckles because they're loner guardians, and you were argued down by multiple people pointing out the significant differential context between their life stations and personalities based on the games' stories and character profiles themselves. Part of this was based on the whole "introvert" angle where you once again used a word that you don't know the definition of.

My statement that Blaze was a rip-off of Knuckles because they're both loner guardians wasn't "argued down" by anyone; you're just inserting your own bias in your recollection of what transpired in this thread. And no, people did not give any significant differential context between their life stations and personalities.

Then you switched gears and kept pushing this thing about Knuckles not "opening up to others" before Sonic came along, and to refute any arguments that he did open up to someone (namely Eggman) before befriending Sonic, you suddenly applied a random-ass subjective definition and said "herpaderp opening up actually means having friends!" So me and Osmium actually obliged the inane request for proof and proved that Knuckles had friends before Sonic came along.  

I didn't "switch gears"; I maintained my previous argument about Blaze ripping off Knuckles by being a loner guardian. I merely brought up another thing when I said Knuckles didn't open up to others before Sonic.

You've completely failed to recognize this fact and mend your argument in light of the information. Now you're saying "well, he's still a loner" (which makes no goddamn sense if the guy has friends) as if it's a meaningful enough similarity to conclude that Blaze is a complete rip-off, as if other characters aren't introverted, all this time providing no actual information from the games to support your argument while also, I must reiterate, having the fucking audacity to ask anyone else for proof.

Me saying "well, he's still a loner" is mending my argument in light of the information you posted about Knuckles having friends prior to Sonic. I acknowledge that he had friends before Sonic, but he was still a loner. In case you haven't realized, loners CAN have friends. Just because one has friends doesn't mean they're not a loner. A loner is someone who simply prefers not to associate with others; just because they prefer not to associate with others doesn't mean they can't have friends. You clearly don't understand the term "loner".

And this is all regardless of the fact that you've outwardly refused and ignored to address the vast swathe of differences Blaze has with Knuckles in your conclusion. 

 

I did address the "differences" you people brought up between Blaze and Knuckles. Azoo brought up that they don't guard the same types of emeralds nor the same number of emeralds, and I stated that's irrelevant as in the end, they still guard emeralds nonetheless. You brought up Blaze being afraid of heights and conscious about her body, and I said that's irrelevant as it's rarely ever touched upon in the games (the latter isn't touched upon in the games at all). You brought up things like Knuckles and Blaze being of different genders, which is irrelevant, as their genders say nothing about their characterization.

I'm telling you to stop moving the goalposts not only because its only result is that you're responsible for shitting up yet another topic, but being stubborn and refusing to acknowledge proper refutations to your arguments is thankfully against the fucking rules you agreed to abide by when you signed up here. And that's me reading your posts in actual good faith. If I were to read your posts in bad faith, it would be that you're nothing more than a troll, which is also against the rules.

I'm not moving goalposts, and you only think the refutations to my arguments are "proper"; again, you're putting your own bias in your recollection of events that transpired in this thread. And furthermore, I did mend a number of my arguments when users posted information to refute them; for an example, I conceded my argument that Knuckles and Blaze both have fire powers when other people pointed out that their abilities relating to fire aren't the same.

Tornado already told you you're on thin ice in the racism thread, but I'm not in the mood to see you continue to make a fucking circus out of a topic because you're too bullheaded to recognize when the logic with which you've based an opinion makes no sense or is rooted in terrible or nonexistent terms and definitions. You've literally yet to contribute honestly and positively to the boards nor learn a goddamn thing, so I'm giving you three choices: You can mend your argument in light of all of the information you've been given by the various members here and actually try to have a productive conversation, leave the topic, or get banned if you repeat yourself. And yes, this ultimatum applies to every other topic in which you're being a brick wall in.

Do you threaten to ban members every time they don't reach an agreement with you? Do what you want.

Honestly, the community here is very toxic. You people actually lash out at others for simply not being in agreement with you. I've actually been calm in the threads I post in for the most part since I came back from my suspension. The elitist attitude on this board is one of the reasons the Sonic fanbase has such a bad rep. The official Sega boards are actually a lot kinder and more peaceful than here. I'll say bye ahead of time in case I'm banned for posting this.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Diesel

[azoo]

Well, Diesel.

The only reason people ever gave you crap is because you just kept repeating arguments while either reaching for statements by reading into things too hard (like lyrics to Unknown from M.E.? Really dude? :v) or pulling statistics out of thin air. Admittedly, many other people (me included) have been way too exceedingly adamant to respond to you and keep it going in circles and circles and circles and circles and circles, with of course the main thing keeping it cyclical being that you'll claim things that are against your opinions are simply biased and that your opinion is somehow both factual and your own opinion so obviously it shouldn't be questioned for both reasons.

If you get along better with "nicer" people on places like the Sega forums, it's probably because you can be a pushover to other people on there with less effort or questioning. Sorry if managing to debate your (easy to refute against) opinions makes us a "toxic" experience in comparison to that, I guess? We have conversations here all the time that do not end up becoming like the ones everyone has with you on here, and we will continue to as you leave, if that is what you wish.

Oh, and on another note, nobody was denying your claim that they have their similarities. Of course they do, we all know that. It's the part where you make a throwaway claim that they're exactly the same character (one being a ripoff to another, even) and then spend 6 pages trying to cover your ass with poorly constructed arguments that are so shallow and pedantic that you don't know how to respond other than spit it out over and over again while plugging your ears and hoping you win when they give up and you're still talking.

So yeah.

 

 

Anyways, I voted for Vector in the Rouge vs Vector battle. Love ya Rouge, but the croc's got my block. BJ

 

Edited August 30, 2015 by Azoo

[Tornado]

Do you threaten to ban members every time they don't reach an agreement with you?

Spin it however helps you sleep at night.

Honestly, the community here is very toxic. You people actually lash out at others for simply not being in agreement with you.

"It's not my fault. It's someone else's!"

The elitist attitude on this board is one of the reasons the Sonic fanbase has such a bad rep. The official Sega boards are actually a lot kinder and more peaceful than here.

Then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

[Nepenthe]

If I banned everyone who disagreed with me there'd be no Colors fans here. See, I'm tolerant.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Diesel]

If you get along better with "nicer" people on places like the Sega forums, it's probably because you can be a pushover to other people on there with less effort or questioning.

Nah, the community is a lot more chillax there. For an example, a comparison of a thread I posted on both here and the Sega forum:

http://forums.sega.com/showthread.php?526622-The-quot-90s-kid-quot-debate

As you can see, it was a lot more peaceful in the Sega forum. There were still people who disagreed with me, but they still responded more maturely than the people here.

 

Oh, and on another note, nobody was denying your claim that they have their similarities.

 

Blaze is nothing like Knuckles in any way. 

:/

 

Of course they do, we all know that. It's the part where you make a throwaway claim that they're exactly the same character

I didn't say they were the exact same character; I just said Blaze was a rip-off of something. A character being a rip-off of another character doesn't mean they're exactly the same as that other character; it just means that character is an inferior imitation of another character.

[Nepenthe]

You are not in a position to be trying to get the last word in. Make good on your promise to bow out.

[Diesel]

lol I didn't say I was leaving

Also, if you're about to ban me, I only have one strike so far, so don't I need two more for a permaban? Just saying because I personally wouldn't want to get banned already.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Diesel

[azoo]

 Nah, the community is a lot more chillax there. For an example, a comparison of a thread I posted on both here and the Sega forum:

http://forums.sega.com/showthread.php?526622-The-quot-90s-kid-quot-debate

As you can see, it was a lot more peaceful in the Sega forum. There were still people who disagreed with me, but they still responded more maturely than the people here.

You made a topic that was just a statement about some off-hand subject, with no discussion value beyond stating your opinion. We have rules for not making topics like that, and taking posts like that into another topic where you can vent your frustrations and people discuss stuff with you about it. We have these topics for reasons and a lot of people are cool with it. I'm cool with it, you should be cool it, and he she we they be cool with it, and even if anyone gave you lip when you made the topic, the general idea is that you do things and you learn from it and we're all peaches and cream.

How you can turn that around and make it into us being toxic and angry, I dunno. But you did, I guess?

I didn't say they were the exact same character; I just said Blaze was a rip-off of something. A character being a rip-off of another character doesn't mean they're exactly the same as that other character; it just means that character is an inferior imitation of another character.

You cut off the part immediately after that quote where I said "one being a ripoff of the other, even" to make it seem like I was wrong and give you a reason to repeat everything again. Talk about going out of your way to misconstrue something as if people can't read the other post, dude. lol

Well, this topic has been ultra mega derailed by all of this. You know.. the circular arguing, people getting fed up with it, and mods having to intervene while you make it out that we're out to get you (though admittedly, we are very tired of it) and swear that we're as corrupt and broken as your copy of Sonic Adventure. :v

So let's stop, and get back on topic. Last call, man. Last call.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Azoo

[AshGreninJovan]

Anyway, let's get back to what we're facing right now.

So far, Metal Sonic & Vector have much more votes than Blaze & Rouge do. Here's the results right now:

Metal Sonic 56-44 Blaze

Rouge         42-58 Vector