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SatAMhog

Why hasn't Robotnik/Eggman tried outright robotization in the games?

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I was reading through some graphic novels and the thought occured to me--in the games, Robotnik/Eggman puts small animals into robots as a source of energy to run his robots.  But in the cartoons and comics, he outright TURNED them into robots.  Why do you think they've never attempted this plot in the games?  Nowadays, the games have gotten more cartoony in their plots save Forces but Robotnik HAS tried mind control(Sonic Colors, Sonic Adventure when brainwashing the flickies minds with his E-series robots).  Do you think we'll see a plot like this in the games in the future or should be it saved for the comics/possible future cartoon?

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Roboticization is pretty much the logical extreme of the Badnik process to begin with. Still, it is a little odd that it never came up.

I guess it's cause they moved away from emphasizing that aspect of him after Adventure, with Badnik's being mostly replaced with Egg Pawns for a good while.

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6 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Lost world?

That's a legit point for one reason: in the Japanese version, Eggman tells Zavok that it'll be a while before it's "their turn" and until then, they should shut up and do what he says.

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I feel like having both roboticization and animal-in-robot badniks is a bit redundant. The former's just a reinterpretation of the latter anyway, and they already explored some of the related themes with Gamma. It's not really well suited to converting actual characters but, well, that's what mind control is for. The options' presumably on the table if they want it, but I guess they just haven't had interest in using it.

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I'd argue it's a difference of design and the effect on the victim. Roboticized generally look like Metal-Sonic'd versions of the characters they encase, who are fully conscious of their actions, and it also usually is a case of full-sized Sonic-shaped characters. Badniks tend to just use flickies and other tiny animals as a power source, with the robot in question having whatever shape or role Eggy desires, being built in factories rather than 1-by-1 with a special machine.

So I guess the way I'd structure it is like, having badniks be regular stage foes like usual, and roboticized being able to either be bosses or minibosses in their own right or piloting the mechs you see Eggman in for boss fights, I guess depending on the base strength of the individual. It'd be kind of a neat setup to learn about a character or characters across a stage or area and then have to take down their roboticized selves to free them, like a logical extension of what you do with most enemies in the levels.

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Possibly because the implications are so much darker.  The way things are in games, Sonic's animal friends aren't gone for good; he can rescue them by smashing open robots.  If the robots actually are his former friends, though, then if there was any chance of reversing the process, Sonic probably ruins it by destroying them.  This doesn't really lend itself well to the sort of experiences Sonic games promote, which is generally more upbeat and fast, and can't afford to buzzkill players with unfortunate implications.

Then again, they figured we'd be just fine with the probable body count Sonic was wracking up smashing through cars in City Escape...

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Quote

Translation of the Japanese manual

Sonic1 MD JP manual.pdfSonic1 MD JP manual.pdf

(Translation by Windii. Translator’s Note: In this translation, the sentences have been left as grammatically intact as possible in order to more accurately convey the exact wording of the original text. This method, however, results in an unusual sentence structure and flow.)

The evil scientist Doctor Eggman has begun hatching another evil plan.
"Sonic... blast that annoying, impertinent hedgehog. My great plans are always spoiled thanks to him. This time, I'll pinch and crush him with the power of my science! Heheheh..."

This is South Island, a treasure trove of jewels and historic relics. And it is also said that this is the island where the illusionary "Chaos Emeralds" lay dormant. Chaos Emeralds are a super substance that gives energy to all living things. Furthermore, they can also be used as nuclear weapons or high energy laser weapons by science and technology. However, no one knows how to obtain them. That is because South Island is an island that moves around and the Chaos Emeralds exist within the distortions created by the island.

One day, crisis visited upon the island. Doctor Eggman and his gang got down on the island.
"Hmph... I will obtain the Chaos Emeralds, even if I have to dig up this entire island for them."
Doctor Eggman built a huge fortress in the corner of the island and started development.

"That blasted Eggman. He still won't learn his lesson!?"
Sonic came running after hearing rumors. Doctor Eggman's trouble-making is nothing new. Up until now, Sonic dealt with him every time. It appears that Doctor Eggman thinks of Sonic as his arch-nemesis, but he was never any match for Sonic.

But this time, oh my... Something is amiss.

"Behold, Sonic! This time, everything will be different! I turned the island's animals into robots."

"You... you guys!"

"All of them will do as I say. In other words, this whole island is your enemy. Hahahahaha... cough, cough... This time, the world shall be mine~"

This is terrible! Go, Sonic the Hedgehog! Everyone is waiting for your help.

 

Anyway, the text from Sonic Retro's translation of the story in the Japanese manual of the original game implies that Eggman's actions were more to divert Sonic's attention to rescuing the locals and forcing him to hold back rather then as a means of control. In short, putting animals in robots was neither for control of them or to power them, it was more of a glorified hostage situation to serve as a distraction while he searched for the chaos emeralds. 

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10 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Anyway, the text from Sonic Retro's translation of the story in the Japanese manual of the original game implies that Eggman's actions were more to divert Sonic's attention to rescuing the locals and forcing him to hold back rather then as a means of control. In short, putting animals in robots was neither for control of them or to power them, it was more of a glorified hostage situation to serve as a distraction while he searched for the chaos emeralds. 

Wow. That...pretty diabolical.

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16 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Anyway, the text from Sonic Retro's translation of the story in the Japanese manual of the original game implies that Eggman's actions were more to divert Sonic's attention to rescuing the locals and forcing him to hold back rather then as a means of control. In short, putting animals in robots was neither for control of them or to power them, it was more of a glorified hostage situation to serve as a distraction while he searched for the chaos emeralds. 

Hm indeed that is a more logical reason for him to use them that way instead of using them as batteries... using powerless tiny animals for batteries is also not the best concept choice because how could tiny animals work as a better power source then actual batteries anyways? The Wisps were a better middle ground far as using tiny creatures for power as they have supernatural powers.

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9 hours ago, PeterPancake said:

Always preferred the roboticization angle from the comics and cartoons because of the darker implications and the moral questions it raises

In some ways, the animals in Badniks raise other questions.

Are the Badniks separate sentient consciousness of their own? Are they affected by the animal powering them, and if so, how much? (i.e., even if the animal influences the robot's personality, do they have some will independent of their power source?)

I feel like it was at least implied that Gamma was being affected by the Flicky powering him, but to what end? Was Gamma just the bird's residual memories, or was Gamma a separate consciousness that was affected by the bird?

...Is Omega - a member of the same E-series - also powered by an animal?

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They both have pretty strange implications when you stop and think on them, yeah. Like, if Gamma was really 100% the bird I don't think his death would have been framed as a tragedy. 

I don't really have a strong preference but I've always thought fighting robot versions of the main characters would be cool. Wouldn't mind if they stole that idea.

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Even if it were in the games, do you trust them to utilize it correctly or effectively?

Like, what happened in Lost World. We're gonna turn Tails into a robot but actually we're not. In the same scene where it was happening, he just gets himself out of it. There's your conflict. 

That's not me saying "No, don't do it" of course. I'm open to anything if they can make it work.

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2 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Are the Badniks separate sentient consciousness of their own?

Yes.

2 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Are they affected by the animal powering them, and if so, how much? (i.e., even if the animal influences the robot's personality, do they have some will independent of their power source?)

Under normal circumstances, likely not much at all.

 

2 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I feel like it was at least implied that Gamma was being affected by the Flicky powering him, but to what end? Was Gamma just the bird's residual memories, or was Gamma a separate consciousness that was affected by the bird?

 

Gamma seemed to be going through a general existential crisis since getting entranced by Tikal, with the Flicky starting to affect him after seeing Lily up close.

So yes, he was an entity unto himself, but since the bird was a part of his systems, it was able to affect his judgment.

2 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

 

...Is Omega - a member of the same E-series - also powered by an animal?

No. Given the circumstances regarding his assigned mission and involvement since being uncovered, it'd be very unlikely.

Sonic Heroes seems to imply that he may use Chaos Emeralds as a possible backup power sources, while Archie had Eclipse rip out a power module that resembles a Chaos Drive.

1 hour ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

 

Like, what happened in Lost World. We're gonna turn Tails into a robot but actually we're not. In the same scene where it was happening, he just gets himself out of it. There's your conflict. 

I think the thing that gets me about that is not the Zeti wanting to do that, but HOW they thought they could do it?

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1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

I think the thing that gets me about that is not the Zeti wanting to do that, but HOW they thought they could do it?

What do you mean? We saw them clearly about to do it. They were confident that they could. Tails didn't get out of it because they couldn't do it. He grabbed a toothpick and re-wired the computer so that it wouldn't work. 

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11 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

What do you mean? We saw them clearly about to do it. They were confident that they could. Tails didn't get out of it because they couldn't do it. He grabbed a toothpick and re-wired the computer so that it wouldn't work. 

I mean the actual technical process.

Like, in theory, them wanting to make Sonic a robot makes perfect sense. They can manipulate electronics and Sonic is giving them a run for their money, so he'd be a great servant for whatever they intended to do afterwards.

What doesn't really add up is the fact that they shouldn't really know how to go through with it. Again, the Japanese version states that Eggman intended to do that to them at some point, so there is precedent. But how they, a bunch of weird ogres, intended to actually do it is kinda weird when think about it. Like, I get that Zavok is great learner, but Zik had him trying to complete a particular process that they didn't really see to our knowledge. 

If they had access to something akin to the roboticizer, namely the one that transformed Bunnie, this wouldn't be much of an issue--just strap him in, start the device's conveyor belt, and come back when it's goes beep. The machine does the job for you and has clear mechanisms. But as far as we see, they just cuff Tails down on a table and lower an apparatus with claws over him. Uh, how is that process gonna work? If I had to guess, quite messily.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I mean the actual technical process.

Like, in theory, them wanting to make Sonic a robot makes perfect sense. They can manipulate electronics and Sonic is giving them a run for their money, so he'd be a great servant for whatever they intended to do afterwards.

What doesn't really add up is the fact that they shouldn't really know how to go through with it. Again, the Japanese version states that Eggman intended to do that to them at some point, so there is precedent. But how they, a bunch of weird ogres, intended to actually do it is kinda weird when think about it. Like, I get that Zavok is great learner, but Zik had him trying to complete a particular process that they didn't really see to our knowledge. 

If they had access to something akin to the roboticizer, namely the one that transformed Bunnie, this wouldn't be much of an issue--just strap him in, start the device's conveyor belt, and come back when it's goes beep. The machine does the job for you and has clear mechanisms. But as far as we see, they just cuff Tails down on a table and lower an apparatus with claws over him. Uh, how is that process gonna work? If I had to guess, quite messily.

 

 

I imagined it akin to the Fleetway comics Cybernik process, where a Badnik Shell is attached, but the Shell is skin-tight, form-fitting, and nigh-impossible to detach without harm done 

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23 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

I imagined it akin to the Fleetway comics Cybernik process, where a Badnik Shell is attached, but the Shell is skin-tight, form-fitting, and nigh-impossible to detach without harm done 

Ah, okay. 

Come to think of it, wasn't there an issue where Tails was partially transformed? 

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3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Ah, okay. 

Come to think of it, wasn't there an issue where Tails was partially transformed? 

Second issue then Sonic was caught in the 4th.

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I think one of the problems that I've always had with when roboticization was introduced was the questions it raised between SatAM and Archie against the games (sorry I was a kid who asked a lot of questions and still do today). The most prominent question was why couldn't Sonic just bonk them on the head like in the games and free the animal inside. I mean I guess it's not a problem if you started with SatAM or the comics, but I started with the games myself so the differences between the mediums was jarring to me even as a little kid.

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