Star Wars fans have it as bad as Sonic fans

[MadmanRB]

Nah Star Wars fans are way worse in many respects, I actually enjoyed the Last Jedi.

Is it a perfect film? No as even I have legit criticisms with it.

And people call it Worst move ever?

Has anyone not seen Manos the Hands of fate?

The worst Star wars movie ever?

The Star wars holiday special anyone?

Those Ewok films?

Come on folks.

[BaronGrackle]

14 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

The worst Star wars movie ever?

The Star wars holiday special anyone?

Those Ewok films?

Come on folks.

I mean... let's consider. That's like someone saying Sonic 06 is the worst Sonic game ever, and someone else says, "What about the Tiger handhelds?"

Are those really games? And even if they are, isn't it saying something if you have to stop and actually think about which is worse?

[MadmanRB]

4 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

I mean... let's consider. That's like someone saying Sonic 06 is the worst Sonic game ever, and someone else says, "What about the Tiger handhelds?"

Are those really games? And even if they are, isn't it saying something if you have to stop and actually think about which is worse?

Well even if you dont count the Ewok films or the holiday special as star wars films i still think there is worse in the main series.

Episode II for me is my most.... well not hated but still least favorite of the star wars films.

I actually dont hate any of the star wars films, yes some are better than others but for me I like all of them.

Yes that means I like Episode I and the last Jedi.

And again I am fully aware of the issues of episode I and TLJ, I am not stupid.

And I would take TLJ any day over playing say Sonic 06 or Rise of lyric, I mean there is such thing as a fast forward after all

Plus I never pay premium for my movie tickets, my movie theater has a cheap tickets on Tuesday so even if i see a movie I wind up hating at least i only spent $8 as opposed to $14

As for a bad game.... well at least there i have a receipt

[Sonic Fan J]

Funny thing is I would still prefer 06 myself to TLJ. Primary reason being is that the characters entertain me in 06. I find Rey and Kylo Ren so utterly boring and the fun dynamic that existed between Finn and Poe in the Force Awakens was totally absent in TLJ. The only character I really enjoyed in TLJ was Rose and her entire character arc was pointless which felt like such a waste. So again, for 06, bad as it is, it's characters entertain me far more and I actually have gameplay to occupy me. So while I can't comment on the main point of the thread, though Star Wars global recognition and frequent hype still being a thing should speak for itself, I definitely would choose 06 over TLJ. Is it the worse movie ever, far from. It's competently made and well put together, but questionable story choices and boring characters make for a rather dreadful watch. It's honestly the first Star Wars movie I've seen where I kept checking my watch waiting for something to happen.

[MadmanRB]

Well its completely unfair to compare the two, one is a game and one is a movie.

And as how i feel about the characters in the new Trilogy I say they are not too bad, actually really like Rey's and Kylos arcs.

Are they as good as say Luke or Vader?

Well to be honest  I always found Luke to be a little too whiny in ANH and ESB

As for Vader, love him but I do like this inner conflict thing that Kylo has.

Even in star wars its a bit unfair to compare the characters, then you have the false claims of Rey being a Mary Sue.... because its cool these days to call someone a mary sue even though that phrase is over used (and fuck knows sega fans like using that term on Sally).

I still want to see where this all goes, say what you will about TLJ its certainly going to make the next movie even more interesting.

I like to see what Abrams does, I am actually very excited for episode IX

[Sonic Fan J]

Well the whole point of this thread to my knowledge kind of invites comparisons and you were the one who said you'd rather watch TLJ over playing 06 so I gave my two cents in response as I hold a very different stance.

As for how interesting the character arcs are, the actors don't sell them at all to me. Rey no matter the scene and situation always feels like she has the exact same expression, an when she does display a different one it feels so forced an fake it's ridiculous. To be fair though it could just be that I don't like Daisy Ridley's acting style and as a result the character falls flat to me, and same with Adam Driver as Kylo Ren. Conversely John Boyega as Finn was the best part of TFA to me yet he was every bit as boring in TLJ as Ridley and Driver were in both films to me so there could also have been some problems between me and Rian Johnson's directing style.

Even then, I find the character arcs in 06 ore entertaining as well because even when done as bad as it s it can be entertaining in an ironic way which TLJ by just being boring didn't provide me with. I was rather glad that I didn't pay to see TLJ as my sister paid for me and my brothers to see it as a Christmas gift. On the other hand, I spent my own money on 06 and still own gladly to this day.

I guess in a way, how bad any fandom has it is kind of down to individual preferences and the perception is based on how loud the detractors and vocal minority are.

[MadmanRB]

Actually I really like Adam Drivers acting, sure he is still rough but he is still better than Hayden Christensen

As for Daisy Ridley, well she is okay... i think she can be a good acrtress much like Natalie Portman before her.

John Boyega is no doubt the best out of the lot though, but he has had a career before Star wars

[Heckboy]

Episode II at least has this scene which is infinitely more memorable than literally anything in the sequel trilogy.

 

[Dr. Detective]

I see similarities, however, it's hard to take this at face value as a one to one comparison. It's true that Star Wars fans are in a cycle of getting hyped up for the product coming out, going to see it in droves, hating it, and then getting excited all over again... but the fact that it's such a wider spectrum of fans in comparison to something like Sonic, which had it's time to take over the gaming scene and absolutely has not recovered that spark of interest like Star Wars has keeps this from seeming like a comparison that I can take seriously.

The gap of time between the prequels and this new trilogy is pretty huge, for one. The fact that most don't lose the respect of the original films when a sequel or a sequence of sequels is shit is another thing to consider. Most expect sequels of movies to be terrible. Video game franchises are a bit different in that respect. You're usually expected to improve upon the last one and retain some form of consistency if you desire to be a franchise.  Sonic not being able to do that has seen him become a punchline in the gaming scene. No matter how angry people get at these new movies, Star Wars will never be a punchline because when people think of Star Wars, it will now and forever go back to that original trilogy. People can't look at Sonic and only think of him in the light of those classics. 

These are two very different mediums and the way people approach and react to them is different. 

As someone who only knows of the original Star Wars trilogy through osmosis and has seen all the movies of this new trilogy so far, I also feel like the quality between them isn't at all comparable. I understand the frustration some had with The Last Jedi but if Sonic 06 had that movie's story and characters it would have been an improved product. It still wouldn't have been good but it would have been better. Too much about Sonic 06's story just collapses in on itself when you give it a single iota of thought. While that's true for some of the elements in The Last Jedi, there's something tangible and salvageable there. After all these years, 06's story is a farce from start to finish with concepts that actively work against themselves and THE most boring iteration of the characters to date.

None of the characters in 06 capitalize on anything except for, ironically, Team Dark's team. Even then, they can't fully shine because they're tethered to something that's broken on the face of it. Plus, it all gets wiped away when the game retcons itself regardless. A revision wasn't saving that game's story. 

 

[Yoshizilla-Rhedosaurus]

Star Wars is in an infinitely worse position than Sonic is. It's not even close to compare Sonic's situation to SW under Disney. You could complain all you want about the recent Sonic games or that new live action movie, but I'll take them in a heartbeat over what Disney did to Star Wars.

I'll even buy an actual copy of that horrendous Tiger handheld Sonic compilation before I ever pay for a ticket to see Disney's sequel trash.

[Nestor]

On 5/7/2019 at 8:15 PM, Yoshizilla-Rhedosaurus said:

Star Wars is in an infinitely worse position than Sonic is. It's not even close to compare Sonic's situation to SW under Disney. You could complain all you want about the recent Sonic games or that new live action movie, but I'll take them in a heartbeat over what Disney did to Star Wars.

I'll even buy an actual copy of that horrendous Tiger handheld Sonic compilation before I ever pay for a ticket to see Disney's sequel trash.

I'd argue that's.... a teensy bit of an exaggeration there; even if you haven't been keen on the sequel trilogy, the films have both received critical success and performed extremely well financially. The Last Jedi was controversial, but mainly amongst the hardcore fanbase, and even then not universally by any stretch of the imagination; it was still a competently put together and acted movie even if you didn't like the direction they took, and was well received amongst critics and casual audience goers.

Compare and contrast with the train wreck that is the Sonic movie, or the disasters that were Sonic 06 and the Rise of Lyric, or the lacklustre reception of the last few games (sans Sonic Mania); at this point, having a love it or hate it controversial game would be a huge step up in Sonic Team's performance.

Even when Star Wars was churning out critically panned films (i.e. the Prequels), it was still an unstoppable juggernaut producing reams of additional (and more successful) content. Sonic.... not so much.

[Skull Leader]

At least with Sonic, there is always a chance to see the main characters like Sonic, Tails, Amy & Knuckles together.

The new trilogy on the other hand, killed Han Solo and  Luke Skywalker. Worse, both Carrie Fisher and Peter Mayhew passed away, which means I'll never get to see the original cast I grew with being together one last time. : (

[SupahBerry]

57 minutes ago, Skull Leader said:

At least with Sonic, there is always a chance to see the main characters like Sonic, Tails, Amy & Knuckles together.

The new trilogy on the other hand, killed Han Solo and  Luke Skywalker. Worse, both Carrie Fisher and Peter Mayhew passed away, which means I'll never get to see the original cast I grew with being together one last time. : (

 

Well, that's how it goes when one franchise is a live action series that requires human actors to play the characters.

 

The other is video game series that stars immortal, ageless cartoon characters. They can switch out as many actors as they want, and they'll stick around no matter how long it goes on for.

[Diogenes]

Animated or live action, I can't really fault a series for allowing time to pass, having characters grow older, and having them die (naturally or otherwise). It sucks to lose a character you like of course but it's just as valid a way to run a series, and it does have its advantages.

[BaronGrackle]

17 hours ago, Nestor said:

I'd argue that's.... a teensy bit of an exaggeration there; even if you haven't been keen on the sequel trilogy, the films have both received critical success and performed extremely well financially. The Last Jedi was controversial, but mainly amongst the hardcore fanbase, and even then not universally by any stretch of the imagination; it was still a competently put together and acted movie even if you didn't like the direction they took, and was well received amongst critics and casual audience goers.

Compare and contrast with the train wreck that is the Sonic movie, or the disasters that were Sonic 06 and the Rise of Lyric, or the lacklustre reception of the last few games (sans Sonic Mania); at this point, having a love it or hate it controversial game would be a huge step up in Sonic Team's performance.

Even when Star Wars was churning out critically panned films (i.e. the Prequels), it was still an unstoppable juggernaut producing reams of additional (and more successful) content. Sonic.... not so much.

To me, the new trilogy films have felt a lot like Sonic 4.

The Force Awakens shot out a product comparable to Sonic 4: Episode 1 in its goal (try to be like the original series, but not really). Fan criticism was there, but in quiet internet corners. Meanwhile the box office was huge, and reviewers praised it. Many of us were shocked to see the overwhelming positive reception from critical reviews. Did these reviewers even know the product?

Then The Last Jedi came out. Much like Sonic 4: Episode 2, it tried to respond to the internet complaints with drastic style changes (e.g. Darth Millenial threw his mask away and tried not to lose as many fights). Otherwise it was a similar product, because the positive reviews had given them optimism. But this time, the critics kind of woke up? And the critical response was more like, "Hey guys, I know we gave great reviews for the first episode, and this one is kinda similar, and I know we're supposed to be excited because anything Star Wars / 2D Sonic is supposed to be golden... but this time doesn't it kind of feel a little like garbage?"

With Sonic 4, it was cancelled. They reversed directions and eventually gave us Mania. Happily Ever After.

With Star Wars, they clenched their teeth and ventured on. They have to. Disney can't just throw away this version of the universe as easily as SEGA could throw away the universe of Sonic 4. So they continued. The Han Solo movie came out to box office failure, the first in Star Wars history. Soon the end of the new trilogy will reach us. How will critics treat it now, now that the honeymoon phase is long over?

I find myself asking. Will the new Star Wars movie make more money than the Sonic movie? If not, then Star Wars is already broken.

Will it make more money than Detective Pikachu? If not, then it has a little more time to wither away before dying, but it'll be on the way out.

[MadmanRB]

Nah i think IX will be fine in terms of box office.

Certainly will do better than Solo (and honestly Disney should have delayed that movie as the hate bomb was too strong)

It will at least do well with the casual fans, I know i will see it.

I dont see the sonic movie being any remote success even if they fix that CGI model

[knuckles20]

Honestly I’m feel that both have been obnoxious with their attempts to win over the nostalgia crowds. Just swap Green Hill Zone and 2D with Death Stars and First Order(Empire 2.0) and the problems of both aren’t that wildly different.

And I know someone’s gonna say, “well nostalgia sells”, but that mentality can only go so far. Why should I care about the next Star Wars film if it can never grow beyond the suffering, underpowered, underdog rebels who’s victories can be easily undone who always have to go against some variation of the Empire who can just show up with another Mega weapon and superior military strength as if their loss never happened. Why should I care about the next “3D” game if it’s 75% 2D, the main campaign can be beaten in less than 6 hours and everyone who isn’t the main character is still portrayed as helpless infants who can’t do anything for themselves.

If they just wanna feed the same crap over and over then why even make new material to begin with. Just re-release IV, V, VI and the 1991 game every few years since it’s not any different from what Star Wars and Sonic is doing now.

[MadmanRB]

1 hour ago, knuckles20 said:

Honestly I’m feel that both have been obnoxious with their attempts to win over the nostalgia crowds. Just swap Green Hill Zone and 2D with Death Stars and First Order(Empire 2.0) and the problems of both aren’t that wildly different.

And I know someone’s gonna say, “we’ll nostalgia sells”, but that mentality can only go so far. Why should I care about the next Star Wars film if it can never grow beyond the suffering, underpowered, underdog rebels who’s victories can be easily undone who always have to go against some variation of the Empire who can just show up with another Mega weapon and superior military strength as if their loss never happened. Why should I care about the next “3D” game if it’s 75% 2D, the main campaign can be beaten in less than 6 hours and everyone who isn’t the main character is still portrayed as helpless infants who can’t do anything for themselves.

If they just wanna feed the same crap over and over then why even make new material to begin with. Just re-release IV, V, VI and the 1991 game every few years since it’s not any different from what Star Wars and Sonic is doing now.

Yes but nostalgia does have its advantages.

Both The force Awakens and Mania had something, plus at least Mania has great game play.

If you want a good example of Nostalgia done right its mania, sure mania doesnt offer too much new but it reminds us how great the classics really were

And i would argue the same for the force awakens.

But thats just my humble opinion as i liked the force awakens.

Sure its flawed but I still liked it.

[knuckles20]

1 hour ago, MadmanRB said:

Yes but nostalgia does have its advantages.

Both The force Awakens and Mania had something, plus at least Mania has great game play.

If you want a good example of Nostalgia done right its mania, sure mania doesnt offer too much new but it reminds us how great the classics really were

And i would argue the same for the force awakens.

But thats just my humble opinion as i liked the force awakens.

Sure its flawed but I still liked it.

Yeah the same thing can be said about Pokemon Let’s go Pikachu and Eevee but that doesn’t mean I want every pokemon game in Kanto or that I only want to see the original 151 Pokémon despite the my first game was version blue. 

 

I just feel nostalgia is used as a crutch where they think all they have to do is throw in “element X” and all is good. With Sonic they constantly keep reminding players of the classic era with how they shove Green Hill Zone in every game. Mania doesn’t do much for me since I was never impressed with it since it was another staple of classic pandering that I’ve grown tired of.And as much as I love the Adventure era I would have the same issue if the games kept calling back to City Escape non stop.

My issue with both Sonic and Star Wars is that they need something truly new to the table can’t be so dependent on reminding me of the good ol days because if people just want a reminder of what they like before, there’s nothing stopping them from playing the genesis titles or watch the original trilogy on an infinite loop. 

[Skull Leader]

I don't think Sonic needs to be something radically new to succeed. It just needs to get right all the things that made it great in the first place. There is a good reason why Sonic 4 failed while Mania succeeded. Both projects aimed to achieve the same thing, but one only had a shallow and superficial understanding while the other went the extra mile.

A change that is made without concern of how will it affect everything else is something that should not be done. Take for example The Last Jedi: Ryan Johnson went in with the intention of shaking things up by subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations. He didn't care about telling a story, much less how it would affect the next movie given how they had to undo his mess by bringing back JJ as director as well as Palpatine (which should had been Darth Jar JR...smh for yet another wasted opportunity) since the story was left without it's main big bad. Same thing happens when you mess with the core formula of something like, say, the 2-D games. For example Sonic Advance 2, which threw platforming out the window to focus solely on speed speed speed... You get something that on the surface looks like the old games, but once you play it for yourself, realize it's a different beast.

[MadmanRB]

57 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

Yeah the same thing can be said about Pokemon Let’s go Pikachu and Eevee but that doesn’t mean I want every pokemon game in Kanto or that I only want to see the original 151 Pokémon despite the my first game was version blue. 

 

I just feel nostalgia is used as a crutch where they think all they have to do is throw in “element X” and all is good. With Sonic they constantly keep reminding players of the classic era with how they shove Green Hill Zone in every game. And as much as I like the Adventure era I would have the same issue if the games kept calling back to City Escape non stop.

My issue with both Sonic and Star Wars is that they need something truly new to the table can’t be so dependent on reminding me of the good ol days because if people just want a reminder of what they like before, there’s nothing stopping them from playing the genesis titles or watch the original trilogy on an infinite loop. 

Yeah but this is where you have the argument that if something is too new people dont like it or want it.

Subversion is such a double edged sword, both Star Wars and Sonic both had subversions and the end result wasnt well liked.

In the end you cant please everyone but personally I say revisiting Sonics roots is a good thing for the Sonic franchise and sometimes going back to basics is a good thing.

Mania and the Force awakens both used Nostalgia to their great advantage

I actually Say Sonics Last Jedi is Forces with Sonic 06 being its Episode 1..... but thats my opinion again (and a observation as I have seen many defend both Last jedi and Sonic Forces.... Dont see too many people defending Episode 1 or Sonic 06)

[knuckles20]

1 hour ago, MadmanRB said:

Yeah but this is where you have the argument that if something is too new people dont like it or want it.

Subversion is such a double edged sword, both Star Wars and Sonic both had subversions and the end result wasnt well liked.

In the end you cant please everyone but personally I say revisiting Sonics roots is a good thing for the Sonic franchise and sometimes going back to basics is a good thing.

Mania and the Force awakens both used Nostalgia to their great advantage

I actually Say Sonics Last Jedi is Forces with Sonic 06 being its Episode 1..... but thats my opinion again (and a observation as I have seen many defend both Last jedi and Sonic Forces.... Dont see too many people defending Episode 1 or Sonic 06)

They have been revisiting Sonic’s roots for most of the games since Colors. It got old when they went to his roots for Lost World.

Doesn’t matter how well they use their nostalgia it still feels like a cheap tactic “oh wow it’s Green Hill Zone again! It’s go great seeing it for the 40th time in a row”.

”Ah man I’m so happy they good guys destroyed another Death Star. What is this the 5th time around.” If the only way for these franchise to be good is to constantly rely on vintange iconography then there’s nothing to look for to for the future. It’s pretty much like the New Super Mario Bros games. You play one there’s really no point to pick up the other 5 games.

[MadmanRB]

13 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

They have been revisiting Sonic’s roots for most of the games since Colors. It got old when they went to his roots for Lost World.

Doesn’t matter how well they use their nostalgia it still feels like a cheap tactic “oh wow it’s Green Hill Zone again! It’s go great seeing it for the 40th time in a row”.

”Ah man I’m so happy they good guys destroyed another Death Star. What is this the 5th time around.” If the only way for these franchise to be good is to constantly rely on vintange iconography then there’s nothing to look for to for the future. It’s pretty much like the New Super Mario Bros games. You play one there’s really no point to pick up the other 5 games.

Well its not like any of Sonics new ideas were all that great.

Shitty motion controls

Turning sonic into a goddamned werewolf

New character for the sake of a new character

The fucking Wisps....

Point is there is a reason why Mania is popular and Forces is not.

One seems like a love letter to the classic games by people who seem to know Sonic better than the Sonic creators themselves and the other... a lazily made game where the only thing to do is race through levels with no challenge or any real innovation.

Manias levels while mostly new versions of old levels still seem fresh and brand new, even green hill.

Heck i argue thats the case of Sonic generations, again there is nothing really new here but what has been done is still fun and it still feels fresh.

For me the game that is the worst at nostalgia pandering its Forces, people accuse mania of being lazy but no its a project i can feel the love in.

Forces certainly feels more something mass produced and it really has no flavor to offer.

[knuckles20]

20 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Well its not like any of Sonics new ideas were all that great.

Shitty motion controls

Turning sonic into a goddamned werewolf

New character for the sake of a new character

The fucking Wisps....

Point is there is a reason why Mania is popular and Forces is not.

One seems like a love letter to the classic games by people who seem to know Sonic better than the Sonic creators themselves and the other... a lazily made game where the only thing to do is race through levels with no challenge or any real innovation.

Manias levels while mostly new versions of old levels still seem fresh and brand new, even green hill.

Heck i argue thats the case of Sonic generations, again there is nothing really new here but what has been done is still fun and it still feels fresh.

For me the game that is the worst at nostalgia pandering its Forces, people accuse mania of being lazy but no its a project i can feel the love in.

Forces certainly feels more something mass produced and it really has no flavor to offer.

So the only other option is for shove more 2D sections in the 3D games have constant call backs to the genesis days never do anything new.If people really want a nostalgia trip, what’s stopping them from playing Sonic CD nonstop.

I’m not even trying to defend Forces. I got turned off the moment Classic Sonic showed up in the first trailer. To me it doesn’t matter how well executed the nostalgia pandering is. It doesn’t change that having constantly calling back to Sonic’s roots for almost a decade and I’m bored of it.

[MadmanRB]

9 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

So the only other option is for shove more 2D sections in the 3D games and constant call backs to the genesis days. If people really want a nostalgia trip, what’s stopping them from playing Sonic CD nonstop.

I’m not even trying to defend Forces. I got turned off the moment Classic Sonic showed up in the first trailer. To me it doesn’t matter how well executed the nostalgia pandering is. It doesn’t change that having constantly calling back to Sonic’s roots for almost a decade and I’m bored of it.

No but i do ask for more challenge and also a bit more variety.

And yes you can mix 2D and 3D levels and still make it feel fresh and new.

There is of course still room for 2D Sonic but maybe classic sonic should stay in the hands of Headcannon and Chris Whitehead and maybe more Mania games for us who appreciate the classics.

As for modern gameplay, there needs to be more balance, enough of the boost bullshit and lazy level design.

Or if the boost formula is kept make it more like a reward than a handout.

I do want more multi character levels like the Adventure games but I know this does come to having multyiple gameplay styles again....

which i am kind of wanting anyhow, the boost formula has played out and we need more character trees....

Flight levels for Tails would be nice, perhaps the return of the treasure hunting levels for knuckles but this time with the better controls of SA2 mixed with the original radar of SA1.

Again i know this wont please everyone, people have grown used to the boost formula but at the same time its kind of gotten playerd out.

Perhaps a new formula is needed but Boom tried that and it didnt work out too well...