Star Wars fans have it as bad as Sonic fans

[QuantumEdge]

46 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Okay maybe its time to play SJW bingo a bit and see how it goes here is your free space for those playing at home:

maybe we would not have this argument if Rey had a penis..... I mean I gave a good argument on maybe why Rey is so skilled but hey whatever

Sally Acorn has the same issue if you made her a male black hedgehog who rode on a bike and carried a firearm she would be the most popular character in the sonic franchise.

 

I guess thats another thing the Sonic and star wars fans have in common, the term mary sue thrown about because its Tuesday and of course because both are female characters.

This has nothing to do with gender and I think you know that.  Even if Rey was a dude that would still make her/he a bad character.  This ridiculous, passive-aggressive scapegoat game of yours both fails in making a sound argument and simply pettily stoops to imply we're sexist because we dislike (what is in our view) bad writing.

[Heckboy]

22 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Well you are most welcome for the free space on SJW bingo, shall I finish your card?

Luckily SJW bingo is so easy to play, heck even i have fun at it

And no not a SJW myself actually, I just like playing SJW bingo now and then.

I play to lose, best way to play really.

Look. I don't care what your headcanon explanation for Rey's skills is. She does not struggle, she does not really grow in any significant way. She is not interesting or likable. It's not because she's female. It's because she has nothing to her. 

Notice how you immediately leap to the conclusion that I'm some sort of anti-"SJW" bigot because I dislike a character in a billion dollar franchise for children and nerds. You have no real argument so you instead regurgitate some bullshit you probably read from some blue checkmark journalist in twitter who was paid off by Disney to shill the idea that the consumption of their corporate shlock is some sort of bold statement. People have been so conditioned to defend their favorite corporate brands that they will label anyone, ANYONE, who criticizes it as a bigot. I could write a fucking essay-length post on why TLJ is a failure of a film and Rey is a poorly written hero, but since you and people like you are either unwilling or unable to put forward anything resembling a nuanced counterargument, you just bypass all of that and fall back in the tired "uhhh guess you're a sexist lol" scapegoat. Give me a fucking break.

[MadmanRB]

6 minutes ago, QuantumEdge said:

This has nothing to do with gender and I think you know that.  Even if Rey was a dude that would still make her/he a bad character.  This ridiculous, passive-aggressive scapegoat game of yours both fails in making a sound argument and simply pettily stoops to imply we're sexist because we dislike (what is in our view) bad writing.

Now thats a response i like, but still you got a free SJW bingo chip on the house if you want it.

I am a good sport about it

Quote

 

Look. I don't care what your headcanon explanation for Rey's skills is. She does not struggle, she does not really grow in any significant way. She is not interesting or likable. It's not because she's female. It's because she has nothing to her. 

Notice how you immediately leap to the conclusion that I'm some sort of anti-"SJW" bigot because I dislike a character in a billion dollar franchise for children and nerds. You have no real argument so you instead regurgitate some bullshit you probably read from some blue checkmark journalist in twitter who was paid off by Disney to shill the idea that the consumption of their corporate shlock is some sort of bold statement. People have been so conditioned to defend their favorite corporate brands that they will label anyone, ANYONE, who criticizes it as a bigot. I could write a fucking essay-length post on why TLJ is a failure of a film and Rey is a poorly written hero, but since you and people like you are either unwilling or unable to put forward anything resembling a nuanced counterargument, you just bypass all of that and fall back in the tired "uhhh guess you're a sexist lol" scapegoat.

 

Again a well metered response.

Nice!

[QuantumEdge]

4 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Now thats a response i like, but still you got a free SJW bingo chip on the house if you want it.

I am a good sport about it

Just like how I'm a good sport about reporting this type of nonsense.

[Heckboy]

5 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Now thats a response i like, but still you got a free SJW bingo chip on the house if you want it.

I am a good sport about it

Again a well metered response.

Nice!

Ok yeah so you're basically just baiting now. I'm out.

[MadmanRB]

1 minute ago, QuantumEdge said:

Just like how I'm a good sport about reporting this type of nonsense.

That is fair and in your right.

I wont argue about it

Quote

Ok yeah so you're basically just baiting now. I'm out.

Baiting? No

More like a bluff, I play poker not chess

[Zaysho]

2 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

Well you are most welcome for the free space on SJW bingo, shall I finish your card?

Luckily SJW bingo is so easy to play, heck even i have fun at it

And no not a SJW myself actually, I just like playing SJW bingo now and then.

I play to lose, best way to play really.

Oh you've played to lose, all right.

You have a pretty terrible history of this kind of behavior on this site, and I've about had it with your trolling. Bye.

[Skull Leader]

6 hours ago, Azzy said:

Mannequin Skywalker wasn't using Jedi Mind tricks 20 minutes after learning the Force was a thing, lost his arm in his first sabre fight (despite years of training with actual Jedi no less), at least had a partial explanation for being a decent pilot and was treated with general distrust and suspicion from the cast outside of Space McGregor and Portman.

Rey uses Mind Tricks 20 minutes after learning the Force was a thing, has already owned Kylo Ren in her first fight (oh the suspense for the new film), is an amazing pilot despite never having flown before, knows more about a ship and how to fix it than those who've used it for years, is instantly a crack shot with pistol, everyone that meets her instantly likes her, those that don't she just beats up and then leaves and while most struggle lifting rocks she lifts a several ton cave entrance 1st try. The term Mary Sue is overused and vaguely/widely defined, Rey however is a textbook Sue and the biggest reason there's so much furious arguing over it is through the majority of defenders having made it a gender issue over abysmal writing. TLJ could have done a lot to make her character more grounded but it didn't and saying Star Wars has always had issues doesn't absolve the new characters of theirs.

I think that for a character to be well received, it needs to first captivate the audience, something that Rey fails to do because writers are more focused on showing how oh so awesome and strong she is by handling everything to her on a silver plate than in making her an interesting character who has to grow up to overcome fears, maybe an inner conflict and most importantly, EARN that victory. 

This is a very simple principle that applies to any character regardless of gender, and really struggle to understand how anyone could possibly like such a character since she is basically plowing through the story with nothing to pose as an obstacle to overcome, and that is something that offers nothing to engage with the character's story nor care for what happens next because the outcome is so painfully obvious.

And while I can understand and agree with people who think that there is nothing wrong with the protagonist being female, I honestly don't think this is the best way to represent females in movies or any other form of entertainment. If anything, it feels patronizing if not insulting, as if females have to be handled only in a very particular way that paints only a positive, but ultimately unrelatable and uninteresting character out of fear to offending someone. Funny how this is not the case with males, who they don't seem to have a problem with experiencing both the ups and especially the downs of their respective journeys.

But hey, it's the current year and in a world full of very polarized views, even the reasonable middle ground will be seen as problematic by either extreme.

And just to make a Sonic comparisson with Rey, I will mention the buddy character from Sonic Forces, who is also liked by everyone and achieves so much more than any of the other characters that had been with Sonic on his fight against Eggman. 

Edit: thinking about it, I feel Flynn would had made for a better protagonist. Too bad he now is a character with not much of a purpose beyond the generic "gotta bring down the FO", since the idea of him doing something to free the Stormtroopers, who are basically child soldiers and victims who were robbed their lives and family, would had been a more engaging tale that puts him in a hard position of fighting his former comrades. Sadly Star Wars is only about Good vs Evil, and while Rogue One showed the rebels doing terrible things, god forbid they humanize the bad guys since this is no Gundam.

[BaronGrackle]

I'm actually finding the new Sonic movie refreshing. Unlike Star Wars or Ghostbusters reboot, I can criticize things about the Sonic movie trailer, AND NOBODY CALLS ME SEXIST OR RACIST. It's kind of spectacular.

So thank you again, Sonic. Thank you for letting me hate parts of you without showing inadvertent cultural undertones.

EDIT: @Skull Leader, sorry sir, but humanizing the bad guys was something that the Old EU would do. That canon is dead now 

[Your Vest Friend]

I wanted to make a point about how every fandom ends up at a similar point of conflict and derision despite Sonic continually being cited as a significant example but jesus fucking christ what happened here. 

[Skull Leader]

4 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

I'm actually finding the new Sonic movie refreshing. Unlike Star Wars or Ghostbusters reboot, I can criticize things about the Sonic movie trailer, AND NOBODY CALLS ME SEXIST OR RACIST. It's kind of spectacular.

So thank you again, Sonic. Thank you for letting me hate parts of you without showing inadvertent cultural undertones.

EDIT: @Skull Leader, sorry sir, but humanizing the bad guys was something that the Old EU would do. That canon is dead now 

We criticize because we care, and should be able to do so freely without fear from being lynched by people whose only "argument" is to call one buzz words. I don't think we do so because we want for the franchises we support to fail nor get any pleasure from it. 

In the case of Sonic, while it has up and downs, the problems have always been things like the execution of ideas or tonal shifts where one moment we have Sonic in a heartlighted setting and the next trying to be dark and "deep". You don't see controversies related to identity/diversity because the franchise is very neutral in that regard, like a lot of franchises in Japan since they don't have the need nor desire to pander to any group of people (never change Nippon). Plus the characters are just a bunch of technicolor woodland critters to whom things like sexuality, nationality or ethnicity don't really apply to.

Star Wars on the other hand is a product of Hollywood, where they embrace progressive ideas but execute them in a way that just feels forced. They fail to understand that while there are different groups of people because humanity itself is very diverse, they need to show these characters in a way that for the audience to see in them a person... Fictional yes, but credible, which at least IMO is the most important aspect by far over other things like race/gender. Instead, them fall for the trap of showing only stereotypes of what they think to understand that rub one off the wrong way, like the case of Rey, since instead of a strong, compelling character who happens to be a female, we got a text-book Mary Sue like Azzy explained and gave examples of why.

Things really went crazy when certain groups on both sides of the current controversies decided to make a battlefield out of several entertainment media and franchises, who just like the Sith, deal in absolutes. Even reasonable criticism is meet with a lynch mob mentality and risk being called names by either of them.

I guess we were lucky to have enjoyed the original films in a time when people were not so sensitive nor stingy. Same with Sonic during that short era when it really gave Mario a serious competition. No matter what happens next, those memories can never be taken away. Beyond that, the only thing left is hope for the best. At least for Sonic the was Mania, which shows that good things can happen again if a property is handled with care and respect instead of a cash cow. The right people with the right focus can always achieve great things.

 

 

[Plasme]

Rey does grow in at least the Last Jedi though. She has to face her fears about her unimportant ancestry throughout the film.

Also, it's made pretty clear that she only beat Kylo in a duel because A) he was shot in the shoulder with a blaster and Kylo himself isn't a particularly incredible Sith himself. 

I also find the Mary Sue comments pretty dumb. Luke may have experienxe in flying, but he can dogfight trained military pilots and destroy the death star on his own, and no one cares about that.

I also find the extent of his Jedi training overblown, he wasn't even on Dagobah that long and we never saw him training with a lightsabre. Yoda only trained him in the force. It doesn't really make sense that Luke can ever beat Vader in a duel, but he goes on to do it for the sake of a good film.

I find the term Mary Sue pretty misogynistic actually, at least in its usage. Women are held to a much higher expectation to have flaws and reasonings behind their power, while men are given a freer leash.

[QuantumEdge]

1 minute ago, Plasme said:

Rey does grow in at least the Last Jedi though. She has to face her fears about her unimportant ancestry throughout the film.

Also, it's made pretty clear that she only beat Kylo in a duel because A) he was shot in the shoulder with a blaster and Kylo himself isn't a particularly incredible Sith himself. 

I also find the Mary Sue comments pretty dumb. Luke may have experienxe in flying, but he can dogfight trained military pilots and destroy the death star on his own, and no one cares about that.

I also find the extent of his Jedi training overblown, he wasn't even on Dagobah that long and we never saw him training with a lightsabre. Yoda only trained him in the force. It doesn't really make sense that Luke can ever beat Vader in a duel, but he goes on to do it for the sake of a good film.

I find the term Mary Sue pretty misogynistic actually, at least in its usage. Women are held to a much higher expectation to have flaws and reasonings behind their power, while men are given a freer leash.

Then I guess you haven't heard the term Gary-Stu then.  I mean, sure, to this day, a lot of people have higher expectations of women, that I cannot deny whatsoever.  However, as I have said, even if Rey was a dude, I'd still have the same issues about how half-baked her character is.  That parental fear stuff you mentioned is barely touched upon until the mirror scene, Kylo (who is also a pretty crap character by the way) was still trained by Luke, so he'd still have some advantage (though the film does not do so, but whatever, that part's not my main gripe) in spite of his injury and Luke's pilot skills are at least touched upon as he's supposed to be a talented bush pilot.  With Rey she can fly the Falcon like a skilled madwoman just because.  

While the original trilogy isn't without its own problems, the sequel trilogy just does not know how to naturally get people from point A to point B.

[Azzy]

2 hours ago, Plasme said:

Rey does grow in at least the Last Jedi though. She has to face her fears about her unimportant ancestry throughout the film.

You mean her 1 flaw that she spends about 150 frames angsting over it and then gets over it just like that? Such an important character flaw.

2 hours ago, Plasme said:

Also, it's made pretty clear that she only beat Kylo in a duel because A) he was shot in the shoulder with a blaster and Kylo himself isn't a particularly incredible Sith himself. 

The guy who has been trained by Luke and Snoke, destroys Finn in combat without batting an eye but struggles vs someone who has never even wielded a lightsaber before? Amazing writing. I'm sure TLJ will explain everything aptly.

2 hours ago, Plasme said:

Luke may have experienxe in flying, but he can dogfight trained military pilots and destroy the death star on his own, and no one cares about that.

He doesn't. He attacks the Deathstar as part of an entire squadron and is nearly killed himself until Han Solo completes his character quest of not just fighting for himself.

2 hours ago, Plasme said:

I also find the extent of his Jedi training overblown, he wasn't even on Dagobah that long and we never saw him training with a lightsabre. Yoda only trained him in the force. It doesn't really make sense that Luke can ever beat Vader in a duel, but he goes on to do it for the sake of a good film.

It's never really defined how long Luke trains with Yoda.

2 hours ago, Plasme said:

I find the term Mary Sue pretty misogynistic actually

Oh

fuck

off

2 hours ago, Plasme said:

I also find the Mary Sue comments pretty dumb.

Unrelated: Have I ever told you about my Sonic Fan Character? She's called Razorkill the Echidna, she's Yellow. She's an orphan who lived in a desert all her life until she's called to action by one of Eggmans robots who respects women and becomes instant friends with her. Razorkill discovers she's amazing at everything she does and all of Sonics friends like her. She meets Shadow for the first time and beats him up using Chaos Control. Later she beats up Sonic because he doesn't tell her how to use Chaos Emeralds. Later Razorkill lets Shadow capture her and he takes her to Eggman, Eggman tells mai husbando to kill her but Shadow kills him instead. Shadow tells her she's not an orphan and her parents abondoned her, Eggmans base explodes and she leaves. Now she leads Sonic and Friends against Shadow.

Criticise me and you are misogynistic and know nothing about fanfiction.

[Plasme]

1 minute ago, Azzy said:

Unrelated: Have I ever told you about my Sonic Fan Character? She's called Razorkill the Echidna, she's Yellow. She's an orphan who lived in a desert all her life until she's called to action by one of Eggmans robots who respects women and becomes instant friends with her. Razorkill discovers she's amazing at everything she does and all of Sonics friends like her. She meets Shadow for the first time and beats him up using Chaos Control. Later she beats up Sonic because he doesn't tell her how to use Chaos Emeralds. Later Razorkill lets Shadow capture her and he takes her to Eggman, Eggman tells mai husbando to kill her but Shadow kills him instead. Shadow tells her she's not an orphan and her parents abondoned her, Eggmans base explodes and she leaves. Now she leads Sonic and Friends against Shadow.

Criticise me and you are misogynistic and know nothing about fanfiction.

The idea that Rey or any female character in the new Star Wars films is even remotely comparable to that is honestly laughable.

2 hours ago, QuantumEdge said:

Kylo (who is also a pretty crap character by the way) was still trained by Luke, so he'd still have some advantage (though the film does not do so, but whatever, that part's not my main gripe) in spite of his injury and Luke's pilot skills are at least touched upon as he's supposed to be a talented bush pilot.  With Rey she can fly the Falcon like a skilled madwoman just because.  

Kylo's a great character, he's someone in a great position of power who's anxious about his inadequacies and covers up his insecurities with aggression. Yet he's also a visionary and wants to reform the First Order. He's very well rounded and three dimensional. If you don't like him, fair enough, but he's far better characterised than the majority of characters in Star Wars.

Luke's experienced in piloting, but he manages to dogfight with trained military pilots, it's absurd. Go get someone from an American ranch who flies planes to take on the US Airforce, bet they wouldn't perform as well as Luke. They certainly wouldn't outfly everyone and go through the entire trench run to blow up the death star.

Also, I forgot to mention this, but the idea that Rey destroys Kylo is a fan invention. If you actually watch the scene, Kylo is easily beating Rey, even with his injury (which the film goes out of its way to emphasise, with him aching and touching his shoulder). It's only after she taps into the force that she beats him. It's pretty over the top, but it's totally in tune with Star Wars and Rey is certainly not any more powerful than Luke. Kylo's not as powerful as Vader and he's injured in the shoulder he uses his lightsaber. Imagine using a sword with a fucked up shoulder.

[Soniman]

Star Wars certainly has the worse Fandom by a country mile but the products in the same quality as Sonic? Not even close 

[QuantumEdge]

31 minutes ago, Plasme said:

The idea that Rey or any female character in the new Star Wars films is even remotely comparable to that is honestly laughable.

Kylo's a great character, he's someone in a great position of power who's anxious about his inadequacies and covers up his insecurities with aggression. Yet he's also a visionary and wants to reform the First Order. He's very well rounded and three dimensional. If you don't like him, fair enough, but he's far better characterised than the majority of characters in Star Wars.

Luke's experienced in piloting, but he manages to dogfight with trained military pilots, it's absurd. Go get someone from an American ranch who flies planes to take on the US Airforce, bet they wouldn't perform as well as Luke. They certainly wouldn't outfly everyone and go through the entire trench run to blow up the death star.

Also, I forgot to mention this, but the idea that Rey destroys Kylo is a fan invention. If you actually watch the scene, Kylo is easily beating Rey, even with his injury (which the film goes out of its way to emphasise, with him aching and touching his shoulder). It's only after she taps into the force that she beats him. It's pretty over the top, but it's totally in tune with Star Wars and Rey is certainly not any more powerful than Luke. Kylo's not as powerful as Vader and he's injured in the shoulder he uses his lightsaber. Imagine using a sword with a fucked up shoulder.

In theory, he's an interesting character, but in practice, no.  He's an overgrown manchild, whose whole personality would, potentially, work if he were a teenager.  Maybe he does have all that going on, but the truth is he still behaves like an over the top villain straight out of an 80s toy commercial cartoon far too many times for me to ever take him seriously.

Again, the duel is the least of my issues (except for the lame looking swordplay on both sides) and, quite frankly, comparing real life with Star Wars is flimsy at best.  Sure, a cropdusting farmboy would be in all sorts of trouble when thrown into a fighter jet, but the fact is that sort of technological disparity doesn't seem to exist in Star Wars.  Then there's the fact that if stormtroopers can't hit the broadside of a barn, then it's safe to say Tie pilots are hardly going to any better.

And that's it, I'm done debating.  There's no way I can ever see Kylo, Rey, or most of the sequel trilogy to be any real good and chances are I can never convince you of that.  Going any further is just using up time I'd want to spend elsewhere.

[Plasme]

14 minutes ago, QuantumEdge said:

In theory, he's an interesting character, but in practice, no.  He's an overgrown manchild, whose whole personality would, potentially, work if he were a teenager.  Maybe he does have all that going on, but the truth is he still behaves like an over the top villain straight out of an 80s toy commercial cartoon far too many times for me to ever take him seriously.

Again, the duel is the least of my issues (except for the lame looking swordplay on both sides) and, quite frankly, comparing real life with Star Wars is flimsy at best.  Sure, a cropdusting farmboy would be in all sorts of trouble when thrown into a fighter jet, but the fact is that sort of technological disparity doesn't seem to exist in Star Wars.  Then there's the fact that if stormtroopers can't hit the broadside of a barn, then it's safe to say Tie pilots are hardly going to any better.

And that's it, I'm done debating.  There's no way I can ever see Kylo, Rey, or most of the sequel trilogy to be any real good and chances are I can never convince you of that.  Going any further is just using up time I'd want to spend elsewhere.

I'd urge you to watch the films again with an open mind and try to distance yourself from the Star Wars fandom, because you'll see the movies in a new light. Honestly I used to feel the same way as you, but after listening to some fan and critic defences of the films, I realised they are far better than given credit, especially the Last Jedi, which is a very intelligent film.

I'm not even a huge fan of either film, I certainly have a lot of criticisms of Force Awakens, but a lot of the criticisms it receives are based on racism (Finn being black and some kind of political statement) and misogyny (Rey being a Mary Sue and Rose being a diversity quota). I have problems with its plot and pacing, which were initially touched upon on its release but have fallen out of fashion because of the horrible political rhetoric in the Star Wars fandom.

Your response here is pretty flimsy and is representative of someone who is so entrenched in fan culture that you you don't want to admit defeat on this particular point. if we want logic in Star Wars in regards to Rey's Jedi training than it also logically follows that Luke wouldn't beat military pilots because experience in flying domestically on his home planet would not be enough. The fact Stormtroopers are awful shots just further reveals how little logic the Star Wars films ever had, because Luke can outshoot them (trained soldiers) in action scenes. Does that also make Luke a Mary Sue?

So yes, Rey is overpowered and unrealistic, but she's no moreso than Luke. The only reason she's held to a higher standard is because she's a woman.

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, Azzy said:

Unrelated: Have I ever told you about my Sonic Fan Character? She's called Razorkill the Echidna, she's Yellow. She's an orphan who lived in a desert all her life until she's called to action by one of Eggmans robots who respects women and becomes instant friends with her. Razorkill discovers she's amazing at everything she does and all of Sonics friends like her. She meets Shadow for the first time and beats him up using Chaos Control. Later she beats up Sonic because he doesn't tell her how to use Chaos Emeralds. Later Razorkill lets Shadow capture her and he takes her to Eggman, Eggman tells mai husbando to kill her but Shadow kills him instead. Shadow tells her she's not an orphan and her parents abondoned her, Eggmans base explodes and she leaves. Now she leads Sonic and Friends against Shadow.

This feels like a really dishonest reframing of the movies relying more on provoking an emotional reaction than anything.

[Tarnish]

4 hours ago, Plasme said:

Luke may have experienxe in flying, but he can dogfight trained military pilots and destroy the death star on his own, and no one cares about that.

Yes, he succeeded in that, but like it was pointed out, he was part of a squad, and he would have been toast if not for a last second save from Han.

Plus, lets not forget that his Hoth battle went nowhere as glamorous. His partner was shot down, then his ship as well.

And his Dagobah landing wasn't exactly perfect either. So he's not portraid as a master pilot being able to overcome every situation by any strech of the imagination.

[Plasme]

40 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

Yes, he succeeded in that, but like it was pointed out, he was part of a squad, and he would have been toast if not for a last second save from Han.

Plus, lets not forget that his Hoth battle went nowhere as glamorous. His partner was shot down, then his ship as well.

And his Dagobah landing wasn't exactly perfect either. So he's not portraid as a master pilot being able to overcome every situation by any strech of the imagination.

Rey isn't superhumanly perfect either if we go into specifics like this. People always bring up her duel with Kylo as an example of how Mary Sue she is. However, she has to be defended by Finn when she's knocked out and loses for the majority of the fight, almost dying at the cliff edge. Kylo even acknowledges that she needs training because she's unrefined.

So yes, Luke isn't a superhuman, I'm not claiming that at all. But I am pointing out that he's as unrealistically powerful as Rey; he defeats military pilots despite his relative lack of experience, is instrumental in destroying the death star and can outshoot stormtroopers, who while are awful shots, logically should wipe the floor with him. 

I have no problem with tearing holes into Star Wars, it's easy to do with all the films because none of them are elegantly written except the Last Jedi, I just have a problem with people who get mad at Rey being a Mary Sue and have no problems with Luke's ridiculous feats.

 

[Meta77]

Luke struggled a lot and lost to Vader the first time, downed by a snow bear, and crashed his ship. Rey beat kylo someone actually trained and had strong force skills. He left a booster shot in mid air. Yet she someone beats elite red guards with next to no training. Rey in TFA was fine but TLJ was noting but a Hollywood joke for money

[QuantumEdge]

1 hour ago, Plasme said:

I'd urge you to watch the films again with an open mind and try to distance yourself from the Star Wars fandom, because you'll see the movies in a new light. Honestly I used to feel the same way as you, but after listening to some fan and critic defences of the films, I realised they are far better than given credit, especially the Last Jedi, which is a very intelligent film.

I'm not even a huge fan of either film, I certainly have a lot of criticisms of Force Awakens, but a lot of the criticisms it receives are based on racism (Finn being black and some kind of political statement) and misogyny (Rey being a Mary Sue and Rose being a diversity quota). I have problems with its plot and pacing, which were initially touched upon on its release but have fallen out of fashion because of the horrible political rhetoric in the Star Wars fandom.

Your response here is pretty flimsy and is representative of someone who is so entrenched in fan culture that you you don't want to admit defeat on this particular point. if we want logic in Star Wars in regards to Rey's Jedi training than it also logically follows that Luke wouldn't beat military pilots because experience in flying domestically on his home planet would not be enough. The fact Stormtroopers are awful shots just further reveals how little logic the Star Wars films ever had, because Luke can outshoot them (trained soldiers) in action scenes. Does that also make Luke a Mary Sue?

So yes, Rey is overpowered and unrealistic, but she's no moreso than Luke. The only reason she's held to a higher standard is because she's a woman.

I've watched enough people explaining why they're so good, I've heard people out, I've rewatched clips and I can still safely say I find films like Last Jedi to be utterly boring, dragged out, poorly written, disappointing rubbish.  No offence, but you don't know me.  I'm not some entrenched fanboy intending to "win", I'm intending to point out how one issue like Luke and Rey piloting ability does not make them bad characters, but continuing on that kind of writing will (like it does with Rey and less so with Luke).  In my view, it has nothing to do with gender, simply writing, and, despite that, I can't help but get the bad feeling you're implying it does with me.

[Plasme]

1 minute ago, QuantumEdge said:

I'm intending to point out how one issue like Luke and Rey piloting ability does not make them bad characters, but continuing on that kind of writing will (like it does with Rey and less so with Luke).

I can't understand what you are trying to say here. Could you elaborate?

[Knight56]

If it was the case where Rey had only one unique skill--say, piloting--then we can assume she just has unusual skill in that area, but can be average elsewhere. She wouldn't be a fantastic fighter, a master mechanic, or strong with the force initially. Luke was in a similar situation, where yes, he did have unusual ability in one or two areas, but we as an audience are willing to forgive that because he isn't very skilled in other areas, and he relies on other characters in dire situations, such as Luke being unable to shake Vader off his ship until Han swoops in.

Rey, however, isn't like that. She has unusual skill in all things she does, whether it be fighting a trainee Sith lord, flying a junker ship or using the Jedi mind trick with little prior knowledge. We can at least believe that Luke could be a good pilot since he has mentioned wanting to become one and validating it with knowledge driving other somewhat similar vehicles back home. With Rey, there is no evidence of having skills in much of anything other than identifying valuable machine parts, basic driving knowledge and average close combat abilities--nothing of which is really referenced later on.

It's not so much a matter of having an ability with little explanation. It's a matter of having too many abilities with little explanation.