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Star Wars fans have it as bad as Sonic fans

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Luke can fly starfighters and defeat military pilots, defeat trained soldier squadrons in gun battles and beats Darth Vader in a duel, one of the most powerful sith lords of all time, despite no duelling training whatsoever. If I duelled a great swordman once and lost I probably wouldn't beat him next time.

And let's not even get into the ludicrous things Anakin can do in the prequels, which fans never talk about.

The only reason people give Rey shit for being a Mary Sue is in the name: because she's a woman.

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14 minutes ago, Plasme said:

beats Darth Vader in a duel, one of the most powerful sith lords of all time, despite no duelling training whatsoever.

Are you for real? He literally gets his ass handed to him in his first duel with Vader even AFTER being trained by *the* Jedi Master. He's only able to beat him after like a year or more of further training and almost giving into the dark side, which is part of his arc.

14 minutes ago, Plasme said:

The only reason people give Rey shit for being a Mary Sue is in the name: because she's a woman.

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Luke defeated Darth Vader after years of training; the release times of the movies make it difficult to see. As for defeating fighters, I think it is well established in Star Wars that Stormtroopers are pretty poor soldiers, what with their shoddy aim and all. I don't think it takes much to believe that.

As for Anakin, yes he was powerful, but he also failed plenty due to his cocky nature. In episode I, he was definitely overpowered, but that became tempered with both personality and ability failings in the later movies. And as despised as it is, the midichlorians are an explanation for his abilities.

Abilities aside, Anakin and Luke have one thing that Rey doesn't: earned respect. Luke has to prove himself and only then is he respected by his peers; he isn't well liked by anyone initially. Anakin was hated by most everyone through his story, save for Padme and Obi Wan, and that mostly happened because he was unwilling to change from his whiny nature and bad attitude and temper.

Rey, however, is liked by practically everyone in the story save for the antagonists, and even then, they admire her in some respect. She does nothing to really earn that respect save for doing things that were completely unexpected of her in a bad way. Fans don't like her because everything comes easy to her save for the truth about her parents, and even then she doesn't linger on that for long. It has nothing to do with her being a woman.

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13 minutes ago, Knight56 said:

It has nothing to do with her being a woman.

Um, yes it does, because, uh... some assholes on /tv/ and reddit said that JJ Abrams created Rey because he hates white men, so anyone and everyone who criticizes Rey is an alt-right Drumpf-supporting bigot. There are no other movies with women except Star Wars, so if you criticize this creatively bankrupt megafranchise you're a misogynist.

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33 minutes ago, Plasme said:

I can't understand what you are trying to say here. Could you elaborate?

This guy basically answered for me V

26 minutes ago, Knight56 said:

If it was the case where Rey had only one unique skill--say, piloting--then we can assume she just has unusual skill in that area, but can be average elsewhere. She wouldn't be a fantastic fighter, a master mechanic, or strong with the force initially. Luke was in a similar situation, where yes, he did have unusual ability in one or two areas, but we as an audience are willing to forgive that because he isn't very skilled in other areas, and he relies on other characters in dire situations, such as Luke being unable to shake Vader off his ship until Han swoops in.

Rey, however, isn't like that. She has unusual skill in all things she does, whether it be fighting a trainee Sith lord, flying a junker ship or using the Jedi mind trick with little prior knowledge. We can at least believe that Luke could be a good pilot since he has mentioned wanting to become one and validating it with knowledge driving other somewhat similar vehicles back home. With Rey, there is no evidence of having skills in much of anything other than identifying valuable machine parts, basic driving knowledge and average close combat abilities--nothing of which is really referenced later on.

It's not so much a matter of having an ability with little explanation. It's a matter of having too many abilities with little explanation.

 

20 minutes ago, Plasme said:

Luke can fly starfighters and defeat military pilots, defeat trained soldier squadrons in gun battles and beats Darth Vader in a duel, one of the most powerful sith lords of all time, despite no duelling training whatsoever. If I duelled a great swordman once and lost I probably wouldn't beat him next time.

And let's not even get into the ludicrous things Anakin can do in the prequels, which fans never talk about.

The only reason people give Rey shit for being a Mary Sue is in the name: because she's a woman.

So, basically, despite my pretty much repeating my stated reasons for finding Rey a worse character than Luke that have nothing to do with gender, I'm somehow still a sexist?

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3 hours ago, Plasme said:

The idea that Rey is even remotely comparable to that is honestly laughable.

And yet here we are, she is comparable and it is honestly laughable.

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

This feels like a really dishonest reframing of the movies relying more on provoking an emotional reaction than anything.

Regardless of what you feel about it, it's a condensed version of Reys story so far retold with original characters with the point that the only real difference between a bad fan character and a bad film character is the budget behind the screenplay.

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7 minutes ago, Azzy said:

Regardless of what you feel about it, it's a condensed version of Reys story so far retold with original characters with the point that the only real difference between a bad fan character and a bad film character is the budget behind the screenplay.

Also the context of the series it's taking place in, and the intent behind the writing.

I'm not interested in getting deep into an argument over Star Wars as I'm not even a fan of it but that really was not an honest appraisal of the movies from what I've seen of them.

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If you break down the story to its default components with little-to-no exaggeration and it sounds bad, that's usually because it is. The Last Jedi's production value was great, and I do think the actors all played their parts well. The main issue is that nothing interesting really happens in the movie, and at any time there would be, expectations are subverted (read: Finn's would-be heroic sacrifice). And we end up at a point where we have no idea where the series will go thanks to there being nothing to build up to it. How many theories were flying around after Force Awakens? Dozens, hundreds even. And now look at the buzz for Episode IX after Last Jedi. I think even the crickets have clammed up.

It reminds me of the situation that Sonic Forces found itself it. A rather mediocre story at best, and with the state of the franchise we don't know how the next mainline game will be. At least the story is continuing through the IDW comics, and if Sonic Team is smart, they will at least draw from it in some way for the next plot.

2 minutes ago, Plasme said:

Where does Luke ever receive training in lightsaber duelling? 

Likely from Yoda. We never saw him being trained, sure, but there were at least two years in between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. I assume they didn't show it since it would have been a technical hassle, and there really wasn't much need to either. Sure, he was old, but that didn't stop him in Episodes II and III.

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Just now, Knight56 said:

Likely from Yoda. We never saw him being trained, sure, but there were at least two years in between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. I assume they didn't show it since it would have been a technical hassle, and there really wasn't much need to either. Sure, he was old, but that didn't stop him in Episodes II and III.

We don't see his lightsaber training because it never happened. The original trilogy never hints at Yoda using a lightsaber, he's proficient in the force. 

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I don't think that's a fair thing to say. We don't see a lot of things that take place in between movies. For example, we don't see Luke build his new lightsaber in Return of the Jedi, yet we can't deny that that happened. You have to read the subtext of the movies at times and infer based on the evidence they offer. Believing only what we see makes movies in general lose a lot of their value.

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Just now, Knight56 said:

Um...prequels? He very clearly uses a lightsaber in them.

That's not a part of the original trilogy and people took the piss at them time about how out of place it was that Yoda used a lighsaber since no one associated them with him.

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5 minutes ago, Plasme said:

That's not a part of the original trilogy and people took the piss at them time about how out of place it was that Yoda used a lighsaber since no one associated them with him.

Doesn't change the fact that he used a lightsaber, regardless of how badly they are received. It's just like we can't deny that the events of a game like Shadow the Hedgehog happened, despite it being messy in the execution of its story.

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1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Also the context of the series it's taking place in, and the intent behind the writing.

I'm not interested in getting deep into an argument over Star Wars as I'm not even a fan of it but that really was not an honest appraisal of the movies from what I've seen of them.

Rey:

Orphan living alone in a desert? Check.

Meets a someone/something who likes her instantly? Check.

Awesome at everything she does? Check.

Loved by all the resistance? Check.

Beats up Ren using the Force? Check.

Beats up Luke after not really teaching her about the Force and generally ignoring her? Check

Letting herself get captured leading to Ren killing Snoke after the latter ordered him to kill her? Check.

Crucial part of the resistance going into IX? Check.

There was no lie in the evaluation. I'm not omitting some important plot point or context and I'm spending more time breaking down her event story than the movies do at explaining why she's so brilliant. I even left out the most blatant hack writing when Snoke implies that the balance of the universe made her so powerful because of him and/or Kylo Ren. 

Great movies though.

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I can do an absurd reductionist reading of the original Star Wars movies too!

Luke:

Unimportant person living in the desert? Check!

Is given a lightsaber and can deflect shots against a droid after 5 minutes? Check!

Can outgun soldiers and dogfight pilots despite no military training? Check!

Can use the force to fire a nearly impossible shot at the Death Star on his first real time using the force? Check!

Letting himself get captured because he magically knows he can save Darth Vader? Check!

Can own Darth Vader after one failed duel despite not having any duelling training established? Check!

 

I could keep going but I think you get the point.

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On 5/12/2019 at 6:07 PM, QuantumEdge said:

Anakin, when looked at, does not suffer the same sort of problems Rey does.  Sure, in Phantom Menace he seems similar, being a skilled, highly compassionate pilot at age 9 because sciency stuff, but after that, he becomes fairly selfish, arrogant and at times even obsessive.  The big kicker though is that we know what drives him (hell, we know what drives Silver in 06).  Anakin wants to be a Jedi, then a Master, then keeping Padme alive.  For Silver, it's saving his future and for Rey... the hell I know.  She just randomly seems highly invested in the troubles of strangers.  Realistically her background would easily make her closed in and looking out for her own skin first.  Also, at least on a visual scale, Christiansen seems more capable than Ridley and that's with Lucas', shall we say, minimalist direction. 

I've been keeping out of the conversation, mostly because I can't remember a whole ton of the prequels, and I've only seen two seasons of Clone Wars, and nothing about Attack of the Clones. In fact, the only prequel I really remember and have interest in - other than Clone Wars because that show is insanely awesome is Revenge of the Sith.

And I think the reason for that is the inherit idea behind Anakin as a character, and how it ties into his later, and previous areas of development as a character. You brought up an excellent point - Anakin is a highly skilled and passionate pilot at age 9, mainly because from what we know - it and tinkering with gadgets and scraps was his only real pass time as a slave. 

However, I feel like this is kind of the one area where Lucas succeeded in what he was attempting to do, because Anakin to me - at least - screams a role reversal of the typical hero's journey. It isn't like Luke where he starts out as a humble farmboy who has simply wants to join a rebellion. Anakin as a character starts out flawed, even without us knowing it.

Behind the bad acting and layers of brilliant chosen one nonsense - Anakin is a pretty fucked up guy. He's filled with anger, hatred, vengeance, and most importantly - paranoia and ego. That last part is a deadly combo, because it's what leads to his downfall. Despite how hypocritical The Jedi Order was (and they were, Clone Wars especially does a brilliant job setting up a lot more reasons why Anakin turns, especially with Ahsoka being scape-goated by them for a period of time), Anakin really wasn't ready to become a Jedi Master in my opinion.  

In the movies, Anakin's one consistent flaw is always egotism, let it be his hotheadedness, his role as chosen one, his special exceptions, such as being trained at such a young age. Anakin doesn't start as a humble person who later gets flaws on his journey, like Luke did, when Vader attempted to convince him to the Dark Side, Anakin starts out heavily flawed, because his Chosen One role led to him being egocentric.

He's extremely cocky, extremely confident, does a hell of a lot of reckless things, expecting them to go smoothly, looks at any situation and is determined they'll escape it easily (He and Obi-Wan's escape from the ship in Episode 3 especially shows this, where in the novel version - he cockily believes they can handle the army of droids that has them trapped with Palpatine, only for even more to show up).

The thing is - those can be either good, or bad qualities. When they're being trained by Obi-Wan, who is a lot wiser and calmer than Anakin, they balance well, he's grounded in a sense. But when he's with Palpatine, who constantly feeds into Anakin's egotism and want of power, they're completely self-destructive, tying into his paranoia that everyone is against him, and he can trust no one. Even when Anakin is denied his role as a master, his next immediate action is to whine about it, and how unfair it is, rather than take it on the chin.

He feels owed to it. Not because he deserves it, because he believes it's a birth right given to him by his chosen one status, despite how many different things he's done that go against the Jedi Order, between murder, marriage, love, and what have you. It gets more difficult as Clone Wars ties into it, which actually displays Anakin a hell of a lot more favourably, showing him as a competent general, jedi, and loyal friend to his troops, and Padawan.

But as the movies show it, Anakin's journey is one where a kid with already a huge reason to have a violent mind is given the biggest role in the galaxy, allowing him to feed into ego, power, and anger. He's shown as making a lot of mistakes as well, with the original drafts of Episode 3, and even Clone Wars displaying that Padme and Anakin's love, and marriage was a mistake - Clone Wars showing by the end of it that Padme was disagreeing more and more with Anakin's ruthless behaviour during the war, and how far they've grown apart.

On top of that, the original Episode 3 drafts had a sub-plot that not only was Anakin's fall to the dark side meant to be done through many different factors (before executives mandated that it be reduced to a single simple reason), but there was originally a plot where Padme, unbeknown to Anakin was secretly setting the Rebels up in the background of the movie, had been angered by Anakin (Which was supposedly meant to tie into their scenes together - Padme was only pretending she still cared about Anakin by using tons of generic and sickening love talk), and would've ended with Padme attempting to murder Anakin on Mustafar, but not being able to go through with it due to still loving him. Had that have gone through, it would've clinched that a lot of Anakin's actions are done through impulse, ego, and anger, but alias it didn't. That's not even beginning to mention that no one really likes Anakin in the Jedi Order, bar Obi-Wan, at least in the movies themselves from what I recall.

Even later in the series, Darth Vader - as shown through additional material is constantly depressed, and in agony. He despises what he's become, he despises what he has done to get there, he constantly feels the pain, and consequences of his actions, constantly dreams about Padme, etc. Anakin is still paying for his actions, even years later - self-aware enough to know what he's doing is wrong, and to feel guilt and regret over it, but also so far into his anger, self-loathing, and hatred that he is unable to accept that he was wrong, and should make amends. 

It happened when Obi-Wan appeared to him so many years later, where he was determined to kill him. It happened when Ahsoka later fought against him in Rebels, Vader weaving a make-believe story that Ahsoka despised and abandoned him in order to justify his own anger and killing against his pupil, and he would continue to do this until he finally realised how far he fell when Luke came into his life. 

All that to say that I really disagree with Anakin being a Mary-Sue type character, even with how bad the prequels are, and how many issues there is. He is so insanely flawed from the beginning that I find it hard to believe that to be the case, and it was originally planned that his actions that would've made him the "special exception" like many Mary-Sue type characters were actually going to backfire on him spectacularly (Padme and Anakin's relationship being revealed to have been them rushing into it due to the circumstances of their "love") and more. The movies have many many problems, but I think Anakin is a pretty decent idea of reversing the trope of the Chosen One, and Mary-Sue type characters in general.

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35 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I've been keeping out of the conversation, mostly because I can't remember a whole ton of the prequels, and I've only seen two seasons of Clone Wars, and nothing about Attack of the Clones. In fact, the only prequel I really remember and have interest in - other than Clone Wars because that show is insanely awesome is Revenge of the Sith.

And I think the reason for that is the inherit idea behind Anakin as a character, and how it ties into his later, and previous areas of development as a character. You brought up an excellent point - Anakin is a highly skilled and passionate pilot at age 9, mainly because from what we know - it and tinkering with gadgets and scraps was his only real pass time as a slave. 

However, I feel like this is kind of the one area where Lucas succeeded in what he was attempting to do, because Anakin to me - at least - screams a role reversal of the typical hero's journey. It isn't like Luke where he starts out as a humble farmboy who has simply wants to join a rebellion. Anakin as a character starts out flawed, even without us knowing it.

Behind the bad acting and layers of brilliant chosen one nonsense - Anakin is a pretty fucked up guy. He's filled with anger, hatred, vengeance, and most importantly - paranoia and ego. That last part is a deadly combo, because it's what leads to his downfall. Despite how hypocritical The Jedi Order was (and they were, Clone Wars especially does a brilliant job setting up a lot more reasons why Anakin turns, especially with Ahsoka being scape-goated by them for a period of time), Anakin really wasn't ready to become a Jedi Master in my opinion.  

In the movies, Anakin's one consistent flaw is always egotism, let it be his hotheadedness, his role as chosen one, his special exceptions, such as being trained at such a young age. Anakin doesn't start as a humble person who later gets flaws on his journey, like Luke did, when Vader attempted to convince him to the Dark Side, Anakin starts out heavily flawed, because his Chosen One role led to him being egocentric.

He's extremely cocky, extremely confident, does a hell of a lot of reckless things, expecting them to go smoothly, looks at any situation and is determined they'll escape it easily (He and Obi-Wan's escape from the ship in Episode 3 especially shows this, where in the novel version - he cockily believes they can handle the army of droids that has them trapped with Palpatine, only for even more to show up).

The thing is - those can be either good, or bad qualities. When they're being trained by Obi-Wan, who is a lot wiser and calmer than Anakin, they balance well, he's grounded in a sense. But when he's with Palpatine, who constantly feeds into Anakin's egotism and want of power, they're completely self-destructive, tying into his paranoia that everyone is against him, and he can trust no one. Even when Anakin is denied his role as a master, his next immediate action is to whine about it, and how unfair it is, rather than take it on the chin.

He feels owed to it. Not because he deserves it, because he believes it's a birth right given to him by his chosen one status, despite how many different things he's done that go against the Jedi Order, between murder, marriage, love, and what have you. It gets more difficult as Clone Wars ties into it, which actually displays Anakin a hell of a lot more favourably, showing him as a competent general, jedi, and loyal friend to his troops, and Padawan.

But as the movies show it, Anakin's journey is one where a kid with already a huge reason to have a violent mind is given the biggest role in the galaxy, allowing him to feed into ego, power, and anger. He's shown as making a lot of mistakes as well, with the original drafts of Episode 3, and even Clone Wars displaying that Padme and Anakin's love, and marriage was a mistake - Clone Wars showing by the end of it that Padme was disagreeing more and more with Anakin's ruthless behaviour during the war, and how far they've grown apart.

On top of that, the original Episode 3 drafts had a sub-plot that not only was Anakin's fall to the dark side meant to be done through many different factors (before executives mandated that it be reduced to a single simple reason), but there was originally a plot where Padme, unbeknown to Anakin was secretly setting the Rebels up in the background of the movie, had been angered by Anakin (Which was supposedly meant to tie into their scenes together - Padme was only pretending she still cared about Anakin by using tons of generic and sickening love talk), and would've ended with Padme attempting to murder Anakin on Mustafar, but not being able to go through with it due to still loving him. Had that have gone through, it would've clinched that a lot of Anakin's actions are done through impulse, ego, and anger, but alias it didn't. That's not even beginning to mention that no one really likes Anakin in the Jedi Order, bar Obi-Wan, at least in the movies themselves from what I recall.

Even later in the series, Darth Vader - as shown through additional material is constantly depressed, and in agony. He despises what he's become, he despises what he has done to get there, he constantly feels the pain, and consequences of his actions, constantly dreams about Padme, etc. Anakin is still paying for his actions, even years later - self-aware enough to know what he's doing is wrong, and to feel guilt and regret over it, but also so far into his anger, self-loathing, and hatred that he is unable to accept that he was wrong, and should make amends. 

It happened when Obi-Wan appeared to him so many years later, where he was determined to kill him. It happened when Ahsoka later fought against him in Rebels, Vader weaving a make-believe story that Ahsoka despised and abandoned him in order to justify his own anger and killing against his pupil, and he would continue to do this until he finally realised how far he fell when Luke came into his life. 

All that to say that I really disagree with Anakin being a Mary-Sue type character, even with how bad the prequels are, and how many issues there is. He is so insanely flawed from the beginning that I find it hard to believe that to be the case, and it was originally planned that his actions that would've made him the "special exception" like many Mary-Sue type characters were actually going to backfire on him spectacularly (Padme and Anakin's relationship being revealed to have been them rushing into it due to the circumstances of their "love") and more. The movies have many many problems, but I think Anakin is a pretty decent idea of reversing the trope of the Chosen One, and Mary-Sue type characters in general.

First off, you really need to watch the rest of Clone Wars if you've just seen two seasons.  That stuff gets crazy good.  Secondly, I totally agree about the failed Padme subplot.  That very well could've been a saving grace for ROTS.  I mean it would certainly tie into the Shakespearean tragedy Lucas was clearly going for.  I've seen others speculate George was going for a Hero's Journey with a twist and I'd say it's pretty likely he very well might have had that on his mind a the very least, considering how much he's leaned into Joseph Campbell.

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When it comes to content, we’re in a far worse place than Star Wars. When it comes to the actual fandom though? Please. 

 

Content-wise, Sonic’s first dark age is probably akin to the prequel trilogy, but even then, at the least, a film like Phantom Menace was still competently made, not fundamentally broken, like 06 or Boom. 06 is akin to a movie like The Room or some shit - flawed and bad in almost every way, almost to a charming extent.  And regardless of your opinions on the sequel trilogy (PSA: it’s really not as bad as some of you ppl are making it out to be), those are at worst, competent movies with effort and care behind them. The prequels have even been retroactively improved through Clone Wars - and you can’t say the same for something like ShtH. The content in Star Wars is far more consistent and quality than that of Sonic’s, especially as of late. Last Jedi might not have been everyone’s cup of tea, but a lot of people (myself and the majority of critics included) thought it was stellar. I don’t think Sonic has had a product in the last couple years that even a pocket of people have genuinely enjoyed. 

 

Fandom-wise: since the release of Force Awakens (and really ever since the prequels), the Star Wars fandom has cannibalized itself and become an intensely toxic community to be a part of. The Sonic fanbase has a stigma online for being whiny and delusional, and that’s not 100% untrue, but at the very least we’ve never ran someone affiliated with the series off of social media with racist and sexist comments. Star Wars fans did though! And it was super fucked up. As evidenced by even some replies in this thread, Star Wars just ... does something to people that inspires hostility for whatever reason, and it results in shit like the Kelly Marie Tran incident. Being a Sonic fan isn’t always fun, but that’s because of the dearth of actual quality content for the last 6 years or so, not because the fandom itself is a terrible place to be.*

 

Similar boat. Definitely not the same.

*for the most part. Being an Archie fan around the time #225 dropped was p fuckin scary lol 

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4 hours ago, Plasme said:

I could keep going but I think you get the point.

I could keep going but I don't think you'll ever get the point that Rey being a Sue is not a gender issue.

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5 hours ago, Azzy said:

Rey:

....

Awesome at everything she does? Check.

 

7 hours ago, Knight56 said:

If it was the case where Rey had only one unique skill--say, piloting--then we can assume she just has unusual skill in that area, but can be average elsewhere. She wouldn't be a fantastic fighter, a master mechanic, or strong with the force initially.

Rey really isn't brilliant at everything, by quite a way; while she's obviously anomalously powerful with the Force (the exploration of which is her character's main story trajectory) and a good mechanic and fighter (due to her life as a scavenger), her other skills aren't exactly top tier and she doesn't instantly excel in them.

She's a fair pilot (again due to her scavenger experience), but she still smashes the Falcon all over the place initially and has to rely on leading her opponent into terrain that she's intimately familiar with to give her an advantage.

She completely fucks up the situation with the Rathtars and almost gets everyone killed.

When confronted by Stormtroopers on Takodana, she bungles a clean shot by forgetting to take the safety off, allowing the Stormtrooper to get off his shot first, and while she takes down the first two troopers, half of those shots are way off (look closely at where one of the two shots at the second trooper lands, she's not even close).

Her first fight with Kylo Ren involves her running away from him terrified and completely unable to touch him while he casually shuts her down with the Force, begins to Mind Rape her then knocks her unconscious.

Her second fight with Ren has her being knocked unconscious by him in seconds.

And when she finally regains consciousness and faces him again, he continually dominates her and forces her back until she's on the edge of a cliff, despite the fact that Ren at this point is literally punching his own wounds to stave off unconsciousness from the gaping hole in his abdomen he's bleeding out from for the last 15 minutes, Rey only besting him when she finally taps into the Force.

Her plan of recruiting Luke to help the Resistance is a bust.

She embarrasses herself at the start of her Jedi training by 'reaching out' literally, then makes a mental beeline straight into the dark side nexus to Luke's horror. Then stupidly sticks her head into it against his prior advice. She also incidentally pisses the frog person custodians off something chronic.

She's manipulated by both Ren and Snoke through the Force bond, falling for Snoke's plan hook line and sinker. When she faces him, she's entirely helpless against him and only survives due to Ren's betrayal. She then tries to turn Ben, and fails.

.....

She may be able to pull off some decent Force skills (and even some of those are slightly iffy; the Mind Trick that she tries after learning that she can influence minds from instinctively pushing back against Ren fails multiple times initially), but the idea that she's instantly flawless or the best at everything she does isn't really true.

I'm also a bit scratching my head at the "Everyone loves Rey" bit; her peers on Jakku aren't exactly back-slapping buddies with her, Luke isn't all over her and the frog-person custodians on Anch-To despise her. Han warms to her due to her mechanical skills and interest in the Falcon, while Finn forms a bond with her due to her being the only person actively helping him on Jakku. Is this any different from Luke, really? Han is wary of him but quickly warms up, and the Rebellion immediately welcomes him with open arms.

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31 minutes ago, Nestor said:

 

Rey really isn't brilliant at everything, by quite a way; while she's obviously anomalously powerful with the Force (the exploration of which is her character's main story trajectory) and a good mechanic (due to her life as a scavenger), her other skills aren't exactly top tier and she doesn't instantly excel in them.

She's a fair pilot (again due to her scavenger experience), but she still smashes the Falcon all over the place initially and has to rely on leading her opponent into terrain that she's intimately familiar with to give her an advantage.

She completely fucks up the situation with the Rathtars and almost gets everyone killed.

When confronted by Stormtroopers on Takodana, she bungles a clean shot by forgetting to take the safety off, allowing the Stormtrooper to get off his shot first, and while she takes down the first two troopers, half of those shots are way off (look closely at where one of the two shots at the second trooper lands, she's not even close).

Her first fight with Kylo Ren involves her running away from him terrified and completely unable to touch him while he casually shuts her down with the Force, begins to Mind Rape her then knocks her unconscious.

Her second fight with Ren has her being knocked unconscious by him in seconds.

And when she finally regains consciousness and faces him again, he continually dominates her and forces her back until she's on the edge of a cliff, despite the fact that Ren at this point is literally punching his own wounds to stave off unconsciousness from the gaping hole in his abdomen he's bleeding out from for the last 15 minutes, Rey only besting him when she finally taps into the Force.

Her plan of recruiting Luke to help the Resistance is a bust.

She embarrasses herself at the start of her Jedi training by 'reaching out' literally, then makes a mental beeline straight into the dark side nexus to Luke's horror. Then stupidly sticks her head into it against his prior advice. She also incidentally pisses the frog person custodians off something chronic.

She's manipulated by both Ren and Snoke through the Force bond, falling for Snoke's plan hook line and sinker. When she faces him, she's entirely helpless against him and only survives due to Ren's betrayal. She then tries to turn Ben, and fails.

.....

She may be able to pull off some decent Force skills (and even some of those are slightly iffy; the Mind Trick that she tries after learning that she can influence minds from instinctively pushing back against Ren fails multiple times initially), but the idea that she's instantly flawless or the best at everything she does isn't really true.

I'm also a bit scratching my head at the "Everyone loves Rey" bit; her peers on Jakku aren't exactly back-slapping buddies with her, Luke isn't all over her and the frog-person custodians on Anch-To despise her. Han warms to her due to her mechanical skills and interest in the Falcon, while Finn forms a bond with her due to her being the only person actively helping him on Jakku. Is this any different from Luke, really? Han is wary of him but quickly warms up, and the Rebellion immediately welcomes him with open arms.

Maybe I should rephrase what I meant by 'instantly good at everything'. She fails initially, sure, but in the next scene or something like that, she usually rebounds and proves that she learned from her mistake--despite having little-to-no training beforehand. Yes, she makes mistakes, but they are rather superficial in the grand scheme of things, especially since the flaws she has are only really showcased once.

Scavenging ability does not equal mechanical knowledge. She might know a good part from a bad, and what could be valuable, but how can she be expected to know how they work together just from jumbled pieces?

And again, scavenging does not equal piloting experience. She is seen riding on a speeder, but that is two-dimensional. It's like comparing driving a car to controlling a plane; they are very different from one another.

Yes, she fails in the instance with the Rathtars, I'll give you that, but that ended up working in their favor so they could get away from the thugs. I don't think it can be considered a true failure; it is a failure that worked to their benefit.

I think that being a sharpshooter is not one of her strengths, so I'll give you that. However, shooting isn't involved anywhere else in either movie on her part, so the general trend with her abilities isn't evident.

Yes, she is trapped by Kylo Ren in their first encounter, but to be fair, he caught her by surprise and gave her little chance to react. By this point, her Force abilities have not manifested, which, as previously established with other abilities, usually manifest in the next scene after the initial failure.

In the second fight, she does fail, but like every other moment you mention, the scene directly after has her succeeding practically perfectly. She fails once, then instantly learns the best way. That is not character development.

And Rey pulling off what appears to be a narrow victory is the closest she has come to a true failure that has an impact in the greater narrative. The issue arises with how badly she beats Kylo Ren, despite him having a wound, which can actually amplify his power due to him drawing on the Dark Side to augment his abilities. If it was a narrow victory, such as Rey managing to beat him back at the last second, only for the planet to split between them and end their duel, rather than her literally beating him to the ground and only then for the planet to crack. She could have killed him if that didn't happen, and while I doubt that would have been the case, the fact that she could have is the important point.

Recruiting Luke was a bust, yes, but Rey comes to learn that she doesn't need him, and, ultimately, the Resistance doesn't either. He does nothing to impact the story save for convincing Rey of this...and I think that was the point.

The whole deal with 'reaching out' and the keepers are a point of comedy more than anything. She was naive, yes, and that fact could have had a greater impact throughout the narrative and made it a vital part of her character development. But no, she doesn't learn, and it is only done for comedy.

Which brings me to her being manipulated by Snoke and Kylo Ren. She was naive, and for once, yes, she did fail. But once again, this failure turns out for their benefit. If Rey didn't foolishly go to Kylo Ren, he might not have had the guts to kill Snoke himself. Just like the Rathtars, the mistake only advanced her position rather than set her back. The only failure that can be legitimately said to not advance the story is Kylo refusing to join her...but it doesn't set her back either. She had nothing to lose, and everything to gain..

Again, Rey isn't instantly good at whatever she does, but the failures she has tend to only bring her where she needs to be, and in the scene directly after, she is as good as she needs to be to succeed. She isn't instantly charming to everyone, sure, but the fact that she impresses everyone with skills that aren't earned in a meaningful way is the bigger issue. If she had training of some sort, or if it was at least established where and how she learned these abilities, then having major side characters almost instantly liking her wouldn't be as big of a deal.

EDIT: Oh, and Han warms up to Luke after nearly dying on the Death Star, so there's already incentive to like someone who had your back, and the Rebellion would likely be willing to work with anyone who was a) willing to join and b) saved a major political figure (Princess Leia).

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17 minutes ago, Nestor said:

 

 but the idea that she's instantly flawless or the best at everything she does isn't really true.

For a flaw to work it has to have at least some consequence to her character. The only time she shows any real sign of failure or reflection is her first encounter with Kylo Ren and first finding the lightsaber. Which leads to her getting caught and she breaks free by herself anyway. Best might be an exaggeration, inexplicably good at everything is entirely fitting because even she doesn't know how she's doing half the stuff she does.

 

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