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Star Wars fans have it as bad as Sonic fans

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Starting with Force Awakens, it was more the villains that bothered me than the heroes. The villains did not seem to be a compelling obstacle.

They made Kylo Ren weak on purpose. And I know why they did; it was part of his characterization. "Never as good as Darth Vader." And I get that, but it has consequences. He displayed extreme levels of angst. He got shot by a blaster (bowcaster), the first Star Wars villain jedi to be shot on-screen. He lost a fight against a rookie and barely escaped alive.

And the First Order was garbage. They lost and retreated from every on-screen battle against the "Resistance" in Force Awakens. Their red-headed general screamed like a shrill child. And all they had was their superweapon... when they destroyed "the Republic", it felt more like a terrorist group getting lucky with a dirty bomb, and not like a military power.

It's not that Rey was a mary sue or the heroes were good, it's that Kylo and the First Order are absolute losers.

Add to that, the whole setup of "the Republic" and "the Resistance" sounds like third grader fanfiction. That "Republic" was just a pinata to be popped. You can call Episode I politics boring, but at least their worldbuilding was something that could be followed.

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Kylo also killed Snoke and took over the First Order. I'd agree that he was utterly incompetent in Force Awakens, but not so in the Last Jedi.

I do think the First Order are generally awful villains, but it's not like the Empire in the original trilogy are any better. Bobba Fett is cool but a joke, Peter Cushing is a great actor but his character dies a humiliating death and the stormtroopers are notoriously useless.

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1 hour ago, Plasme said:

Kylo also killed Snoke and took over the First Order. I'd agree that he was utterly incompetent in Force Awakens, but not so in the Last Jedi.

I do think the First Order are generally awful villains, but it's not like the Empire in the original trilogy are any better. Bobba Fett is cool but a joke, Peter Cushing is a great actor but his character dies a humiliating death and the stormtroopers are notoriously useless.

Yes, the second film tried to improve the antagonists. Snoke even lectured Kylo, pretty much channeling all fan complaints about his weaknesses as a villain. And Kylo had some moments. More importantly, the First Order was actually winning a battle against the "Resistance", instead of running away from them. Except now, without Snoke, they're kind of in a weakened and chaotic state, yeah? I still get vibes of "terrorist cell" instead of "military powerhouse". And with the second film, my issues do swing back toward the heroes. The three lady generals really needed to communicate with their lieutenants so that everyone knew a plan was in order. And really, if you don't want to accuse critics of sexism, maybe give General Purple-hair a uniform instead of a dinner dress.

 

"but it's not like the Empire in the original trilogy are any better. Bobba Fett is cool but a joke, Peter Cushing is a great actor but his character dies a humiliating death and the stormtroopers are notoriously useless"

Whoa, hey!

1) Yes, Boba Fett is overrated.

2) Tarkin's death was appropriate and cathartic in my mind. I'm not sure what counts as humiliation.

3) Joke about stormtroopers, but they won battles. Rebels ran away from them. (Yes, the First Order learned how to achieve this by TLJ, but they didn't have it in TFA). Stormtroopers won their battles abd had the good guys running up until Battle of Endor (and I give Han's commandos and the ewoks a lot more credit than most people do). TIE Fighters also won their battles except for Yavin and Endor, and all expanded materials at the time were clear that after the first Death Star was destroyed, those Rebels on Yavin were beaten and scattered to the winds. In OT, the Empire is always clearly the powerhouse, and the Rebels are always clearly the underdogs/terrorists/freedom fighters.

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4 hours ago, Plasme said:

Even when presented with clear evidence that she isnt perfect at everything, at least not more than a Star Wars protagonist, you still insist. Incredible.

At this point, let's just agree to disagree. It's clear that you don't want to change your viewpoint, and I don't want to change mine. Same goes for others here. 

Plus, I don't want to argue against your degrading tone. I try and be reasonable with my points without insulting any people or characters; I want to be as objective as possible. So if you're going to essentially insult me for carrying my viewpoint without more evidence to back it up, then I'll just go.

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I'm not changing my viewpoint, but only because the interpretation of Rey as a Mary Sue who is literally perfect at everything is blatantly reductive. As has just been shown in the last post. I mean yeah she's unrealistically skilled, as are all Star Wars characters, but the idea that she's some messiah who's amazing at everything is such a simplistic reading of it, as has been abundantly shown in the past page.

It gets even worse when conspiracy theories about them doing it to appeal to feminists and SJW's come in. And let's be honest, that's an overwhelming factor in most people's hatred of Rey.

It's not that you can't criticise the film. BaronGrackle's criticisms are fair. And I actually have changed my viewpoint in the Last Jedi in the past; I used to hate it.  I just take issue with the Rey reading because it's a juvenile interpretation.

I mean imagine if I said Sonic sucks because all he does is go fast, and then when you disagree and say its far more complicated than that I say 'you don't want to change your viewpoint as much as I don't want to change mine'.

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22 minutes ago, Plasme said:

I'm not changing my viewpoint, but only because the interpretation of Rey as a Mary Sue who is literally perfect at everything is blatantly reductive. As has just been shown in the last post. I mean yeah she's unrealistically skilled, as are all Star Wars characters, but the idea that she's some messiah who's amazing at everything is such a simplistic reading of it, as has been abundantly shown in the past page.

It gets even worse when conspiracy theories about them doing it to appeal to feminists and SJW's come in. And let's be honest, that's an overwhelming factor in most people's hatred of Rey.

It's not that you can't criticise the film. BaronGrackle's criticisms are fair. And I actually have changed my viewpoint in the Last Jedi in the past; I used to hate it.  I just take issue with the Rey reading because it's a juvenile interpretation.

I mean imagine if I said Sonic sucks because all he does is go fast, and then when you disagree and say its far more complicated than that I say 'you don't want to change your viewpoint as much as I don't want to change mine'.

Well, the arguments intersect with each other. If Rey beats down Kylo without any training, it's hard to pinpoint whether that's because Rey is ridiculously adept or because Kylo is ridiculously inept.

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41 minutes ago, Plasme said:

I'm not changing my viewpoint, but only because the interpretation of Rey as a Mary Sue who is literally perfect at everything is blatantly reductive.

And yet demonstrably true. Nestor to his credit at least put forward counterpoints as to why Rey isn't "literally perfect" rather than deflecting and running to strawmen and sexism, problem is her flaws are inconsequential and superficial: another trait of a Sue.

41 minutes ago, Plasme said:

It gets even worse when conspiracy theories about them doing it to appeal to feminists and SJW's come in. And let's be honest, that's an overwhelming factor in most people's hatred of Rey.

Oh boy here we go

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36 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

Well, the arguments intersect with each other. If Rey beats down Kylo without any training, it's hard to pinpoint whether that's because Rey is ridiculously adept or because Kylo is ridiculously inept.

Did you miss Ben getting shot by Chewbacca's Bowcaster? It's hard to believe you did, because the movie spent multiple scenes showing us how powerful it is and how he was in pain from the shot.

Oh, and there's his obvious emotional anguish from killing Han.

And even then he was easily beating her until she calmed herself and let the Force guide her.

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21 hours ago, Plasme said:

I can do an absurd reductionist reading of the original Star Wars movies too!

You can also argue in good faith without acting like anyone who disagrees with you has another arm coming out of their ass, for once, or don't bother at all.

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30 minutes ago, Marcello said:

Did you miss Ben getting shot by Chewbacca's Bowcaster? It's hard to believe you did, because the movie spent multiple scenes showing us how powerful it is and how he was in pain from the shot.

But that's another negative! Kylo LET HIMSELF GET SHOT. Name another Force-using Star Wars villain that let himself get shot. Not Vader, not Palpatine, not Maul, not Dooku.

"But Grackle, he was distracted because he just sacrificed his dad, and that's part of Kylo's character development."

Yes, I understand. The weakness and torn conscious is part of Kylo's characterization. But it's still weakness. He's still a little punk that got shot then beaten half to death, because life is so hard guys, and bless his heart for trying.

But if Kylo is busy being a weak, tragic figure, then who do we look to as a compelling antagonist? If the First Order is incapable of standing toe-to-toe with the Resistance without taking too many casualties and fleeing the field (in The Force Awakens, I mean), then where is the threat?

When I watch The Force Awakens, how am I suppposed to believe there's a snowball's chance that the good guys could possibly lose, even for a little bit?

. . .

But hey. Again, I do think they improved on the villains' weaknesses for the sequel. A little. I still don't like Last Jedi, but for mostly different reasons.

EDIT: The fact that Rey calmed herself and used the Force should be a given. It doesn't make Kylo's defeat less embarrassing, as Snoke pointed out.

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31 minutes ago, Tornado said:

You can also argue in good faith without acting like anyone who disagrees with you has another arm coming out of their ass, for once, or don't bother at all.

Not all opinions are equally valid. Anyone who says Rey is obscenely overpowered and loved by everyone is misrepresenting the films. Especially when the Rey criticisms are intricately linked to a conspiracy theory that Disney made her that way to appease 'SJW's' and feminists. 

24 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

But if Kylo is busy being a weak, tragic figure, then who do we look to as a compelling antagonist? If the First Order is incapable of standing toe-to-toe with the Resistance without taking too many casualties and fleeing the field (in The Force Awakens, I mean), then where is the threat?

 

The fact Kylo is weak and vulnerable is what makes him a compelling antagonist.

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13 minutes ago, Plasme said:

Not all opinions are equally valid. Anyone who says Rey is obscenely overpowered and loved by everyone is misrepresenting the films. 

Okay, I'll make this simple for you, just so you can't miss the point so much this time that you end up in space:

You can either argue the contrasting viewpoints points in good faith, or you can ignore them as the rantings of some alt-right sexist and not respond to them. What you will not do, and I don't care how many circle-jerking likes your posts have been getting so far, is dismiss people arguing against you as hypocritical sexists rantings and strawman whatever points you failed to understand in this discussion because it fits your argument better to do so. Do you understand?

 

 

Shit like this:

8 hours ago, Plasme said:

Even when presented with clear evidence that she isnt perfect at everything, at least not more than a Star Wars protagonist, you still insist. Incredible.

There isn't a context in the world where this post as a response to the people in this thread that have been attempting to engage you with discussion doesn't make you look like an arrogant fool. He "insists" because he doesn't believe you have actually supported your argument; just like you insist seemingly because you want everyone to be impressed with how super woke you are by calling out people on a message board for using a fandom term describing bad character writing.

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Plasme said:

Especially when the Rey criticisms are intricately linked to a conspiracy theory that Disney made her that way to appease 'SJW's' and feminists. 

Repeating something doesn't make it true. One doesn't need to be part of the hexagonal alt-right Reddit Trump-voting conspiracy to think that Ghostbusters 2016 fucking sucked. One doesn't need to be sexist to think that Rey's character flaws are nominal at best.

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7 minutes ago, Tornado said:

There isn't a context in the world where this post as a response to the people in this thread that have been attempting to engage you with discussion doesn't make you look like an arrogant fool.

Yes it was. Someone just gave a lengthy explanation of why Rey is not this overpowered caricature and they gave very weak responses reiterating their view rather than just admitting she isn't a two dimensional character. I have no problems with people thinking she's too unrealistic or has a weak character arc, but this absurd view that she's an obscenely perfect woman is inherently tied to the idea she's made for 'SJW's' and 'feminists', is sexist and needs to be called out.

You can call that 'woke' if you want to, but that just makes me think you agree with them and are getting mad.

I'll stop here anyway, you can respond if you want and I'll let you have the final say.

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13 minutes ago, Plasme said:

Yes it was. Someone just gave a lengthy explanation of why Rey is not this overpowered caricature and they gave very weak responses reiterating their view rather than just admitting she isn't a two dimensional character. I have no problems with people thinking she's too unrealistic or has a weak character arc, but this absurd view that she's an obscenely perfect woman is inherently tied to the idea she's made for 'SJW's' and 'feminists', is sexist and needs to be called out.

You can call that 'woke' if you want to, but that just makes me think you agree with them and are getting mad.

I'll stop here anyway, you can respond if you want and I'll let you have the final say.

Call my and others' responses 'weak' if you like, but that has no bearing on anything until you tell us why they're weak. I don't want to argue anymore on the subject, but if you want to come off as a credible, reasonable person to discuss with, you have to stop being so fallacious.

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2 hours ago, Plasme said:

Yes it was. Someone just gave a lengthy explanation of why Rey is not this overpowered caricature and they gave very weak responses reiterating their view rather than just admitting she isn't a two dimensional character.

It's like you're physically incapable of intellectual honesty in debates. That member explained why they thought her flaws were of little consequence to her character as presented. The person immediately before did as well, and at great length to boot. Someone making a "lengthy explanation" for why they disagree with someone is not the "being presented with clear evidence" stick you tried to beat people with.

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I have no problems with people thinking she's too unrealistic or has a weak character arc,

It seems like you had quite a problem with that so far, considering your insistence that her character arc/flaws are as fleshed out as the ones Luke went through and repeatedly going to the "the only reason people feel different about Rey is because she's a woman" well when people attempted to disagree. That's before we get to your post where you called the member out for disagreeing with you after you considered it settled.

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but the idea she's this absurd view that she's an obscenely perfect woman is inherently tied to the idea she's made for 'SJW's' and 'feminists', is sexist and needs to be called out.

It's like you're physically incapable of intellectual honesty in debates. No one said she was "an obscenely perfect woman," least of all before you decided to wander in here and try and link people not thinking Rey had much character depth with the supposed inherent misogyny of the term used.

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You can call that 'woke' if you want to, but that just makes me think you agree with them and are getting mad.

It's like you're physically incapable of intellectual honesty in debates. I wasn't the one who wandered into this thread calling arguments dumb/sexist as if it was a ironclad rebuttal in itself; then doubled down acting as if someone having the gall to still disagree with you on something was "incredible."

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I'll stop here anyway

I suspect you won't, but as long as you knock this condescending bullshit off for why your subjective interpretation of a character in a multi-billion dollar movie franchise is the correct and culturally enlightened one, I don't really care.

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That Classic or Modern argument is exactly the type of stuff that make me avoid certain threads.

Particularly when they get that close to being personal/petty.

On 5/12/2019 at 10:49 AM, Heckboy said:

I hate the term Mary Sure because it's been so misused over the years that it is essentially meaningless,

There's a number of words like that, arguably.

On 5/12/2019 at 10:49 AM, Heckboy said:

I hate the term Mary Sure because it's been so misused over the years that it is essentially meaningless, but Rey doesn't actually struggle for anything. She's totally badass and competent right off the bat, as opposed to Luke who's a whiny idiot at the start and grows over time. Nothing inherently wrong with protagonists who are just fucking badass from the getgo, but it's a stupid approach with the type of hero's journey story that Star Wars is meant to be.

Plus Daisy Ridley is a horrible actress. 

I forgot where I heard this, but it has been said a Gary Stu tends to be more accepted/functional than the standard term.

On 5/12/2019 at 1:07 PM, QuantumEdge said:

Right, might as well have a go at this.

Anakin, when looked at, does not suffer the same sort of problems Rey does.  Sure, in Phantom Menace he seems similar, being a skilled, highly compassionate pilot at age 9 because sciency stuff, but after that, he becomes fairly selfish, arrogant and at times even obsessive.  The big kicker though is that we know what drives him (hell, we know what drives Silver in 06).  Anakin wants to be a Jedi, then a Master, then keeping Padme alive.  For Silver, it's saving his future and for Rey... the hell I know.  She just randomly seems highly invested in the troubles of strangers.  Realistically her background would easily make her closed in and looking out for her own skin first.  Also, at least on a visual scale, Christiansen seems more capable than Ridley and that's with Lucas', shall we say, minimalist direction. 

As for Rey and her training, it's more BS on her part than Luke because you can easily tell that in TLJ she stays with Luke for a couple days, or more, gets no input about lightsaber combat, yet completely owns specially trained bodyguards anyway.  With Luke, it's left more in the air how long he stays on Dagobah, yet he gets wiped around the floor by Vader because, quite frankly, that's better storytelling - keeping the stakes and tension high as a kite.  Certainly makes a better story than Rey cutting up lobster men.

The key problems in play are struggle and investment.  With how astonishingly multi talented Rey is, you have to wonder how the hell she ever stayed on Jakku as a scavenger and not stolen a ship outta there.  The lack of struggle will never give a character much interest, or attention and thus, you lose the investment.  With both Luke and Anakin, you have struggle and investment in plain sight (all right, for the latter it's not quite so well written, but it's there).

.

On 5/12/2019 at 12:38 PM, Azzy said:

Mannequin Skywalker wasn't using Jedi Mind tricks 20 minutes after learning the Force was a thing, lost his arm in his first sabre fight (despite years of training with actual Jedi no less), at least had a partial explanation for being a decent pilot and was treated with general distrust and suspicion from the cast outside of Space McGregor and Portman.

Rey uses Mind Tricks 20 minutes after learning the Force was a thing, has already owned Kylo Ren in her first fight (oh the suspense for the new film), is an amazing pilot despite never having flown before, knows more about a ship and how to fix it than those who've used it for years, is instantly a crack shot with pistol, everyone that meets her instantly likes her, those that don't she just beats up and then leaves and while most struggle lifting rocks she lifts a several ton cave entrance 1st try. The term Mary Sue is overused and vaguely/widely defined, Rey however is a textbook Sue and the biggest reason there's so much furious arguing over it is through the majority of defenders having made it a gender issue over abysmal writing. TLJ could have done a lot to make her character more grounded but it didn't and saying Star Wars has always had issues doesn't absolve the new characters of theirs.

On 5/12/2019 at 1:07 PM, QuantumEdge said:

Right, might as well have a go at this.

Anakin, when looked at, does not suffer the same sort of problems Rey does.  Sure, in Phantom Menace he seems similar, being a skilled, highly compassionate pilot at age 9 because sciency stuff, but after that, he becomes fairly selfish, arrogant and at times even obsessive.  The big kicker though is that we know what drives him (hell, we know what drives Silver in 06).  Anakin wants to be a Jedi, then a Master, then keeping Padme alive.  For Silver, it's saving his future and for Rey... the hell I know.  She just randomly seems highly invested in the troubles of strangers.  Realistically her background would easily make her closed in and looking out for her own skin first.  Also, at least on a visual scale, Christiansen seems more capable than Ridley and that's with Lucas', shall we say, minimalist direction. 

As for Rey and her training, it's more BS on her part than Luke because you can easily tell that in TLJ she stays with Luke for a couple days, or more, gets no input about lightsaber combat, yet completely owns specially trained bodyguards anyway.  With Luke, it's left more in the air how long he stays on Dagobah, yet he gets wiped around the floor by Vader because, quite frankly, that's better storytelling - keeping the stakes and tension high as a kite.  Certainly makes a better story than Rey cutting up lobster men.

The key problems in play are struggle and investment.  With how astonishingly multi talented Rey is, you have to wonder how the hell she ever stayed on Jakku as a scavenger and not stolen a ship outta there.  The lack of struggle will never give a character much interest, or attention and thus, you lose the investment.  With both Luke and Anakin, you have struggle and investment in plain sight (all right, for the latter it's not quite so well written, but it's there).

To be a little fair, I felt like The Last Jedi did make an effort to delve into her motivations and abilities.

However, the root of the problem definitely could've been avoided--Rey being skilled and capable in some areas is fine, but the story should've also tried to take more advantage of some areas where she wouldn't be that proficient.

.

On 5/12/2019 at 2:59 PM, MadmanRB said:

Okay maybe its time to play SJW bingo a bit and see how it goes here is your free space for those playing at home:

maybe we would not have this argument if Rey had a penis..... I mean I gave a good argument on maybe why Rey is so skilled but hey whatever

Sally Acorn has the same issue if you made her a male black hedgehog who rode on a bike and carried a firearm she would be the most popular character in the sonic franchise.

 

I guess thats another thing the Sonic and star wars fans have in common, the term mary sue thrown about because its Tuesday and of course because both are female characters.

Mm...technically true-ish, but unfortunately that primarily served a distraction and/or easy go to.

It probably doesn't help that's it's arguably intentional or at least made out to be later by the people with actual creative connections.

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On 5/12/2019 at 6:45 PM, Skull Leader said:

 

And just to make a Sonic comparisson with Rey, I will mention the buddy character from Sonic Forces, who is also liked by everyone and achieves so much more than any of the other characters that had been with Sonic on his fight against Eggman. 

 

At the very least, Buddy did have a clearer character arc for what time he/she was given.

I think part of the problem with Rey is, as an extension of the things handed to her point, is that we're not entirely sure what her deal is beyond her parents and that's sorta buried in the Last Jedi without much else left and/or to take its place. Like, it's been a while since I saw either movie, but definitely remember leaving the theater with a general thought of what are even gonna do in the next movie.

On 5/13/2019 at 12:20 PM, Plasme said:

Where does Luke ever receive training in lightsaber duelling? 

Well for one, there was that ball thing Obi-Wan gave him.

It's also worth noting that skill with a lightsaber does also involve being attuned with the Force. Which for one is why the ball thing also involves covering your eyes.

On 5/13/2019 at 12:22 PM, Knight56 said:

If you break down the story to its default components with little-to-no exaggeration and it sounds bad, that's usually because it is. The Last Jedi's production value was great, and I do think the actors all played their parts well. The main issue is that nothing interesting really happens in the movie, and at any time there would be, expectations are subverted (read: Finn's would-be heroic sacrifice). And we end up at a point where we have no idea where the series will go thanks to there being nothing to build up to it. How many theories were flying around after Force Awakens? Dozens, hundreds even. And now look at the buzz for Episode IX after Last Jedi. I think even the crickets have clammed up.

It reminds me of the situation that Sonic Forces found itself it. A rather mediocre story at best, and with the state of the franchise we don't know how the next mainline game will be. At least the story is continuing through the IDW comics, and if Sonic Team is smart, they will at least draw from it in some way for the next plot.

Likely from Yoda. We never saw him being trained, sure, but there were at least two years in between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. I assume they didn't show it since it would have been a technical hassle, and there really wasn't much need to either. Sure, he was old, but that didn't stop him in Episodes II and III.

Yeah, that's kind of a problem I've had with both--they put themselves in a situation where a overly showy move or two left the future at least a little too unclear for comfort.

We've at least seen a trailer of Episode 9 by this point, so if nothing else there's that. :neutral:

Sonic, on the other hand, shouldn't have that problem at all due to being a not too story heavy video game series, but Forces in general felt like a misaimed stunt that over plays it's hand.

19 hours ago, Nestor said:

 

Rey really isn't brilliant at everything, by quite a way; while she's obviously anomalously powerful with the Force (the exploration of which is her character's main story trajectory) and a good mechanic and fighter (due to her life as a scavenger), her other skills aren't exactly top tier and she doesn't instantly excel in them.

She's a fair pilot (again due to her scavenger experience), but she still smashes the Falcon all over the place initially and has to rely on leading her opponent into terrain that she's intimately familiar with to give her an advantage.

She completely fucks up the situation with the Rathtars and almost gets everyone killed.

When confronted by Stormtroopers on Takodana, she bungles a clean shot by forgetting to take the safety off, allowing the Stormtrooper to get off his shot first, and while she takes down the first two troopers, half of those shots are way off (look closely at where one of the two shots at the second trooper lands, she's not even close).

Her first fight with Kylo Ren involves her running away from him terrified and completely unable to touch him while he casually shuts her down with the Force, begins to Mind Rape her then knocks her unconscious.

Her second fight with Ren has her being knocked unconscious by him in seconds.

And when she finally regains consciousness and faces him again, he continually dominates her and forces her back until she's on the edge of a cliff, despite the fact that Ren at this point is literally punching his own wounds to stave off unconsciousness from the gaping hole in his abdomen he's bleeding out from for the last 15 minutes, Rey only besting him when she finally taps into the Force.

Her plan of recruiting Luke to help the Resistance is a bust.

She embarrasses herself at the start of her Jedi training by 'reaching out' literally, then makes a mental beeline straight into the dark side nexus to Luke's horror. Then stupidly sticks her head into it against his prior advice. She also incidentally pisses the frog person custodians off something chronic.

She's manipulated by both Ren and Snoke through the Force bond, falling for Snoke's plan hook line and sinker. When she faces him, she's entirely helpless against him and only survives due to Ren's betrayal. She then tries to turn Ben, and fails.

.....

She may be able to pull off some decent Force skills (and even some of those are slightly iffy; the Mind Trick that she tries after learning that she can influence minds from instinctively pushing back against Ren fails multiple times initially), but the idea that she's instantly flawless or the best at everything she does isn't really true.

I'm also a bit scratching my head at the "Everyone loves Rey" bit; her peers on Jakku aren't exactly back-slapping buddies with her, Luke isn't all over her and the frog-person custodians on Anch-To despise her. Han warms to her due to her mechanical skills and interest in the Falcon, while Finn forms a bond with her due to her being the only person actively helping him on Jakku. Is this any different from Luke, really? Han is wary of him but quickly warms up, and the Rebellion immediately welcomes him with open arms.

Huh.

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9 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

Starting with Force Awakens, it was more the villains that bothered me than the heroes. 

 

Oh really now?

9 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

 

And the First Order was garbage. They lost and retreated from every on-screen battle against the "Resistance" in Force Awakens. Their red-headed general screamed like a shrill child. And all they had was their superweapon... when they destroyed "the Republic", it felt more like a terrorist group getting lucky with a dirty bomb, and not like a military power.

 

I mean, that's essentially what they are.

 

9 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

 

Add to that, the whole setup of "the Republic" and "the Resistance" sounds like third grader fanfiction. That "Republic" was just a pinata to be popped. You can call Episode I politics boring, but at least their worldbuilding was something that could be followed.

Yeah, unfortunately that's a cloud that blankets much of the sequel trilogy due to marketing and/or nostalgia: the main characters and forces that it's focused on are inherently offbrand versions of iconic elements of the Original. Which means it's actually extra difficult to get people behind you when you're actively inviting people to compare the "new" stuff with legacy.

It should say something that the most well received characters are either carryovers from the original and BB-8. Not that characters like Kylo-Ren and Finn didn't have their intrigue, but they also have their divisiveness and missteps.

And on the politics, another small issue is them trying to hard to avert criticisms. Which normally isn't a bad thing, but it's entirely possible for one to overcorrect an issue. The Last Jedi also displays this.

8 hours ago, Plasme said:

I do think the First Order are generally awful villains, but it's not like the Empire in the original trilogy are any better. Bobba Fett is cool but a joke, Peter Cushing is a great actor but his character dies a humiliating death and the stormtroopers are notoriously useless.

The difference is that those in the originals got to enjoy some level of mystique and composure, to say nothing of helping set the stage in the first place.

By contrast, Phasma and Hux leave less of an impact in both effectiveness and design.

 

6 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

 And really, if you don't want to accuse critics of sexism, maybe give General Purple-hair a uniform instead of a dinner dress.

 

Admiral Holdo.

She was actually supposed to be wearing one in concept art, but I guess they wanted her to be more visually striking. 

3 hours ago, Plasme said:

 

The fact Kylo is weak and vulnerable is what makes him a compelling antagonist.

Yes, but it's polarizing taste.

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On the subject on villains and who was better than what, IMHO, most every Star Wars villain in the films that isn't Darth Vader or even Sheev all had the same issue where they were all seemed hyped up before and then go out with a whimper.

 

  • Boba Fett: Hyped in one (two as of ANH's special edition) film despite doing no fighting - gets killed right as he finally gets the chance to.
     
  • Darth Maul: First Sith lord seen by the Jedi for a while, has a double edge saber, kills Obi-Wan's mentor, nearly kills him - spends too much time silently gloating instead of pushing Obi Wan off already, giving him the chance to jump back up.
     
  • Jango Fett:  Did better than his son. First battle- Narrowly escaped a Jedi. Second battle- Cool dubstep bombs, came close to destroying Obi Wan's ship. Third battle- Shoots one Jedi to defend Dooku, gets run over by a space rhino, beheaded by a more professional Jedi. 
     
  • Count Dooku: Can also shoot lightning, defeated two Jedi in combat, escaped from another tougher Jedi - Beheaded in the first act of the next movie.
     
  • General Grievous: Original Clone Wars- Slaughtered several Jedi within his first appearance alone. ROTS- COUGH, HACK, HACK, GENERAL KENOBI, gets shot in the heart and blew up.
     
  • Captain Phasma: Hyped as the next Boba Fett- Did no fighting and is quickly disposed of in TFA, Show up late in TLJ to do some fighting with Finn, then dies for real moments later.
     
  • Snoke: Hyped up as the next Darth Sidious, turned Ben to the Dark, Speculated to be Darth Plague and/or the greater evil than Palpatine - Gets chopped in half by his own trainee, Hijacked by Ganon Kylo and Palpatine.

 

This is the part where you come to me and say "Well, (X) was made a lot better in the TV Shows/Novels/Games!" And there's the thing. Theses villians needing to rely on media outside the films to make them look good again. Because the movies by themselves don't matter, right?

Why do you think they make Darth Maul to actually be not dead and a part robot, get a brother, turn against Sidious, and somehow manage to live for so long he actually stuck around for even the Empire Age? Because the fans wanted to see more Maul, that's why! And all that could've mostly been avoided if he had just been written better in the film in the first place.

 

I apologize if I'm just shooting my mouth off here. In Star War's defense, most of their villains are still way better than every Sonic villain that's not Eggman or Metal.  

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11 hours ago, SupahBerry said:

On the subject on villains and who was better than what, IMHO, most every Star Wars villain in the films that isn't Darth Vader or even Sheev all had the same issue where they were all seemed hyped up before and then go out with a whimper.

 

  • Boba Fett: Hyped in one (two as of ANH's special edition) film despite doing no fighting - gets killed right as he finally gets the chance to.
     
  • Darth Maul: First Sith lord seen by the Jedi for a while, has a double edge saber, kills Obi-Wan's mentor, nearly kills him - spends too much time silently gloating instead of pushing Obi Wan off already, giving him the chance to jump back up.
     
  • Jango Fett:  Did better than his son. First battle- Narrowly escaped a Jedi. Second battle- Cool dubstep bombs, came close to destroying Obi Wan's ship. Third battle- Shoots one Jedi to defend Dooku, gets run over by a space rhino, beheaded by a more professional Jedi. 
     
  • Count Dooku: Can also shoot lightning, defeated two Jedi in combat, escaped from another tougher Jedi - Beheaded in the first act of the next movie.
     
  • General Grievous: Original Clone Wars- Slaughtered several Jedi within his first appearance alone. ROTS- COUGH, HACK, HACK, GENERAL KENOBI, gets shot in the heart and blew up.
     
  • Captain Phasma: Hyped as the next Boba Fett- Did no fighting and is quickly disposed of in TFA, Show up late in TLJ to do some fighting with Finn, then dies for real moments later.
     
  • Snoke: Hyped up as the next Darth Sidious, turned Ben to the Dark, Speculated to be Darth Plague and/or the greater evil than Palpatine - Gets chopped in half by his own trainee, Hijacked by Ganon Kylo and Palpatine.

 

This is the part where you come to me and say "Well, (X) was made a lot better in the TV Shows/Novels/Games!" And there's the thing. Theses villians needing to rely on media outside the films to make them look good again. Because the movies by themselves don't matter, right?

Why do you think they make Darth Maul to actually be not dead and a part robot, get a brother, turn against Sidious, and somehow manage to live for so long he actually stuck around for even the Empire Age? Because the fans wanted to see more Maul, that's why! And all that could've mostly been avoided if he had just been written better in the film in the first place.

 

I apologize if I'm just shooting my mouth off here. In Star War's defense, most of their villains are still way better than every Sonic villain that's not Eggman or Metal.  

Just saying. Phantom Menace would've been pretty spectacular if Chewbacca had just shot Darth Maul in the ribs, then had little Anakin beat him in a lightsaber fight.

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17 hours ago, SupahBerry said:

On the subject on villains and who was better than what, IMHO, most every Star Wars villain in the films that isn't Darth Vader or even Sheev all had the same issue where they were all seemed hyped up before and then go out with a whimper.

 

  • Boba Fett: Hyped in one (two as of ANH's special edition) film despite doing no fighting - gets killed right as he finally gets the chance to.
     
  • Darth Maul: First Sith lord seen by the Jedi for a while, has a double edge saber, kills Obi-Wan's mentor, nearly kills him - spends too much time silently gloating instead of pushing Obi Wan off already, giving him the chance to jump back up.
     
  • Jango Fett:  Did better than his son. First battle- Narrowly escaped a Jedi. Second battle- Cool dubstep bombs, came close to destroying Obi Wan's ship. Third battle- Shoots one Jedi to defend Dooku, gets run over by a space rhino, beheaded by a more professional Jedi. 
     
  • Count Dooku: Can also shoot lightning, defeated two Jedi in combat, escaped from another tougher Jedi - Beheaded in the first act of the next movie.
     
  • General Grievous: Original Clone Wars- Slaughtered several Jedi within his first appearance alone. ROTS- COUGH, HACK, HACK, GENERAL KENOBI, gets shot in the heart and blew up.
     
  • Captain Phasma: Hyped as the next Boba Fett- Did no fighting and is quickly disposed of in TFA, Show up late in TLJ to do some fighting with Finn, then dies for real moments later.
     
  • Snoke: Hyped up as the next Darth Sidious, turned Ben to the Dark, Speculated to be Darth Plague and/or the greater evil than Palpatine - Gets chopped in half by his own trainee, Hijacked by Ganon Kylo and Palpatine.

 

 

So how would you rank them then?

17 hours ago, SupahBerry said:

 

This is the part where you come to me and say "Well, (X) was made a lot better in the TV Shows/Novels/Games!" And there's the thing. Theses villians needing to rely on media outside the films to make them look good again. Because the movies by themselves don't matter, right?

 

I think this is a good time to point out that this is where movies can falter whereas other media prosper: everything has to be in a neat, conveniently paced package. That's not to say it isn't possible to work around those constraints, but there is indeed a deadline involved.

Though in a contextual sense, yes to answer your last question. 

17 hours ago, SupahBerry said:

 

Why do you think they make Darth Maul to actually be not dead and a part robot, get a brother, turn against Sidious, and somehow manage to live for so long he actually stuck around for even the Empire Age? Because the fans wanted to see more Maul, that's why! And all that could've mostly been avoided if he had just been written better in the film in the first place.

 

To be fair on Maul, those are technically two different things. Fans generally want to see more of anything they find cool and it just so happens that what happened to Maul(and arguably Boba Fett) left the door open for not only more appearances, but also ones subsequent to his defeat.

Plus he and Dooku come the closest to subverting the issue anyway given how they have an entire fight scene under their belt, which involves taking out a Jedi Master and lasting long enough to lead an entire war effort for a bulk of its duration, respectively.

17 hours ago, SupahBerry said:

 

I apologize if I'm just shooting my mouth off here. In Star War's defense, most of their villains are still way better than every Sonic villain that's not Eggman or Metal.  

Oh? How so?

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