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Miragnarok

The Return of Hiroshi Nishiyama

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11 minutes ago, Jango said:

Moooooorio Kishimoto, not Miyamoto, that's who I meant.

I mean c'mon, Iizuka? Don't even you think he needs a rest? He was the director for SA and SA2, Heroes... But wasn't Yuji Naka the godfather of these games? AFAIK a producer has plenty of control over a movie at least, not sure games. I don't know, I feel like Iizuka just kinda signs his name on the paper, but he doesn't influence the game all that much, being for good or bad. Producers, game designers, even writers end up having more control than the game's director, what least it feels like in my vision.

 

... Haven't you heard that Iizuka almost DIED doing Heroes?

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36 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Game-play wise.

The rest is fair ball.

I guess? But we're talking about a game here, one that prioritises gameplay above all else. Colours doesn't set out to make an experience or tell a story. Plus it's not really the subject of this discussion.

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1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

Game-play wise.

The rest is fair ball.

Gameplay is kind of the key thing when you play a game, so that's a pretty significant factor.

50 minutes ago, Jango said:

I don't buy the "Mania wouldn't be what it was without Iizuka" talk. Seriously, imagine if Iizuka didn't green lit Mania when Taxman proposed him... He would have to be really freaking dense not to. Guy remakes 3 classic games, add new stuff to all of them, improve literaly everything, sells a lot and get great reviews, and you're not gonna trust him a brand new game? C'mon.

Good grief, really? You try pitching anything to the CEO of a company and see how confident you are that they'll roll with it. Sonic Mania was originally going to be four Zones with the mobile remasters of Sonic 1 and 2 packed in. Iizuka-san is the one who encouraged the Mania development team to turn it into a full blown adventure. 

Quote

Sure the "idea" of making it a fullgame was his, but that's likely something Taxman obviously had in mind, he just wasn't sure if he would be able to go that far yet, so he aimed short to see what the reaction would be. 

You're making an assumption here, and you should know that doesn't fly in these sorts of discussions.

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One important thing to note is that Christian Whitehead and Simon Thomley both have gone on record to state that they ultimately supported Iizuka's decision regarding Mania. As Indigo pointed out, the game was originally just gonna be 4 stages with the Sonic 1 and 2 remasters bundled in. Would you really, honestly rather have that? I wouldn't.

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23 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Gameplay is kind of the key thing when you play a game, so that's a pretty significant factor.

If being in this fandom has taught me anything it's that you don't play games you just worry about if a Blue rat with super speed is serious enough and also cries.

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59 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Gameplay is kind of the key thing when you play a game, so that's a pretty significant factor.

Good grief, really? You try pitching anything to the CEO of a company and see how confident you are that they'll roll with it. Sonic Mania was originally going to be four Zones with the mobile remasters of Sonic 1 and 2 packed in. Iizuka-san is the one who encouraged the Mania development team to turn it into a full blown adventure. 

You're making an assumption here, and you should know that doesn't fly in these sorts of discussions.

Christian pitched Sonic CD on Twitter. He literaly called out SEGA's bullshit ports. He then proceeded to remake it, and later remade Sonic 1 and 2, because it's obvious that he has talent. If Iizuka couldn't see that by his own, dear Lord he's incredibly insecure or just plain dumb. Anyone on his place would be dreaming of the moment Christian would call and pitch a new classic game. Assumption is thinking Mania wouldn't happen because of Iizuka and give him credit for making an obvious decision. Saying yes to a classic game by Taxman at that point in 2016 (when EVERYBODY was asking for it) should be almost a reflex. "-I want to make a new classic ga... -YES". It's like: "-You want money?".

Also, Mania was basically 4 new zones and zones from the classic games... So the original pitch didn't chaaaanged all that much if you think about it. Besides, the idea of giving the old zones a new twist was all his (Taxman) AFAIK. You know what would ACTUALLY make Iizuka's imput relevant and make me respect him? If he had the balls to say: "-No, let's make ALL NEW ZONES. Fuck rehashing stuff, we've being doing this for years now, it didn't worked. I believe in this, it's going to turn out great". But he even said in an interview that he was affraid and unsure about Mania's success... I ask you... HOW? Oh, because Forces looked so much better and no one was complaining, right? Yeah, that one inspired confidence... Yeah. Not the game by the guy who just release 3 excellent remakes of classic games.

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1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

I guess? But we're talking about a game here, one that prioritises gameplay above all else. Colours doesn't set out to make an experience or tell a story. Plus it's not really the subject of this discussion.

It's overrated game-play wise...it was semi-agreement, as every other part of the game seems to have soured to people over time.

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2 hours ago, SBR2 said:

If being in this fandom has taught me anything it's that you don't play games you just worry about if a Blue rat with super speed is serious enough and also cries.

Yes, the gameplay can make up for the lack of that. But it's rarely actually done so. Colors was good the first playthrough but "Baldy McNosehair!" was enough to curtail a replay.

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48 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Yes, the gameplay can make up for the lack of that. But it's rarely actually done so. Colors was good the first playthrough but "Baldy McNosehair!" was enough to curtail a replay.

UGH!  I'm so sick of people talking about this gag! It isn't even that bad. What is the problem with "Baldy Nosehair"?

Quote

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

  2 hour

Basically just that people care more about Sonic being dramatic than if the games fun to play. See the last post I quoted sayingthat a joke was enough to keep them from wanting to play Colors again.

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3 hours ago, SBR2 said:

If being in this fandom has taught me anything it's that you don't play games you just worry about if a Blue rat with super speed is serious enough and also cries.

 

23 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

UGH!  I'm so sick of people talking about this gag! It isn't even that bad. What is the problem with "Baldy Nosehair"?

 

Any time you want to knock off this annoying complaining about complaining and try actually participating in the discussion, feel free.

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4 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Alright, I'm about to flip a table. 

FlipTable.jpg

There's a significant difference between a compilation pack with a small game and an entire 12 Zone campaign with new features, Jango. I'm getting tired of the assumption that the rehashing of levels is something that Iizuka-san wanted but Whitehead and company didn't want; it's discouraging to know that a majority of people haven't considered that Sonic Mania would never have been as fully-featured if every Zone was original. While that might be considered the ideal situation to the more hardcore of Sonic fans, that is certainly not what the team had in mind; this was never stated, and and I'd love it if people dropped that presupposition.

Quite frankly, you should respect Iizuka-san for putting up with a seemingly endless barrage of mindless cries for Sonic Adventure 3 and the vitriol for supporting the decision to use familiar locations and iconography from when the series was at it's most popular as if he's a nasty villain trying to sabotage the franchise, as opposed to waiting for him to cater to whatever concept you've canonized as the "right" direction for the series as most Sonic fanboys tend to do. There's biting the hand that feeds you, then there's disrespect. Do you want to pin blame on someone? Stop turning one single person into a bogey-man and take the time and effort to research on who's working in what area of each game, and you might come to find that it's not as black-and-white as blaming the person at the top of the pyramid; and even Iizuka-san has to answer to someone, but no one seems to think beyond Sonic Team when it comes to these thought experiments.

His ambiguity of Mania's success has less to do regarding his faith in the concept or the team, and moreso on whether or not there was a demand for such a product, and because Sega had never hired a bunch of fans to make a game before to this extent. Of course he'd be a little nervous, especially after outsourcing things to Big Red Button. It's a miracle that Mania got the greenlight after Sonic Boom. Lastly, I'm not sure why you're bringing Sonic Forces into the discussion as if it's helping your point, which from my current comprehension seems to boil down to "I hate Iizuka because he doesn't make what I want," so pardon me if I'm having a difficult time seeing your perspective.

I'm not going to participate in the shaming and disrespect of one man when he's not responsible for everything that's gone wrong with the franchise, as if his positive influence and consistency behind the brand hasn't been part and parcel to it's return to a generally positive critical acclaim since 2010, even after Boom happened. I don't care for Colors, for example, but I can't deny the influence it's had in bringing the Sonic brand into a better place regarding it's perception by the general public. And so this continues with games like Mania, where only pockets of biased Sonic fanboys with an axe to grind care that many of the levels are based off of places they've been before. 

Game design is a complicated, misunderstood and difficult industry to participate in, and after befriending people in the industry and listening to their stories and frustrations, I'll never complain about the way these things turn out, the way people like you do, ever again, because it's a complicated galaxy of people from different backgrounds, opinions, talents coming together to create a product that may never turn out the way they envisioned. Most Sonic fans have no idea what Sonic Mania's development process was like, even when we have a smorgasbord of interviews and accounts from people in the community to give us intel on the matter. 

 

C'mon Indy, no need for that table fliping rage comic, you know me for years on this forum, you're reacting as if I'm a troll or something. You're free to have your opinion on Iizuka and his management of the Sonic brand as much as I am. I didn't presented my thoughts like "lol Iizuka sucks lmao", I'm just seeing from a different perception. My perception is that the things you said Iizuka did right like handling the "mindless cries for SA3", "using iconic locations from the golden era" and "giving the go to Sonic Mania" are just normal stuff, nothing special. You even say I should respect him for keeping the consistency of the brand...? Which consistency? Every game is a new thing. Throw away the boost formula ~ bring back the boost formula. Saturday morning plot ~ "Sonic was held prisoner and tortured for months" plot. He has also contradicted himself many times too, or do you forgot about the "Classic Sonic was a 1 time thing for the 20th anniversary celebration"? I've tried, but I simply can't respect him when he come up with things like this. Oh, he is consistent with one thing he said: Wisps in every game since Colors. I'm sure eeeeeeeverybody love these!

You said it's a miracle Sonic Mania happened after Sonic Boom, I just think the opposite. It's miracle to me that Boom happened in the first place. He decided to allow a novice studio make a Sonic game with: different designs; different gameplay; different lore; different tone. And exclusive to one console. If Boom failed, that's totally on SEGA and Sonic Team. I've never seen a brand do this to their flagship IP. It's really bold, or extremely naive. The majority of people looked at Boom with bad eyes even before the designs were fully revealed. It was just waiting to fail. How can you say it's a miracle that Mania happened and Iizuka was on his right to be unsure about it when he: 1. He directed Sonic 4, which was pivotal to make the fans more and more vocal about their desire for a new classic game with all new zones and classic physics after so many rehashes and poor attempts; 2. He brought back the Classic Sonic persona with Generations which got praises, but made fans even more anxious for a 2D game with the right physics; 3. The man doing Sonic Mania had a recent history of 3 extremely succesfull remakes and approval and years of respect from the Sonic community, to the point of people loosing their minds just by seeing his name and logo before the Sonic Mania reveal trailer at the event. I literally can't see what's so hard or special about giving support to the Mania project when it was literally exactly what many, many people had been asking for years. It was a logical decision for Iizuka and SEGA. The real miracle is the fact that it took them so long to realise where the money was.

You're not going to participate in the shaming and disrespect of one man? Of course not, there isn't any here. At least no from me. Oh, and you say SEGA have never hired a "bunch of fans to make their games before". Now that's one notion I would like people to drop. Sonic Mania was made by fans indeed, but it's not a fan game. The guys that worked on Mania weren't random fans pulled from Sonic forums on the internet, Christian himself worked for SEGA 3 times before, Pagoda West Games did commercial games before Mania too. They are professionals. Man, I would LOVE if the current Sonic Team was at least 1% fans of Sonic as these people are.

The way I see it, Iizuka isn't a bad person by no means, he's just a weak manager, who while not playing safe, made some arguibly questionable calls over the years instead of siting down and making a long term plan for the franchise and NOT rethinking the formula every new game and allowing things like Sonic Boom in the first place. That's what I was trying to say.

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I’m rather excited about the plausibility of additional Adventure alumni also arriving at America’s austere Sonic Team. Also, why stop at Adventure staff? Could we get people like Chris Senn on board? But again, whatever happened to Sega’s work with Alex Hirsch?

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I won't pretend to know what the man's influence will contribute now, some 15 years later, or even if he'll be allowed a heavy influence. I know they've been doing some reconstructing and reconfiguring and recombobulation over there but whether this was something significant done to help get things back on track or something that just... kind of "happened" is yet to be seen. 

Despite the amount of genuine passion (and I'm gonna use that overused PR word here) that Iizuka has, he's proven not to be the best when it comes to... expressing things he wishes to do and say to us, the audience. The man does get a heep of blame for things that he sometimes didn't say or didn't do but the stuff that's been confirmed to come out of his mouth is often bad enough that it makes it hard for anyone to care about how he genuinely does like the series sometimes. And even forget the amount of good he's done. 

I'm certain the weird statement about putting Shadow in Forces to make the Adventure fans happy didn't go over so well. This two worlds thing for Modern Sonic makes no sense, hasn't been brought up in any of the games, and will probably continue to not be brought up in any future ones as well. He really might as well not said anything about it.

I remember people freaking out when it was reported he said the Werehog was definitely coming back. That didn't happen. He said the same thing about the wisps. That did happen and it continues to do so, much to my disdain, as I miss the item boxes quite a bit. He said Big was going to be on the backburner for a while and that caused people to think he was being scrapped... that didn't happen. It probably would have had he not been made into a meme, so, who can say?

Obviously, the man is allowed to change his mind but so often it does feel like he just "says things" without really thinking through the implications a bit too much. There are situations where he's been misquoted and blamed for things he didn't say but shit is so fucked it's hard to tell when it happens now. 

I have no ill will towards the man but he's not exactly Miyamoto, if that's an apt comparison. Perhaps it really is best he take a break. Or maybe he needs someone to help advice him a bit better. I dunno. Maybe all of Sonic Team needs to take a break. I'm walking on egg-shells here and choosing my words as carefully as I can since I really DON'T KNOW how things work over there. I don't want to sound like I've got this all in the bag but I bring this all up to point out that it does largely come back to the man in charge and how he decides to move forward, regardless of whoever gets hired back. 

Topics like these are hard to contribute to when you know so little about the process for making games. Often people's perception is limited to what a person says and that's it. So that's all I feel comfortable referencing. And even then my memory might be faulty.

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1 hour ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I won't pretend to know what the man's influence will contribute now, some 15 years later, or even if he'll be allowed a heavy influence. I know they've been doing some reconstructing and reconfiguring and recombobulation over there but whether this was something significant done to help get things back on track or something that just... kind of "happened" is yet to be seen. 

Despite the amount of genuine passion (and I'm gonna use that overused PR word here) that Iizuka has, he's proven not to be the best when it comes to... expressing things he wishes to do and say to us, the audience. The man does get a heep of blame for things that he sometimes didn't say or didn't do but the stuff that's been confirmed to come out of his mouth is often bad enough that it makes it hard for anyone to care about how he genuinely does like the series sometimes. And even forget the amount of good he's done. 

I'm certain the weird statement about putting Shadow in Forces to make the Adventure fans happy didn't go over so well. This two worlds thing for Modern Sonic makes no sense, hasn't been brought up in any of the games, and will probably continue to not be brought up in any future ones as well. He really might as well not said anything about it.

I remember people freaking out when it was reported he said the Werehog was definitely coming back. That didn't happen. He said the same thing about the wisps. That did happen and it continues to do so, much to my disdain, as I miss the item boxes quite a bit. He said Big was going to be on the backburner for a while and that caused people to think he was being scrapped... that didn't happen. It probably would have had he not been made into a meme, so, who can say?

Obviously, the man is allowed to change his mind but so often it does feel like he just "says things" without really thinking through the implications a bit too much. There are situations where he's been misquoted and blamed for things he didn't say but shit is so fucked it's hard to tell when it happens now. 

I have no ill will towards the man but he's not exactly Miyamoto, if that's an apt comparison. Perhaps it really is best he take a break. Or maybe he needs someone to help advice him a bit better. I dunno. Maybe all of Sonic Team needs to take a break. I'm walking on egg-shells here and choosing my words as carefully as I can since I really DON'T KNOW how things work over there. I don't want to sound like I've got this all in the bag but I bring this all up to point out that it does largely come back to the man in charge and how he decides to move forward, regardless of whoever gets hired back. 

Topics like these are hard to contribute to when you know so little about the process for making games. Often people's perception is limited to what a person says and that's it. So that's all I feel comfortable referencing. And even then my memory might be faulty.

Yeah, once again, remember "individual bubbles" from 2013? Did that matter at all? Everyone will just have to wait and see for more details.

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1 hour ago, Miragnarok said:

Yeah, once again, remember "individual bubbles" from 2013? Did that matter at all? Everyone will just have to wait and see for more details.

Yeah.

It's tough. Everyone is really on edge, angry, upset, sad, and frustrated with the state of the series right now. Having SEGA and Sonic Team to blame is absolutely fair and understandable but some do tend to take things a bit further and are looking for any one individual to find at fault for all their grievances. It can sometimes be hard to keep from becoming part of the mob that just sees Iizuka as this machiavellian super villain when all they really know about the guy is that he's the head of "Sonic Team". It's hard to even see that as meaning anything at this point.

A lot of this comes down to your perception of things and how they've been going lately. Someone like me whose all but given up all hope but at the same time is still grateful for the good things that do come out as a result of the situation we're in has often found themselves very conflicted. Would the comics be happening if the management was different? Would those awesome shorts on their Youtube channel exist is things were different? Would Rise of Lyric had been farmed out to someone else? Would it have been worse? 

Then you think about the good stuff and how it appeals to you as an individual. 

I really don't like Sonic Colors and Sonic Mania isn't a game that appeals to me. However, the positive push the series got from them saw some life come back into the fold of things... and yet it doesn't feel like it on the whole. Sonic's still a joke. Everyone still says that the series has been nothing but crap for 25 years. Whenever he does something good, it NEVER sticks with people because right around the corner is something shitty. It's an up and down roller-coaster that's being treated as though it's only just a bunch of bad things. I'm not the only one who's noticed that too. 

I remember when Jim Sterling said "Sonic Mania was so good it made the people who forgot Sonic Generations happened say that Sonic was good again". 

He's right.

People just... forget that anything good happened as soon as something shitty comes along. The amount of times I've heard people say "Sonic is back!" and "Sonic is saved" versus how many times after that I hear "Sonic has always been shit" is just ridiculous. You'd think people would cut their losses and just admit to the up and down, inconsistent nature of the series and it's quality.

Sonic is incredibly inconsistent. It's so inconsistent that it can't even be consistently bad. 

Now a lot of that has to do with what you care about the most in a series. I, for example, care the most about the story, characters, and good 3D and... that ain't something I got from Colors and Generations. 

I do largely just want things to be all around good again. I want the 3D games to be 3D again and I'd like for the 2D games to continue to please people. 

Can Mr. Hiroshi Nishiyama help with that? Maybe.

I hope so. I'm at the point to where I'm willing to latch onto anything positive right now. After Forces, I feel like I've been nothing but extremely bitter about everything.

 

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3 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

 Also, why stop at Adventure staff? Could we get people like Chris Senn on board?

Not to make light of the situation... but the dude almost died while working on Xtreme (canned) and then made his return to Sonic with Rise of Lyric (should have been canned).

At what point do you just bow out to the ominous clouds that follow you around? His last two swings with the franchise couldn't have left a good taste in his mouth.

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Regarding Chris Senn, here's his resume, from Sonic Retro:

Maybe he's not a bad guy, and maybe he's not the curse of all games, (Comix Zone is pretty cool), but to my knowledge neither of these games beyond that were received especially well. So, I dunno if he's the best pick.

senn.JPG

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This isn't complaining about complaining ok. Just putting that out there so this post won't be ignored.

So I was thinking for all the talk about a Sonic Adventure artist coming back how many people working for Sonic Team didn't also work on Sonic Adventure? Because most of the time when I see credits a good chunk of Sonic Team now was Sonic Team then.

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20 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Not to make light of the situation... but the dude almost died while working on Xtreme (canned) and then made his return to Sonic with Rise of Lyric (should have been canned).

At what point do you just bow out to the ominous clouds that follow you around? His last two swings with the franchise couldn't have left a good taste in his mouth.

Yeah X-Treme’s developers are likely a no-no due to what happened with it. 

 

Well then, what about Mark Cerny? 

 

He was an art director for Sonic 2. Would be interesting to see him back.

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10 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Yeah X-Treme’s developers are likely a no-no due to what happened with it. 

 

Well then, what about Mark Cerny? 

 

He was an art director for Sonic 2. Would be interesting to see him back.

Mark Cerny is making far more at PlayStation than he ever would at SEGA. Man’s making the PS5. He’d never go back. 

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On 4/17/2019 at 7:06 AM, SBR2 said:

Cool. I guess. Not sure why ditching a decent formula to go back to Adventure style would automatically be a good thing but whatever. Also find it kinda funny the same people that complain about Sega pandering to classic nostalgia are perfectly ok if they started pandering to Adventure nostalgia.

Anyway I can't wait for it to play more like Shadow or Sonic Heroes and everyone will declare Sonic dead. Again.

Or worse, a faster Rise of Lyric or parkour-less, all-3D Lost World. Yeah, I get the whole “Why don’t they pander to MY nostalgia” deal, which would work at first, but increasingly backfire the more they continue with it, just like with the original nostalgia pandering of the series 

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4 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Or worse, a faster Rise of Lyric or parkour-less, all-3D Lost World. Yeah, I get the whole “Why don’t they pander to MY nostalgia” deal, which would work at first, but increasingly backfire the more they continue with it, just like with the original nostalgia pandering of the series 

Honestly watching an LP of Lost World including the Zelda DLC if they did a game in the style of the Zelda DLC's overworld it might work pretty well. 

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