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Marco9966

What is exactly the Storybooks's games continuity with the main games??

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7 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

You say that like "simple wish granting" can't have game changing consequences. Even something as small as making a mountain of hankercheifs out of thin air - materializing something from nothing - has some pretty extreme possibilities. Even minor magic has the potential to break narratives.

If you treat stories like simulations, maybe. But when Shahra says she can only grant simple wishes, that's the story telling you that she can only use her powers to solve simple problems. You can't logic out "oh she can create this much mass in tissues, so she could create a nuke of equivalent mass and drop it on Eggman" or whatever.

7 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Even just looking at what she can already do, transcending reality to pull Sonic into a book, Speed Break and Time Break all would be utterly busted fuckface cards to have in your back pocket. Let alone the wish granting.

Shadow can teleport and slow time, I don't see how Speed/Time Break or jumping into a book are any more significant than that. And again, simple wishes only solve simple problems.

7 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Its also worth noting that Sonic was able to tap into the power of at least 3 of the world rings with no sacrifice, so there is that too.

I mean. There was a sacrifice there. The wrong sacrifice, so the whole ritual went wrong, and the Darkspine thing just sort of happened without him intending to do it.

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If it doesn't break anything, I don't see the harm in considering it canon. I already do and it hasn't ruined anything.

If anything, Sonic continuously referencing Secret Rings in other media kind of helps string that idea along. 

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1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

If you treat stories like simulations, maybe. But when Shahra says she can only grant simple wishes, that's the story telling you that she can only use her powers to solve simple problems. You can't logic out "oh she can create this much mass in tissues, so she could create a nuke of equivalent mass and drop it on Eggman" or whatever.

Forget the mass. What I'm saying it that simple wish's still have the potential to break things. 

Eggman hiding behind a locked door? I wish I had a key. *poof*

Lacking raw materials to build ships? Guess who can fix that *poof*

Fate of the free world depending on buying Sonic a few extra seconds while you anylise the situation? "How about a time break?" *POOF*

 

Shahra doesn't have to move heaven and earth for her powers to have a disruptive impact on basic narrative. Even by accomplishing tiny micro-miracles, she breaks near every kind of obstacle you can put in the way to slow the heroes down over the course of a story.

and speaking of moving heaven and earth...

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Shadow can teleport and slow time, I don't see how Speed/Time Break or jumping into a book are any more significant than that. And again, simple wishes only solve simple problems.

If her level of simple power allows her the ability to manipulate the flow of spacetime as a casual party trick then that is not something to take lightly. And if she is capable of granting a wish to slow down time then that really paints a picture to the extent of her powers. Thats not insignificant.

 

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

I mean. There was a sacrifice there. The wrong sacrifice, so the whole ritual went wrong, and the Darkspine thing just sort of happened without him intending to do it.

Each of the individual world rings were also able to be used w/o a sacrifice.

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5 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Forget the mass. What I'm saying it that simple wish's still have the potential to break things. 

Eggman hiding behind a locked door? I wish I had a key. *poof*

Lacking raw materials to build ships? Guess who can fix that *poof*

Fate of the free world depending on buying Sonic a few extra seconds while you anylise the situation? "How about a time break?" *POOF*

 

Shahra doesn't have to move heaven and earth for her powers to have a disruptive impact on basic narrative. Even by accomplishing tiny micro-miracles, she breaks near every kind of obstacle you can put in the way to slow the heroes down over the course of a story.

Ah yes that ultimate game-breaking narrative-shattering skill of "opening a door". I remember all the long struggles that Sonic has gone through in order to open ordinary locked doors.

Look, dude. If they ever had Shahra show up in another game, all they'd do is have obstacles more complicated than a padlock for the heroes to overcome.

5 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

and speaking of moving heaven and earth...

If her level of simple power allows her the ability to manipulate the flow of spacetime as a casual party trick then that is not something to take lightly. And if she is capable of granting a wish to slow down time then that really paints a picture to the extent of her powers. Thats not insignificant.

Again: this already existed in the series. Chaos Control is a thing. Shahra being able to grant a similar power to Sonic is not some huge game-changer. This is the level of power that the series already operated on.

5 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Each of the individual world rings were also able to be used w/o a sacrifice.

When is a single ring used to accomplish anything of any value?

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13 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Ah yes that ultimate game-breaking narrative-shattering skill of "opening a door". I remember all the long struggles that Sonic has gone through in order to open ordinary locked doors.

Look, dude. If they ever had Shahra show up in another game, all they'd do is have obstacles more complicated than a padlock for the heroes to overcome.

*cough* GaiaGates *cough*

Seriously though, many complex huge problems are solved by chaining together numerous minor feats.

You can apply that logic to almost anything. If there is something big and complicated barring the heroes from accomplishing their goals, there is likely a series of easy, un-extraordinary wishes that can be chained together to accomplish and overcome that barrier. And it doesn't hurt to have bonnafide super-genius sitting right there to figure this crap out for you.

 

13 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Again: this already existed in the series. Chaos Control is a thing. Shahra being able to grant a similar power to Sonic is not some huge game-changer. This is the level of power that the series already operated on.

Chaos Control is limited in availability to everyone but Shadow - so the narrative doesn't suffer because he largely hasn't been a part of it. For example Chaos Control is inconsequential to the narrative while Sonic was busy getting brow beat by Infinite, but a certain genie would have easily been able to step in and save his tail.

And lets not dodge the implication here. Shahra is not a one trick pony. Her magic can do a lot of things. If time manipulation is indicative to her power level, than she should be capable of leveraging her magic in other, similarly impressive ways.

 

13 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

When is a single ring used to accomplish anything of any value?

The Ifrit Golem was 100% invincible on the first encounter. Sonic had to backtrack and acquire the Blue World Ring in order to use its storm powers to douse its flames and render it vulnerable. Sinbad also said he used the ring to control storms and summon rain.

 

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7 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Giving Sonic access to a genie that he can whip out of his back pocket makes these stories very consequential.

Alf-Laya-Al-Waya can full on grant life and had the goal of crossing over and conquering the real world - meaning his powers would have most likely be intact when he hakes the jump. If Sonic can summon Sharaha at will... doesn't that kind of break any potential narrative? Anything and everything can be fixed via wish.

I think Sonic freed Shahra and tossed Erazor's lamp into a volcano. 

7 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Giving Sonic access to a genie that he can whip out of his back pocket makes these stories very consequential.

Alf-Laya-Al-Waya can full on grant life and had the goal of crossing over and conquering the real world - meaning his powers would have most likely be intact when he hakes the jump. If Sonic can summon Sharaha at will... doesn't that kind of break any potential narrative? Anything and everything can be fixed via wish.

I think Sonic freed Shahra and tossed Erazor's lamp into a volcano. 

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I consider both 'Secret Rings' and 'black Kinight' as main series games as they were big console releases back in '07 and '09. Also , Secret Rings is referenced by Sonic at the beginning of 'Generations' which is widely considered main series material. 

To be honest though, where does this sort of discussion end? Take a look at Mania - definitely a "main" Sonic title right?  There's so many references to old games in that its crazy from the obvious Sonic 1+2 etc.... to real obscurities like Mean Bean Machine , Spinball ,Knuckles Chaotix, the 8-bit family of games......... So, to almost counter my own statement above , because they are referenced in that "main" title does THAT make them a MAIN game?

What does constitute as a "main" title?

I'm going for a lie down.

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