Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom

[Shade Vortex]

@Blue BloodI could be remembering wrong, but... BoTW and SS never implied Hylia created Hyrule? My understanding was that Hylia was the chosen protector of the Triforce (that the Golden Goddesses created after creating the world, which would eventually become known as Hyrule after SS Link and Zelda lay the foundations for their Kingdom, which they name after Hylia- but the world wasn't made by them). Sure, they're said to have bestowed the Triforce to the people of Hyrule as well, but even if they bestowed it to Hylia who then bestowed it upon the people, it kind of amounts to the same thing, since Hylia was a servant of the Golden Goddesses too.

The timeline is definitely confusing when you try to split it into the three timelines the HH has, or really, no matter how you split it. I don't really care how it all "fits together" since it'll never do so seamlessly, but I do enjoy lore, so these games should still try to share connections with each other in my mind, so as long as they do that, I'll be happy.

There's definitely some hopes/wants I have for BOTW2, but one thing I'm certain that's staying is the durability system, for better or worse.

[Blue Blood]

@Shade Vortex Oh yes, you're right about that. I was getting mixed up. Still though, the role of Hylia is weird because she's absent from every game except SS and BotW, which are currently at the extreme ends of the timeline. It doesn't make much sense.

In every case except SS, the gameplay is designed first, followed by the narrative. If the overarching narrative was that important, it wouldn't be so broken. I like being able to piece parts together, but only when it's taking any leaps of logic. The other thing is the actual timescale itself. BotW talks about the Divine Beasts being made 10,000 years ago. How long ago were the other games then, and how come Hyrule is stuck in a perpetual middle age (occasionally with steam trains and a whale that dreams of telephones)? Cause it doesn't matter.

Anyway...

Speaking of this game, it's interesting that it's a direct sequel because Nintendo have never rested on one Zelda game being too similar to what came before. Each has introduced a bevy of new features and a central gimmick. Only once have we visited the same Hyrule, and that was ALBW picking up from ALttP. Makes me wonder what they'll do here. BotW is incredible, and leaves so much room for expansion.

I hope the weapon durability system returns, but with a much wider variety of weapons to use. For the most part, BotW boiled down to 1 handed, 2 handed and spears of varying power levels. Boomerangs existed, but were functionally worthless as such and you were better off just using them as swords. The windcleaver was pretty unique, as was the Korok leaf, but neither really did much useful. Elemental weapons were OP (1hit kills for fire/ice, blizzard rod was a game breaker)... So much more could be done.

The same goes for enemies. Moblins, bokoblins and lizalfos made up a good 90% of what you fought. A sequel would do well to reintroduce Gibdos, Redeads, Stalfos and various other enemies to actually fight against. Wizzrobes are borderline as to whether or not they count as combat encounters, but Octoroks, Wolves, Peblits and Guardians aren't really things that you "fight". They're obstacles which are more often that not just something you want to avoid because you've gotten tired of fighting them.  We could do with more variations there too though - Like Likes, Leevers, Tektites etc would all be welcome additions.

It's going to be ages before we see anything of this game. It's got a lot to live up to, and given the pedigree of Nintendo and Zelda games, particularly BotW itself, I've got no reason to expect that it won't expand upon everything that BotW did right, and change things out for the better. It's going to be exciting to see how it all comes together in the end.

[expansivelovestories]

1 hour ago, Shade Vortex said:

There's definitely some hopes/wants I have for BOTW2, but one thing I'm certain that's staying is the durability system, for better or worse.

Hmm!! Perhaps if there is a co~op mode (I feel like if both Zelda and Link are playable, there will also be an option to play a solo game with either) which may be possible as long as the second player's switch in handheld mode would allow them to see everything from their point of view, (it certainly would be too complicated to have both players on the same screen), Zelda would be able to eventually access a spell type that would temporarily block wear and tear on Link's equipment..!!   

[Lord-Dreamerz]

20 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Speaking of this game, it's interesting that it's a direct sequel because Nintendo have never rested on one Zelda game being too similar to what came before. Each has introduced a bevy of new features and a central gimmick. Only once have we visited the same Hyrule, and that was ALBW picking up from ALttP. Makes me wonder what they'll do here. BotW is incredible, and leaves so much room for expansion.

The Phantom Hourglass was suppose to be a direct sequel to Wind Waker despite not having the same playable locations.

[Blue Blood]

4 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

The Phantom Hourglass was suppose to be a direct sequel to Wind Waker despite not having the same playable locations.

Right... But what's your point? PH was was direct sequel to WW in much the same way that MM was a direct sequel to OoT. Both took off in new locations with completely separate plots. It looks like BotW's sequel is going to be retreading a lot of the game ground (literally), with the plot following on from before too instead of going off on an unrelated tangent ala PH and MM.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

6 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

Right... But what's your point? PH was was direct sequel to WW in much the same way that MM was a direct sequel to OoT. Both took off in new locations with completely separate plots. It looks like BotW's sequel is going to be retreading a lot of the game ground (literally), with the plot following on from before too instead of going off on an unrelated tangent ala PH and MM.

My only point is that it was a sequel which took place in the same Zelda timeline with a number of the same characters. I wasn't trying to correct the fact you were saying they have only one other time made a Zelda game where the same plot and locations continue.

On another note personally I hope they get rid of the weapon durability system for BOTW2. It was awful. At least it needs to be changed so weapons & shields are far more durable instead of everything acting as if they are made outta glass. Also a decent item repair system would go a long way to improving it, something that could be used nearly as easy as cooking.

[Wraith]

Was in the process of replaying Breath of the Wild now. Figured I'd play more before I did my obligatory checklist of things I want tweaked. I'm still playing so I'll probably do another post later on lmao. Gonna focus on combat for this one.

-Flurry Rush is the big thing that sticks out in my mind as a really lame mechanic. It's the only way Link can really fight aggressively, since leaping forward is a slow, awkward maneuver that usually ends with you getting hot. I propose giving Link a real combat roll that has invincibility frames so he can stay in the enemy's face without it cutting too much in the flow of battle.

-I have no problems with the durability system It seems people get attached to melee weapons in games like they're toys but if you think about it more like ammo it makes more sense. I think a big part of the game flow is having everything around you be useful and systems that force you to improvise instead of doing the same thing over and over are a big part of encouraging that. I just wish the inventory system was smoother to accommodate this sort of gameplay. I should be able to pick items up even if my inventory is full. Either quickly pull up a swap out menu or drop the weakest thing I'm holding automatically. 

-There are essentially 3 real weapons in Breath of the Wild which hampers the sense of discovery somewhat. Things like the magic wands, boomerangs and the elemental blades are cool but there needs to be more variety in terms of what kinds of attacks Link can use. The easiest way to do this would be to create more subclasses, like daggers, twin blades, the ball and chain, a crossbow, etc. 

-More enemy variety is the big, obvious addition that I expect to go through. I'm sure the original game had more enemies that were cut due to time constraints. Like-Likes and Wolfos behaviors are imitated by things like the Octoroks and the actual Wolves in the game, so they could be easy additions. Darknuts with this game's fleshed out AI system are too exciting to pass up. You'd be able to flat out steal their armor this time around along with the usual blade swiping mechanic from the previous games. Enemies and bosses exclusive to certain biomes and weather conditions would make each area more unique. Wall based enemies like tektites would make scaling the world more interesting. There's a lot of positive additions one could make just digging into the series war chest, let alone whatever new additions they come up with. On the whole though I hope the enemies are more imposing and aggressive. I want more miniboss type enemies like Lynel and Guardians that make you second guess strolling into an area. 

 

I don't expect all of these additions to make it into the next game. Just a few would make me really happy. 

 

[JezMM]

I feel like the weapon durability case is somewhat mind-set based.  I never felt like the weapons were made of glass because I knew the pace of weapon changing was taking artistic liberties on realism in the same way that I didn't go "What the hell, a day lasts 24 minutes!?  What kind of crazy rotation does Hyrule's planet have!?"

 

I feel if durability was longer, players would be even more annoyed when a certain weapon breaks because they've gotten attached to it. I also feel permanent weapons would just destroy any chance of players using a variety unless certain weapons worked better on certain foes, and that runs a risk of just turning the combat into old-3D-Zelda style "use square peg in square hole" item-based combat.  Perhaps they could add some new legendary weapons that work like the Master Sword though, breaking for a while rather than permanently if used haphazardly etc. But again there's the fear that it would make the Master Sword less special.  It's gonna be a tricky needle to thread, personally I am in the "Enjoyed improvising all the time but better menu please".  I'm not sure about auto-switching when a weapon breaks coz it'd suck to waste some durability of one you were saving in a panic, but at the very least I want to be able to drop items from the quick menu by holding down on the d-pad for a half second or something.

 

 

I wonder how they'll cut off the branches of the wildly different personal stories that the player could experience in BotW too?  It'd be kind of neat if you could export over BotW1 save data - it'd be a shame to invalidate a more casual player's experience in which Link never regained his memory - could give some interesting alternate dialogue for Link and Zelda if so.

Also, on a vaguely related note, I desperately want them to canonically show or at least imply that Link told Zelda about her father's diary if you found it:

SHE NEEDS TO KNOW HE LOVED HER AND REGRETTED HIS ACTIONS OKAY

[KHCast]

41 minutes ago, JezMM said:

it'd be a shame to invalidate a more casual player's experience in which Link never regained his memory - could give some interesting alternate dialogue for Link and Zelda if so.

I’m pretty sure there’s a canon set of events, and the other methods are just for the players enjoyment, so I don’t see this happening.

Also why not a auto weapon switching system like Kingdom Hearts 3 or Final Fantasy XV for weapons? While I’m in the camp that’s not a huge Into the weapon durability system as it is currently(it’s just never been a system personally I enjoyed as much as others in most games that use it.), I feel most for sure weren’t a fan of the pace breaking swapping weapon system. 

[Solly]

Interested in seeing how they'll address the complaints about weapon durability. A lot of players had very immediate, negative reactions to it, but to me it feels like one of those mechanics that you really need to spend a lot of time playing with to see what it does (and doesn't) add to the experience. On one hand, I really liked the "guns and ammo" approach to combat when the game was forcing you to just scavenge and use whatever you could find, almost like Dead Rising. It's part of what made the Great Plateau so compelling and what made Eventide Island and the Master Trials some of the most revered and talked-about sections of the game. It leads to a lot of improvising and emergent gameplay; players are tasked with considering what weapons they want to use, on which enemies, how to obtain them, what happens if they break in the middle of a fight, whether or not they want to throw a nearly-broken sword to score a critical hit on a distant foe, etc. 

The problem with this system, in my opinion, is that it loses much of its relevance as you progress through the game. After you upgrade your inventory and start finding weapons that last more than a dozen hits, you can easily end up with more than you know what to do with. You can eventually become choosy; I was frequently turning down weapons that did ~40 damage because I had stockpiles of swords, clubs and spears that did ~60. When you're thriving, rather than just surviving, the durability system starts to feel like an inconvenience at best.

That's why I think the sequel should either double down on it and make it a more persistent mechanic throughout the entirety of BOTW2, or rethink the whole thing. I'm inclined to think they'd do the latter, though. As mentioned, many of the negative takes on weapon durability are on a conceptual level. 

[StaticMania]

2 hours ago, Solly said:

That's why I think the sequel should either double down on it and make it a more persistent mechanic throughout the entirety of BOTW2...

I actually hope they do that, being choosy about items due to storage is not a fun feeling in games.

[Wraith]

An easy concession to make without upending the whole system would be permanently unbreakable weapons to unlock. Frankly I think the first game should have had this.

The Master Sword is the obvious choice but I think the champion weapons could have had this property as well so you had one permanent weapon of each class. Players who want to just mash away with their weapon of choice can do that while the rest of us could keep playing the intended way.

I personally wouldnt like having the safety net of a bunch of permanent weapons on me at all times but like Solly said the durability system invalidates itself later on anyway. Might as well make permanent weapons unlockable after a certain point if youre not going to address this.

[Blue Blood]

Breath of the Wild is at its best when the player is inconvenienced, and they are forced to find ways around it. Once you know where to go to keep a good supply of the best weapons, endura shrooms for infinite stamina and hearty veg for infinite health, the game becomes less fun. This relates to the inventory as well - once upgraded, you end up with so many weapons that you stop caring, and it simply becomes an annoyance. So the idea of having more permanent weapons than the Master Sword even as an option is a no-go for me in the BotW gameplay. This is one of those situations where I think that a self-imposed challenge or ruleset isn't really the best thing. Don't provide the player with tools and tell them to use them at their own discretion - either design the game with those tools in mind or simply don't include them. 

If the durability system makes a come back (and I really hope that it does), this game should find a way to make sure that it does not invalidate itself. And it limit the player's carrying capacity for other items because what's even the point if I can carry 5 fairies, Mipha's grace and 3-dozen hearty meals for instant full health recovery. It takes just one hearty ingredient cooked on its own to get full health. That's broken.

Yeah I think that's my issue with BotW's systems; they are too easily broken. They're great and absolutely game defining when you're new to the game, but become increasingly flawed when you learn more about them. Part of that may come from just how open-ended the game is. You can do anything in any order and avoid anything you don't like. Maybe a touch more direction direction would be a good thing?

[Lord-Dreamerz]

I REALLY hope BOTW-2 has FAR more enemy variety this time. It annoyed me how BOTW had less enemies then the linear Zelda games, I noticed this is a problem with many open world games in general. I also hope there will be more mini-games and many actual interesting items to hunt for. Once you realize that weapons and items are basically toilet paper, it doesn't encourage you to try overly hard to explore and hunt many items down when knowing ahead of time most things you can find won't last long anyways. I'm truly hoping BOTW-2 is a big improvement over the first game...I actually agreed with some reviews that only gave it roughly a 7 outta 10. A really good game... but not anywhere near perfect to me personally.

[Blue Blood]

32 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

I REALLY hope BOTW-2 has FAR more enemy variety this time. It annoyed me how BOTW had less enemies then the linear Zelda games, I noticed this is a problem with many open world games in general. I also hope there will be more mini-games and many actual interesting items to hunt for. Once you realize that weapons and items are basically toilet paper, it doesn't encourage you to want to try overly hard to explore and hunt many items down when knowing ahead of time most things you can find won't last long anyways. I'm truly hoping BOTW-2 is a big improvement over the first game...I actually agreed with some reviews that only gave it roughly a 7 outta 10. A really good game... but not anywhere near perfect to me personally.

Ever dropped some of the elemental rods on the ground for Bokoblins and such to pick up and use? That shit is insane. The sequel needs to give enemies access to crazier weapons.

[Diogenes]

Personally I think durability worked pretty well, and rather than trying to compromise with a desire for more permanent weapons it should be pushed even harder. I think giving players a permanent, weak weapon would just encourage hoarding even more and lead to a less enjoyable experience; if everything breaks they at least have to confront the mechanic and pick what they want to save and what they want to sacrifice, but if they've got something unbreakable to fall back on they're likely to keep choosing that and save the more powerful breakable weapons for when they "really" need them. At most I'd add maybe a 1 (or even 0?) damage sword just to be sure you always have something to hit switches with or slap an enemy away if you're really in a desperate spot, but even that isn't necessary as long as they keep the bomb rune around. More than that and I think you'd unbalance the system so much you'd be better off finding a way to go without durability at all.

Instead I'd try to juice up the feel of breaking weapons, try to make it feel enjoyable rather than like losing an item. Figure out some way to smooth out inventory management so there's less downtime when you break one, increase the damage multiplier on the last hit so it's more enticing to work towards a break, maybe have weapons drop some items when they break so there's a material reward for doing so.

[Wraith]

Maybe weapons could be assigned an optional "finishing move" for when its close to breaking. Give the players more incentive to just burn the weapon instead of holding onto it, especially in a pinch.

[KHCast]

I mean Nintendo has always been one to create alternate play styles in order to be more accessible (smart steering for MK, the cosmic guide in galaxy, that easy mode in Star Fox 0, etc.) So the option to use unbreakable weapons I personally see as no different. If you don’t want to use them, you don’t, just ignore them and continue with the breakable weapons you use. Why force people to use a system they already don’t enjoy just because you personally like it and feel it compliments the game. Clearly that’s not a universal experience from others who have played and beaten the game and I don’t think their experiences or thoughts are invalid. If games like Skyrim being massive successes is any indication, a lack of weapon breaking doesn’t always take away from the experience for these open world games for many people.

[Diogenes]

Alternate ways of playing are good, I'm all for accessibility options and the like, but I think there's also times when the player needs to be protected from themself. It's the designers' job to shape the experience of playing the game, and if there's a situation where human psychology will lead players to choose to play in a way that isn't as fun or interesting, they should guard against that. And I think just throwing unbreakable weapons into BotW as is and expecting people to choose whether or not to use them would make it a worse experience for everyone.

[KHCast]

How about the option to keep the broken remains of the weapon, and take it to a smith or to fix it (or fix yourself)albeit with a higher cost of materials and money needed depending on the weapon or with some other drawback? Would that work as a compromise potentially? 

[Diogenes]

Just now, KHCast said:

How about the option to keep the broken remains of the weapon, and take it to a smith or to fix it (or fix yourself)albeit with a higher cost of materials and money needed depending on the weapon or with some other drawback? Would that work as a compromise potentially? 

Honestly? I hate it. The way the system currently works you can stay out exploring practically indefinitely. If a weapon breaks you just pick another one up off an enemy or from a chest or just laying around somewhere and you go on your way. If weapons stick around in a broken state they'd clog up your inventory until you either throw them out (people won't, or they'd be fine with them disappearing) or take the time to go repair them. And it's not as if any weapon in the game is so rare or precious that you can't just go out and find another one of it anyway; aside from chests everything respawns, so if that flaming greatsword is so important to you you can just go back to the whale skeleton where you found it and pick up another one.

[KHCast]

Is there a situation or way in which they could do something that appeals to both sides that you’d be alright with or open to? Cause I feel as if doubling down isn’t gonna win the people that raised criticism over the system. Though if their goal is simply to satisfy the people that had no problem with it and don’t want it changed at all, I guess doing something like that is the logical next step. Which is fine. It’ll just personally for me be more clear from the get go it’s not really gonna be my kind of thing, if it’s just more of the same

[Lord-Dreamerz]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Alternate ways of playing are good, I'm all for accessibility options and the like, but I think there's also times when the player needs to be protected from themself. It's the designers' job to shape the experience of playing the game, and if there's a situation where human psychology will lead players to choose to play in a way that isn't as fun or interesting, they should guard against that. And I think just throwing unbreakable weapons into BotW as is and expecting people to choose whether or not to use them would make it a worse experience for everyone.

Or hear me out here. Not everybody thought that trash durability system was fun nor interesting? I know for a fact I would enjoy it more if the weapons didn't break whatsoever and as a result it would had improved my experience with the game. I am 100% against your opinion here. I don't need protection from myself when i know what i would prefer as a more enjoyable time. Nintendo can do whatever they want obviously, i'm not going to pretend they should listen to me. But that doesn't mean I'll not stop asking for what i think would improve it for people like myself.

[Diogenes]

26 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Is there a situation or way in which they could do something that appeals to both sides that you’d be alright with or open to?

I'm open to a solution that pleases both sides, but I've neither come up with one myself nor heard one suggested that convinces me. Durability's not a trivial mechanic in BotW; any changes to it are bound to have knock-on effects on other mechanics, and the solutions I've seen don't really account for how much else would need to be changed.

[Wraith]

4 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

Ever dropped some of the elemental rods on the ground for Bokoblins and such to pick up and use? That shit is insane. The sequel needs to give enemies access to crazier weapons.

This is part of the reason there are so few enemies. The AI they display is leagues ahead of past games, so comparing the quantity of enemies doesnt tell the whole story. Previous enemies had a lot of variety visually but beating them was usually down to picking the right tool. Bokoblins feel like real creatures who interact with the same world as link and have to follow the same rules. Thats no small achievement.

Im sure there will be more enemies regardless but I hope they all have some level of care put into them.