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Miragnarok

Next Main Game is 30th Anniversary Title, Drop Dash News

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12 minutes ago, Milo said:

Also going to add to this and note that regarding Sonic; the series has a history of establishing each new location as existing in a different location of Sonic's world/universe, whether that is on a new island or a different area of a country or on a different planet entirely. They were designated to be their own thing, not just in the context of whatever story/adventure they were a part of but also in relation to other settings in the series. So seeing Green Hill aesthetics (if not Green Hill itself outright) constantly crop up used in what are supposed to be new environments stories comes across as really uninspired. At least with the NSMB Mario games, they don't hold any pretensions of being games set in new locations (even given a lot of Mario games have actually been asking for that from the 2D games for quite some time now).

The actual Green Hill itself being overused is an issue (although I don't think it is as big a deal as many are making it out to be at the moment).

But again, Green Hill adaptations (like Angel Island) as a trope to highlight the themes of the series are always going to be used. Sonic games are unlikely to find themselves on a place like, for example, Pandora from Borderlands. At least initially and definitely not in a way that centralizes the entire setting and atmosphere. Sonic travels all over the place but he and his little furry buddies clearly live in Green Hill like environments and most often he finds himself fighting to protect that. So if it isn't green hill, its going to be another lush Greenland full of hills and waterfalls. And that should be expected, I think it is unreasonable not to.

Outside of that, I can agree that Sonic Team has dialed a bit heavy in the way they constantly reuse classic nostalgia in only the most surface level ways. Only in Mania (which wasn't even them) did they finally do it in a way that actually stayed on point. And I agree that every title should not do that, even a Mania sequel or spiritual sequel should consider refreshing the formula in some way.

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1 minute ago, Milo said:

Also going to add to this and note that regarding Sonic; the series has a history of establishing each new location as existing in a different location of Sonic's world/universe, whether that is on a new island or a different area of a country or on a different planet entirely. They were designated to be their own thing, not just in the context of whatever story/adventure they were a part of but also in relation to other settings in the series. So seeing Green Hill aesthetics (if not Green Hill itself outright) constantly crop up used in what are supposed to be new environments stories comes across as really uninspired.

This isn't wrong exactly, but even early in the series we were getting GHZ lookalikes like Emerald Hill and Palmtree Panic. They're not as blatant as straight up reusing GHZ, but they're very clearly riffing on the original.

It's something that needs to be balanced. Sonic Team's gone too far lately, overusing and cheaply exploiting GHZ as a recognizable location, but it isn't a bad thing for a series to build up consistent aesthetics and recurring locations. Sometimes people seem to be in a rush to throw out anything that's been brought back to the series and that's just overcompensating for Sonic Team's mistakes.

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12 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

This isn't wrong exactly, but even early in the series we were getting GHZ lookalikes like Emerald Hill and Palmtree Panic. They're not as blatant as straight up reusing GHZ, but they're very clearly riffing on the original.

It's something that needs to be balanced. Sonic Team's gone too far lately, overusing and cheaply exploiting GHZ as a recognizable location, but it isn't a bad thing for a series to build up consistent aesthetics and recurring locations. Sometimes people seem to be in a rush to throw out anything that's been brought back to the series and that's just overcompensating for Sonic Team's mistakes.

When we overcompensate, we get stuff like Rise of Lyric. Remember that. And even then, Emerald Hill and Palmtree Panic are more distinct than Splash Hill and even Windy Hill.

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7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

If they brought back the classic style, but with new locations, then I'd be up for that. So far they haven't shown an interest in doing much of that, though. The classic shouts in the new games feel so arbirtary when the games aren't interested in their depth, themes etc. It should be the reverse where they try to embody these ideas in new ways that still fit the series. 

Like, levels like Final Egg, Grand Metropolis and Planet Wisp FEEL like they carry the spirit of the series without reading like a rehash. That's all I want. 

I have to agree. Final Egg is one of my favorite levels for that very reason. Feels like some combo between Death Egg and Scrap Brain without actually being either. And in general this is all I'd advocate for in future games that are not deliberate remakes or anniversary titles. You can keep within the thematic boundaries of the series and still find ways to remain fresh, and that is a good example of how to do it. Note, I also liked Crazy Gadget in SA2 (one of my favorite levels, even though many other people hate it) for its difficulty and nods to Death Egg, while doing something totally new.

Compare this to the actual Death Egg from Forces. I mean, I'm flattered that they were supposedly thinking of guys like me when they made that but it didn't do much for me. Why did the death Egg have to exist again when it was knocked out of orbit several times and then destroyed? Just nothing satisfactory there, even though it looked good.

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1 hour ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I take your point but I don't think this is totally true and even then it is beside the point. The theme of nature vs machine is perfectly captured by the progression from green hill to scrap brain zone. Green hill represents the natural world Sonic and his little furry buddies live in, before the interference from the series primary villain. It its highest ideal, the peace the Sonic is trying to save. So while Green Hill was a level, it is symbolic for one of the series primary themes in general.

Oh no, there's nothing inherently wrong with Green Hill Zone.

It's the overly shallow and frequent reuse that's the problem.

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

Sonic Lost World and Sonic 4 both got away with essentially doing it in name only. 

 

If even that.

48 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Another aspect to this “Nostalgic Key Jingling” is “validation”, or swipes at things about the IP that the target audience of the references dislike, such as Knuckles tossing the gun of Shadow aside or Sonic offhandedly mentioning Elise in Dimensions for Classic fans, Zavok getting effortlessly pummeled in Forces for Dreamcast fans, etc. 

Oh what, is it a "My memorabilia is better than yours" thing?

48 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

 

Imagine they wheel out Final Egg and have players blow up Wisp, Deadly Six, and Orbot and Cubot dolls, for one thing. Or Sonic getting punched in the face for saying “Baldy McNosehair”

Do the Wisps even begin to warrant any sort of easter egg?

42 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

This isn't wrong exactly, but even early in the series we were getting GHZ lookalikes like Emerald Hill and Palmtree Panic. They're not as blatant as straight up reusing GHZ, but they're very clearly riffing on the original.

27 minutes ago, Wraith said:

If they brought back the classic style, but with new locations, then I'd be up for that. So far they haven't shown an interest in doing much of that, though. The classic shouts in the new games feel so arbirtary when the games aren't interested in their depth, themes etc. It should be the reverse where they try to embody these ideas in new ways that still fit the series. 

Like, levels like Final Egg, Grand Metropolis and Planet Wisp FEEL like they carry the spirit of the series without reading like a rehash. That's all I want. 

/

That's an important distinction as well: Same idea, different code of paint. Windy Hill didn't bother me personally in part because "Green grassland" is as basic as that trope can get. 

Either way, however, there should be some creativity and/or "originality" happening at least half the time. 

42 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

 Sometimes people seem to be in a rush to throw out anything that's been brought back to the series and that's just overcompensating for Sonic Team's mistakes.

And this is a important thing for both fans and Sonic Team themselves to remember.

24 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

When we overcompensate, we get stuff like Rise of Lyric. Remember that.

And Forces.

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1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Oh no, there's nothing inherently wrong with Green Hill Zone.

It's the overly shallow and frequent reuse that's the problem.

If even that.

Oh what, is it a "My memorabilia is better than yours" thing?

Do the Wisps even begin to warrant any sort of easter egg?

/

That's an important distinction as well: Same idea, different code of paint. Windy Hill didn't bother me personally in part because "Green grassland" is as basic as that trope can get. 

Either way, however, there should be some creativity and/or "originality" happening at least half the time. 

And this is a important thing for both fans and Sonic Team themselves to remember.

And Forces.

1. Agreed.

2. Yeah. It’s so bad even minor uses of it have been slammed under the bus.

3. In everything but name, actually. 

4. Yes, exactly. Another problem is that it makes people who had their era attacked accuse those who do these scenes as being hypocritical. “What about the stuff WE hated? What about a swat at Rise of Lyric?” The game instead ignores the arguably even worse era of that game entirely. No references either way to it or any other Colors Era game.

5. They’ve been around for way, way too long in general, so yes. They do merit an Easter egg. 

6. Exactly. The problem is that Windy Hill HAS no defining, differentiating features compared to past grasslands. If it’s not a GHZ knockoff, it’s completely generic. 

7. Mania proves you can offset and mitigate that with cute animations and good physics. 

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4 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

It... really wasn't though. Someone, somewhere in Sonic Team full well understood that kind of potential. Stages like Metropolis Capital City (aka Operation Big Wave) and Sonic's Boss Battle against Infinite are absolute showcases of how they should have implemented the phantom ruby though much of the game. Warping the landscape into impossible hellish nightmares that change the dynamic of how you approach each area. Those were set pieces where you could see and feel his power. Presented in a manner where you could believe the gem could thwart the entire resistance army. It spectacle in form and function and allows for the impossible angles and wacky level design while still being grounded and believable. They could build levels within levels. They had free range to make wild transitions without sacrificing the consistency of the locations.

They struck pure gold... but only played with it in 1 or 2 levels. MADNESS. Even when they have a good idea, they somehow decide to under utilize it.

 

I know. That was sarcasm.

I don't really feel like any of what we're all asking for is realistically beyond the scope of talent and expectation of the people they have over there. It really does feel more like this new direction, whatever it is, is opting for something that takes the cheapest route imaginable and its leaving way too much on the cutting room floor. Or even worse, it's creating an environment where it's not paying dividends to let an idea breathe and come into its own anymore. 

The most frustrating part is kind of how it feels like we collectively can't do much about it. It so often just feels like we're waiting for a train that's never going to come. That does tend to make all the genuine positive surprises more exciting at the very least. 

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I also find the complaining over Green Hill strange. I mean, I would understand it if it was based on how badly Green Hill has been adapted in recent years. The Green Hill of Adventure 2 is a lot more inspired and interesting than that of Forces, for example. I also think that they need to start doing Emerald Hill type revisions rather than using Green Hill in exactly the same way. But many people just want to see the entire motif die and not return for ages because it's 'overused'. I find the whole thing baffling quite frankly and its very unique to this fanbase. You don't see people getting so furious about Green Greens, Mushroom Kingdom and Jungle Hijinx type levels (I know people want these games, particularly Mario, to be more original in their level themes, but nobody's fuming about those iconic level tropes being reused in the same extent as the Sonic fanbase is with Green Hill).

And the reason for that is very simple: this argument over Green Hill in particular doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's very closely related to this persecution complex that Classic Sonic gets too much treatment and that the 'Adventure' era is ignored. Green Hill's constant reuse isn't simply controversial because of the level itself, but because it represents a desire to return to the classic art style, and I really do think that's the crux for why people are so angry about it. It's tied to the way people get angry when Chemical Plant reappeared in Forces, despite the fact it was almost a completely different level and is quite within the boundaries of the evolution in series' tropes you would see in other franchises.

I agree with UpDownC that I would prefer it if many Adventure era fans would just admit this was the problem for them. It's more that they don't want the return to the Classic formula than that they don't want old level themes to be reused.

And I agree with UpDownC also that the series should return to the 90s style if it wants to survive. Many of the attributes of the series post Adventure were quite frankly terrible. A Sonic Adventure remake would be awful because the game has aged horribly and is un-salvagable for modern standards. The direction that series took with its po-faced anime wannabe style is also cringe-inducing and is arguably more of a relic of the early 2000's than the Classic games are a product of the 90's (and that's saying something).

So people are actually right in that the series has been reusing a lot of its motifs and calling back to its roots in recent years, but I find that a good thing. Sonic was on top of the world in the 90s and a genuine competitor to Nintendo. Ever since Adventure, Sonic was on a steady and slow decline precisely because the series slowly began a betrayal of its roots.

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Gonna lump some of these together with the original prompts because I have no idea where the distinction of what response is at times.

9 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

(Oh no, there's nothing inherently wrong with Green Hill Zone.)

(It's the overly shallow and frequent reuse that's the problem.)

(If even that.)

(That's an important distinction as well: Same idea, different code of paint. Windy Hill didn't bother me personally in part because "Green grassland" is as basic as that trope can get. Either way, however, there should be some creativity and/or "originality" happening at least half the time. )

2. Yeah. It’s so bad even minor uses of it have been slammed under the bus.

3. In everything but name, actually. 

6. Exactly. The problem is that Windy Hill HAS no defining, differentiating features compared to past grasslands. If it’s not a GHZ knockoff, it’s completely generic. 

For me, Windy Hill would've been fine if that "former parts of Sonic's World" thing I heard once were true and either way it would've better if instead of checkerboard patterns, there were hexagons and/or chinese checkers.

 

14 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

(Oh what, is it a "My memorabilia is better than yours" thing?)

4. Yes, exactly. Another problem is that it makes people who had their era attacked accuse those who do these scenes as being hypocritical. “What about the stuff WE hated? What about a swat at Rise of Lyric?” The game instead ignores the arguably even worse era of that game entirely. No references either way to it or any other Colors Era game.

 

Rise of Lyric is part of a different subseries though.

What game are you referring to, btw?

14 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

(Do the Wisps even begin to warrant any sort of easter egg?)

5. They’ve been around for way, way too long in general, so yes. They do merit an Easter egg. 

I think you misunderstood my question.

As for the Wisps themselves, eh. Aside from Yacker and Mother Wisp, they haven't really been much of anything from a character standpoint. And even with those two, Yacker is a White Wisp with a curl who hasn't really been in anything since his debut to my knowledge and the Mother Wisp was DS exclusive until the spinoffs that are Runners & TSR, the the former of which referenced literally everything anyway. Thus, they kinda fail to slot in anyway with the Deadly Six or the Shapebots, who actually are prominent characters.

Now from a gameplay standpoint, I think that is where the weirdness actually comes in. They were perfect for Colors--the former was made around them to begin with and even then, the cutscenes mainly focused on Sonic, Tails, Eggman, and Cubot. Generations and some spinoffs are whatever, since they were only in one level based on Colors and are spinoffs, respectively. It's when we get to Lost World where they were considered a problem, for three reasons: there was no story relevance, they received no explanation for their presence that I've heard of, and they apparently controlled like ass. I personally would've been fine if the explanation that came in Sonic Runners had probably been there on top of there being more games without their mechanic, but that's just me. Forces kinda gets away with it since it was a halfassed kitchen sink to begin with and the Wispon is probably one of the better concepts, but I suppose less is more is the theme of that game anyway so whatever.

14 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

(And this is a important thing for both fans and Sonic Team themselves to remember.)

(And Forces.)

7. Mania proves you can offset and mitigate that with cute animations and goodphysics. 

...Huh...?

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It doesn’t matter if the stage being pushed is Green Hill Zone, City Escape or Windmill Isle. The issue is simple: fans are sick of seeing the same damn thing over and over again.

This is basically what would happen if your favorite holiday was celebrated every day of the year: it stops being unique and it degrades to your average Thursday.

This is not something I hold to Sonic exclusively.

One of the major complaints I’ve seen from plenty of fans who grew up on Gen 1 Pokemon is that they’re tired of Game Freak’s constantly reminding people how awesome Kanto is that they ran with Pokemon XY. So you can't blame nostalgia for why people are bored of seeing the stage.

The series can’t keep partying like it’s 1991. It needs to actually move forward because every game produced by ST have been saying ‘we’re returning to the roots’ since Colors.

Thank god the comics haven’t succumbed to this state of nostalgic stagnation.

Also, many Adventure fans would like to see elements from that era(actual 3D, multiple playable characters, etc) not only return but fixed the problems the games had before so they're an non-issue. You can't just say "it didn't age well" as a reason to keep the series in a creative rut.

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1 hour ago, Plasme said:

I also find the complaining over Green Hill strange. I mean, I would understand it if it was based on how badly Green Hill has been adapted in recent years. The Green Hill of Adventure 2 is a lot more inspired and interesting than that of Forces, for example. I also think that they need to start doing Emerald Hill type revisions rather than using Green Hill in exactly the same way. But many people just want to see the entire motif die and not return for ages because it's 'overused'. I find the whole thing baffling quite frankly and its very unique to this fanbase. You don't see people getting so furious about Green Greens, Mushroom Kingdom and Jungle Hijinx type levels (I know people want these games, particularly Mario, to be more original in their level themes, but nobody's fuming about those iconic level tropes being reused in the same extent as the Sonic fanbase is with Green Hill).

And the reason for that is very simple: this argument over Green Hill in particular doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's very closely related to this persecution complex that Classic Sonic gets too much treatment and that the 'Adventure' era is ignored. Green Hill's constant reuse isn't simply controversial because of the level itself, but because it represents a desire to return to the classic art style, and I really do think that's the crux for why people are so angry about it. It's tied to the way people get angry when Chemical Plant reappeared in Forces, despite the fact it was almost a completely different level and is quite within the boundaries of the evolution in series' tropes you would see in other franchises.

While I'm not an avid player of Kirby, Mario, or Donkey Kong I did just get done playing my very first 3D Mario game since I was a kid who was disgruntled and disappointed by Mario Sunshine. Super Mario Odyssey was that game and it was amazing.  It utilized it's very unique take on the locations Mario visited to the absolute fullest. Each world felt like they're own character and the amount of world building the game had when attached to a story as simple as "Bowser has kidnapped Peach because he wants to force her to marry him" is intensely impressive. There's so much new and fresh and well-done about that game that complaining about the inclusion of a Mushroom Kingdom level and calling it lazy would have been ludacris.

It also helps that the way they handled the inclusion of the Mushroom Kingdom was brilliant as well. It's the area you unlock after you've already beaten the story. It's basically an extra world, packed full to the brim with stuff to do in a shorter space than most triple A titles have in their entire, endless maps filled with literally nothing. Who cares if Fallout 76 is 4 times the size of Fallout 4 when there's nothing to do in all that space? 

I don't think the frustration with Green Hill and Chemical Plant comes down to just having a persecution complex because people who like the Adventure games want to see more of that stuff paid attention to. You throw anything in front of us too many times without doing much interesting with it and it'll get stale. It's why I wasn't jazzed to hear that Planet Wisp and Rooftop Run were returning yet again from Team Sonic Racing. I admired what they managed to do with the two extra Spagonia themed levels in that game because turning it into a Haunted Castle and thrusting us way into the sky among some cotton candy colored clouds is actually a significant enough difference to keep the location fresh. 

However, I still would have preferred they pick a location like Eggmanland or Dragon Road. Wanting other concepts to return is certainly part of why the disappointment is high but it's certainly not rooted in just a desire for the Adventure series and it's concepts.

Had they done something like what was proposed within the concept art of Forces by covering Green Hill in barbed wire and making it dark and stormy, I'd have welcomed the stage with open arms. It would have had an actual point then. Showcasing the juxtaposition between how beautiful and lush Green Hill used to be with how dark, dreary, and depressing it was now that Eggman had taken it over would have revitalized my enthusiasm for seeing it appear as far as Forces was concerned.

Image result for sonic forces concept art

However, when you just throw it in there on loan from Generations and toss some sand in then call it a day it's not going to elicit much of a positive response.

The differences between Green Hill and Chemical Plant in Forces versus Generations mostly come about as a result from a comparative lack of detail in some cases and negligible bells and whistles in others.

Chemical Plant had small sections where you could make out snow and ice but it wasn't enough to make the feel of the location that much different. This problem probably could have been fixed had there been a more solid story reason for it's inclusion, which would have been easy to do, but like with everything in Forces, these locations just kind of exist. The burning city is just called "City" for some reason and unlock in Sonic Boom, there doesn't seem to be a joke surrounding the fact that it's a nameless town.

The only locations with any context are the last 3 locations, Metropolis, Death Egg, and the Eggman Empire Fortress and the only reason those locations have context is because Eggman either owns them or took them over. We don't know anything about Metropolis aside from that and the Death Egg's context is reliant mostly on past games. This game certainly never explains why its dangerous or why it needs to be destroyed. It's just another Eggman base as far as Forces is concerned.

I don't find the complaints about Green Hill strange but I also don't opt for getting rid of it either. Clearly it just needs to be utilized better. We've seen Green Hill and pretenders to the Green Hill throne (Windy Hill) come about so often. What emotion is it supposed to elicit from people at this point? You can't be nostalgic for something that won't go the hell away. Find a new spin or twist on it for each game you decide to toss into it and maybe the complaints will die down.

Or better yet, surround it in a game that does everything new and creative as to make complaints about the Green Hill imagery negligible.

1 hour ago, Plasme said:

A Sonic Adventure remake would be awful because the game has aged horribly and is un-salvagable for modern standards.

Generally the point of a remake is to account for how much a game has aged. A one-to-one remake of Sonic Adventure probably wouldn't be something they would want to do. However, if they were to try, it probably wouldn't be that hard to streamline the gameplay so that they felt similarly enough to Sonic's usual style of play. Tails is basically Sonic, except he can fly. Knuckles would need only be put in a more linear level rather than an open world one to bring him up to speed. Amy and Gamma basically just need to move a bit faster and that'd be it. Gamma, I honestly think is fine the way he is to be honest. 

The only real hang up in my opinion is Big but even then if what he did amounted to just a mini-game that functioned properly and was actually fun then that'd be fine as well. He doesn't have that many levels anyway. 

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4 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

But Green Hill Zone is essentially the equivalent of Mushroom Kingdom for Mario.

Wrong.

Green Hill Zone is more along the lines of World 1-1, which is not used nearly as much as Mario considering it can only be referenced via level layout (usually the first screen).

Mushroom Kingdom is a general setting, not a level aesthetic.

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1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

Wrong.

Green Hill Zone is more along the lines of World 1-1, which is not used nearly as much as Mario considering it can only be referenced via level layout (usually the first screen).

Mushroom Kingdom is a general setting, not a level aesthetic.

Wrong. Green Hill Zone is a general setting with an aesthetic.

Sonic technically didn't even have 'levels' in the classics like Mario did, he has Zones with 'acts' which are meant to be full environments that appear to have their own history (although you dont experience that fully as a player). Read into hirokazu yasuhara and more of the development history of the classic games for more on this.

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9 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Green Hill Zone is a general setting with an aesthetic.

I call it a level aesthetic because it's only ever used as such, until it actually is Green Hill. (Seaside Hill, Sunset Hill, Splash Hill, Windy Hill, Neo Green Hill, Neo Green Hill)

The Mario characters live in the Mushroom Kingdom, Sonic characters don't live in Green Hill Zone...so I can only call it what it is, just a level aesthetic.

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1 hour ago, knuckles20 said:

It doesn’t matter if the stage being pushed is Green Hill Zone, City Escape or Windmill Isle. The issue is simple: fans are sick of seeing the same damn thing over and over again.

This is basically what would happen if your favorite holiday was celebrated every day of the year: it’s stop being unique and it degrades to your average Thursday.

This is not something I hold to Sonic exclusively.

One of the major complaints I’ve seen from plenty of fans who grew up on Gen 1 Pokemon is that they’re tired of Game Freak’s constantly reminding people how awesome Kanto is that they ran with Pokemon XY. So you can't blame nostalgia for why people are bored of seeing the stage.

The series can’t keep partying like it’s 1991. It needs to actually move forward because every game produced by ST have been saying ‘we’re returning to the roots’ since Colors.

Thank god the comics haven’t succumbed to this state of nostalgic stagnation.

This is a valid point but the reason I made that post is because I have seen people in this very thread say that they are okay with nostalgia pandering as long as it is the Adventure kind, as well as other online forums. 

Again, I dont think nostalgia pandering is inherently bad and think it can be good when handled appropriately and not overdone. I also would be fine with some adventure era pandering. In fact, when some of the trailers for Forces came out and we saw some of the adventure era stuff like chaos, I cracked a little smile. Definitely cool to see some of it again because there were some cool and interesting concepts from that era. I would be okay if the series decided it wanted to revisit some of that again (although for sure I'd be a little wary in some ways) because I was also a fan in that era just like I have been in the boost era, or any other era. 

I just think people should admit this when they talk about it. I admit it all the time as a so called classic fan, although I think the classic era has a strong and somewhat natural argument for being reused or seeing many callbacks, since it was by far the most successful time period in the franchise.

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2 hours ago, knuckles20 said:

 It doesn’t matter if the stage being pushed is Green Hill Zone, City Escape or Windmill Isle. The issue is simple: fans are sick of seeing the same damn thing over and over again.

This is basically what would happen if your favorite holiday was celebrated every day of the year: it stops being unique and it degrades to your average Thursday.

This is not something I hold to Sonic exclusively.

One of the major complaints I’ve seen from plenty of fans who grew up on Gen 1 Pokemon is that they’re tired of Game Freak’s constantly reminding people how awesome Kanto is that they ran with Pokemon XY. So you can't blame nostalgia for why people are bored of seeing the stage.

The series can’t keep partying like it’s 1991. It needs to actually move forward because every game produced by ST have been saying ‘we’re returning to the roots’ since Colors.

Thank god the comics haven’t succumbed to this state of nostalgic stagnation.

Also, many Adventure fans would like to see elements from that era(actual 3D, multiple playable characters, etc) not only return but fixed the problems the games had before so they're an non-issue. You can't just say "it didn't age well" as a reason to keep the series in a creative rut.

The movie also hasn't succumbed, but it's really too bad that the movie suffers from its own problems to the point it's not even worthwhile. And for some reason people are miffed at the NEW creative elements like Dynamaxing, too. Some even complain that they want the Contests and Battle Frontier back instead.

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I’ve stated before that it doesn’t matter what stage ST pushes and it’s not because I prefer the Adventure era. I’m bored of being told how iconic and amzing Green Hill Zone is. It’s hard to feel nostalgic for something that been gone for less than a day.

But if you think my displeasure of seeing Green Hill Zone is simply because I’m not fond of the classic era, that is very incorrect.

For example, my favorite video game franchise is Pokemon. The first game I’ve ever played was version Blue. And I’ve watched the anime series all the way at the start from the Kids WB days and I still watch it to this day.  Most people would think that based on these facts I would be a genwunner: a Pokemon fan that disses anything that doesn’t resemble the Gen 1 era.

But this is wrong because:

1. My favorite game of all time is Alpha Sapphire(based in Hoenn)

2. Favorite anime arc is the XY arc(Kalos region).

3. You wanna know my current issue that I have with Pokemon? It needs to ease up on reminding people how amazing Kanto is.

From XY to the let’s go games it’s been Kanto this and Kanto that. From stuff like giving Charizard and Mewtwo 2 mega evolutions, the Alolan variants being exclusive to Kanto mons, and the new movie based what I’ve seen is going to be just the first one again but with 3D models! 

So despite Game Freak’s attempts to appeal to my childhood nostalgia, I’ve instead grown indifferent by anything that has a heavy Kanto focus. Because I love Pokemon more than just the first 151 entries and if I really want nothing but to relive those Kanto days, I got Version Blue sitting in my 3DS waiting to be played after I beat it within a week’s time.

And this is the issue some fans have with Sonic, we know GHZ is cool but it stopped being exciting when you throw it every chance they get as if they have nothing else to say.

And I would still say this even if I identified myself as a Classic fan.

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1 hour ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

This is a valid point but the reason I made that post is because I have seen people in this very thread say that they are okay with nostalgia pandering as long as it is the Adventure kind, as well as other online forums. 

 

If it gets you to leave it alone, I for one don't really want Dreamcast era nostalgia pandering.

I just want the games to start doing their own things again and do so in full gusto.

 

1 hour ago, Miragnarok said:

 And for some reason people are miffed at the NEW creative elements like Dynamaxing, too. 

The what now.

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8 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

The what now.

With Dynamaxing, you can make one Pokemon on your team giant sized. But it only last 3 turns and you can only use it once per battle.

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2 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

With Dynamaxing, you can make one Pokemon on your team giant sized. But it only last 3 turns and you can only use it once per battle.

What the fuck...?

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1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

What the fuck...?

Soon as I saw it, thought it was quite stupid. Running out of ideas, they are.

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

If it gets you to leave it alone, I for one don't really want Dreamcast era nostalgia pandering.

Haha, alright now. Sure I'll leave it alone.

2 hours ago, knuckles20 said:

I’ve stated before that it doesn’t matter what stage ST pushes and it’s not because I prefer the Adventure era. 

I never said it was YOU who said that. You made your point and I don't disagree. There are a few posts I can quote a few pages back that literally did say that though and I brought it up because I've seen it quite a lot, especially elsewhere. Otherwise wouldn't have said anything.

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With the Green Hill rehashing, I think it has more to do with how frequently it's reappeared in recent years - in the years starting with Generations.

You can see it better with Chemical Plant Zone, since Chemical Plant wasn't really on the Sonic fan radar until Generations. Until that game, it was just one of many levels of Sonic 2. But since Sonic Generations, Sonic Mania, and Sonic Forces, it has suddenly become THE level of Sonic 2. And yeah, that carries a bizarre taste.

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8 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

The movie also hasn't succumbed, but it's really too bad that the movie suffers from its own problems to the point it's not even worthwhile. And for some reason people are miffed at the NEW creative elements like Dynamaxing, too. Some even complain that they want the Contests and Battle Frontier back instead.

That's because Dynamaxing is lame. When people say they want new stuff, it should be automatically understood they mean new, good stuff.

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