Why do critics always pan Sonic storylines but give Mario a free pass?

[Meta77]

Marios stories are meant for children. Thats it. Seriously noting that deep. Sure at times it may seem they are ramping things up but overall "insert villian" captured peach or the stars and wants to do a bad thing with them or as in the last game simply try to marry peach. But they are written so that very young fans aka kids will be able to go through it and understand it for the most part.

Sonic can not decide if it wants to be serious, or a goofy comedy. From the more serious stories of adventure to 06 where eggman is trying to conquer the world or destroy cities to revive some random water god or creature that wants to wipe out time to the more comedy focused colors and boom. They try to continue to dance between the two sadly and until they learn to focus it will always get panned. I have not enjoyed a sonic story since 06 and unleasehed. and we know how bad 06 story was but still take it over genrations and color style ones.

[knuckles20]

1 hour ago, StarWarsSonic said:

I seem to be the only person on this forum that likes the stories from SA1, SA2 and Sonic Unleashed lol.

So should Sonic Team just do a Nintendo and scrap storylines altogether in 3D games? Or just hire better writers?

maybe get the IDW writers on the project?

You’re not the only person here who likes the stories of those games and I agree that the writing in the games needs an improvement.

[Plasme]

Didn't Mario Sunshine get lambasted by critics for its awful story?

[Zaysho]

24 minutes ago, Plasme said:

Didn't Mario Sunshine get lambasted by critics for its awful story?

I really only recall complaints about the voice acting. Sunshine has the same kind of minimal story most mainline Mario games do.

That game usually also gets pointed to why Mario games have such minimal voice acting and reduces everything to reacts and short catchphrases. Even in a more dialogue heavy game like Odyssey, Bowser only speaks in grunts and roars, etc.

[StaticMania]

Odyssey has less Dialogue than both Galaxy Games, what a world.

 

[Meta77]

Sega is just afraid to try new things storywise. But lord will they shove every dumb mechanic they can into a game aka wisp. Honestly let Ian write a story. At least then it be something neat to see. Even if the idw comics isnt everyones cup of tea its better than anything sega can write up.

[Menace2Society]

... Do I really need to explain this?

Mario games never get slammed for their stories, because they pretty much never put any real emphasis on them. They’re usually just an excuse to have the game rolling. The only mainline Mario game that really attempted storytelling was the first Galaxy game with Rosalina’s storybook, and that was just side-content really. (I heard some people say that Odyssey had a bit of a storyline going on as well, but I never really saw it like that)

While Sonic games are obviously not the most story-driven type of games, they usually tend to have more to their stories and have a larger amount emphasis attached to them with larger amounts of cutscenes and dialogue. Because of that, it’s a lot easier to criticize a Sonic plot than a Mario plot, because you can tell they’re actually trying to some sort of plot.

[Eurisko]

I've said it for many years now, Sega should just keep Sonic a light hearted action/comedy where story is concerned. The OTT dramatic stuff should be kept well away from.  Though I think that Shadow The Hedgehog and Sonic '06 put a nail in that coffin anyway.

[Kazhnuz]

Because of a few reason, actually, and a mixt between effect of the problem in the franchise, subjective known bias and the endemic complexity of trying to tie together a media, that by definition is just a way to convey content, and not the description of the content itself.

- First it's a question of culture and generations. There is a "gaming" culture that say what kind of stuff should go with some genre. Sonic play more outside of what many expect from the "mascot-plateformer" genre. So by that, they'll be in more scrutiny, and it also effect what people will find "stupid" or other subjective part like that. For instance, outside of Shadow's objective problem, the difference ambiance in itself or the heavy Serie-B inspiration have been panned, while it wouldn't pose a problem for. Mario's story are always what we expect for Mario (maybe with the exception of the Paper Mario and at first from the Luigi Mansion subserie), so there is less "dafuq is dat" sensations. I think it's also a part of Sonic's appeal, though.

- Moreover, Mario always had the same tone, and didn't go through a lot of changes, creating divisions and different perception of what they should be (meaning that a Sonic game story will always displease at least a part of the fandom).

- There is also an existing perception of the "Sonic lost his way after the megadrive/genesis", which is mostly a result of a "Sega lost his way after the md/gen". So there is already a nostalgic perception of the franchise, creating all the known bias/effects, making many people judge the game according to this pre-existing perception and thus will (not counsciously) search proof of their existing opinion - and it's something that exist in many other domains than just "judging a videogame/book/movie" by the way. And nowadays the same thing is happening instead for the Adventure sub-saga. That doesn't mean that they are wrong about everything they point out (for both sub-franchise), though. And they'll certainly be the same thing in a few years with the 2010-Idontknowwhen era, when SEGA will have again changed their paradigm. Because people work like that, and they're not inherently wrong to work like that (they aren't inherently right too, though). This effect add to the judgement of the story a more negative vision (sometime deserved, though).

- The global game quality also really help. Most people think about "good" and "bad" thing in a whole. They give some kind of global appreciation of the game, and the perceived problem in one part will influence also the rest of the game. It's pretty normal, because our perception of "good" and "bad" is influenced by our emotions, and thoses are affected by the entirety of the experience. We will be more lenient about a less good story in a overall great game, and less lenient in an overall bad game. That's also why we will accept more easily a story of Colors than the one of Forces, for instance. Because Colors is in many aspect a better overall game.

- Mario's story are often inoffensive. They aren't really present, so they won't make people dislike them. Sonic's story are often quite present, so the franchise takes in that more risks. We can see that the Sonic's game like Generations aren't really that criticized, because the problem of the story is that it's pretty non-existant.

- There is also a lot of trouble in the gaming community to understand that there are other things that "OMG EXCEPTIONAL GAME GOTY" or "it's a badgame™", and that there is sometime the just "not bad" games, and that those have a lot of things to offer. But I digress, it's just one of my pet peeves with the gaming community.

- There is also the narrativist vs ludologist question that affect that, and why we might . Is the story more important, or is the gameplay more important (tbh, a big part of the question would immediately become more interesting if we compared them also to IRL games like sport, tabletop RPG and board game. It would also help to understand that "videogame" is too large of a category) ? Many people don't agree with that. And it also effect review, as game themselves doesn't have the same category. It might be the most rational reason here : Sonic games were for a long time more narrativist than Mario games (and even today they are still more), meaning that they'll often be judged with a narrativist perspective, meaning that the story problems will become more relevant. It also mean that they'll please more to a public that is attracted by narrativist franchise, while liking the genre of Sonic.

 

Sorry, that's a lot of thought, not really organized, but I wasn't in the mood of making a big demonstration full of pseudo-philosophical stuff :V

[Splash the Otter]

2 hours ago, Eurisko said:

I've said it for many years now, Sega should just keep Sonic a light hearted action/comedy where story is concerned. The OTT dramatic stuff should be kept well away from.  Though I think that Shadow The Hedgehog and Sonic '06 put a nail in that coffin anyway.

I disagree. I think Sega should take more cues from games like Sonic Adventure and Black Knight.

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, Meta77 said:

Sega is just afraid to try new things storywise. But lord will they shove every dumb mechanic they can into a game aka wisp. 

The Wisps were new though.

1 hour ago, Splash the Otter said:

I disagree. I think Sega should take more cues from games like Sonic Adventure and Black Knight.

That's could be why he specified Shadow's game and 06.

[Meta77]

6 hours ago, Eurisko said:

I've said it for many years now, Sega should just keep Sonic a light hearted action/comedy where story is concerned. The OTT dramatic stuff should be kept well away from.  Though I think that Shadow The Hedgehog and Sonic '06 put a nail in that coffin anyway.

And here lies the problem and why sega will continue to chern out both. I get messages every week from people saying they liked the stories in 06 and shadow and adventure. you know the more series things over the goof fest of colors and generations. At best sega could just make 2 sub series. one with a more series storyline and the other my kid friendly/goofy.

[StaticMania]

That's not what sub-series are for when it comes to video games.

That's what...anything that isn't video games are for.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

And here lies the problem and why sega will continue to chern out both. I get messages every week from people saying they liked the stories in 06 and shadow and adventure. you know the more series things over the goof fest of colors and generations. At best sega could just make 2 sub series. one with a more series storyline and the other my kid friendly/goofy.

You "get" messages?

[Cayenne]

18 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

That’s what I meant by the “world of difference” between them. With the villains, even though the RPG villains are nastier than Bowser, neither are they so nasty they contrast the aesthetics nor does Bowser get a nastiness upgrade. Their presentation is still very, very silly, just crueler than Bowser or other usual villains. Unlike Bowser and co, they can not be agreed with or tamed, but are otherwise similar to him. Sonic baddies, on the other hand, are not only so ugly they contrast the aesthetic of the characters, but usually so cruel and vicious as to make the series overall darker. Eggman is also given a severe vileness boost in many (mainly comic book) adaptations to match.

 

If the Mario RPGs were like Sonic, then the Shroobs would be like reptilian aliens or something. There’s also enough colorful aesthetics and a light overall narrative that makes the dark moments just that, moments. The narrative is still filled with jokes even in its darkest moments, and doesn’t take most things seriously at all. It doesn’t try to hammer in any darkness or drama, with  personal drama between characters sometimes being present, but not cranked up too high. Sonic Lost World is the closest thing to a Mario RPG; villains worse than Eggman but not so evil that they contrast everything else, lots of comedy and bright colors, and a few personal issues between characters. Is that what everyone wants? A better Lost World? 

Here's the thing, though: Many people, including the critics, have different opinions of what is "dark" or not. What is dark for a group may be unintentional comedy for another. Ex: See the general reactions to Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic being shot or kissing Elise in Sonic 06.

If you ask me, for example, I never saw any difference between the tone of the Mario and Sonic franchises, be Lost World or not. The only thing that really makes them different to me is the aesthesics of each one: Mario wants to be a classic cartoon for youngsters and Sonic wants to be a Shonen and a modern cartoon for youngsters.

I don't say this as a detriment to Sonic, though. I love the comics, the lore behind S3&K, Unleashed, Adventure 1, Riders (and even Lost World at certain points!) and I still want (good) new stories. I just don't see these super dark villains and plots that some fans speak about.

 

[Multikaris]

2 hours ago, Cayenne said:

Here's the thing, though: Many people, including the critics, have different opinions of what is "dark" or not. What is dark for a group may be unintentional comedy for another. Ex: See the general reactions to Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic being shot or kissing Elise in Sonic 06.

If you ask me, for example, I never saw any difference between the tone of the Mario and Sonic franchises, be Lost World or not. The only thing that really makes them different to me is the aesthesics of each one: Mario wants to be a classic cartoon for youngsters and Sonic wants to be a Shonen and a modern cartoon for youngsters.

I don't say this as a detriment to Sonic, though. I love the comics, the lore behind S3&K, Unleashed, Adventure 1, Riders (and even Lost World at certain points!) and I still want (good) new stories. I just don't see these super dark villains and plots that some fans speak about.

 

Sonic the Hedgehog, as a franchise, has its own Complete Monster page on TV tropes. You should read through that. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Monster/SonicTheHedgehog

[Fire-N-Space]

Unlike Sonic, the Mario characters personality stay consisted and don't change on a whim from people who dislike a personality.

[Plasme]

I don't think it's true that Mario stories don't get criticised. The sexist and tired damsel in distress plot is often brought up as the one of the franchise's weaknesses, for example. It's just that the stories are usually a very minor aspect of the games, and so their mediocrity isn't such a big deal as when Sonic games make their stories more integral to the game experience.

[Cayenne]

59 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Sonic the Hedgehog, as a franchise, has its own Complete Monster page on TV tropes. You should read through that. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Monster/SonicTheHedgehog

Man, I'm still not convinced. Many of the examples listed look very silly for me (Mephiles, the evil Shadow recolor, takes the crown, though).

To be honest with you, I don't see TV Tropes as a very trustful source for any kind of media. Tropers are known for exaggerating many aspects of their favorite franchises and I saw this in many pages. Sometimes, after reading some articles, I think I watched or played a totally different thing from what they talk about.

In the end, the only thing I can see is a videogame about a hedgehog that goes fast and his colorful friends, but I can understand why others take these stories seriously. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Plasme]

4 minutes ago, Cayenne said:

Man, I'm still not convinced. Many of the examples listed look very silly for me (Mephiles, the evil Shadow recolor, takes the crown, though).

To be honest with you, I don't see TV Tropes as a very trustful source for any kind of media. Tropers are known for exaggerating many aspects of their favorite franchises and I saw this in many pages. Sometimes, after reading some articles, I think I watched or played a totally different thing from what they talk about.

In the end, the only thing I can see is a videogame about a hedgehog that goes fast and his colorful friends, but I can understand why others take these stories seriously. Different strokes for different folks.

 

Gerald wants to commit genocide against the entire human race in Adventure 2 because he has gone insane over the trauma he suffered when Maria was killed at the Space Colony Ark.

That's so obviously trying to be far darker than anything that a conventional platformer like Mario has ever done and that's just on example.

[Tornado]

1 minute ago, Plasme said:

It's just that the stories are usually a very minor aspect of the games, and so their mediocrity isn't such a big deal as when Sonic games make their stories more integral to the game experience.

This is the correct reason. No one gives much of a glance at the Mario stories in the first place because they are nothing more than occasional history nods and flavor text. Sonic tends to try and make the stories the front and center part, so when they fall on their face in the process it's not something that can really be avoided.

[Cayenne]

10 minutes ago, Plasme said:

Gerald wants to commit genocide against the entire human race in Adventure 2 because he has gone insane over the trauma he suffered when Maria was killed at the Space Colony Ark.

That's so obviously trying to be far darker than anything that a conventional platformer like Mario has ever done and that's just on example.

Eh, I'm pretty sure that the plot of Super Paper Mario had something like this. Someone going insane because another one died is a very old trope in many works, be videogames, cartoons or comics. Personally, I wasn't impressed by that.

Again, different strokes for different folks.

[Tornado]

While TV Tropes has a habit of jerking off about things they like so much that they find things that aren't actually present, there really wasn't any ambiguity about Adventure 2's story.

 

There's a very dramatic difference in the tone and presentation of Adventure, Adventure 2, Shadow, STH'06 and Forces (even if the latter three dove deep off the joke end of the spectrum) and anything in any of the Mario RPGs; and about the only way they could be considered the same is if your only experience with both was reading a plot summary.

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, Cayenne said:

Eh, I'm pretty sure that the plot of Super Paper Mario had something like this.

Except nobody actually dies in SPM. The two star-crossed lovers are both alive, just separated (with one having amnesia and being transformed and the other assuming the first is dead). And the game ends with them being reunited, their love saving all worlds, and very strong implications that they get their happy ending together somewhere offscreen.

SA2 has a sick girl get shot by a soldier in a botched raid, and at some point in the future her insane grandfather is presumably executed by the government.

If you don't look deeper than "man mourning loved one tries to destroy everything" they look similar but the details are wildly different.

[StaticMania]

Shallow comparisons.

Only similar on a surface level...