Tails: between success and disservice of the character

[DabigRG]

58 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I think one major issue I had with Tails in Lost World is that the whole "jealousy" angle comes out of nowhere and doesn't make sense, either within its own narrative or within the broader context of the series. Like...

Cutscene: Sonic is resistant to teaming up with Eggman, while Tails just shrugs and doesn't really care either way.

Next Cutscene: "YOU TRUST EGGMAN MORE THAN ME RAAAAAAAGH"

This is called a contrivance. A character just gets upset for the sake of manufactured drama, not because it makes sense in the story. There probably could have been a way to make "Tails is insecure" a sensible plot point; Maybe he tries to fix something earlier in the game and that gets them into trouble. But as it's written, Tails just comes off as petulant and whiny for no good reason.

(I say this as someone who liked Lost World's story inasmuch as I think it wrote Eggman very well. But Tails in that game, hoo boy. He was a mess.)

Frozen Factory in general is weirdly off balance story wise. 

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I think one major issue I had with Tails in Lost World is that the whole "jealousy" angle comes out of nowhere and doesn't make sense, either within its own narrative or within the broader context of the series. Like...

Cutscene: Sonic is resistant to teaming up with Eggman, while Tails just shrugs and doesn't really care either way.

Next Cutscene: "YOU TRUST EGGMAN MORE THAN ME RAAAAAAAGH"

This is called a contrivance. A character just gets upset for the sake of manufactured drama, not because it makes sense in the story. There probably could have been a way to make "Tails is insecure" a sensible plot point; Maybe he tries to fix something earlier in the game and that gets them into trouble. But as it's written, Tails just comes off as petulant and whiny for no good reason.

(I say this as someone who liked Lost World's story inasmuch as I think it wrote Eggman very well. But Tails in that game, hoo boy. He was a mess.)

This is quite literally, everyone's main issue with the story; it's contrived as hell.

Tails being insecure and getting jealous over his position as the tech guy isn't a bad idea in of itself, but how it was done was just very bad and made him look even worse overall.  

[honey-dew]

On 9/25/2019 at 12:50 PM, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

How did the topic shift from Tails to Shadow?

On 9/25/2019 at 5:14 PM, DabigRG said:

As he apparently did before.

Sorry for the late reply, but it wasn't too long ago where many, many people preferred Shadow as a #2 character to Sonic. I don't know if that still holds true today, as I don't really frequent social media, or converse with the fanbase, but during the early 2000s there was a lot of Shadow-ridding.

 

 

On 10/12/2019 at 10:07 AM, Dr. Mechano said:

I think one major issue I had with Tails in Lost World is that the whole "jealousy" angle comes out of nowhere and doesn't make sense, either within its own narrative or within the broader context of the series. Like...

Cutscene: Sonic is resistant to teaming up with Eggman, while Tails just shrugs and doesn't really care either way.

Next Cutscene: "YOU TRUST EGGMAN MORE THAN ME RAAAAAAAGH"

This is called a contrivance. A character just gets upset for the sake of manufactured drama, not because it makes sense in the story. There probably could have been a way to make "Tails is insecure" a sensible plot point; Maybe he tries to fix something earlier in the game and that gets them into trouble. But as it's written, Tails just comes off as petulant and whiny for no good reason.

(I say this as someone who liked Lost World's story inasmuch as I think it wrote Eggman very well. But Tails in that game, hoo boy. He was a mess.)

Can't expect a lot from a children's game (nevertheless Sonic). The point is to sell and forced drama apparently makes things more interesting, even if that means to change the character's character. Just look at pre-genesis wave Archie Sonic.

 

[Dr. Mechano]

2 minutes ago, honey-dew said:

The point is to sell and forced drama apparently makes things more interesting, even if that means to change the character's character. Just look at pre-genesis wave Archie Sonic.

To be fair to Archie, the comics had a lot of different takes on the characters over the years, even before the Genesis wave streamlined everything into being more like the games. The Mike Gallagher era was generally really zany and fun, while Ken Penders really amped up the contrived drama when he took the helm. I feel like Ian Flynn - even years prior to the Genesis wave - did an admirable job finding a happy-medium of stories with stakes and emotional weight that didn't feel forced or contrived, all while still allowing for levity and lighthearted moments as well. I know it's a slight tangent, but yeah: Archie Sonic ran a huge spectrum in terms of how it wrote its characters and world.

And I guess the games are the same way, huh? They too have bounced all over the place in character-writing, and it's been especially pronounced with Tails. The current writers seem intent on making him oddly moody and snarky, which I just don't think fits Tails at all. He was never like that in the older games, and always came off as more levelheaded and thoughtful to me. The way he acts in Lost World, Forces, and even Team Sonic Racing just feels like a bizarre departure from his original portrayal.

[honey-dew]

On 10/16/2019 at 7:13 PM, Dr. Mechano said:

To be fair to Archie, the comics had a lot of different takes on the characters over the years, even before the Genesis wave streamlined everything into being more like the games. The Mike Gallagher era was generally really zany and fun, while Ken Penders really amped up the contrived drama when he took the helm. I feel like Ian Flynn - even years prior to the Genesis wave - did an admirable job finding a happy-medium of stories with stakes and emotional weight that didn't feel forced or contrived, all while still allowing for levity and lighthearted moments as well. I know it's a slight tangent, but yeah: Archie Sonic ran a huge spectrum in terms of how it wrote its characters and world.

And I guess the games are the same way, huh? They too have bounced all over the place in character-writing, and it's been especially pronounced with Tails. The current writers seem intent on making him oddly moody and snarky, which I just don't think fits Tails at all. He was never like that in the older games, and always came off as more levelheaded and thoughtful to me. The way he acts in Lost World, Forces, and even Team Sonic Racing just feels like a bizarre departure from his original portrayal.

Well, I admit I am being pretty biased against Archie Comics, since, I for one, haven't read the comics in a long time. But I do recall that the "drama" aspects were a huge turn off for me, and wholly exemplify bad characterization at its finest, as altering characters original personalities in such a drastic way brings a disservice to the plot. And like you said, same with the games. The moments where Tails and Sonic argue about Eggman in Lost World, don't seem like it would fit their original characterizations, especially since Eggman has been their enemy since the series conception. But then again, I felt that Tails may have been insulted moreso because he felt that Sonic undermined his intelligence(?) But even so, like you said, Tails used to seem so much more level-headed...

Anyways, I don't hate all drama. Something has to make certain plots viable and interesting. However forced, heavy drama, or drama in a place where it does not belong is extremely unwarranted. This isn't some fanfiction.

[Dr. Mechano]

10 minutes ago, honey-dew said:

The moments where Tails and Sonic argue about Eggman in Lost World, don't seem like it would fit their original characterizations, especially since Eggman has been their enemy since the series conception.

More to the point, Sonic and Eggman (along with Tails, since he's the subject here) have teamed up plenty of times before Lost World. It should almost be routine by now, and not warrant this sort of argument.

In SA2, when Eggman led the operation to shut down the Eclipse Cannon, Tails didn't get all huffy and insist that Sonic wasn't trusting him to do it. He followed Eggman's lead and even helped direct over the radio during Eggman's own segment. Tails didn't turn a world-saving truce into his own personal ego trip in SA2, and if the writers knew his character better, he wouldn't have in Lost World either.

[Ivo-goji]

Lost World did the complete opposite of what I would expect with Tails getting jealous of Sonic and Eggman.  Shouldn't Sonic be jealous of Eggman and Tails?  That's the direction Chronicles ran with.

[DabigRG]

8 minutes ago, honey-dew said:

Well, I admit I am being pretty biased against Archie Comics, since, I for one, haven't read the comics in a long time. But I do recall that the "drama" aspects were a huge turn off for me, and wholly exemplify bad characterization at its finest, as altering characters original personalities in such a drastic way brings a disservice to the plot. And like you said, same with the games. The moments where Tails and Sonic argue about Eggman in Lost World, don't seem like it would fit their original characterizations, especially since Eggman has been their enemy since the series conception. But then again, I felt that Tails may have been insulted moreso because he felt that Sonic undermined his intelligence(?) But even so, like you said, Tails used to seem so much more level-headed...

The thing that should probably be remembered about Archie and Pontac&Graff respectively is that:.

• Archie had been going on since before SatAM proper got rolling, which meant it started with and developed with versions of the characters and franchise that didn't always gel with what SonicTeam would establish as the status quo five years later. Foundational headwriters Micheal Gallagher and Ken Penders weren't into the [region specific version of the] games that served as the source material and as such had to operate both on what their styles were and whatever Sega provided for them to work with.
• Mr. Pontac and Graff are TV writers with a penchant for absurdism and comedy that just so happened to turn in a prompt/script that SonicTeam liked and so just operated on that in combination of what they personally researched about the series plus whatever Sega wanted from that particular story. Not unlike what Archie had done before, now that I think about it, except with far more of a background and oversight to work under.

To hover on what I specifically what to say though, the latter actually isn't that out of reason on paper and even had precedent established in prior games. The problem was that the pacing, tone, and focus for the story was off.

11 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

More to the point, Sonic and Eggman (along with Tails, since he's the subject here) have teamed up plenty of times before Lost World. It should almost be routine by now, and not warrant this sort of argument.

In SA2, when Eggman led the operation to shut down the Eclipse Cannon, Tails didn't get all huffy and insist that Sonic wasn't trusting him to do it. He followed Eggman's lead and even helped direct over the radio during Eggman's own segment. Tails didn't turn a world-saving truce into his own personal ego trip in SA2, and if the writers knew his character better, he wouldn't have in Lost World either.

It's important to note that Tails wasn't too bothered about the Zeti situation either at first. He just became hostile with Eggman after a bit for reasons they didn't establish. 

10 minutes ago, Ivo-goji said:

Lost World did the complete opposite of what I would expect with Tails getting jealous of Sonic and Eggman.  Shouldn't Sonic be jealous of Eggman and Tails?  That's the direction Chronicles ran with.

Really?

[Almar]

The problem with Tails is they're just trying to pull a Luigi with him (that is, present him as more obviously flawed compared to Sonic) but repeatedly fail to so. Namely since the devs refuse to hold solid standards for how they depict the characters.

[DabigRG]

15 hours ago, Almar said:

The problem with Tails is they're just trying to pull a Luigi with him (that is, present him as more obviously flawed compared to Sonic) but repeatedly fail to so. Namely since the devs refuse to hold solid standards for how they depict the characters.

Which is funny considering Sonic is also meant to be different from seeming ideal hero Mario. 

[Guergy]

Maybe they are not so different? 

[DabigRG]

13 hours ago, Guergy said:

Maybe they are not so different? 

Uh, how so?

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Uh, how so?

Tails is a coward, a mechanic, and afraid of lightning.

Luigi is a coward, a mechanic, and controls lightning.

[DabigRG]

43 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Tails is a coward, a mechanic, and afraid of lightning.

Luigi is a coward, a mechanic, and controls lightning.

Oh, I thought he was talking about Mario and Sonic.

Eh, timid/skittish is a better word.

[Splash the Otter]

On 10/23/2019 at 6:55 PM, StaticMania said:

Tails is a coward, a mechanic, and afraid of lightning.

Luigi is a coward, a mechanic, and controls lightning.

Tails is not a coward!

[StaticMania]

Yeah, ok.

[Kuzu]

I mean, he shows a pretty reasonable amount of fear to things.

[Zaysho]

He's eight. It's pretty normal he'd have moments like that.

[Tornado]

I'm not saying Tails is a coward.

 

But if Eggman gave him a mansion he wouldn't go in it unless Sonic took point.

[DabigRG]

5 minutes ago, Tornado said:

I'm not saying Tails is a coward.

 

But if Eggman gave him a mansion he wouldn't go in it unless Sonic took point.

That's because he's smart.

[thumbs13]

Tails has never really been a coward. He was scared at the idea of Shadow's ghost coming back to haunt him in Heroes, but I can't actually think of any other examples of him really being scared.

[StaticMania]

6 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Tails has never really been a coward. He was scared at the idea of Shadow's ghost coming back to haunt him in Heroes, but I can't actually think of any other examples of him really being scared.

He's scared of lightning, the easy-man's fear....

If you're character is scared of that, they're a coward.

[Diogenes]

He's afraid of lightning, though it doesn't come up much. Also he was afraid to fight Eggman alone in SA.

[Kuzu]

Tails has low esteem, and can only psych himself up in specific circumstances.

I don't think its wrong to call him a coward, even if its basic self preservation. But the gist is that he's not as self confident or impulsively reckless as Sonic tends to be.

[Wraith]

As much as I love to male fun of tails I dont consider a basic self preservation instinct or personal phobias cowardly. 

 

I dont even really consider Luigi a coward though. You guys can fuck around and say you'd go ghost hunting by yourself but we all know the truth.