Tails: between success and disservice of the character

[dbzfan7]

3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

And what is that?

And contest Sonic on something, do something funny, act as a challenge mode, or otherwise punch a wall/enemy for old times sake. 

Being his own hero. Obtaining Sonic's bravery. Helping people not just like how he does with Sonic, but his own way. Using his own technological know how to create a better future, etc. Just a few off the top of my head without living deep to other canons.

That's pretending Sega would care to let him do anything but explain something, and act stupid. So basically just like Tails. Explain something and not much else.

[Kuzu]

12 minutes ago, Strickerx5 said:

I wouldn't say skimping on story details and characters is what led these games to be good at all. More that the teams involved with the other factors of the game did their job and people took note of it. That still doesn't mean that others didn't take note of the writing team's consistent failures. And that's not even getting into how titles like Gens and Colors (the latter of which having its own issues outside of story to begin with) are going on a decade old and are still really the only examples of this ever being the case. Though, we're now getting mainline games that don't do anything beyond the soundtrack well... and even that's debatable depending on who you ask.

Even with Mania I still argue that its entire game was more about emulation rather than pushing anything forward like the classics actually did. It didn't have a narrative because the classics, going by today's standards, didn't either. Completely ignoring the fact that 3&K was very ahead of its time with how it showed progression with the tech it had.

 

Eh, but honestly. I'm getting really off topic here. My point is that Tails, in the hands of better writers, can go back to actually being enjoyable to watch even if ST continue to not want to use him in actual gameplay. It's pretty clear here that a lot of people generally aren't happy with where he and the rest of the cast currently are and its also clear that simply cutting characters or dumbing down the plot aren't that helpful either.

Hence why I said they aren't "perfect". There's never going to be a Sonic game that hits a note for everybody, because the fans cannot agree on what to prioritize. Even now people are disagreeing whether cutting the cast is a good or bad thing regardless of it actually benefitting anything.

That being said, you can only go by public recognition and critical reception. Regardless of how you feel about Mania, or Colors or Generations. The fact they have been publicly well recieved is something to take note of and perhaps something worth looking into?

I'm not saying cutting characters is going to solve all of the problems, and I'm not saying the writing has neccesarily improved since they started focusing on just Sonic, and Tails. 

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

The thing is SEGA/Sonic Team I don't think are even trying to look for the ultimate Sonic engine/base for the series. In fact I think they actively enjoy consistently changing it instead of trying to perfect ANYTHING because they get bored and keep on wanting to try new ideas regardless of the results. Meaning this concept that we should wait for them to get the fundamentals for the series right first never will even happen... and even if it did, it would probably only last a few games at most before they toss it all out again because of boredom.

Then why expect them to get anything right? They'll keep shitting up the characters just like they have been, and then shit them up in all new ways. Hardly any point in bringing the characters back if they're just going to be awful forever.

[dbzfan7]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Then why expect them to get anything right? They'll keep shitting up the characters just like they have been, and then shit them up in all new ways. Hardly any point in bringing the characters back if they're just going to be awful forever.

So let's just have Mania styled games with more characters and short cartoons like they have done. More characters. Simple story. Good gameplay. We all win. Well we do if we just ditch 3D Sonic entirely.

[Strickerx5]

1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Hence why I said they aren't "perfect". There's never going to be a Sonic game that hits a note for everybody, because the fans cannot agree on what to prioritize. Even now people are disagreeing whether cutting the cast is a good or bad thing regardless of it actually benefitting anything.

That being said, you can only go by public recognition and critical reception. Regardless of how you feel about Mania, or Colors or Generations. The fact they have been publicly well recieved is something to take note of and perhaps something worth looking into?

I'm not saying cutting characters is going to solve all of the problems, and I'm not saying the writing has neccesarily improved since they started focusing on just Sonic, and Tails. 

Yes, it is, but not for the matter at hand. To my knowledge, I don't remember a single review praising these games for their lackluster story or even lack there of. Honestly, the only thing I do remember are people making fun of how cheesy lines like "No copyright law in the universe is going to stop me!" were.

Those games were rightfully praised for their gameplay among other things. We're talking characters and narrative here. You should be able to have good gameplay along with a good narrative. Tails absolute dependence on Sonic has no bearing on whether the level design of a game is fleshed out or something. You might argue which one is more important, but I'm not in that business as I'd rather just have good content whenever possible. Especially in a topic where the OP is well past that question to begin with.

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

So let's just have Mania styled games with more characters and short cartoons like they have done. More characters. Simple story. Good gameplay. We all win. Well we do if we just ditch 3D Sonic entirely.

As long as they can keep the same core team members on board, yes, a Mania sequel with more characters would likely turn out fine.

I'd really prefer if that wasn't all Sonic ended up being, and that Sonic Team got their shit together (or got replaced by people who don't suck) so we can actually get a good 3D Sonic for once, though.

[DabigRG]

9 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

 Obtaining Sonic's bravery.

"Obtaining Sonic's bravery"...what is that, a cologne?

9 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

 Helping people not just like how he does with Sonic, but his own way. Using his own technological know how to create a better future, etc.

Okay, now you're talkin about something.

The Wisp translator is a start; maybe they can have him create some new mode of transportation or energy renewal next.

9 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

That's pretending Sega would care to let him do anything but explain something, and act stupid. So basically just like Tails. Explain something and not much else.

Oh no, but you see, there's a key difference: Tails is Sonic's sidekick and little ward; Knuckles is Sonic's rival and fighting buddy. 

That factoid alone, simple as it may be, guarantees that he'd at least say things and sometimes do things that Tails wouldn't/couldn't. In addition to, you know, his personality.

 

[dbzfan7]

10 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

As long as they can keep the same core team members on board, yes, a Mania sequel with more characters would likely turn out fine.

I'd really prefer if that wasn't all Sonic ended up being, and that Sonic Team got their shit together (or got replaced by people who don't suck) so we can actually get a good 3D Sonic for once, though.

I mean I love Mania and wouldn't mind any of this honestly, but I know plenty who still really want a good 3D title. But I have a hard time feeling we will get one that makes everyone happy.

7 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

"Obtaining Sonic's bravery"...what is that, a cologne?

Okay, now you're talkin about something.

The Wisp translator is a start; maybe they can have him create some new mode of transportation or energy renewal next.

Oh no, but you see, there's a key difference: Tails is Sonic's sidekick and little ward; Knuckles is Sonic's rival and fighting buddy. 

That factoid alone, simple as it may be, guarantees that he'd at least say things and sometimes do things that Tails wouldn't/couldn't. In addition to, you know, his personality.

 

If it were it probably smells bad.

Well his future goal is way bigger than that is more closure than anything else.

It's Knuckles stupidity that Sega believes everyone likes. So really if he tried to fight he'd trip over his own feet or believe everything anyone tells him ever.

[Wraith]

If they were to tell a full fledged story they need more moving parts than the three simplest characters in the franchise. That much was obvious years ago. 

 Whether that comes in the form of old or new characters is whatever. Just give me something with some meat. 

[Sean]

Honestly I just liked Tails better when he was Sonic's tagalong sidekick with similar abilities plus flight. It's not what I wanted him to be forever (I enjoyed his development and role in the Adventure games) but the technological genius NPC angle they've been pushing for years doesn't do anything for me. I don't care about his IQ or inventions or snarky comebacks to Sonic's jokes, I just want to run around with him in the same levels that Sonic does. I always felt that Ian did such a good job with him, balancing his natural abilities and tactician prowess while not forgetting his capability on the front lines alongside Sonic.

[DabigRG]

56 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

 

It's Knuckles stupidity that Sega believes everyone likes. So really if he tried to fight he'd trip over his own feet or believe everything anyone tells him ever.

Eh, you say that, but Team Sonic Racing, Mania, Runners(?), and even Forces to an extent says otherwise. 

I mean, sure, there's Boom, but then Boom was made under different developers.

 

Sustantively though, Knuckles is the tough guy of the cast.

[Badnik Zero]

All this makes me realize Tails never really had an arc... like in the past 18 years.

Characters in this series seem to get their arc upon introduction, but they never go beyond that. They also never get retired. They just kinda fade to the background. Given his place next to Sonic, that won’t happen to Tails. Tails just needs a new development arc. He most likely gets that by being playable. But Tails is also the least exciting choice out of the most likely candidates for playable.

[dbzfan7]

Just now, DabigRG said:

Eh, you say that, but Team Sonic Racing, Mania, Runners(?), and even Forces to an extent says otherwise. 

I mean, sure, there's Boom, but then Boom was made under different developers.

 

Sustantively though, Knuckles is the tough guy of the cast.

Yeah the big tough stupid one. There's always the pretty one, the freaky one with the weird power, and the big tough stupid one. He fits with Tails and Amy as misfit minions of Sonic XP

Just now, Badnik Zero said:

He most likely gets that by being playable. But Tails is also the least exciting choice out of the most likely candidates for playable.

You take that back. Flying and bending levels to your whim is way better than just gliding and being another Sonic XP

[DabigRG]

2 minutes ago, Badnik Zero said:

All this makes me realize Tails never really had an arc... like in the past 18 years.

Characters in this series seem to get their arc upon introduction, but they never go beyond that. They also never get retired. They just kinda fade to the background. Given his place next to Sonic, that won’t happen to Tails. Tails just needs a new development arc. He most likely gets that by being playable. 

Uh, define arc.

 

2 minutes ago, Badnik Zero said:

But Tails is also the least exciting choice out of the most likely candidates for playable.

Tails is the least exciting choice for a number of things.

[StaticMania]

12 minutes ago, Sean said:

Honestly I just liked Tails better when he was Sonic's tagalong sidekick with similar abilities plus flight. It's not what I wanted him to be forever (I enjoyed his development and role in the Adventure games) but the technological genius NPC angle they've been pushing for years doesn't do anything for me. I don't care about his IQ or inventions or snarky comebacks to Sonic's jokes, I just want to run around with him in the same levels that Sonic does. I always felt that Ian did such a good job with him, balancing his natural abilities and tactician prowess while not forgetting his capability on the front lines alongside Sonic.

This only really seems to go for the game-play angle.

Character wise, it leaves him pretty static. Which, I'm fine with, but it wasn't really "good" during those times.

[Sean]

The thing about Sonic and his friends is that I mostly just want to actually play as them. If they're cutscene-only, then they might as well not be in the game for me, since I never watch cutscenes on repeat playthroughs anymore. I care more about being able to play as Tails, Knuckles, and Amy again than I do about the series improving its writing and characterization. I have nothing really to say about how Sega can improve the characters in a story context since I don't believe they have the chops for it.

Besides, I don't like modern Tails, he's kind of a prick. He was more adorable back in the classic/Adventure/Heroes era

[dbzfan7]

Blah. You all who say boring or bland or least interesting just don't have an high enough IQ to understand the greatness that is Tails. Cause dontcha know you need a high IQ to understand Tails, just like Rick & Morty. 

[Wraith]

I care more about mechanics than story but it ends up being the same conversation about how its too much work to add other characters.

[Badnik Zero]

21 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

You take that back. Flying and bending levels to your whim is way better than just gliding and being another Sonic XP

I don’t mean gameplay. I mean that other candidates for playable characters have something epic attached to them.

Guardian of the ME, last of his kind. Artificial life form, ultimate life form. Hedgehog from the future, etc...

Tails is just Tails, the smart guy. It could be made interesting in the right game, but I think Sega would rather invent a whole new character before giving Tails an arc. Nothing epic about Tails, and Sega likes to surprise with new additions. 

The thing Tails has going for him is his classic appeal however. Someone in here mentioned that he is the Player 2. Damn right. The appeal of that should not be underestimated by Sonic Team (but it will be).

19 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Uh, define arc.

Tails is the least exciting choice for a number of things.

Story arc. Tails doesn’t have a story of his own, he only has Sonic’s story. Knuckles has the story of his tribe, his island, the Emerald, and a water god. Shadow is entangled with the Robotnik family, and military groups, and aliens.

Tails follows Sonic. He has no history, except that one day he met Sonic and goes on adventures with him. No story arc of his own, save for his independence arc from SA1 and SA2. Actually this goes for all characters. I don’t expect development for anyone, as long as those characters remain setpieces in a Sonic-only story.

 

[dbzfan7]

6 minutes ago, Badnik Zero said:

I don’t mean gameplay. I mean other candidates for playable characters have something epic attached to them.

Guardian of the ME, last of his kind. Artificial life form, ultimate life form. Hedgehog from the future, etc...

Tails is just Tails, the smart guy. It could be made interesting in the right game, but I think Sega would rather invent a whole new character before giving Tails an arc. Nothing epic about Tails, and Sega likes to surprise with new additions. 

The thing Tails has going for him is his classic appeal however. Someone in here mentioned that he is the Player 2. Damn right. The appeal of that should not be underestimated by Sonic Team (but it will be).

All stories we've actually had been done already. Tails is literally a bully victim child orphan who rose above his past to become a side kick and hero. A actual RELATABLE thing. Relating to any of the others is difficult. A young kid never given a chance, bullied, rising above it, etc. That's parallel to so many kids in life. There's a down to earth relatable protagonist story with Tails the others don't have. You say epic which sure there is, but epic doesn't automatically mean good. People tend to care more about down to earth characters doing big things, especially bigger than they can handle, over just being an epic brawler or super power who tend to dwarf their opposition.

But yeah they won't because they don't really care about him.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, dbzfan7 said:

Yeah the big tough stupid one. There's always the pretty one, the freaky one with the weird power, and the big tough stupid one. He fits with Tails and Amy as misfit minions of Sonic XP

Hey, Amy and Tails are comic relief and techno babble and you know it.

1 hour ago, dbzfan7 said:

Blah. You all who say boring or bland or least interesting just don't have an high enough IQ to understand the greatness that is Tails. Cause dontcha know you need a high IQ to understand Tails, just like Rick & Morty. 

Except without the humor, vulgarity, and intrigue.

1 hour ago, Badnik Zero said:

I don’t mean gameplay. I mean that other candidates for playable characters have something epic attached to them.

Guardian of the ME, last of his kind. Artificial life form, ultimate life form. Hedgehog from the future, etc...

Tails is just Tails, the smart guy. It could be made interesting in the right game, but I think Sega would rather invent a whole new character before giving Tails an arc. Nothing epic about Tails, and Sega likes to surprise with new additions. 

 

Well, that's one way to put it, I suppose.

1 hour ago, Badnik Zero said:

The thing Tails has going for him is his classic appeal however. Someone in here mentioned that he is the Player 2. Damn right. The appeal of that should not be underestimated by Sonic Team (but it will be).

 

That is another critical factor.

1 hour ago, Badnik Zero said:

 

Story arc. Tails doesn’t have a story of his own, he only has Sonic’s story. Knuckles has the story of his tribe, his island, the Emerald, and a water god. Shadow is entangled with the Robotnik family, and military groups, and aliens.

Tails follows Sonic. He has no history, except that one day he met Sonic and goes on adventures with him. No story arc of his own, save for his independence arc from SA1 and SA2. Actually this goes for all characters. I don’t expect development for anyone, as long as those characters remain setpieces in a Sonic-only story.

 

 

1 hour ago, dbzfan7 said:

 Tails is literally a bully victim child orphan who rose above his past to become a side kick and hero. A actual RELATABLE thing. Relating to any of the others is difficult. A young kid never given a chance, bullied, rising above it, etc. That's parallel to so many kids in life.

Yeah, I was about to bring that up.

[dbzfan7]

5 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Hey, Amy and Tails are comic relief and techno babble and you know it.

Except without the humor, vulgarity, and intrigue.

Amy is the pretty one, hence her personality most of the time. Tails is the freaky one with the weird power, which is nonsensical flying and hyper intelligence at a young age. Knuckles it the big tough stupid one. The misfit minions.

I'll have you know the humor is just too highly intellectual for you to pick up on. Clearly. And Vulgarity...look no further than the butthole in Sonic Advance 3...so vulgar. Intrigue...ya mean the cutest S.O.B ever, who despite apparently being boring has the most ships and girlfriends overall somehow. Take out your gloves, we need to settle this like civilized gentle folk. 3 paces, turn, then we slap!

[DabigRG]

With that said

1 hour ago, dbzfan7 said:

All stories we've actually had been done already. There's a down to earth relatable protagonist story with Tails the others don't have. You say epic which sure there is, but epic doesn't automatically mean good. People tend to care more about down to earth characters doing big things, especially bigger than they can handle, over just being an epic brawler or super power who tend to dwarf their opposition.

But yeah they won't because they don't really care about him.

So, there are two main issues with this off the top of my head:

1. Amy, maybe Cream, and to a certain extent Blaze exist. Charmy and Marine could always get some similar background on an off chance, but yeah, those three.
2. Sonic is about speed and adventure first and foremost. Action and drama are somewhat secondary to that, but everything else is second. Tails's troubled childhood is very unlikely to come into play. 
3. We know by now that SEGA doesn't seem to like doing backstory that much. Shadow and Chaos are definitely the exceptions.

[Badnik Zero]

6 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Yeah, I was about to bring that up.

What game does this happen in?

[DabigRG]

1 minute ago, dbzfan7 said:

 

I'll have you know the humor is just too highly intellectual for you to pick up on. Clearly. And Vulgarity...look no further than the butthole in Sonic Advance 3...so vulgar. 

I mean I haven't watch Rick and Morty much passively, but I have seen and heard enough to make that comment.

2 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

 Intrigue...ya mean the cutest S.O.B ever, who despite apparently being boring has the most ships and girlfriends overall somehow.

Okay, I think I need to look up the word intrigue to be sure I have a grasp on assessing something like this adequately.

Also, what?

2 minutes ago, Badnik Zero said:

What game does this happen in?

I think it's one of the Sonic 2 manuals. Sonic X also references this at one point as further set up with the SA1 flashback.