Tails: between success and disservice of the character

[dbzfan7]

1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

With that said

So, there are two main issues with this off the top of my head:

1. Amy, maybe Cream, and to a certain extent Blaze exist. Charmy and Marine could always get some similar background on an off chance, but yeah, those three.
2. Sonic is about speed and adventure first and foremost. Action and drama are somewhat secondary to that, but everything else is second. Tails's troubled childhood is very unlikely to come into play. 
3. We know by now that SEGA doesn't seem to like doing backstory that much. Shadow and Chaos are definitely the exceptions.

Amy kinda, though maybe for the female demographic. Cream....not really. She's super polite, not really troubled all that much and usually is out of conflict. Blaze is a princess and her troubles aren't exactly relatable. Charmy perhaps I can see as a kid wanting to be like the adults. Marine....considering her reception I would think people try to avoid her.

Well so is most story beats in a nutshell when it comes to Sonic so...it's really everyones problem.

I mean they did Infinites Backstory and....yeah the less we talk about it the better.

1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

Okay, I think I need to look up the word intrigue to be sure I have a grasp on assessing something like this adequately.

Also, what?

I mean I'm not really a fan of the decision, but for some reason if we combine the Sonic canons, Tails has the most girlfriend/relationships...somehow. It's weird....but apparently boring means you get...girls?

[DabigRG]

24 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

Amy kinda, though maybe for the female demographic. Cream....not really. She's super polite, not really troubled all that much and usually is out of conflict. Blaze is a princess and her troubles aren't exactly relatable. Charmy perhaps I can see as a kid wanting to be like the adults. Marine....considering her reception I would think people try to avoid her.

Oops, hehe. It seems I overthought and/or complicated the matter again. I thinking of any combination of characters who are relatively normal, have grounded mindsets, and/or have troubled upbringings. The latter obviously is only confirmed to be shared by Blaze.

Amy and Cream are relatively normal though, aside from their obvious capabilities. I also considered throwing in Big, but then I remembered that he's simply natural.

28 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

 

I mean they did Infinites Backstory and....yeah the less we talk about it the better.

 

Infinite, much like many things about Forces, feels like a hasty over correction to people's complaints about Lost World.

The Deadly Six(most of them anyway) didn't have much backstory, threat, or even presence in the story? Where here's Infinite and his darker & edgier presentation, theme song lyrics, and a troubled backstory in a DLC.

It might go too far and not fit well with the lyrics or even the main game, but here it is. With "interest!"

32 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

 

I mean I'm not really a fan of the decision, but for some reason if we combine the Sonic canons, Tails has the most girlfriend/relationships...somehow. It's weird....but apparently boring means you get...girls?

Well as (Caterkiller) brought up, he has been around far longer than any other character besides Sonic & Eggman.

Also, when some of us say he's boring, we're talking about how he is portrayed to us as viewers and/or fans. Don't get that confused, even if your notion is confusing in itself.

[dbzfan7]

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Oops, hehe. It seems I overthought and/or complicated the matter again. I thinking of any combination of characters who are relatively normal, have grounded mindsets, and/or have troubled upbringings. The latter obviously is only confirmed to be shared by Blaze.

Amy and Cream are relatively normal though, aside from their obvious capabilities. I also considered throwing in Big, but then I remembered that he's simply natural.

Infinite, much like many things about Forces, feels like a hasty over correction to people's complaints about Lost World.

The Deadly Six(most of them anyway) didn't have much backstory, threat, or even presence in the story? Where here's Infinite and his darker & edgier presentation, theme song lyrics, and a troubled backstory in a DLC.

It might go too far and not fit well with the lyrics or even the main game, but here it is. With "interest!"

Well as (Caterkiller) brought up, he has been around far longer than any other character besides Sonic & Eggman.

Also, when some of us say he's boring, we're talking about how he is portrayed to us as viewers and/or fans. Don't get that confused, even if your notion is confusing in itself.

To a degree. Though for Blaze she is a princess who had trust issues, had the character arc, and then was honestly boring in Rush Adventure as she had no real arc or story there, as Marine got all of it.

Amy I can see, though for me as a male and her character not being all that deep (As most Sonic Characters), her appeal feels closer to female relation. Though I could say perhaps being ignored is relatable to all, but she tends to be mostly cause her way of getting noticed isn't appealing to other characters. Cream is normal...and really that's it.

I can't deny he's boring sometimes. I mean I get bored during games where all he does is exposit and nothing else.

[Kuzu]

They're not going to tell a full fledged story and even if they did, they are terrible at it.

 

So yea, just...make Tails and Knuckles playable and call it a day.

[dbzfan7]

4 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

They're not going to tell a full fledged story and even if they did, they are terrible at it.

 

So yea, just...make Tails and Knuckles playable and call it a day.

Not enough characters for people. Let's make YOU playable. What are your running and parkour skills?

[Mountaindewandsprite]

All that character development in the Sonic Adventure game only to be unraveled. It's sad that the only form of media you get to see characters like Tails and Knuckles at their greatest potential is in comics and/or fanmade projects.

[StaticMania]

Only 4 characters got any development in both Adventure Games.

So no big loss there.

[Red Hot Jack]

There is nothing wrong with other characters appearing, like, for real? Must we do this? But it's obvious that, since Tails and Knuckles are main characters, they need to have priority, I would also add Amy to the team because yeah, I want her to be in Mania 2/Next Classic.

And I'm gonna repeat myself that Tails needs to be his own person, a Genius, and not a Sonic follower or a Sonic-like hero, but a hero of his own, it's really better that way. In Classic games obviously all players have similar gameplay, but IF he were playable again in a 3D game, he should have a different gameplay to fit his evolution, puzzle gameplay that takes advantage of his skills like flight and interacting with machines, use his creations like Mecha Tails or T-Pup from Tails Adventure, the Tornado, the Submarine, etc. in fact I would love another Tails focused game.

[Dr. Detective]

I've ranted about it plenty of times so I probably could scour this board and just copy and paste what I've said before but I'll just reiterate that I still think Boom Tails is the best he's ever been. Fun and child-like with a relatable sense of doubt and low self-esteem coupled with the drive to showcase what he's made of underneath it all and a genuine excitement and love for what he does.

The excentric nature of that show pushed the others to the point of exaggeration a tad but since Tails was so subdued in the games it actually pushed him into being perfect to me.

I still remember how floored I was by the "Translate This" episode of Boom, the 3rd episode, where his love for creating starts it off, only for it to fail and for the seeds of doubt to set in, only for him to brilliantly use the flaw in the device he made to his advantage at the end.

That was a genuine showcase of him being intelligent and adorable without harping on fake shit like him just bragging about the most exaggerated impossible stuff you can think of like Laundry detergent and a toothpick making a super computer or whatever. The actual comedy focused show managed to exemplify what it meant for Tails to be a genius better than Lost World did. Its a shame he's gone now.

I'll also add that while I hated Colors story and the way Tails was portrayed within it, I didn't have a problem with the idea of Sonic protecting Tails the way he did. My issue was mostly that the thing he was protecting him from wasn't threatening and throughout the game the narrative was basically conditioning me to think nothing really mattered or was really all that serious to warrant it. The tone didn't really know how to shift from comedy to serious all that well. Its fine if you want to have both in there, which it did a few times. Thats how most adventure stories work but you've gotta handle it better than what Colors did.

I couldn't take the confrontation with the Egg Nega Wisp seriously at all. Even chuckled when Tails let out that overdramatic, "Sonic! NOOOO!" when he pushed him back in that elevator. 

It might have actually been stronger than the Egg Walker that Tails fought on his lonesome in Adventure but it certainly didn't feel that way. How things are emotionally portrayed goes a long way as well. 

However, as for the very act of Sonic protecting him, that's fine. When I noticed Sonic keeping his hand back to shield Tails while he was gloating at Eggman, I even thought it was kind of cute. I just wish it had felt more earned.

After Eggman's lame mind-control canon (that couldn't even hold Tails in its grasp past 2 minutes with two full tankers of energy) got destroyed when a robot part from the very first boss in the game caused it to explode the instant he decided to fire it... expecting me to take the half-finished jellyfish robot that ran of the same energy seriously just wasn't going to happen.

[Kuzu]

I feel like every time this topic comes up, we're just repeating what we always say except nobody is willing to compromise on anything so we just end up going in circles.

 

So to add something to that; Tails sucks, and nobody knows how to make him unsuck.

[DabigRG]

7 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Only 4 characters got any development in both Adventure Games.

So no big loss there.

Only four?

[Dr. Detective]

Whether you're on the side of the story and characters getting better treatment or just caring that they're playable it kind of feels like we're mostly just landing on the side of not expecting either of these things getting better.

I will say that, between the two choices, I do care a bit less about actually playing as them than I do making sure they actually have a well handled, defined character. If I don't care about the character I'm controlling, I really might as well just be playing as a Robo-Sonic with Tails' abilities instead. 

I'll never prefer that over Tails, of course, but having actual character in my character goes a long way. 

Not that we should have to choose between the two. I don't get why both concepts can't be good like it is in normal video games but Sonic doesn't want that I guess.

[StaticMania]

4 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Only four?

Yes only four.

Sa1: Tails, Amy & Gamma

Sa2: Shadow

Big and Knuckles' stories in Sa1 are closer to character studies and just reaffirming how they already are.

Sonic is just another basic Adventure for him.

Rouge, Eggman, Amy, Knuckles, & Sonic all stay pretty much the same in Sa2.

It would be wrong to call what happens with Tails does at the end development since it comes out of nowhere.

Some would say it's solidifying his arc from Sa1, but I feel it belongs more in Lost World considering the whole "trust" thing.

[BaronGrackle]

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

Sonic is just another basic Adventure for him.

Is this the right place to point out that Sonic the Hedgehog never receives character development, never undergoes a story arc in any of the games, and could be argued as the least interesting character in the franchise from the release of Sonic 2 until present day?

[StaticMania]

Sonic doesn't need character development, so...you can say whatever you want about that.

[BaronGrackle]

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Sonic doesn't need character development, so...you can say whatever you want about that.

I mean, to be honest? Sonic's greatest story arc might be in Sonic Mania Plus. He starts out edgy as always with his new Drop Dash, but eventually learns through cheating that he can balance this with his SCD and S3&K abilities.

Spin Dash, Peel Out, Insta-Shield, Drop Dash, Tails-Flight-Assist, and tagging out in Mania mode? Now THAT'S my idea of a well-developed Sonic.

[DabigRG]

15 hours ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

All that character development in the Sonic Adventure game only to be unraveled. It's sad that the only form of media you get to see characters like Tails and Knuckles at their greatest potential is in comics and/or fanmade projects.

To be fair, it's not like it was immediately thrown away entirely so much as because there were other things going on and he wasn't much of the focus.

Really, it's because of Forces that this concern is even really grounded.

2 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Yes only four.

Sa1: Tails, Amy & Gamma

Sa2: Shadow

Big and Knuckles' stories in Sa1 are closer to character studies and just reaffirming how they already are.

Sonic is just another basic Adventure for him.

Rouge, Eggman, Amy, Knuckles, & Sonic all stay pretty much the same in Sa2.

It would be wrong to call what happens with Tails does at the end development since it comes out of nowhere.

Some would say it's solidifying his arc from Sa1, but I feel it belongs more in Lost World considering the whole "trust" thing.

Hm...I mean there's also Rouge going from caring only about what she can take away to genuinely caring about Shadow and the Earth. Also, becoming a legit agent rather than a convenient outsource.

I see what you mean with Knuckles and Big, though.

32 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

Is this the right place to point out that Sonic the Hedgehog never receives character development, never undergoes a story arc in any of the games, and could be argued as the least interesting character in the franchise from the release of Sonic 2 until present day?

Sonic is apparently what's call a Flat Character Arc.Who he is, what he's about, and what he believes in are already in place--it's up to the story itself to test and challenge it.

[StaticMania]

Just now, DabigRG said:

Hm...I mean there's also Rouge going from caring only about what she can take away to genuinely caring about Shadow and the Earth. Also, becoming a legit agent rather than a convenient outsource.

I mean, that's just her doing her job.

I was about to call it a sudden change of heart, but it's just basic questioning on her part.

I don't know why you think she didn't care about the Earth.

Also she became an actual agent of G.U.N. off screen so that doesn't exactly count.

[DabigRG]

1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

I mean, that's just her doing her job.

I was about to call it a sudden change of heart, but it's just basic questioning on her part.

I don't know why you think she didn't care about the Earth.

Also she became an actual agent of G.U.N. off screen so that doesn't exactly count.

She was only helping GUN because they promised her jewels, helped blow up an entire island full of prison personnel, and powered up a Planet Buster to damaged the moon.

It still happened.

[StaticMania]

The life of an undercover agent.

Still not sure what the point is though.

That's just a not fully realized angle, but Sonic isn't known for fully realizing it's plot points.

[Dr. Detective]

It's part of what makes the "Dark" in "Team Dark" so interesting to me. It kind of exemplifies what anti-heroes are when you look back on her actions in Adventure 2. Yeah, they're not bad guys but they still have much harsher methods of achieving their goals and much more selfish reasons for doing what they do. It IS true that secret agents do also sometimes have no choice but to take out some of their own in order to fully stay committed to the role of being on the enemy's side. 

I like the idea of things being explored more often.

Contrary to popular belief, character development isn't just watching a character slowly change over time. It could also be clarification of what makes a character operate and tick, something that if explored with Sonic or Tails, wouldn't need to change their characters but just provide a neat little insight into who they are. Something as little as finding out what more of their hobbies are when they're not facing down Eggman can even count as something like that. 

[StaticMania]

I know character development isn't just a slow burn.

But there's not anything there to call development.

She shows slight care about Shadow after he saved her, but that's it.

[DabigRG]

28 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

 

That's just a not fully realized angle, but Sonic isn't known for fully realizing it's plot points.

True enough.

Still, I'd say a huge part of why Knuckles, Shadow, Blaze, and maybe Silver feel so distinctly defined is because they were introduced with a particular story in mind off the bat.  In contrast to the likes of Tails, Amy, and Omega, they were given a specific arc with a fitting background to direct the plot's substance. 

Meanwhile, characters like Rouge(who's apparently debatable now), Cream, and maybe Zavok are probably somewhere in the middle.

19 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

 

Contrary to popular belief, character development isn't just watching a character slowly change over time. It could also be clarification of what makes a character operate and tick, something that if explored with Sonic or Tails, wouldn't need to change their characters but just provide a neat little insight into who they are. Something as little as finding out what more of their hobbies are when they're not facing down Eggman can even count as something like that. 

Yeah, that's definitely the implication one can get sometimes. Specifically speaking, I've heard character depth described as how much the character changes based on what you learn about them. And depth often comes from development.

[Shadowlax]

14 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I feel like every time this topic comes up, we're just repeating what we always say except nobody is willing to compromise on anything so we just end up going in circles.

I mean what is there to compromise on this sort of thing? People want different things, and with things like mania existing can point to it and say why can't I just get the thing I want. Sega's handling of the franchise has caused this discussion to become a carousel of misery and woe. At least we are past the point where any doof with video editing wanted to make a video about how it was actually the fanbases fault for this.

14 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

So to add something to that; Tails sucks, and nobody knows how to make him unsuck.

I would argue he doesn't suck, and there is a very clear way to make him unsuck. But he is in a particularly position.

To begin characters have fan bases right. Those fanbase parts have different opinions. Lets take silver for example, he has two fanbases at least I have witnessed primiarly. One that sort of really likes him around blaze and referencing sonic 06 and things like that. And one who have themselves largely seperated silver from that game , his personality even the type of friendship he had in that game to construct a different albeit more dorky version of the character. These two sides are placated ( someone what to this disdain of blaze fans like myself who don't want her around that popularity leach looser ) by having them hang but no particularly references to 06 or any of those games while continuously making silver wholly unlike what he once was.

How about knuckles huh.  So knuckles is in a position where there are a bunch of people I would argue most of the people who like knuckles given how much it gets brought up , who want him to be cool and punchy. However, there are kids and people who aren't as in to sonic as some of us are, who prefer him as ...only a dofus. Not might thing, but its cool. Now some may argue knuckles was never the sharpest tool in the shed, but its very clear that a good portion of his fanbase thinks of him a bit more capable of just being doof. Now this has yet to be placated, much like with tails in the games. But at least in the comics and sega's attempts in recent games they have tried to make him confident along with making him rash and guilible.

You have amy some people like her relationship with sonic and that being more center focus... other's don't like myself. Various levels of don't to " It shouldn't be the focus of her character " to " they should just drop it all together "  to " this character needs an overhaul times have changed " . Now to be fair this issues hasn't been solved when sega of japan is writing her ( or any of the girls for that matter and that's an entirely other conversation that needs to be had ) but when...anyone else is writing the character. They find a balance for her to be independent and strong of character desiring action and for also to swoon over sonic because .... minnie mouse.

And last you have Shadow. Shadow is unique. Gazes into nothingness with a deep sense of despair on my face. His problem is , much like tail's specific and kinda funny. If I were to break down shadow fans into two extreme camps caps. You have " He needs to be the coolest badassest guy on the planet who murders everyone and takes no shit " and " He's secretly a marshmellow". Think of it as a spectrum. On one end, there's a fireball of burning destruction and shadow murdering gun soilders and the other end is him opening a cat orphanage. Now how they placate both of these people is ignoring them both and meeting somewhere in the middle. Jokes on twitter voice actors aside shadow's characterization generally falls inline with this and it works for both groups.

Now why do I bring these four up, these are characters with specific problems that sort of work against one another with fans of the character but are allowed ( some more than others ) in ways to work for both parties. Tails kinda doesn't.

You got one group who kind of just wants him to be playable.. doesn't really care for the genius stuff or character arcs and values him for their ability to use him. And the other who would like to play as him , but find value in him as a character and would much prefer he would be done justice. While they are complete opposites they do work against each other, one would prefer he just be a silent side kick , the other one kind of a sly genius. Now untill recently I would argue it isn't really a fixable problem, either make him nothing or something... playablity was sort of out of the question for  awhile. Untill they made sonic mania and sonic forces. So that solves the issue. You just have two different types of games maybe even more with different versions of the characters that work for different audiences. All brands do this , its how you have goofball batman and badass batman. Problem solved open shut that's how you solve it. Except at least in forces... it just seems they wrote him the other way ( poorly ) to try and placate those people and then... then just to turn back into modern tales in the worst way possible. So they had an out, they had one. And they just.... decided not to do it.

So it is possible to make him unsuck, and make him work for different parties. The powers at be have just decided... to not.

[Kuzu]

I...don't even get what you're trying say honestly. First you talked about everyone has a different idea on what they want....which I already said. Then you bring up other examples of other characters and then reference Batman, and I'm not quite sure what conclusion I'm supposed to be drawing from all of that.