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Tangled Jack

Tails: between success and disservice of the character

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11 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I guess its a good thing I wasn't talking about people who are already fans huh

You were talking about "literally the average person". I'm saying that just because his name's on the title screen doesn't make him likely to get picked over the cooler characters with better abilities. Winning popularity polls and actually being played in-game are kinda connected, but not especially.

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On 8/18/2019 at 9:41 AM, Splash the Otter said:

You're missing my point. Buddy was a breath of fresh air because he wasn't Sonic. I and many others are tired of only having Sonic to play as.

You missed the point, you cannot progress through the game without playing as buddy, buddy...

 

Therefore, Buddy was forced upon us.

On 8/17/2019 at 7:17 PM, DabigRG said:

No, he was saying able to let alone forced.

But you were forced, unless you can prove we were not, my point stands....

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17 hours ago, Hurly Burly said:

You missed the point, you cannot progress through the game without playing as buddy, buddy...

 

Therefore, Buddy was forced upon us.

But you were forced, unless you can prove we were not, my point stands....

So what if you're forced? It's better than only having two versions of Sonic to play as!

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On 9/10/2019 at 6:56 AM, Splash the Otter said:

So what if you're forced? It's better than only having two versions of Sonic to play as!

That is all I wanted to hear. You are forced, period.

Sonic is the reason people play Sonic games, hence it is called "Sonic the Hedgehog."

Any version of Sonic is better than any other character because he is the cash cow. His game-play mechanics is what people pay for. If there were 5 versions of Sonic, that would be fine because it is Sonic. When you get away from his game-play mechanics, this is when the waters start to get murky...

Sonic > All other characters, period...Because his game-play mechanics is what drives the series, period.

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Guess what, since the planet in the series is just called Sonic's World now...I guess no one else should exist but Sonic the Hedgehog either.

Might as well take that non-sense argument to the its extreme conclusion, it ain't gonna make anymore sense otherwise.

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3 hours ago, Hurly Burly said:

That is all I wanted to hear. You are forced, period.

Sonic is the reason people play Sonic games, hence it is called "Sonic the Hedgehog."

Any version of Sonic is better than any other character because he is the cash cow. His game-play mechanics is what people pay for. If there were 5 versions of Sonic, that would be fine because it is Sonic. When you get away from his game-play mechanics, this is when the waters start to get murky...

Sonic > All other characters, period...Because his game-play mechanics is what drives the series, period.

Sonic's gameplay driving the series doesn't mean people only want to play as Sonic, first of all. And we've seen that Sonic's gameplay has been complained about for a decent while now, so that argument doesn't really work. 
...Period?

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3 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

So you'd rather play the Werehog in Sonic Unleashed, than Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2?

You answered your own question, Werehog.

 

6 hours ago, Hurly Burly said:

His game-play mechanics is what people pay for.

Werehog was a clever way for them to force an unconventional Sonic characters (Such as Silver, Big, etc) onto us.

Notice how he is called Werehog, not Sonic.

 

 

2 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

Sonic's gameplay driving the series doesn't mean people only want to play as Sonic, first of all. And we've seen that Sonic's gameplay has been complained about for a decent while now, so that argument doesn't really work. 
...Period?

The best selling Sonic games of all-time only had him with the optional Tails.......Period?

The worst had a cluster of crazy toons.

So it works just fine, unless you were born  around the 2000s and don't remember a time where it was just Sonic, with the optional Tails.

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5 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Guess what, since the planet in the series is just called Sonic's World now...I guess no one else should exist but Sonic the Hedgehog either.

Might as well take that non-sense argument to the its extreme conclusion, it ain't gonna make anymore sense otherwise.

We need Sonic to fight the evil Sonic, to save the Sonic's from being Sonicized. Partner up with Sonic or Sonic & Sonic. Go through Sonic Zone, Sonic Zone, and the newly special made Sonic Zone. Gather the Sonic's to become Super Sonic Sonic Super Sonic. With special dating sim where you can play as Sonic and date Sonic or Sonic..or Sonic. Unlock the extra Sonic world where you can go and play on Sonic's world, Sonic's world, and the super hard Sonic's world.

Are you ready for "Sonic's Sonic adventure Sonic!"

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1 hour ago, Hurly Burly said:

 

The best selling Sonic games of all-time only had him with the optional Tails.......Period?

The worst had a cluster of crazy toons.

So it works just fine, unless you were born  around the 2000s and don't remember a time where it was just Sonic, with the optional Tails.

Optional Tails? What about Sonic 3K and Mania?

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1 hour ago, MainJP said:

Optional Tails? What about Sonic 3K and Mania?

Uhhhh....You can play as Sonic, only in that game....

Have you even played Sonic mania lol? It is akin to S3 & Knuckles, where you can play as one character solo...

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41 minutes ago, Hurly Burly said:

Have you even played Sonic mania lol? It is akin to S3 & Knuckles, where you can play as one character solo...

What are you on about? Why do you think I mentioned them together?

Anyway, so you're saying the best games have optional extra characters while 3D games force you to play others? It's more complex than that. The other more damning issue is that they all play far differently compared to Sonic's own play style. No one wants to play as Sonic then have to go learn how to play Knuckles' lame treasure hunting levels and Big's fishing or whatever.

In the 2D games where we have a time tested mechanical style the characters are designed in a way that compliments the base gameplay instead of designing a new style from the ground up for each character. While the only real differences between them all are few in number,  they were implemented in a way that added replay value by adding situations where one character couldn't access certain areas but someone like Knuckles or Mighty could make use of an alternate route thanks to the game allowing a character's different abilities to excel in a given situation. You don't get that same implementation in the 3D games, add to that the already flawed and inconsistent base gameplay and you're gonna have extra characters that are even more of a chore to play.

 

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4 hours ago, Hurly Burly said:

The best selling Sonic games of all-time only had him with the optional Tails.......Period?

The worst had a cluster of crazy toons.

It wouldn't be much of a stretch to guess that the best-selling Sonic game that wasn't packed in with a system in the middle of a vicious console price war had so many fucking shitty friends "crazy toons" you'd fucking drown in them.

 

I'm also guessing the second best selling Sonic game under criteria other than "Sega literally gave it away" probably was the one where Sonic wasn't even playable; but it may have been the game where Sonic made up 1/6th of the game.

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9 hours ago, Hurly Burly said:

You answered your own question, Werehog.

That's Sonic, man. That's your cash cow iconic character.

Would you rather play as Sonic wielding Caliburn in Sonic and the Black Knight, or as Tails in Sonic 3?

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Am I the only one who didn't think the Werehog as a Concept was a "Violation of the Franchise's honor"? The gameplay ended up being medicore but the Werehog's design and personality was cool , his interactions with other characters were fun. 

 

It feels to me that the Werehog would have been a lot better received in 2004 than in 2008 where critics and old fans were obsessed with "Returning to form" and wanted to scream at Sega at any sign of not doing that 

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16 hours ago, Hurly Burly said:

That is all I wanted to hear. You are forced, period.

And as I said, who fucking cares? Buddy is more fun to play as  than both versions of Sonic combined!

16 hours ago, Hurly Burly said:

Sonic is the reason people play Sonic games, hence it is called "Sonic the Hedgehog."

He's not the reason I play Sonic games.

16 hours ago, Hurly Burly said:

Any version of Sonic is better than any other character because he is the cash cow. His game-play mechanics is what people pay for. If there were 5 versions of Sonic, that would be fine because it is Sonic. When you get away from his game-play mechanics, this is when the waters start to get murky...

Sonic > All other characters, period...Because his game-play mechanics is what drives the series, period.

It seems to me that Sonic is the only character you like. That's fine, but it's no call to insist that he's the only one who should ever be playable!

9 hours ago, Hurly Burly said:

You answered your own question, Werehog.

Werehog was a clever way for them to force an unconventional Sonic characters (Such as Silver, Big, etc) onto us.

Notice how he is called Werehog, not Sonic.

He's Werehog Sonic. As in an alternate version of Sonic, and not a separate character at all.

9 hours ago, Hurly Burly said:

The best selling Sonic games of all-time only had him with the optional Tails.......Period?

The worst had a cluster of crazy toons.

So it works just fine, unless you were born  around the 2000s and don't remember a time where it was just Sonic, with the optional Tails.

The Adventure games both gave us six characters to play as.

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2 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

Am I the only one who didn't think the Werehog as a Concept was a "Violation of the Franchise's honor"? The gameplay ended up being medicore but the Werehog's design and personality was cool , his interactions with other characters were fun. 

To be honest it's one of my favorite ideas the series has tried. I even got some fun out of playing it. It contrasted with the day stages pretty heavily but in terms of depth they're about on par with one another imo. If you're willing to take the game for what it is and not lean too hard toward how Sonic Unleashed "should" be you'll have a lot more fun with it. It was a shame it was seen as just another gimmick since I think the idea would have been refined into something cool had they been tapped to make a sequel. Or, y'know, if they were allowed to properly polish Sonic Unleashed up in the first place.

 

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4 hours ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

Am I the only one who didn't think the Werehog as a Concept was a "Violation of the Franchise's honor"? The gameplay ended up being medicore but the Werehog's design and personality was cool , his interactions with other characters were fun. 

 

It feels to me that the Werehog would have been a lot better received in 2004 than in 2008 where critics and old fans were obsessed with "Returning to form" and wanted to scream at Sega at any sign of not doing that 

The characters having monster forms is cool and should happen again. Give me mummy knuckles.

My issue with the were hog and many others was , simply put...kinda just knuckles. I heard this before and I'm gonna steal it but " the were hog was just them slapping knuckles and shadows design sensibilities on sonic" and it felt rather unfitting. At a time where friends were on the way out , it felt as just a replacement. And that didn't go over well with the folks who wanted the friends around, it has always carried the stigma of "it should have been knuckles " which on some level I agree. This combination with the people just wanted sonic to return to form combined into a lot of disdain for the premise.

It's not completley hated, but it isn't enjoyed enough to make a return in any significant way. And that kinda sucks, because now they are starting to think about sonic's friends again,  I would totally like a game where everyone gets turned into spooky monsters.

But at the same time I do not blame people for wanting sonic to be sonic and just wanting to play as knuckles and not a weird version of sonic they may not like that seems like an obvious knuckles replacement

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Just now, Wraith said:

When did Knuckles or Shadow get the power to stretch their arms?

While they never had the power to stretch, sonic turning into a big fight dude for a lot of people venture into knuckles territory,  along with some of the traversal aspects. As for shadow they felt as though the edgier design was trying to get into that shadow market. Friends were on the way out but he was still really popular , so why not make a sonic design that tries to evoke that feeling for people. And this wouldn't be the first time or the last time glances at infinite that they would try to do so, for that reason.

This in combination with rumors of shadow and knuckles supposedly being playable in the game at somepoint in development,  put bad tastes in folk's mouths.

And it got worse, while the next game didn't feature a werehog but it did feature the wisps. The next step in the idea "we will just put the different character type mechanics on sonic rather than you engage with them" and caused people to look back at the werehog as the same thing.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

While they never had the power to stretch, sonic turning into a big fight dude for a lot of people venture into knuckles territory,  along with some of the traversal aspects. As for shadow they felt as though the edgier design was trying to get into that shadow market. Friends were on the way out but he was still really popular , so why not make a sonic design that tries to evoke that feeling for people. And this wouldn't be the first time or the last time glances at infinite that they would try to do so, for that reason.

This in combination with rumors of shadow and knuckles supposedly being playable in the game at somepoint in development,  put bad tastes in folk's mouths.

And it got worse, while the next game didn't feature a werehog but it did feature the wisps. The next step in the idea "we will just put the different character type mechanics on sonic rather than you engage with them" and caused people to look back at the werehog as the same thing.

 

 

The werehog doesn't resemble any of the other characters mechanically and conceptually it's a personal arc for Sonic. Nothing about it works if you slot another character in. I always thought this take was bone-headed.

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6 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The werehog doesn't resemble any of the other characters mechanically and conceptually it's a personal arc for Sonic. Nothing about it works if you slot another character in. I always thought this take was bone-headed.

Sonic goes through a personal arc?

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27 minutes ago, Wraith said:

When did Knuckles or Shadow get the power to stretch their arms?

Perhaps an extension of the Maximum Heat Attack or Chaos Snap?

Critical question nonetheless.

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