Canon Immigrants

[StaticMania]

No, it didn't because she didn't know Elise liked Sonic and they don't interact at all in the Last Story.

[Red Hot Jack]

Is Ian still insisting? Probably, he loves cartoon Sonic characters in general, but stupid SEGA is against their inclusion, even for a minor comic book.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Jack at the Cinema said:

Is Ian still insisting? Probably, he loves cartoon Sonic characters in general, but stupid SEGA is against their inclusion, even for a minor comic book.

Insisting on what?

15 hours ago, StaticMania said:

No, it didn't because she didn't know Elise liked Sonic and they don't interact at all in the Last Story.

Not that. Is. Irony!

[antyep]

17 hours ago, Cuz said:

Yeah the Speed/Power/Flight dynamic isn't going to work with that setup at all. Mina's has a good claim to speed type, and really Sally would have a hard time fitting into a category. While I want the freedom fighters to make a immigration to the games, or IDW one day. There's got to be a better approach than Sonic heroes team dynamics. 

Sally's gonna naturally fit a tech role as Tails and Robotnik do. It would be cool seeing the brash side of Amy's leadership contrast with Sally defensive mother-bear leadership. I actually can see earnest chemistry between Sally and Amy. Mina in the games sounds like a wild card though. 

 

Simply put...

 

Sally - Blossom

Amy - Buttercup

Mina - Bubbles

[Red Hot Jack]

I just got a sudden reminder that we do need Tangle & Whisper in the games. For real. I know I'm a broken record on this but after the - Sticks being dropped - disappointment, we really need more badass females in the series, they really fit in, both gameplay and storyline, plus polar opposites in extroverted/introverted attitudes, I know they are evolving, or at least trying to, Amy into a more independent and rounded character, but still, they are forgetting IMO, her action side and turning her into a leader/command type a la Sally, which is quite a shame. Plus the fact that she is the female lead and main love interest makes her obviously a general token, meh.

I would say, since we have a rumoured new cartoon, introduce Tangle and Whisper in that first, then the games maybe? Instead of creating yet more expies and add even more characters into the mix, who may be a failure, use the ones we have who are already vastly popular, make them bigger and more known as they are great additions for me. I know they are tehered to the current every dark storyline in IDW, but I really think they can pull off simple self-contained stories, yeah even Whisper with her tragic background.

[DabigRG]

The leader was just a cleanup for what Forces did.

[Big Panda]

On 2/17/2020 at 11:03 PM, thumbs13 said:

Didn't 06 prove that wrong with Elise?

 

She was friends with Sally in pre-SGW Archie Sonic too. They even explained in one issue why Amy was okay with Sonic dating Sally:

[Sonario]

 

 

 

1

Spoiler

Y'know after watching the Sonic movie, I would absolutely love if Longclaw existed in the Gameverse too. You could explain that she was the one who raised Sonic as an infant after his parents died until he could live on his own, but then left him on Christmas Island by himself and disappeared (maybe some old enemy of Sonic's parents would show up and Longclaw could distract and lead them away from Sonic to keep him safe, dying in the process or maybe even being captured to be rescued in a later story where Sonic discovers his past). Then Toddler Sonic would grow into Classic Sonic in the company of Animal Friends until he eventually leaves Christmas Island in search of adventure. Then Sonic 1 happens and the rest is history.

 

[DabigRG]

Am I the only one curious to see that lizard mage reworked?

[Kuzu]

Wow, I missed a lot in this topic. I'm almost upset.

 

Oh, so what if the Freedom Fighters debuted in IDW and became like, the foils to Sonic's group. Like, Sally, Bunny, Antoine, and Rotor are all proper military and follow protocol and shit but kind of look down on Team Sonic for having a much looser sense of action and whatnot. Be a good way for them to butt heads? Just shooting from the hip here. 

[antyep]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Wow, I missed a lot in this topic. I'm almost upset.

 

Oh, so what if the Freedom Fighters debuted in IDW and became like, the foils to Sonic's group. Like, Sally, Bunny, Antoine, and Rotor are all proper military and follow protocol and shit but kind of look down on Team Sonic for having a much looser sense of action and whatnot. Be a good way for them to butt heads? Just shooting from the hip here. 

That's what I'm saying. Perhaps in the aftermath of the Zombot thing, hearing that Sonic was mostly the cause of all that, Sally's kingdom decides to take matters into their own hands and apprehend Eggman, telling Sonic's group to back off. Amy, being one who seems to care about the resistance, or whatever they're called now, would feel effected by this and demand order in the group, especially Sonic, forgetting the things she figured back in issue 2. Sonic...just won't care, and would butt-heads with Sally, teasing her, too and probably the very few to get under her skin. I'm not saying they'll be enemies, no way. But I think Sally and her crew would be a good foil for the usual four. But of course in the end, they'll learn to respect each other and become friends.

Or if there's a Classic Sonic series coming, just put the Freedom Fighters there. They are technically classic characters.

[Shadowlax]

There's a very small lore detail that was revealed that at least for me kinda killed the idea of a sally return. But I can humor the rest of them

[Johnny Boy]

Tangle and Whisper are must haves for me. If we’re going by the speed, flight , power thing from heroes than Whisper can be a speed type while Whisper can be a power type. Especially since the series has yet to have a female power type character.

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Wow, I missed a lot in this topic. I'm almost upset.

 

Oh, so what if the Freedom Fighters debuted in IDW and became like, the foils to Sonic's group. Like, Sally, Bunny, Antoine, and Rotor are all proper military and follow protocol and shit but kind of look down on Team Sonic for having a much looser sense of action and whatnot. Be a good way for them to butt heads? Just shooting from the hip here. 

I remember someone suggesting something similar. It's a neat idea, effectively combining them with Geoffrey and the Secret Service to emphasize the differences between Sonic and Sally in particular.

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

There's a very small lore detail that was revealed that at least for me kinda killed the idea of a sally return. But I can humor the rest of them

What was that?

[E-122-Psi]

The aforementioned approach would be a clever way to get around some of the Freedom Fighters being made redundant by the later games personas (most obviously Tails against Rotor). It would also still allow for old dynamics to still potentially seep through, like Sally and Antoine's rivalistic moments towards Sonic. Bunnie and Knuckles potentially being powerhouse rivals I admit could be fun, they could probably do something with Amy and Antoine being the insecure 'normies' of the group as well, though Tails and Rotor I can just see being their laid back selves over-engrossed in sharing their gadgetry and wondering what everyone's so tense about.

I admit I feel Sally's old archetype has potential against Sonic, ie. the cautious by-the-book vs spontaneous on-the-fly ethics, however I wouldn't advise it in the same manner she was regularly used or even how Sonic is usually used in the games. I would like at least one instance of this where BOTH sides get a humbling and have to make a compromise, something I don't think the show or comics ever tried in over 20 years of stories.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

On 3/1/2020 at 10:51 PM, Kuzu said:

Wow, I missed a lot in this topic. I'm almost upset.

 

Oh, so what if the Freedom Fighters debuted in IDW and became like, the foils to Sonic's group. Like, Sally, Bunny, Antoine, and Rotor are all proper military and follow protocol and shit but kind of look down on Team Sonic for having a much looser sense of action and whatnot. Be a good way for them to butt heads? Just shooting from the hip here. 

I’d imagine their dynamics wouldn’t be too different other than them being a lot stronger as individuals due to having less dependence on Sonic. They’d still be a ragtag group friendly to him, but they’d be no different from how they interact. They were able to operate without Sonic multiple times, so I can’t see much outside of what we’ve already seen regarding interactions between them—at least not enough that would change the spirits of the characters to such a high degree. Probably the only major difference would be their new background and how that builds them up sociologically, but with the IDW setting being essentially a return to Archie’s pre-reboot setting of Eggman having ravaged the world and Ian reusing plans he never had a chance to use there, if they were reintroduced, they might comeback with whatever ideas Ian never got to use with them at first. 

Heck, with Rotor specializing in weaponry, he could be made the creator or at least a designer of Wisp-on technology, and that could be the forefront of their strength.

I could also imagine Bunnie’s cybernetics being integrated with Wisp-on tech, making her a hell of a lot more versatile in a fight. Antoine with a Wisp-on sword could do some great justice to how he fights. Sally was actually pretty versatile with the Ring Blades, so anything new would just be a bonus.

Antoine would probably be the closest to “proper” military, and seeing him as less cowardly, but still a normie that would jump out of his pants the moment something shocked him would be an interesting juxtaposition if his personality. Sally I’d imagine would be more the “Sonic” of the group, but only as impulsive as how she’s equipped to handle things—you give her enough tools to fight, and she can be as reckless as Sonic himself; conversely, the less tools she has, the more cautious and careful she is. And she’s still have Nicole as backup.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

On 3/2/2020 at 4:30 AM, Johnny Boy said:

Especially since the series has yet to have a female power type character.

Even though she may be a Fly type, I always consider Rouge to have a slight claim of being a Power character since she originally had Knuckles' moveset.

[Kuzu]

On 3/3/2020 at 1:18 AM, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I’d imagine their dynamics wouldn’t be too different other than them being a lot stronger as individuals due to having less dependence on Sonic. They’d still be a ragtag group friendly to him, but they’d be no different from how they interact. They were able to operate without Sonic multiple times, so I can’t see much outside of what we’ve already seen regarding interactions between them—at least not enough that would change the spirits of the characters to such a high degree. Probably the only major difference would be their new background and how that builds them up sociologically, but with the IDW setting being essentially a return to Archie’s pre-reboot setting of Eggman having ravaged the world and Ian reusing plans he never had a chance to use there, if they were reintroduced, they might comeback with whatever ideas Ian never got to use with them at first. 

Heck, with Rotor specializing in weaponry, he could be made the creator or at least a designer of Wisp-on technology, and that could be the forefront of their strength.

I could also imagine Bunnie’s cybernetics being integrated with Wisp-on tech, making her a hell of a lot more versatile in a fight. Antoine with a Wisp-on sword could do some great justice to how he fights. Sally was actually pretty versatile with the Ring Blades, so anything new would just be a bonus.

Antoine would probably be the closest to “proper” military, and seeing him as less cowardly, but still a normie that would jump out of his pants the moment something shocked him would be an interesting juxtaposition if his personality. Sally I’d imagine would be more the “Sonic” of the group, but only as impulsive as how she’s equipped to handle things—you give her enough tools to fight, and she can be as reckless as Sonic himself; conversely, the less tools she has, the more cautious and careful she is. And she’s still have Nicole as backup.

The point is that they would be different in their dynamics to Sonic. They should have an adversarial relationship before becoming friends.

[Shadowlax]

On 3/2/2020 at 5:36 AM, DabigRG said:

 

What was that?

Weirdly enough , the no money thing. And how it plays into how I view animal planet in general and the general themes of that world, also what I think of sally.

 

[DabigRG]

27 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Weirdly enough , the no money thing. And how it plays into how I view animal planet in general and the general themes of that world, also what I think of sally.

 

Nevermind how it potentially screws with the Chaotix.

What, is it becaus royalty tends to involve riches?

[Shadowlax]

34 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Nevermind how it potentially screws with the Chaotix.

What, is it becaus royalty tends to involve riches?

Kinda that and some other stuff. With like no money like, what royalty is there to have. You may be like well Blaze exists, but blaze is a princess the same way Wonder Woman is a princess which is " congratulations now defend the realm" . It is framed squarely in responsibility .And that's sort of the vibe with sonic, familial ties and royal lines generally don't matter, disregarded, or literally dead.

I don't think personality wise with all that sally brings anything to the table if she was brought back so if you did bring her back with any type of prominence it would require a rework. And at that point is that sally?I dunno, maybe sally fans can disregard that entirely. But speaking for myself even as someone who does not like sally at all that sounds sucky?

Sally along with knuckles's extended family who now lives with ken penders in his house of petty bullshit , always to me felt at odds with the themes that were so pervasive in the games. A sort of freedom but a sort of individuality , for knuckles's family it kind of worked because there are a lot of times where the echdina's are just villains. But sally always felt like this weirdly privileged child that was thrust into importance because princess whilst her peers a lot of whom are literally war orphans actually had to work for the shit that they did. It didn't help that on a meta level it that's what she was, she was a character who received more prominence than some game characters because she was a princess grandfathered in from an old cartoon. Both on paper and in concept in the series , she's always felt like we were told she was important rather than her actually being interesting and important

In a world with no money and seemingly no privilege besides " He has a super power" , where do you sit a princess with no personality. She would have to be changed, if she was in sonic animal planet number 1.

However, She can fit in sonic animal planet number 2. Its no secret i'm not fond of sally. That said I think her energy constructs were interesting. If you just made that her power. Threw her in blaze's world and you expand on her world by saving " its ruled by a bunch of princesses of power with various magic jewels" you get to keep her character entirely the same, expand on it and allow to the FF and sonic to be seperate. I think sally in sonic's world again is kinda dumb personality, sally as another princess in blazes world would genuinely be interesting. And it allows her to earn her importance instead of just being there

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

6 hours ago, Kuzu said:

The point is that they would be different in their dynamics to Sonic. They should have an adversarial relationship before becoming friends.

They don’t have to have an adversarial relationship first. And depending on how adversarial you’re talking, that’s not a good idea for very obvious reasons that were actually already explored and criticized in Archie.
 

People are already familiar with the dynamic of the Freedom Fighters, and making them adversarial first would alienate the fans of those characters and on top of that give more ammunition to those that already hated them. Hell, Archie fans ranted like crazy when Sally did her infamous slap on Sonic, for one example, and it took years for them to drop it. And given how we’ve already seen these attitudes, that’s not actually doing the Freedom Fighters any favors either as characters or for the reader. Never mind how people would hold a grudge against them for being hostile no matter how much they change and become friendly—we’ve both seen enough of this fandom to know how stubborn folks are the moment a character turns sour in their eyes like Shadow continues to be to this day among his haters.

Not saying it can’t work, or that it wouldn’t be interesting, but it would be much wiser to do that and create that kind of fracture after they become friends first—that way they still maintain audience sympathy and the dynamics are still intact while you explore their personalities and attitudes in a new angle. So when they start pushing back against Sonic we actually understand the characters more deeply and can sympathize better rather than having their first impression be a hostile one.

Even with the Metal Virus taking tolls on the world, people’s attitude towards Sonic over the matter is a matter of being stressed out at the dire situation than adversarial—old friends have raged and called out Sonic for his actions, but they’re still friendly and willing to fight alongside him. And once that settles, I can’t imagine it going well if the problem was fixed but the FF were still resentful. 
 

That, or you can just focus that adversarial dynamic with just one member of the FF—Antoine, who already has that going for him anyway with Sonic. Beyond that, you’re making a bigger risk than you’d think changing the spirit of the characters like that. And I know that from experience.

[E-122-Psi]

I think the general issue with Sally and the other Freedom Fighters' adversarial moments in the comics and to some degree the show was that they weren't really met with the proper balance of development and consequence/redemption. They were generally treated as the virtuous good guys and straight men to Sonic over flawed characters with an arc of their own, which caused problems when negative qualities to them, intentional or not, reared their head.

Sally in particular was always shoehorned into the 'women are wiser' role, her hypocritical or ornery moments were rarely treated as wrong or called out by other characters, so were rarely balanced with moments of humility to keep her sympathetic. They only really made her apologise for the slap after a really long duration, and arguably only because the writers figured it had become meme-level and fans weren't gonna let it go otherwise. Antoine meanwhile was a jackass originally but mostly for comic relief with only sporadic redeeming moments (though his genuinely repentant and insecure scene in Hooked On Sonics is considered one of the better moments of his Satam counterpart). I struggle to think of many ornery moments from Rotor and Bunnie, besides maybe Rotor's infamous 'we don't use firearms' moment and Bunnie's somewhat vindictive moment helping Antoine as a trial enforcer after Mecha Madness, both of which were very fleeting, though the same problem occurs.

These characters had the potential to convey inferior superiority complexes, meaning well but taking misguided or harsh measures which they are remorseful over ultimately (something that could easily made sympathetic in the far direr and more pressuring stakes of their works), but the writers seldom wrote the uglier sides to them competently enough. A simple parable story about working together and understanding the other's intents could work well enough if they let the feud develop and culminate properly. So long as it can build up to a friendlier relationship and they don't get stuck in a borderline running gag of being distrustful characters who never learn like Knuckles (this as well happened to some degree in the comics given how often Robotnik got Sonic condemned, but again, no redemption or even an apology each time it happened).

Even Sally's bickering I believe would work okay afterwards if they keep it downplayed and playful, or at least keep the well meaning protective intent from Sally, she isn't really just vitriolic to Sonic, she just doesn't want him to run headfirst into danger. It would also probably work better if they conveyed her as more of an equal to Sonic in terms of their rivalry, a character that was sometimes intentionally conveyed as pompous and was allowed to be undermined at times like Sonic was. Think Baloo and Rebecca from Talespin.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And by that point the next step is figuring out how Sega will intervene and want them portrayed...

Which after really thinking about it with how they leashed Shadow’s character, I’d still rather go the “Friends first, Adversaries later” Route if that were the case with the Freedom Fighters. If only to mitigate any risk of wonky characterization.

[E-122-Psi]

Admittedly I question why I argue about this in the first place since I don't trust the games to depict the Freedom Fighters that well. Hell I never liked any of the comics' attempts to modernise and redesign them to be more uniform with the games.

As of right now the games are not in a good place in terms of story telling, replicating the same resistance plot as the comics (Forces) came out pretty shallow, while even their attempts to deconstruct the three main games characters' personalities through a simple parable most kids cartoons can do well enough (Lost Worlds) was flimsy as well. Given many believe the Freedom Fighters work from having a more complex and heavy level of story telling, I question how well this would work. You can't really make an enterpretation where they aren't developed as Woobies to some degree.

I admit I don't really want the resistance/Freedom Fighter dynamic to stick in the games either. Maybe just for those guys in particular, but I prefer the games cast having their own motivations and the plot having at least some degree of character driven aspects. Chaotix being money hungry makes them far more unique and developed as additions over just being another squad of soldiers like they were in the comics.