Canon Immigrants

[DabigRG]

Rotor and especially Bunnie were generally the easygoing and cheerful nice ones of the group. It was Antoine and sometimes Sally who could be troublesome by nature.

25 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

. Given many believe the Freedom Fighters work from having a more complex and heavy level of story telling, I question how well this would work. You can't really make an enterpretation where they aren't developed as Woobies to some degree.

So more fallible but less assholish Shadows?

25 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I admit I don't really want the resistance/Freedom Fighter dynamic to stick in the games either. Maybe just for those guys in particular, but I prefer the games cast having their own motivations and the plot having at least some degree of character driven aspects. Chaotix being money hungry makes them far more unique and developed as additions over just being another squad of soldiers like they were in the comics.

That's kinda a vote for both sides of them, honestly. The premise being advocated here is pretty different from how Sonic himself operates.

[E-122-Psi]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Rotor and especially Bunnie were generally the easygoing and cheerful nice ones of the group. It was Antoine and sometimes Sally who could be troublesome by nature.

Rotor more or less. Bunnie I suppose had at least tints of a temper here and there as a vice, even if it rarely exceeded past being feisty for gags here and there (there was her post-reboot backstory though, didn't she and Rouge also get into a fight at one point?). I'm not sure if she might relate to Sonic or Knuckles more in that sense, since like Sonic, it seems a big part of her that she tries to maintain a cheery front to cope with her demons.

I think in both the case of her and Sally, it works to balance this with the fact they always mean well. SatAm Sally is moody for example, but it's brought about by anger born from worry. She's not just a vitriolic character out to rain on his parade, she just wants him to listen to her, even if can get REALLY high strung and 'I know what's best for you more than you do' overbearing about it. That I suppose is where an adversarial role could work since it is a well meaning insecurity born hubris, just make sure it is limelighted properly.

As mentioned the bigger problem was that the writers didn't really like making apparent when Sally was troublesome, or even admitting she capable of being such. There were no consequences, so no remorse, so no real opening for the audience to forgive her, or even know if it was an intentional character flaw in the first place. Even the nasty vitriolic outburst moments at her stupid friends not listening to her like the slap could have worked if it was in the same vein as say, Twilight Sparkle's in the My Little Pony Movie or Verne's in Over the Hedge, where their friends make very apparent how hurt they are and the character is clearly sorry, humanising them instantly and even opening some character development The only time Sally suffered this was in past tense because the writers finally realised the fans weren't gonna forgive her unless she shown a shred of remorse.

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

So more fallible but less assholish Shadows?

Sort of I guess. I mean it's a big part of their background that they are underdogs who got their lives destroyed by a tyrant. The comics had them evolve out of it but it's still something that established them in their original arc. It'd be hard to imagine them without that tragic element.

[Kuzu]

20 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

They don’t have to have an adversarial relationship first. And depending on how adversarial you’re talking, that’s not a good idea for very obvious reasons that were actually already explored and criticized in Archie.
 

People are already familiar with the dynamic of the Freedom Fighters, and making them adversarial first would alienate the fans of those characters and on top of that give more ammunition to those that already hated them. Hell, Archie fans ranted like crazy when Sally did her infamous slap on Sonic, for one example, and it took years for them to drop it. And given how we’ve already seen these attitudes, that’s not actually doing the Freedom Fighters any favors either as characters or for the reader. Never mind how people would hold a grudge against them for being hostile no matter how much they change and become friendly—we’ve both seen enough of this fandom to know how stubborn folks are the moment a character turns sour in their eyes like Shadow continues to be to this day among his haters.

Not saying it can’t work, or that it wouldn’t be interesting, but it would be much wiser to do that and create that kind of fracture after they become friends first—that way they still maintain audience sympathy and the dynamics are still intact while you explore their personalities and attitudes in a new angle. So when they start pushing back against Sonic we actually understand the characters more deeply and can sympathize better rather than having their first impression be a hostile one.

Even with the Metal Virus taking tolls on the world, people’s attitude towards Sonic over the matter is a matter of being stressed out at the dire situation than adversarial—old friends have raged and called out Sonic for his actions, but they’re still friendly and willing to fight alongside him. And once that settles, I can’t imagine it going well if the problem was fixed but the FF were still resentful. 
 

That, or you can just focus that adversarial dynamic with just one member of the FF—Antoine, who already has that going for him anyway with Sonic. Beyond that, you’re making a bigger risk than you’d think changing the spirit of the characters like that. And I know that from experience.

I'm going to be perfectly honest and say that I don't care about that; anything that's done with this series is going to make someone unhappy, and if the series is too worried about displeasing people, then it's never going to be able to move forward. 

Yea, my idea probably wouldn't be very popular at all, but I'd rather try and make it work. The only other alternative I can suggest is to simply not use the Freedom Fighters period if fear of backlash is a thing.

Ian tried and modernized the characters to the best of his ability to fit the modern aesthetic and even that wasn't good enough for @E-122-Psi . Once people are comitted to hating something, it's kind of hard to get them to change their ways. Sometimes you just gotta ignore people and keep it moving. Not everyone is going to like what you do no matter how well iti s

[DabigRG]

While I did get that vibe from an old convo with Fred, it's also worth noting that the reboot, mostly for necessity but also with some indirect benefit, very much dropped a lot of baggage around Sally more than anyone besides maybe Knuckles.

Which while lightening the load and bringing up to date with the other characters, also coincided with removing or at least downplaying some of what made and/or "defined" her character.

[DabigRG]

19 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Rotor more or less.

The reboot seemed to wanna emphasize both his role as the big smart guy and his arc/backstory with Tundra by including to a more pragmatic, bigger picture mindset when it came to problems.

19 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Bunnie I suppose had at least tints of a temper here and there as a vice, even if it rarely exceeded past being feisty for gags here and there

Did she?

Aside from the trial with Sonic(thanks Mike), her exchanged look with Patch during Home, and the next thing, I don't remember much of that.

19 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

(there was her post-reboot backstory though,

Oh?

19 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

didn't she and Rouge also get into a fight at one point?).

Yeah, that was preboot. Of course, she was there to free Rouge, who mistook her for a Robian and attacked her.

19 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I'm not sure if she might relate to Sonic or Knuckles more in that sense, since like Sonic, it seems a big part of her that she tries to maintain a cheery front to cope with her demons.

Uh, maybe Sonic? Idk

19 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think in both the case of her and Sally, it works to balance this with the fact they always mean well. SatAm Sally is moody for example, but it's brought about by anger born from worry. She's not just a vitriolic character out to rain on his parade, she just wants him to listen to her, even if can get REALLY high strung and 'I know what's best for you more than you do' overbearing about it. That I suppose is where an adversarial role could work since it is a well meaning insecurity born hubris, just make sure it is limelighted properly.

Essentially how you do it.

 

19 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Sort of I guess. I mean it's a big part of their background that they are underdogs who got their lives destroyed by a tyrant. The comics had them evolve out of it but it's still something that established them in their original arc. It'd be hard to imagine them without that tragic element.

Oh yeah, that.

Honestly, I thought the reboot did a good enough job with that in context.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I'm going to be perfectly honest and say that I don't care about that; anything that's done with this series is going to make someone unhappy, and if the series is too worried about displeasing people, then it's never going to be able to move forward. 
 

I’m not concerned with how unhappy or displeasing people, I’m speaking entirely about how to go about creating narrative tension between characters without giving said audience an easy opportunity to crap on it with petty and disingenuous talking points they like to disguise as “criticism” that you and I both know happens all too frequently in this fandom.

That favor can very easily be returned in a way that would worsen things more, and if anything the entire point is to avoid giving anyone that chance when exploring these new perspectives.

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Yea, my idea probably wouldn't be very popular at all, but I'd rather try and make it work. The only other alternative I can suggest is to simply not use the Freedom Fighters period if fear of backlash is a thing.

I never said your idea wouldn’t be popular, but rather it would be poorly handled or received if you did it at the wrong moment. This is why pacing and timing are a thing with storytelling. The idea can still work, just not as the first impression with the characters—first impression tend to stick to people’s minds, so you want them to at least have a favorable one.

The Freedom Fighter can still be used, and the backlash against them can go choke on a cactus if people are gonna be that stuck up about it rather than constructive.

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Ian tried and modernized the characters to the best of his ability to fit the modern aesthetic and even that wasn't good enough for @E-122-Psi . Once people are comitted to hating something, it's kind of hard to get them to change their ways. Sometimes you just gotta ignore people and keep it moving. Not everyone is going to like what you do no matter how well iti s

Well unlike others, @E-122-Psi is being a lot more constructive about their handling than the usual “Fuck The Freedom Fighters” or “They’ll make it Archie 2.0 (while ignoring that it already is Archie 2.0)” sentiment others have made simply for them existing.

Those same people also need to grow up and understand they’re not the only dedicated fans of this franchise that wants to enjoy the characters that they love. People may not like everything you do, but they can still be mature about it rather than throw tantrums like 5 year olds because they saw Princess Sally in an hypothetical upcoming story.

[Kuzu]

3 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I’m not concerned with how unhappy or displeasing people, I’m speaking entirely about how to go about creating narrative tension between characters without giving said audience an easy opportunity to crap on it with petty and disingenuous talking points they like to disguise as “criticism” that you and I both know happens all too frequently in this fandom.

That favor can very easily be returned in a way that would worsen things more, and if anything the entire point is to avoid giving anyone that chance when exploring these new perspectives.

I never said your idea wouldn’t be popular, but rather it would be poorly handled or received if you did it at the wrong moment. This is why pacing and timing are a thing with storytelling. The idea can still work, just not as the first impress with the characters.

The Freedom Fighter can still be used, and the backlash against them can go choke on a cactus if people are gonna be that stuck up about it rather than constructive.

Well unlike others, @E-122-Psi is being a lot more constructive about their handling than the usual “Fuck The Freedom Fighters” sentiment others have simply for them existing.

Those same people also need to grow up and understand they’re not the only dedicated fans of this franchise that wants to enjoy the characters that they love. People may not like everything you do, but they can still be mature about it rather than throw tantrums like 5 year olds because they saw Princess Sally in an hypothetical upcoming story.

There's literally no way you're going to avoid that dude. You can literally have the most well written piece of literature ever, and someone online will find a reason to talk trash about it.

Most of the demographics are either too young to know how to properly critique something or they're older fans who have no social skills at all on how properly speak.

 

If people hate the Freedom Fighters that much, they're only going to be satisfied if they're either dead and gone or they're changed to be completely unrecognizable. At that point, these people are not worth considering and I don't know why any consideration should be given to them at all when they clearly do not have the series' best interests in mind.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

17 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

There's literally no way you're going to avoid that dude. You can literally have the most well written piece of literature ever, and someone online will find a reason to talk trash about it.

Then don’t give them an easy opportunity.

That’s not an excuse to be defeatist and not to try at the very least.

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Most of the demographics are either too young to know how to properly critique something or they're older fans who have no social skills at all on how properly speak.

If people hate the Freedom Fighters that much, they're only going to be satisfied if they're either dead and gone or they're changed to be completely unrecognizable. At that point, these people are not worth considering and I don't know why any consideration should be given to them at all when they clearly do not have the series' best interests in mind.

Well they can still learn. They’re only putting themselves in a bigger disadvantage if they don’t.

If people hate the Freedom Fighters that much (which is one thing I’m actually going to doubt and say a good chunk that do are only doing this out of petty spite towards others as usual in this fandom and should know better), why don’t they find something else in the franchise they like? I don’t know about you, but I find it far more telling that said people are more interested blasting about how much they hate rather than anything constructive. For instance, I’ve hated Big—I’ve made that no secret numerous times and have taken every opportunity to criticize whenever I can (which admittedly is not much given how little he’s appeared). However, I’d be crossing the line into being straight up petty if I ranted about Big having an appearance in the Olympic Games because I hated him in SA1, not to mention there’s literally a dozen other characters I can enjoy. And if Big were to appear and defy every criticism I’ve made while still being the simple fisherman he’s always been—in other words, actually becoming a decent character—how much do you think I would get away with it if I turned around and bitched about him Not doing everything that made me dislike him the first time. That would be absolutely hypocritical of me, wouldn’t it?

I mean, if someone went about ranting constantly about how much they don’t like Amy’s characterization in a certain media of the franchise because she’s not showing her rabid love for Sonic rather than talking literally anything else about the character, what would be your thoughts on that? Would you throw your hands and give up or call them out on it?

[Kuzu]

I mean, there's not much I can say. Fandoms are, for the most part, an ugly place. This is particularly true for Sonic because of the amount of ways to engage with the series across different mediums. A fan who grew up on SATAM with its concepts and characters isn't necessarily going to be a fan of the video games, and vice versa.

You are right that if the FF were reintroduced, they should leave a good impression. But I also don't think they should retread old ground with them.

[E-122-Psi]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Did she?

Aside from the trial with Sonic(thanks Mike), her exchanged look with Patch during Home, and the next thing, I don't remember much of that.

Well like I said it was mostly just passive feistiness, like her snapping at Antoine a fair few times in SatAm, or moaning about Rotor making her do busywork or her complexion. Not a really developed element to her they did a lot with, but they did seem to like making her a bit of a hot head for gags.

Admittedly I kinda miss that, along with Sally's pomposity and Antoine's delusions of grandeur. This touch of whimsy peppered onto them. I get character development kicked in throughout the later comics, but often it felt like they just replaced Bunnie's inkling temperament with 'making puppy faces at Antoine' as her more passively used quirk.

Concerning my complainy pants reputation mentioned here, I admit my opinion on the Freedom Fighters is.....polarising. REALLY polarising. I did like them in SatAm but I felt they weren't used at all to their full potential and I think Archie slowly fazed out a lot of what made me like them in the first place, using the old process of 'maturing' the character but forsaking their vibrancy without their more flawed comical elements. It doesn't help that, as mentioned, I don't find the Freedom Fighter dynamic allows much leeway to be character driven, everyone being a soldier with the exact same motive. It generally only works if there is SOME dysfunction and self ambition, early Antoine wasn't a great character, but he could stand out among the group in a story. Same reason characters like Amy don't really work just currently doing a slotted job competently without any of their old drives or silly flaws causing slippage here and there.

It admittedly can be a very weird process seeing my comments and analysis of them, constantly moaning they are 'boring' and pretentiously handled, and yet being drawn enough to their characters to make art and fan hacks of them and being very protective of representing their original elements like their designs well enough. I don't HATE the FF, it would actually probably be MUCH easier for me to just ignore them and move on if I did.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

10 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I mean, there's not much I can say. Fandoms are, for the most part, an ugly place. This is particularly true for Sonic because of the amount of ways to engage with the series across different mediums. A fan who grew up on SATAM with its concepts and characters isn't necessarily going to be a fan of the video games, and vice versa.

As a fan that grew up with SatAM’s concepts and characters, you’d be surprised. People don’t have to be monolithic and shun everything from one part of a franchise, or be spiteful and disrespectful towards those that do like it. That’s essentially trolling.

One more reason why people need to grow up over this factionalism and respect each other without mocking them or the things they like because they themselves don’t (and refuse to put any effort in being constructive about it either). 

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You are right that if the FF were reintroduced, they should leave a good impression. But I also don't think they should retread old ground with them.

They should at least maintain the spirit of the character—the way we can recognize the same Sonic even in alternate continuities like the Movie or the Games despite both having differences among them. If it takes retreading old ground, what’s wrong with that? It doesn’t bar them from new opportunities.

[DabigRG]

6 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

 

If people hate the Freedom Fighters that much (which is one thing I’m actually going to doubt and say a good chunk that do are only doing this out of petty spite towards others as usual in this fandom and should know better), why don’t they find something else in the franchise they like? 

I found myself asking that general question sometimes.

[UnknownByME]

I really want more of a focus on Knuckles, Silver, Shadow, and other game characters, and I generally feel kinda meh regarding the FF and Tangle & Whisper.

So while I'm not opposed to them appearing somehow, I don't really think it's that important, and would rather see whoever replaces Pontaff to focus more on the characters they already have.

[Big Panda]

Question: if Bunnie was in IDW, how would her half-robot parts be interpreted?

[UnknownByME]

6 minutes ago, Big Panda said:

Question: if Bunnie was in IDW, how would her half-robot parts be interpreted?

Metal Virus gone wrong?

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Big Panda said:

Question: if Bunnie was in IDW, how would her half-robot parts be interpreted?

I was gonna say the way it was in the reboot, but apparently there's some dispareceny around that stuff.

[Big Panda]

40 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I was gonna say the way it was in the reboot, but apparently there's some dispareceny around that stuff.

There’s no indication that robotisation exists in IDW.

[Shadowlax]

She could just be a handicapible person. Doesn't really need that indepth explanation. She has some limbs to help her do what she needs to do. All it needs to be

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Big Panda said:

There’s no indication that robotisation exists in IDW.

Was she roboticized still? I thought Chuck explicitly had to replace her arm and legs with bionics after she nearly got crushed.

[Big Panda]

35 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Was she roboticized still? I thought Chuck explicitly had to replace her arm and legs with bionics after she nearly got crushed.

It never really got far enough in to fully explain it.

We know that Uncle Chuck supplied Bunnie with her robotic limbs. We also know that robotisization existed and that Chuck was still the creator of it. Ergo, Chuck could have half-robotisized Bunnie.

Unless I’m misremembering, I don’t think it was ever explicitely stated that Bunnie had to, say, undergo amputation or whatever.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Big Panda said:

It never really got far enough in to fully explain it.

We know that Uncle Chuck supplied Bunnie with her robotic limbs. We also know that robotisization existed and that Chuck was still the creator of it. Ergo, Chuck could have half-robotisized Bunnie.

Unless I’m misremembering, I don’t think it was ever explicitely stated that Bunnie had to, say, undergo amputation or whatever.

Mm, true.

I was mainly thinking of the fact that Eggman stole it during his initial conquest until it was no longer a viable option.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

7 hours ago, Big Panda said:

Question: if Bunnie was in IDW, how would her half-robot parts be interpreted?

As cybernetics she needed to get by. That was essentially her new interpretation in the Archie Reboot, and it’s simple enough to keep it that way instead of the original done via roboticization. 

Not much different to Deus Ex HR where the main character was saved by cybernetics.

[Shadowlax]

Bunnie is really easy to explain. The only " weirdness " with her isn't with her. more so the series introduces the premise of " oh yeah there a guy who scienced so hard he could grow organic matter" . Those sorts of plot points or world point are always weird because the question becomes...ok find someone else who can figure that out.

Its like when barbra gordon got paralyzed in a world where like andriods that look like people exist. There's a lot of world you gotta ignore for no one to mention the giant advances in science that exist that would make such injuries somewhat irrelevant.

So that's a little weird. But outside of that its not really hard.

[Big Panda]

I went back and read Bunnie’s Sonic Comic Origin story. It was robotisization.

[DabigRG]

25 minutes ago, Big Panda said:

I went back and read Bunnie’s Sonic Comic Origin story. It was robotisization.

Okay, so Eggman either didn't steal it just yet or those two pulled off one helluva infiltration.

Thanks, it's been a while.