Canon Immigrants

[Dr. Detective]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Also Espio and Marine. 

Espio typed on a computer once in a game. I don't think that makes him a techno genius. Despite having a more serious demeanor, he certainly isn't smarter than his boss either.

And Marine is a character they've clearly abandoned immediately after her debut aside from the occasional meaningless mention or cameo. Like those Sonic Channel comics or showing up as a costume in the Olympic Games. 

2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

If that is a rule, they are extremely lax about enforcing it. Wave and Nega aside, even as recently as TSR saw new techno savvy characters step into that ring. DoDonPa had tech that put even Tails and Eggman on notice (on top of his masterpiece at the end of the game, he also had access to both time and tras-dimentional travel). He even belittled other characters for their lack of technical acumen and talked shop with Eggman.

Yeah, it's clearly not something that's at all enforced if it is true. 

This is another thing to take note of when it comes to these games. They're not consistent with whatever rules they have. What we know about the world and the way it functions now could flip on a dime the instant Iizuka or someone else decides they want to pull another George Lucas.

"No, this isn't my perfect vision that I keep changing~!" 

 

[DabigRG]

14 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Espio typed on a computer once in a game. I don't think that makes him a techno genius. Despite having a more serious demeanor, he certainly isn't smarter than his boss either.

 

I thought it was mentioned somewhere that Espio was supposed to be a hacker as well? 

 

14 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Espio typed on a computer once in a game. I don't think that makes him a techno genius. Despite having a more serious demeanor, he certainly isn't smarter than his boss either.

And Marine is a character they've clearly abandoned immediately after her debut aside from the occasional meaningless mention or cameo. Like those Sonic Channel comics or showing up as a costume in the Olympic Games. 

Yeah, it's clearly not something that's at all enforced if it is true. 

This is another thing to take note of when it comes to these games. They're not consistent with whatever rules they have. What we know about the world and the way it functions now could flip on a dime the instant Iizuka or someone else decides they want to pull another George Lucas.

"No, this isn't my perfect vision that I keep changing~!" 

 

.

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

I thought it was mentioned somewhere that Espio was supposed to be a hacker as well? 

He was specifically saying the opposite of that in the only scene that has him using a computer.

[Iko]

The reason for why I think that the not-game characters shouldn't appear in games (aside of maybe meaningless cameos) is because those characters are probably not directly owned by Sega/Sonic Team, they can appear in games thanks to a deal, the deal may end some day, and you have a Geno from Super Mario RPG situation (fans want the characters back, the company can't use them because they don't own the rights).

I've never been a fan of Sonic's other media... I wathced a bit of Sonic X (a couple of episodes after the SA2 arc then I stopped for some reason I can't remember), and I'm considering some day to look at the IDW comics since they seem to be closer to the game's canon than anything produced so far, but I usually prefer to stay with the game's universe, not just for Sonic but for every other series that has a splitted canon among different medias.

I like what I have seen of Tangle and Whisper, because they seem to be designed with gameplay in mind... I can see why some people may want them in the games.

Whisper is the definitive avatar, she can be the exploit to keep Wisps around in the game's canon and at the same time limit them to only this character, so Sonic can get his traditional gameplay back; she is also only partially a comic OC, in fact she's an avatar, the design is slighty changed to give her more personality and a better look, but the base concept is that she's just a Forces' avatar, and Forces' avatar is a game character (even though it can be customized, unless you take that "Buddy" default avatar from the trailer).

Tangle is probably the most interesting, due to her ability being physical and based on her species, the classic way of making Sonic characters.

But at the end of the day, I'd prefer to see Big the Cat use that fishing rod to do what Tanglle can do in the comics. I'd like to see Cheese controlled like Sticks' controllable boomerang, and we already have a default avatar, if they want to bring him back, there's Buddy... and if we need a robot character for gameplay purposes, there's plenty of them already both from the heroes' side and from the villains' side (Omega, Gemerl, Metal Sonic, even Orbot & Cubot, they could be assembled to a bigger robot body for some hilarious miniboss sequences). I don't think it's necessary to have the comic/cartoon characters in the game canon when there are already some characters that cover their skills and in some cases even their backstories.

But I'm not opposed to that either... as long as it doesn't mean replacing the enstabilished characters to leave room for them.

 

[Splash the Otter]

I'd rather have Rough and Tumble in the games than Tangle and Whisper.

[DabigRG]

3 hours ago, Splash the Otter said:

I'd rather have Rough and Tumble in the games than Tangle and Whisper.

Mm...yeah, I suppose that makes sense.

[Pengi]

10 hours ago, Iko said:

The reason for why I think that the not-game characters shouldn't appear in games (aside of maybe meaningless cameos) is because those characters are probably not directly owned by Sega/Sonic Team, they can appear in games thanks to a deal, the deal may end some day, and you have a Geno from Super Mario RPG situation (fans want the characters back, the company can't use them because they don't own the rights).

 

Sega owns all the IDW Sonic comic characters. 

The previous comic's character rights problems came from '90s era Archie messing up by either not getting the writers/artists to sign work for hire contracts, or losing their records of the work for hire contracts. After that fiasco, there's no way anyone involved would allow that to happen again.

[DabigRG]

Actually, the AoStH and the SatAM casts are owned by SEGA, if I heard right. 

The Archie original stuff(minus at least Null Mind and Cortez) are indeed swampy due to the writer contracts issue and some other complication that apparently arose with it ending, but the cartoon stuff still being out for IDW for the forseeable future is explicitly due to SEGA themselves.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

They are, as are any other Post-reboot Archie characters to my knowledge. 

Only thing that might be uncertain are those from Chronicles, to my knowledge, and even then I’m pretty sure Sega still owns them too.

[DabigRG]

48 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

They are, as are any other Post-reboot Archie characters to my knowledge. 

Only thing that might be uncertain are those from Chronicles, to my knowledge, and even then I’m pretty sure Sega still owns them too.

Oh yeah, if I remember correctly, apparently SEGA was fine with them being used in the reboot, but Archie were wary anyway. 

[Pengi]

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Actually, the AoStH and the SatAM casts are owned by SEGA, if I heard right. 

Who is this in response to? I don't think anyone said otherwise.

[DabigRG]

37 minutes ago, Pengi said:

Who is this in response to? I don't think anyone said otherwise.

Um...I guess you, since your comment is the most recent one that references Archie and by extension DiC.

[Your Vest Friend]

Espio is commonly seen as the hacker (despite canon evidence to the contrary) because Archie Sonic kept pushing him as one years in a row, even during the post--reboot era (and I think even IDW has a fragment of it). 

[DabigRG]

10 minutes ago, Your Vest Friend said:

Espio is commonly seen as the hacker (despite canon evidence to the contrary) because Archie Sonic kept pushing him as one years in a row, even during the post--reboot era (and I think even IDW has a fragment of it). 

Oh, so it's just one of things that blossomed for one minor happening, sorta like Tails being a genius or Knuckles being gullible.

 

[Red Hot Jack]

I still think there are similarities between Sally and Tangle, similar silhouette and both are the faces of their respective comics, but in reality Tangle is a lot more similar to Sonic in personality, which is her big problem, she could use some more differences from the blue hedgehog.

But she is way better than Sally as comic exclusive character in my opinion, I'm glad for what Ian did to Sally during the reboot, but still she's obviously the precious writer pet who steals the show, perfect in every way, with big responsibilities on her shoulder, a princess, I know I'm describing a Mary Sue, but I don't want to call Sally that because it's superficial. Tangle is the variant on the other hand, a very simple character like Sonic who acts in weird moves, confident but wacky, hyperactive and coolest thing of all… she is ordinary with a boring life, she wants to be a hero but she's afraid to leave her buddy and home town unprotected, her mini-series will show what she's capable of, besides the fact that she has an interesting gameplay gimmick. Because honestly, in her debut issue, she was just a random girl who crushes on Blaze.

Whisper is also sweet, she fits into the Sonic narrative, into the Avatar gameplay with her wispon and Wisps team, and to counter Tangle, she has a complicated origin story apparently. I'm explaining this for those who don't know the characters and haven't read IDW, but both are great in fact I would say that Tangle & Whisper are female versions of Sonic and Shadow, but they are friends instead of rivals, and there is a lot more to uncover for them beneath the surface.

As for the other Freedom Fighters, I was never a fan of them but still, in the reboot they were decent, Antoine I kind of dig for his fears but occasional exploits of bravery, which is cool, but he's still the typical cliché of an arrogant snob french, eh, Bunnie is interesting, and so is Nicole, at least post-reboot. Rotor, sadly, I never could stand, for multiple reasons.

 

Long story short, the FFs had 20+ years of stories, most of which are mediocre, and I never liked to see them as heroes alongside Sonic, meanwhile Tangle and Whisper have won me over (and a lot more people) with just 5-6 appearances, and I'm curious to know more about them and explore them as characters, so that might be why… they are still unexplored territory and that picks my interest?

[DabigRG]

47 minutes ago, Tangled Jack said:

I still think there are similarities between Sally and Tangle, similar silhouette and both are the faces of their respective comics, but in reality Tangle is a lot more similar to Sonic in personality, which is her big problem, she could use some more differences from the blue hedgehog.

But she is way better than Sally as comic exclusive character in my opinion, I'm glad for what Ian did to Sally during the reboot, but still she's obviously the precious writer pet who steals the show, perfect in every way, with big responsibilities on her shoulder, a princess, I know I'm describing a Mary Sue, but I don't want to call Sally that because it's superficial. Tangle is the variant on the other hand, a very simple character like Sonic who acts in weird moves, confident but wacky, hyperactive and coolest thing of all… she is ordinary with a boring life, she wants to be a hero but she's afraid to leave her buddy and home town unprotected, her mini-series will show what she's capable of, besides the fact that she has an interesting gameplay gimmick. Because honestly, in her debut issue, she was just a random girl who crushes on Blaze.

Whisper is also sweet, she fits into the Sonic narrative, into the Avatar gameplay with her wispon and Wisps team, and to counter Tangle, she has a complicated origin story apparently. I'm explaining this for those who don't know the characters and haven't read IDW, but both are great in fact I would say that Tangle & Whisper are female versions of Sonic and Shadow, but they are friends instead of rivals, and there is a lot more to uncover for them beneath the surface.

As for the other Freedom Fighters, I was never a fan of them but still, in the reboot they were decent, Antoine I kind of dig for his fears but occasional exploits of bravery, which is cool, but he's still the typical cliché of an arrogant snob french, eh, Bunnie is interesting, and so is Nicole, at least post-reboot. Rotor, sadly, I never could stand, for multiple reasons.

 

Long story short, the FFs had 20+ years of stories, most of which are mediocre, and I never liked to see them as heroes alongside Sonic, meanwhile Tangle and Whisper have won me over (and a lot more people) with just 5-6 appearances, and I'm curious to know more about them and explore them as characters, so that might be why… they are still unexplored territory and that picks my interest?

Oh Cheese and Rice 

[Kazhnuz]

1 hour ago, Tangled Jack said:

she's obviously the precious writer pet who steals the show, perfect in every way, with big responsibilities on her shoulder

I totally disagree on that point: she wasn't much that anymore in the reboot, actually. She is a nearly shown as an emotional wreck at some moment, that failed some mission pretty hard and shown to be a bit too nervous and bossy, and that need the other to work well… And each time there were a "who is right and who is wrong debate", most character were arguing for the "right" thing, and not just her, so the isn't shown to be standing out to other character on that point. (even if I have a problem on that last point, I would have loved that at least once, Rotor "pragmatic vision" would have been right, in order to make it more interesting). TBH, she isn't more a "mary-sue" or "perfect" than many actual official characters. TBH, the biggest thing that are still "like that" is that she have big responsibilities" (that are way more shared than before) and a "neat title". Not unlike Knuckles, Shadow, Blaze…

The case of "precious writer pet" is especially interesting though, as in the case of the reboot era, we got a lot of people saying that Amy was that, and other saying that Sally was that. And both side accused Flynn of disadventaging the other character. And I already see some anti-IDW people accusing the new character of being that. There will always be people to accuse writers of disadvantaging their character or to "replacing them" with other (or new character to be either "mary-sue" either "unlikable"). It's a bit of a vision that exists in fandom - I don't say that any fans thinks like that - where the writers should do a story not to tell a story, but to create some kind of "justice" for characters, in a sort of "democratic" vision that doesn't really suit storytelling imho.

 

For the rest : eh, I don't really care who get the sunlight, not anybody can be in any story, and there will be always other stories. I don't need any character to appear in the game, but I would love a lot of them to appear even just once, just to see what game story can be told with them. As I said, any character can do, if the writer have a good idea to what to do with them. All of them have a lot of potential, and can be the source of thousand of interesting and fresh stories. The question is just to use them to actually tell story (or/and use them in a interesting way gameplay-wise) instead of just wanting to "please". That's why I said

But I think that the subject of "how could we make any character appear in the game" is pretty interesting, because it add to us another constraint. Mostly, a game character is designed often around what is needed for the game. Here, we have some constraint based on what was already here. And that's what can make us especially smart of creative. Writing is always more creative under constraint, because it force us to think more. To find solution to get most of what we want, while making it work with the constraints.

For Tangle and Whisper, that's especially interesting because we already have a blueprint. For Tangle, I can imagine something very aerial, with importance of grabing and air action. (and as a lemur, she could also be especially good to climb ?). For whisper, it would especially be usefull to have a more "action-y" gameplay (and for me it would solve one big weakness of the avatar, that we have to always change weapon outside of act, making it less interesting imho). But there are a lot of possibilities.

[DabigRG]

I kinda don't wanna dwell on it, but honestly the stuff aimed at Sally does come across as people holding stigmas towards her and/or refusing to let go. 

The reboot honestly seemed to do what it could reasonably to not focus on her specifically. Most of the princess responsibility/royal history had be scaled to background basics for understandable reasons, her home was just made a part of half the nowadays irrelevant Classic locales, her character was primarily used as a foil(her initial purpose) and facilitator for other characters, and "most crucial of all," any of the shipping shit had been wiped out of relevance entirely. And much of her defining attributes and especially distinctions among the cast had been downplayed to fit her in with the new status quo. As opposed to the other Freedom Fighters having various preexisting traits played up and getting new expansive back stories tying them to greater world & beyond.

So she kinda falls into a "was once and thus must always be" box out of universe, which is essentially a fallacy.

 

 

 

[Pengi]

11 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Um...I guess you, since your comment is the most recent one that references Archie and by extension DiC.

When you begin a sentence with "Actually" it implies that the thing you're responding to is factually incorrect. I didn't mention the cartoon characters at all.

[Iko]

17 hours ago, Pengi said:

 

Sega owns all the IDW Sonic comic characters. 

The previous comic's character rights problems came from '90s era Archie messing up by either not getting the writers/artists to sign work for hire contracts, or losing their records of the work for hire contracts. After that fiasco, there's no way anyone involved would allow that to happen again.

 

Well, in that case it would be cool.

I'm not much informed about that kind of stuff, though I wouldn't mind Tangle & Whisper in the games as long as they don't replace the existing characters.

[Wraith]

2 hours ago, Iko said:

 

 

I'm not much informed about that kind of stuff, though I wouldn't mind Tangle & Whisper in the games as long as they don't replace the existing characters.

There was never a reason to believe they would. 

[StaticMania]

There's no reason to think they would since this is a hypothetical situation...

Fear the worst.

Ignore the likely.

[Red Hot Jack]

Theoretically there's no reason to have T&W in the games, other than:

- They would work well as gameplay

- More people would get to know them

But I still think that, with so many characters underused, there is just no place for them, maybe in spin-offs but then there's no point in adding them if they can't use their trademark skills, and with no story context. At least in the comics they have quality time and a well written story.

The last thing I want to mention with the FFs comparisons and then I quit: Sonic was highly dependant on the Freedom Fighters, meanwhile Tangle and Whisper are their own heroes already, yes they were part of the resistance for a brief time but other than that, they are not mainstays on Sonic's team, they have their own adventures.

[Wraith]

19 minutes ago, Tangled Jack said:

Theoretically there's no reason to have T&W in the games, other than:

- They would work well as gameplay

 

There's no better reason to add a character than this.

[Dr. Detective]

As far as the fear of "replacements" goes, who would they even replace?

Tangle is supposed to be an audience surrogate for the newbies according to Flynn and we've got really no clue what Whisper's deal is yet.

The fear of adding more clutter to the expansive cast of Heroes is a much more valid fear, and one I do ultimately agree with. Its not as though there can't exist ways around this issue, of course. Its just that the larger the main cast becomes the harder it is to maintain a comfortable balance and the more talent and effort is needed to keep things in check. 

More villains and reoccuring friendly story NPCs are things I'd welcome with open arms though.