Canon Immigrants

[DabigRG]

16 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

There's also the fact that stuff Like Sally and Bunnie's backstories would clash heavily with Game Sonic lore, and Rotor's role would clash with Tails , and Antoine would never work in the Post-Bush era where people associate that type of stereotypes with  Iraq war supporters. 

Uh, do they?

Cause I'm thinking off the top of my head and aside from maybe a slight tweak to Bunnie(which may not be necessary), I don't really see a problem with them beyond the protracted "How much they should be around Sonic" thing, which is easily solved by the status quo anyway.

What's that about Antoine, btw?

[Tornado]

10 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

It's almost as if  Tangle and whisper were created with Sonic's lore and style in mind while the Freedom Fighters were created by people who weren't given any info on Sonic besides being a cool fast dude with attitude

This would be more of an argument if the comic had been cancelled when Penders was still working on it rather than long after deliberate attempts were made to line it up more with the games. And then it was rebooted.

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Antoine would never work in the Post-Bush era where people associate that type of stereotypes with  Iraq war supporters. 

I imagine the overwhelming majority of the people buying IDW weren't even alive for Bush era politicking.

 

 

 

Since, you know, FREEDOM FRIES and shit like that was over 15 years ago.

[Kazhnuz]

5 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

There's also the fact that stuff Like Sally and Bunnie's backstories would clash heavily with Game Sonic lore, and Rotor's role would clash with Tails , and Antoine would never work in the Post-Bush era where people associate that type of stereotypes with  Iraq war supporters. 

Antoine, Iraq war supporter ? He basically have three thing in it : being a swordman (which isn't very compatible), being afraid easily (I don't see the reference) and being French (which isn't compatible with the stereotype).

And to be frank, if the FF ever appeared, they would be reworked quite a bit to fit. And with the last games, their backstory is way easier to introduce in the universe (I mean, their backstory is basically "our town have been invaded by Eggman during his world invasion".)

But them appearing or not isn't really the topic :V

25 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Which would then run into the issue of pushing out established characters just to make new additions more valuable.

Only if they actually push the established characters. Honestly it's not that hard to make characters work together, even when they are pretty similar. It's more a matter of writing, and taking the time to work this right. Neither Tangle nor Whisper have to push characters out, as their personallity isn't that similar to other character. They have even be made to play of other characters and add strenght to those character.

[Sean]

Character backstories can be revamped to suit the needs of the Sega canon. In fact, Ian did a pretty decent job of doing this with the rebooted Archie. For example Sonic isn't a childhood friend of Sally's anymore and just met her at some point during one of his adventures. The only reason people don't want the freedom fighters in the games is because of bias against non-game characters that permeated in the fanbase for years before IDW came along and magically changed all that due to vindicating the fans clamoring for all of Archie to be thrown out despite Ian's best efforts.

Also...

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and Rotor's role would clash with Tails

Just like how Shadow, Jet, and Johnny clash with Metal Sonic's role as Sonic's rival, right?

 

 

To contribute to the topic at hand, I don't know about Whisper but I think characters like Tangle and Bunnie would be great fits for the Sega games gameplay-wise. I think Tangle's natural abilities could even lend itself pretty well to the Genesis games' one-button-only design by having her tail extend to a nearby tree, pole, etc. in mid-air, and you can swing on them as long as you hold down the button. Sort of like a grappling hook I guess. There's more you can do with her in a 3D space though with more buttons at your disposal, and that goes for Bunnie too who can do a ton with her unique robotic abilities. The Bunnie in Sonic 1 hack by E-122-Psi is one of my favorite characters hacks to play so I'd probably build off of that, especially her long-range and hovering techniques.

[Celestia]

On 7/11/2019 at 2:51 PM, ComeAsYouAre said:

There's also the fact that stuff Like Sally and Bunnie's backstories would clash heavily with Game Sonic lore,

Literally how?

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and Rotor's role would clash with Tails ,

Yeah, there can only be one protagonist ever who builds things.

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and Antoine would never work in the Post-Bush era where people associate that type of stereotypes with  Iraq war supporters. 

This one is just nonsense I'm pretty sure.

Like, don't get me wrong. I don't care about someone not really caring about the FF or whatever, that's fine and I think as far as gameplay goes the only one I could imagine bringing something super unique to the table is Bunnie (which would be awesome). But if we're just talking how the characters would fit in the universe or narrative...

'06 is '06, I know, but that had a kingdom with a princess! Those can exist! Lost World established something akin to roboticization (to the point where the Archie reboot portrayed what happened to Bunnie similarly IIRC). Again, Tails is not the only person who can build things, if anything I wouldn't mind if a character like Rotor took up that role so Tails could maybe do other things too (lol). Nicole is maybe the only thing we haven't really seen before in the games as far as I can recall, but an A.I. that achieves sentience is hardly a huge stretch for a series as weird as this.

I never understood the argument from that angle is all.

[ComeAsYouAre]

1 minute ago, Kazhnuz said:

Antoine, Iraq war supporter ? He basically have three thing in it : being a swordman (which isn't very compatible), being afraid easily (I don't see the reference) and being French (which isn't compatible with the stereotype)

The whole cowardly french stereotype is nowadays associated with "overly patriotic muricans who are ignorant about other cultures" 

6 minutes ago, Tornado said:

This would be more of an argument if the comic had been cancelled when Penders was still working on it rather than long after deliberate attempts were made to line it up more with the games. And then it was rebooted.

That Reboot caused a huge controversy , with many people claiming that it "Ruined" the Freedom Fighters

5 minutes ago, Sean said:

Just like how Shadow, Jet, and Johnny clash with Metal Sonic's role as Sonic's rival, right?

Actually yes, Sonic has too many Rivals at the moment , and that list includes Knuckles Antoine and even Mighty

[DabigRG]

8 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

 

Only if they actually push the established characters. Honestly it's not that hard to make characters work together, even when they are pretty similar. It's more a matter of writing, and taking the time to work this right. Neither Tangle nor Whisper have to push characters out, as their personallity isn't that similar to other character. They have even be made to play of other characters and add strenght to those character.

Agreed.

Well, except Tangle's personality, but you're right regardless.

9 minutes ago, Sean said:

 

Just like how Shadow, Jet, and Johnny clash with Metal Sonic's role as Sonic's rival, right?

Johnny is actually a perfect example of where the redundancy/devaluing issue doesn't hold much water(heh).

He might be a cocky speedster who challenges the heroes to races, but he's also a Nega Droid(I think), seemingly prefers jet skis, and lives in an entirely different dimension--Blaze's, to be exact. 

Which means he's sequestered off into his own context and doesn't necessarily overlap beyond the barest of similarities.

[Tornado]

13 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

The whole cowardly french stereotype is nowadays associated with "overly patriotic muricans who are ignorant about other cultures" 

Perhaps let something other than Huffington Post comment sections shape your view of character tropes in media. It's a rather outdated trait for a character to have since nowadays France is the de facto bully in world affairs that the US doesn't bother getting involved with; but not at all one that morphed into turning Bush-era right-wing sentiment (which was mocked even at the time) into popular American opinion either for against. Nor was it ever exclusively an American character concept in the first place. Nor was Antoine really much like he was in SatAM for too terribly long after SatAM ended anyway.

 

 

And, again, the majority of people who play Sonic games or read the Sonic comics in 2019 aren't going to be ones who were having strong political opinions about current events circa-2003.

 

13 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

That Reboot caused a huge controversy , with many people claiming that it "Ruined" the Freedom Fighters

It's hard to kick a field goal when you move goal posts to the moon.

[ComeAsYouAre]

11 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Like, '06 is '06, I know, but that had a kingdom with a princess! Those can exist! Lost World established something akin to roboticization (to the point where the Archie reboot portrayed what happened to Bunnie similarly IIRC). Again, Tails is not the only person who can build things, if anything I wouldn't mind if a character like Rotor too up that role so Tails could maybe do other things too (lol). Nicole is maybe the only thing we haven't really seen before in the games as far as I can recall, but an A.I. that achieves sentience is hardly a huge stretch for a series as weird as this.

A kingdom with a Princess isn't the problem, the problem is the idea that Sonic and Co are associated with it given  their in Game portrayal of International and even Interdimensional heroes not bound by any State. And Lost World's roboticization was kinda different as it's closer to mind control than DNA Change , and yes I do know that Bunnie's backstory was changed .

 

And Rotor didn't just take tails role as the Mechanic, he also was portrayed as "Sonic's Bro" for some time due to Tails being written as Sonic's little brother figure rather than his best friend 

23 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Like, don't get me wrong. I don't care about someone not really caring about the FF or whatever, 

I never said I dislike the FF

[StaticMania]

Not Caring =/= Dislike

[DabigRG]

5 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

A kingdom with a Princess isn't the problem, the problem is the idea that Sonic and Co are associated with it given  their in Game portrayal of International and even Interdimensional heroes not bound by any State. 

 

Knuckles is native to Angel Island, Big lives in a shack within the Mystic Ruins' Jungle, Rouge works for GUN & the United Nations, etc. 

6 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

 And Lost World's roboticization was kinda different as it's closer to mind control than DNA Change

A bit off topic within something off topic, I realize, but I do kinda wonder a bit what the end goal was supposed to be overall.

I mean, Underground's Roboticization was close iirc, but Tails messing with the process is the general point of the result.

So there's technically some loose ambiguity.

8 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

 

And Rotor didn't just take tails role as the Mechanic, he also was portrayed as "Sonic's Bro" for some time due to Tails being written as Sonic's little brother figure rather than his best friend 

 

Eh, was he?

Like, it's been a good while, but the closest I can think of is the early days of Preboot. Which I really wouldn't describe as a brother relationship; Rotor doesn't clock in near that to begin with.

[Red Hot Jack]

I don't want to get into an argument for criticizing the Freedom Fighters again, but yes, they were created for an edgy cartoon with Sonic slapped in it. Before Sonic's image was unified. And frankly they are not relevant anymore. Tangle and Whisper are popular right how and fit Sonic's lore and story. That's the difference. I still don't think having them in the games is a good idea.

[DabigRG]

1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

Not Caring =/= Dislike

Eh, technically yes, but it can also technically quantify very loosely.

[Wraith]

I don't mind opening up the floor to the archie characters since Tangle and Whisper aren't much of a discussion on their. Even if you think they don't "fit", maybe talk about how you'd fix that problem instead, yeah?

Bunnie is kind of the same as Tangle where  back when I used to fanfiction movesets together I wanted to focus on some sort of grapple ability, but the thing about robotic limbs is that you can do a lot more. Go full DMC5 and give her a few different types of limbs to use. 

[Tornado]

2 minutes ago, Tangled Jack said:

And frankly they are not relevant anymore. Tangle and Whisper are popular right how and fit Sonic's lore and story. That's the difference.

So there in fact is no difference to warrant a change in that viewpoint now.

[StaticMania]

3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Eh, technically yes, but it can also technically quantify very loosely.

Minimal corrections.

Rather there be no confusion.

[ComeAsYouAre]

3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Not Caring =/= Dislike

I  never said I didn't care about them either, I grew up watching them , I just don't think that you can put them in the games without a lot of issues

4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Knuckles is native to Angel Island, Big lives in a shack within the Mystic Ruins' Jungle, Rouge works for GUN & the United Nations, etc

Knuckles and Team Dark are kinda of an exception, and Knuckles is his own government so he doesn't really count

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I don't mind opening up the floor to the archie characters since Tangle and Whisper aren't much of a discussion on their. Even if you think they don't "fit", maybe talk about how you'd fix that problem instead, yeah?

I have some ideas but a lot of them might piss off fans of these characters as I think they need to change a lot about them

[Sean]

12 minutes ago, Tangled Jack said:

but yes, they were created for an edgy cartoon with Sonic slapped in it. Before Sonic's image was unified. And frankly they are not relevant anymore.

There really is no reasoning with this mentality, is there? Conveniently ignoring the 20+ years of the Archie comic's existence and the handful of reinventions it went through even before the reboot mean  apparently nothing when they were initially created for a TV show that was more or less following the narrative SoA was trying to push with its version of Sonic anyway. If you still think that their origins alone are what deem them to the garbage bin and that absolutely nothing can be done to salvage them then there's nothing else for me to comment other than the fanbase's views haven't actually changed whatsoever.

In fact, if you really subscribe to this thinking then please tell me why there isn't a problem with Iizuka reinventing the Chaotix for Sonic Heroes? He explicitly treated them as new characters revamped to fit the modern games' needs, rather than as "returning" characters generally. The reason that this can't be applied to non-game characters is because...??

[StaticMania]

Just now, ComeAsYouAre said:

...I just don't think that you can put them in the games without a lot of issues

You verily can.

The backstories are the least important part of them at a base level...literally except for Bunnie.

[Kazhnuz]

30 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

A kingdom with a Princess isn't the problem, the problem is the idea that Sonic and Co are associated with it given  their in Game portrayal of International and even Interdimensional heroes not bound by any State. And Lost World's roboticization was kinda different as it's closer to mind control than DNA Change , and yes I do know that Bunnie's backstory was changed . 

Then the biggest change would be that the Freedom Fighter are an already existing group that happen to exists inside the Sonic Universe a bit on their own, kinda like Team Chaotix (that doesn't have Knuckles part of it anymore in the games). TBH, I think that if they ever happened to for some magical reason come into the game, they would follow a bit of the Chaotix road, in that they would be adapted with some change.

If we had to retool them even more (which for me would be more interesting, because I always love when a new interesting twist is added), I would be pretty interested by an idea that would make them more "serious-minded" than Sonic and the other, and maybe clash with them in how they can deal with Eggman, or about Sonic and co just go around the world without any organization of sort (the old tropes of "the more-organized group at first doesn't like the heroes pretty much, but finally come down to like them", which works pretty well if the character have good reason to be how they are).

 

For me, it's exactly like Tangle and Whisper actually : find a good story to tell, find a good gameplay to do (or not if the character isn't mean to be playable), and you can do it. Whisper could do a great story with her character and the possibility of keeping her possible resentment against Shadow. Both Tangle and Whisper have a lot of gameplay perspective.

TBH, I don't think that any comic character that existed post-2012 couldn't fit if they have good ideas : they have been made for a strongly game-like universe (sure with some self-contained element added, but... Like most of the story-heavier game ? I mean, most of the character have some kind of "own lore", so it wouldn't work that bad for me), element of older series have been really retooled to suit the game universe, and all design have been streamlined to be game-like. It's mostly a matter of doing the work of introducing, and finding good tropes where they would be useful.

And tbh, I think that many characters made for Sonic other media could be retooled or reworked that way, as the game universe is pretty diverse, and reference a lot of things. It would be some work, sure, but... as is any story writing.

 

( I'm not saying that every character created for Sonic should necessarily appear in a game, though. I would be more for some kind of "transmedia" thingy, with a single continuity covered by several medias, each exploring different adventures and different "part" of the canon, with reference when it make sense. Some kind of "Sonic Extended Universe". )

[ComeAsYouAre]

14 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

If we had to retool them even more (which for me would be more interesting, because I always love when a new interesting twist is added), I would be pretty interested by an idea that would make them more "serious-minded" than Sonic and the other, and maybe clash with them in how they can deal with Eggman, or about Sonic and co just go around the world without any organisation of sort (the old tropes of "the more-organized group at first doesn't like the heroes pretty much, but finally come down to like them", which works pretty well if the character have good reason to be how they are)

IMO the biggest contrast between them and SEGA characters is that Game Sonic characters are usually over the top personification  of Western Pop Culture and Music Genres from a Japanese perspective, kinda of an Anthro JoJo if you get what I mean,   meanwhile the Freedom Fighters are much more based on the somewhat more DiC Styled Disneylite design of the 80's/90's Anthro cartoons. 

 

Highlighting these differences with a conflict between the Serious and Down to Earth Freedom Fighters and the Hammy melodramatic sonic and friends characters is probably the only way to fit them in without completely changing them , maybe in a SA2 styled game

[Dr. Detective]

I've never really thought about how to implement Tangle or Whisper into the games. What comes to mind is more of a Musso styled Sonic Warriors game when I think about it for some reason. You'd never see me again if a game like that came out. 

I suppose Tangle would be more like a faster werehog. Stretchy limbs and swinging on shit but at a speed closer to what you'd expect for Sonic and pals.

Really, when it comes to the elements I'd like to see from the comic coming to the games, what comes to mind as far as characters is Dr. Starline more than anyone else. I just really love his design and the way he carries himself. I know people make the argument that we need more villains and while I do largely consider a Batman Rogues gallery to be more of a luxury than a necessity I'm certainly not going to say no to the idea of it. I feel he'd be an excellent way to start. In theory.

You still have to deal with the fact that it's the Sonic Team of today who'd be handling him and they're definitely not going to know what to do. 

He probably wouldn't be the worst of it though. A character like Rotor, who I personally feel the comic was struggling to find a significant fit for after Tails was fully settled into his role, would most definitely end up feeling like an unnecessary add-on in their hands. The comics tried their best to keep Rotor interesting but as someone who didn't care much for the Freedom Fighters, it was hard to let go of that personal bias that saw him as a little tenuous. 

That feeling would most likely disappear if he was incorporated into the games that had his role be as separate from Sonic and Tails as possible. Same goes for the other Freedom Fighters. Perhaps use them as an opportunity to get that all-animal military going since, apparently, G.U.N exists in another dimension now. Having Rotor be the smart mechanic guy who works for the military of their world rather than just another guy Sonic can fall back on for techno-babble would do well to justify his appearance. It's not like we can't have more than one smart dude.

Oh wait. I think I heard somewhere that Tails and Eggman are the only smart guys allowed. And I suppose both Wave and Eggman Nega are negligible enough that it doesn't matter if their existence contradicts that supposed rule.

Bah. Whatever. This is all free-flowing thought anyway. You can't stop us, Sonic Team!

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

I don't mind opening up the floor to the archie characters since Tangle and Whisper aren't much of a discussion on their. Even if you think they don't "fit", maybe talk about how you'd fix that problem instead, yeah?

Mm...yeah, I suppose.

I personally just didn't wanna risk overly distracting and/or hijacking the original point of this thread.

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

Minimal corrections.

Rather there be no confusion.

Obliged. 

1 hour ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

 

Knuckles and Team Dark are kinda of an exception,

I have some ideas but a lot of them might piss off fans of these characters as I think they need to change a lot about them

Exceptions that set [retroactive(?)] precedent.

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and Knuckles is his own government so he doesn't really count

 True dat.

1 hour ago, Kazhnuz said:

Then the biggest change would be that the Freedom Fighter are an already existing group that happen to exists inside the Sonic Universe a bit on their own, kinda like Team Chaotix (that doesn't have Knuckles part of it anymore in the games). TBH, I think that if they ever happened to for some magical reason come into the game, they would follow a bit of the Chaotix road, in that they would be adapted with some change.

 

Essentially.

And the Reboot was establishing that that's the case when they got the opportunity: A group of young Kingdom (word for person of essential help) inspired by the heroism of Sonic and Tails to eventually take a stand when Eggman and Naugus mess things up.

 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

 

Really, when it comes to the elements I'd like to see from the comic coming to the games, what comes to mind as far as characters is Dr. Starline more than anyone else. I just really love his design and the way he carries himself. I know people make the argument that we need more villains and while I do largely consider a Batman Rogues gallery to be more of a luxury than a necessity I'm certainly not going to say no to the idea of it. I feel he'd be an excellent way to start. In theory.

Yeah, he's definitely a good fit. 

It helps that he's essentially if Dave the Intern was more like Dr. Finitevus.

[Sega DogTagz]

4 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Oh wait. I think I heard somewhere that Tails and Eggman are the only smart guys allowed. And I suppose both Wave and Eggman Nega are negligible enough that it doesn't matter if their existence contradicts that supposed rule.

If that is a rule, they are extremely lax about enforcing it. Wave and Nega aside, even as recently as TSR saw new techno savvy characters step into that ring. DoDonPa had tech that put even Tails and Eggman on notice (on top of his masterpiece at the end of the game, he also had access to both time and tras-dimentional travel). He even belittled other characters for their lack of technical acumen and talked shop with Eggman.

[DabigRG]

1 minute ago, Sega DogTagz said:

If that is a rule, they are extremely lax about enforcing it. Wave and Nega aside, even as recently as TSR saw new techno savvy characters step into that ring. DoDonPa had tech that put even Tails and Eggman on notice (on top of his masterpiece at the end of the game, he also had access to both time and tras-dimentional travel). He even belittled other characters for their lack of technical acumen and talked shop with Eggman.

Also Espio and Marine.