Sonic Appears in OK K.O.! (Crossover Episode on August 4th)

[Ryannumber1gamer]

3 minutes ago, Osmium said:

Tails is doing his old LW shtick of flying off the handle when Sonic decides to befriend/trust someone else for five minutes. 

I honestly disagree with this, and I'm someone who absolutely loathes Tails in Lost World to the point that he officially stopped being my favourite Sonic character after that game. Tails does get a bit huffy over nothing in this special, but he never gets whiny or as vindictive as he got in Lost World. In Lost World, he was picking fights with Eggman and getting into blowhard matches over him being so much more brilliant than Eggman to the point it bit him on the ass. More importantly, Lost World treats Tails as being in the right for his actions for the majority of the game.

In this episode, he's portrayed as jealous, but he never really lets that change him. When KO is having trouble doing a spin-dash, Tails doesn't just mock him and use it as a chance to one-up KO in front of Sonic, he takes on a mentor role and tries to teach him how to do it, and he even goes back to pick up KO and help him fly to the bad guy's lair because KO isn't as fast as Sonic and Tails, when he could've easily just let KO try to keep catching up to them because he's jealous.  Tails throughout the episode isn't constantly hung up on the "little buddy" thing and there's several moments he still partakes in jokes, and talking with Sonic. 

Even better, the episode doesn't portray him as in the right either, considering by the end of it, Sonic talks to him and points out that no one will ever replace him as his best friend.  

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

More importantly, Lost World treats Tails as being in the right for his actions for the majority of the game.

It really doesn't.

[Shadowlax]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Knuckles` isolation has never been used to explain his gullibility, ever, at least in game. Maybe in character profiles, but when do those ever translate to the game itself? I'm not saying "this character always sucked", I'm stating something that's been there from the very beginning. People only started to cite his isolation to justify his characterization where "he was good" because everyone has started to convince themselves that he was smarter than he actually was, when he never was that smart to begin with lol. 

Yes Knuckles has been flanderized..but you know what Flanderization means right? 

 

I disagree.

And I would to point out 2 things.

1) You yourself seem tired of having this argument, maybe the reason knuckles not being dumb is a thing that keeps coming up is because a lot of people did not interpret his character this way and when it started being interpreted this way to I them it turned them off. And maybe the notion of this happening and what people actually think of the character should take president over what sega/sonic team want the character to be.  Maybe they intended knuckles to be dumber than a bag of dogshit I don't know. But I feel like personally I and  a lot of others never interpreted that way. And it feels like a lot of modern sonic characterizations seem to be actively fighting common thought in the communities that enjoy this character. Like sonicteam is some nerd butting in needing to tell you beginning with " Well asktually " then procceed to jk rollings story details that didn't need to be elaborated upon. So while I disagree that this was their original intent with the character, I don't think that it matters if it was. I think they should be willing to adapt it to the desires/needs of the audience need be and I think the audience has spoken time and again. Now this isn't an absolute and generally an idea I would say not to do, I like a character who if they listened to that subsection of the fanbase he would be a completely unfeeling asshole who murders everything. However I feel like this is a rare scenario where the character involved isn't super villain and there's no loss by giving him a more charitable reading to his character. Not only would argue that continue to insist he's dumb is fighting your own base for no reason. But its also less interesting narratively, the most interesting version of knuckles in years was Archie knuckles who wasn't outright stupid he was just head strong kind of an asshole and a bit naive. Upon fight shadow and having his whole perspective of what is warped and understanding he is by no means the toughest guy in the room, it forces knuckles to think and reconsider what he's doing and how he's doing it and if he was purely a meat head we couldn't have had this groth. He would have brushed the whole scenario off.

2)I don't think knuckles being dumb is interesting in sonic. Because to be blunt...everyone is a fucking idiot in sonic. Besides like... tails and like vanilla. All of them are young adults and children who make some brash decisions and things kinda work out. So knuckles being  " dumb" isn't notable and kinda just feels like they are crapping on the character for no reason. Knuckles being ignorant to the ways of the world and stubborn because he lived on an island by himself is a much more charitable read and much more interesting as a characterization. Whether it was explicitly used to explain why he's gullible doesn't matter what matters is that there was enough there to interpret it as such and it seems to be the prefered read of the characters for the fans. And it seems weird to actively fight the fanbase on something so...petty.

A lot of sega's recent elaborations on characterizations and things in the world seem...petty. Like they were tired of what people thought the characters were and are now actively fighting what people thought of them... even the things people like. But that seems like another discussion for another time

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It really doesn't.

Look, I'm not going into another tirade on Lost World for umpteenth time, but Tails gets a majority of the positive moments in the game. That sure as hell reads like the game rewarding him for his attitude.

[Diogenes]

The positive moments Tails gets have basically nothing to do with him acting out. The "payoff" to him acting out is him getting attacked by Crab-Cubot, saved by the guy he's been badmouthing the whole time, and getting called out by Sonic for not thinking straight.

[Tornado]

Knuckles was always an idiot. It was established that the intent was more than just him being gullible and trusting by the second time they did the same plot as Sonic 3 and Knuckles completely fell for it again, which was done within a year of Sonic 3 coming out. And then it happened multiple times after that.

 

 

Now whether him functionally being Patrick Star is an acceptable level of development from that point is another matter; but on the other hand it's also probably been longer where he has been that stupid (or at least been treated as such in-universe) than it has with him just being an idiot who is easy to trick.

[Wraith]

Sonic lays it on a little thick with KO and Tails gets a little self conscious about it. Thats all that happens. I'm surprised I'm seeing people using terms like "flying off the handle" and bitching to describe mild kids cartoon conflict. The worst thing you can say about it is that it moves a little fast for the sake of containing it to 11 minutes 

 

Also lost worlds story is bad @Diogenes

Edit: also Knuckles is dumb as hell @Ryannumber1gamer

[Plasme]

Knuckles being dumb is tied to him being really goofy too. As seen in the below iconic moment:

This is so memorable not just because you finally manage to beat Knuckles, but because of how dumb his idea even was. He's standing on a launch platform, what was he thinking was going to happen?

Knuckles has always been dumb, even on his first appearance. It's one of his endearing traits, because he's dumb in almost naive way.

[thumbs13]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

It really doesn't.

I think the idea was that Tails's "You trusted Eggman over me to fix a machine" thing was justified when it turns out Tails can work with technology as well as the person who actually made it, so Sonic was in the wrong. 

[Kuzu]

@Shadowlax I'm not reading this wall of text. Knuckles is dumb, he's always been dumb. If you don't think he was dumb, that's on you. 

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

I think the idea was that Tails's "You trusted Eggman over me to fix a machine" thing was justified when it turns out Tails can work with technology as well as the person who actually made it, so Sonic was in the wrong. 

Lost World is a game where everybody is at least a little bit wrong. That Tails was right about being able to handle the machine doesn't mean the game supports him acting the way he did.

[StaticMania]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Lost World is a game where everybody is at least a little bit wrong. That Tails was right about being able to handle the machine doesn't mean the game supports him acting the way he did.

 

The lucky thing here is...that only 2 things negatively affect Tails "after" he starts complaining about Eggman.

The Cubot scene and the scene where he gets captured. One related to him being wrong, and the other to him being right.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I haven't seen many mention it, but this was one of my favourite references in the episode - 

 

[Zaysho]

4 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I haven't seen many mention it, but this was one of my favourite references in the episode - 

[snip]

Is that what it's supposed to be? I thought it was the trap Robotnik made in Archie #25, the CD issue. Though it is basically the same gag. And now that I'm actually looking at the issue and this clip, the design is meant to be based off of the Adventures version haha

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 minute ago, Zaysho said:

Is that what it's supposed to be? I thought it was the trap Robotnik made in Archie #25, the CD issue. Though it is basically the same gag. And now that I'm actually looking at the issue and this clip, the design is meant to be based off of the Adventures version haha

It could possibly be either, but given the abundance of AoStH references, I'd definitely think it is. It even ends with Boxman getting crushed like Robotnik does before saying his "I Hate that Hedgehog" line. 

[Zaysho]

23 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

It could possibly be either, but given the abundance of AoStH references, I'd definitely think it is. It even ends with Boxman getting crushed like Robotnik does before saying his "I Hate that Hedgehog" line. 

Yeah, #25 does the same thing, and I usually remember Archie before I remember the cartoons.

Same gag, different look, but I do see it's more obviously based on the Adventures version's visuals.

[The Deleter]

I'm sorry, I know it's been several pages, and it's an age old argument since the game came out, but

How is a story with sudden confused, bitter arguing over a lack of communication between the two main characters, plot points that prove no one to be right, drama that could have been removed from the story entirely and the end result would have been the same, all capped off with a "it's cool bro" hand-wave apology at the end... somehow have a story worth telling, or even a "healthy relationship" between Sonic and Tails...

But a cartoon where an Ego boosted Sonic takes a kid under his wing, a slightly insecure Tails gets begrudgingly jealous and misinterprets the situation, but they both support each other until Tails' insecurity is ultimately invalidated with an earnest and reaffirming heart-to-heart from Sonic... is somehow worthless to the plot, and an unhealthy relationship???

Honestly I was pretty surprised at how this episode turned out; based off of what I've seen of OK KO, flanderization for the sake of character conflict kinda seemed to be it's shtick episode-to-episode, and with the clip we got I expected them to go all in on the jealousy/ego angle. I was expecting some good references, jokes, and animation here and there, but I wasn't expecting to actually enjoy the characterization as much as I did. The way Sonic is still a good-natured guy with an attitude, but with a side of ego that can misguide his judgement from time-to-time, and Tails behaving more of a sidekick than he's usually portrayed in the main series after Adventure, but his resulting insecurities and friendship with Sonic making him feel more independent and fleshed out simultaneously, and the way the two bounce off each other as a result... I dunno, I just really like it is all. The way KO switched gears to fanboy over Tails at the end, leading to Sonic impatiently yawning when KO uses his "Way past cool" catchphrase to describe Tails... it might be seen as mean-spirited, but that's a pretty neat layer to something that's always been a part of Sonic's character, but never acknowledged in-universe for what it is. Would be kinda cool if it could be explored in other situations entirely, honestly.

Oh and the Knuckles cameo joke ended me, not gonna lie. If it had just been another "Knuckles got tricked, huh? You don't say..." joke I probably wouldn't have laughed, but the one-two punch of revealing how he got tricked, and their subsequent reactions, it's like they treated it as a subversion of a long-running gag for a series the episode was never a part of, and that's hilarious imo

[Dr. Detective]

That sick remix of the AoSth music during that awesomely choreographed fight was amazing. I want a soundtrack version of it.

Honestly, all the AoSth was my favorite. Probably because it hit the most nostalgia points for me. The music hitting when Tails makes the best face ever and presses the screen to recreate the AoSth ending was incredible.

It's nice getting things that make you feel good to be a Sonic fan. 

[StaticMania]

35 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

How is a story with sudden confused, bitter arguing over a lack of communication between the two main characters, plot points that prove no one to be right, drama that could have been removed from the story entirely and the end result would have been the same, all capped off with a "it's cool bro" hand-wave apology at the end... somehow have a story worth telling, or even a "healthy relationship" between Sonic and Tails...

But a cartoon where an Ego boosted Sonic takes a kid under his wing, a slightly insecure Tails gets begrudgingly jealous and misinterprets the situation, but they both support each other until Tails' insecurity is ultimately invalidated with an earnest and reaffirming heart-to-heart from Sonic... is somehow worthless to the plot, and an unhealthy relationship???

I don't think there's a satisfying answer to this question.

But I want to provide an answer for you.

So, I'll say that it boils down to not understanding why Tails is crossed in either scenario.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

I'm sorry, I know it's been several pages, and it's an age old argument since the game came out, but

How is a story with sudden confused, bitter arguing over a lack of communication between the two main characters, plot points that prove no one to be right, drama that could have been removed from the story entirely and the end result would have been the same, all capped off with a "it's cool bro" hand-wave apology at the end... somehow have a story worth telling, or even a "healthy relationship" between Sonic and Tails...

But a cartoon where an Ego boosted Sonic takes a kid under his wing, a slightly insecure Tails gets begrudgingly jealous and misinterprets the situation, but they both support each other until Tails' insecurity is ultimately invalidated with an earnest and reaffirming heart-to-heart from Sonic... is somehow worthless to the plot, and an unhealthy relationship???

Responding to Lost World discourse is my curse.

First off, there's a pretty big difference between having Sonic trust Eggman, the villain, who is largely responsible for the situation they are in, to fix a dangerous tech-related problem over Tails, his best friend and sidekick, whose skills are considered to be roughly on par with Eggman's...and Sonic being friendly to a kid they ran into in a store. Both show a level of insecurity on Tails' part, but one involves an implicit challenge to Tails' identity as someone that Sonic can rely on to handle dangerous tasks involving machines and technology, and the other is literally no threat to him unless he can't stand Sonic showing positive attention to anyone besides himself.

Second, Lost World is, again, a story where everybody's at least a little bit wrong. You could call it "drama", you could say the end result would be the same without it, but that'd be missing the point. Lost World isn't actually about the Zeti or Eggman or the energy sucking machine, it's about exploring Sonic and Tails as characters. It's about putting them in tough situations, testing their character, seeing what happens when things break down, and then building them back up. Cutting all that cuts out the actual core of the story, and leaves you with just the action story, which would only be worse; it's a simplistic conflict with simplistic new characters because it's only meant to support the character exploration. Was that character exploration expertly done? Obviously not. There's plenty of rough edges to the game's story, I'm more than willing to agree. But it shouldn't be dismissed entirely because of that, or because it decided to focus on the series' main characters instead of some big epic heroes vs villains conflict like most games in the series. On the other side, the crossover episode is...fluff. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and for an ~11 minute crossover episode of a pretty silly cartoon "fluff" is about the right thing to shoot for. But that makes Tails' attitude stick out because it never develops beyond the surface level, and the surface level is pretty petty. It actually could be cut without losing anything because all it does is portray Tails as emotionally needy.

[StaticMania]

21 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

...all it does is portray Tails as emotionally needy.

Which is pretty fitting for a pre-development Tails, to be honest.

Note: Tails' first negative response was when Sonic said there's not enough people with fanboy type knowledge of him.

[Kuzu]

27 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Responding to Lost World discourse is my curse.

First off, there's a pretty big difference between having Sonic trust Eggman, the villain, who is largely responsible for the situation they are in, to fix a dangerous tech-related problem over Tails, his best friend and sidekick, whose skills are considered to be roughly on par with Eggman's...and Sonic being friendly to a kid they ran into in a store. Both show a level of insecurity on Tails' part, but one involves an implicit challenge to Tails' identity as someone that Sonic can rely on to handle dangerous tasks involving machines and technology, and the other is literally no threat to him unless he can't stand Sonic showing positive attention to anyone besides himself.

Second, Lost World is, again, a story where everybody's at least a little bit wrong. You could call it "drama", you could say the end result would be the same without it, but that'd be missing the point. Lost World isn't actually about the Zeti or Eggman or the energy sucking machine, it's about exploring Sonic and Tails as characters. It's about putting them in tough situations, testing their character, seeing what happens when things break down, and then building them back up. Cutting all that cuts out the actual core of the story, and leaves you with just the action story, which would only be worse; it's a simplistic conflict with simplistic new characters because it's only meant to support the character exploration. Was that character exploration expertly done? Obviously not. There's plenty of rough edges to the game's story, I'm more than willing to agree. But it shouldn't be dismissed entirely because of that, or because it decided to focus on the series' main characters instead of some big epic heroes vs villains conflict like most games in the series. On the other side, the crossover episode is...fluff. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and for an ~11 minute crossover episode of a pretty silly cartoon "fluff" is about the right thing to shoot for. But that makes Tails' attitude stick out because it never develops beyond the surface level, and the surface level is pretty petty. It actually could be cut without losing anything because all it does is portray Tails as emotionally needy.

Yea and guess what, that's the point of the ending. Sonic reassures Tails that his worries were unfounded and over nothing, and reassures that nobody could ever replace him. You could say "well why even bother?" but then that's missing the point of the entire episode. Like you said, its fluff with a simple problem with a simple conclusion and that's about it. The difference between it and Lost World is that this episode actually flows much better, which makes it much more enjoyable to watch. 

[Sean]

I loved every single moment of that episode. Was not at all expecting them to touch on Tails's backstory either, and the broship between him and Sonic was just great.

Pleeeeeaaaaase let these guys work on the next Sonic cartoon 

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Yea and guess what, that's the point of the ending. Sonic reassures Tails that his worries were unfounded and over nothing, and reassures that nobody could ever replace him. You could say "well why even bother?" but then that's missing the point of the entire episode. Like you said, its fluff with a simple problem with a simple conclusion and that's about it. The difference between it and Lost World is that this episode actually flows much better, which makes it much more enjoyable to watch. 

I don't consider Tails getting weirdly jealous and Sonic placating him with "no really you're my most specialest friend!" to be a satisfying story. But you can't argue someone into or out of liking something so...I don't know where to go with this anymore.

[Wraith]

They should just keep the tails is weirdly jealous part and ship it. That would make a good sonic game story imo