Female representation in Sonic

[DabigRG]

14 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

It conflicts with her backstory and she feels more like Silver's Girlfriend nowadays than her own character

Not really?

Blaze is from the Sol Dimension, while Silver( and Dr. Nega) are from 200(or was it 2000?) years in the future of Sonic's World.

As for the girlfriend, ymmv I guess, but I do know TSR has them greet each other as pleasant acquaintances.

3 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

It doesn't conflict with her backstory really. They met offscreen, and they think they knew each other from somewhere else, if Colors DS is to be believed. 

I think that was meant to be more a nod to the events 06, which were obviously wiped from the timeline.

[ChaosKaiser]

I think so far, the female characters in this franchise are quite different from one each other, so the feeling of having one character that is "the girl" seems unlikely. As many of you have pointed out, they all have different motivations, procedence, vastly different designs and their own spotlights.

Still, nowadays, seems like aside Amy, they are not as relevant as they use to -not because of them being female- but because secondary characters seem to be losing importance in the series as it goes. Sad thing, considering how cool these ladies are. Moreover, the only girl that seems to have had character development so far is Amy, changing from the obsessive self-proclaimed girlfriend of Sonic, to a more mature and (at least to me) likeable character, although some of you point out how she has become more dull due to this change. 

I see a lot of possibly great stories if given time to this heroines, specially in the likes of characters as Blaze and Rouge. C'mon, we have a flamethrowing princess from an alternate dimension and a secret agent that steals jewels in her free time and you do almost nothing with them script-wise? You don't show the burden Blaze has to go through because of her fire powers, and the responsability of being a ruler? Or why Rouge is working with G.U.N. if she's a thief? And that's talking about just two characters! Feels like huge wasted potential to me...

[DabigRG]

27 minutes ago, ChaosKaiser said:

I think so far, the female characters in this franchise are quite different from one each other, so the feeling of having one character that is "the girl" seems unlikely. As many of you have pointed out, they all have different motivations, procedence, vastly different designs and their own spotlights.

Still, nowadays, seems like aside Amy, they are not as relevant as they use to -not because of them being female- but because secondary characters seem to be losing importance in the series as it goes. Sad thing, considering how cool these ladies are. Moreover, the only girl that seems to have had character development so far is Amy, changing from the obsessive self-proclaimed girlfriend of Sonic, to a more mature and (at least to me) likeable character, although some of you point out how she has become more dull due to this change. 

I see a lot of possibly great stories if given time to this heroines, specially in the likes of characters as Blaze and Rouge. C'mon, we have a flamethrowing princess from an alternate dimension and a secret agent that steals jewels in her free time and you do almost nothing with them script-wise? You don't show the burden Blaze has to go through because of her fire powers, and the responsability of being a ruler? Or why Rouge is working with G.U.N. if she's a thief? And that's talking about just two characters! Feels like huge wasted potential to me...

Rouge worked for GUN because they offered to give her jewels in exchange for her services regarding Project Shadow and I guess either they kept her on speed dial or she just stuck around.

[ChaosKaiser]

 

4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Rouge worked for GUN because they offered to give her jewels in exchange for her services regarding Project Shadow and I guess either they kept her on speed dial or she just stuck around.

Yeah, I mean, I assumed they made a deal of some kind, but wouldn't it be cool if we got to see that exchange between Rouge and the Commander or something like that? Some things might be implied, but that doesn't mean they are less interesting to see and know more about, don't you think?

[DabigRG]

2 minutes ago, ChaosKaiser said:

 

Yeah, I mean, I assumed they made a deal of some kind, but wouldn't it be cool if we got to see that exchange between Rouge and the Commander or something like that? Some things might be implied, but that doesn't mean they are less interesting to see and know more about, don't you think?

Eh, maybe. I can see that.

Funnily enough, Sonic X actually did do something along those lines.

[Shadowlax]

 

5 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Is that a way of saying they tend to be overpowered/hyper competent? :smirk:

Not its much sadder than that, they are allowed to be competent and have some power at all. There's no scale in sonic . I would like more people to be varying types of capable and sometimes more capable than sonic in ways he just can't do. For example in sonic adventure 2 they get knuckles to help find the key because he's a treasure hunter and he's better at this sort of thing. They got the guy who's good at the thing to do the thing. Or tails when he's allowed to invent things. I want different types of competence and I want different types of power as well.

Like for example it would be cool if amy was actually really strong. Or used that terrot card ,maybe amy and sonic are trapped and amy's like " Oh I got it " and just breaks though some some super sturdy stuff. Or uses her carts to predict the future to save some lives. She isn't stopping times or spitting that hot fire, but its still cool and capable.

Yes shadow and blaze are tough customers. Did you read the end of last years arc? That whole thing was " Oh hey blaze and shadow are really fucking strong guys " . That doesn't mean everyone else has to me nothing, which is my problem.  And sometimes that competence could allow them to defeat tough customers. I have a whole story in my head where espio beats shadow because he's like super calm and does like ninjustsu shit and shadow isn't calm enough to deduce what's happening. You could do like cool shit like that. But wen the last time espio did anything, ya know?

 

Quote

Mm...how so, pray tell? 

Not him, but I feel like she was kinda made a friend character to him because they intended to push him so they did what they did with shadow which was attach a girl to him. But unlike shadow silver wasn't liked...for years and she was just attached to him. And now its worse because there are people who grew up with that who like that dynamic now,  and the people who just want blaze to be sonic rushed are assed out because sega has no reason to not pair them up. And even then when they do , silver gets all the booking. Not blaze the better character, silver comes first. Shit sicks.

[Sonic Fan J]

Okay, I read the whole topic and I honestly just can't wrap my head around anything. I think it's my upbringing hampering me as well as my life philosophies so I'lll start with a question.

Could someone please define representation in the context of this thread?
I ask because representation can mean a lot of different things, and as someone who was raised in way where being 'represented' holds no personal value the topic confuses me to no end. I don't understand the empowerment one feels when they are represented. I don't understand the sense of validation when one group or another indirectly recognizes your existence. I don't get seeing myself in a fictional character. These are things that I just don't understand in any regard of emotional context It's why I ask
What does representation mean for this thread.
Are you just looking for equal numbers?
Are you looking to have distinct problems unique entirely to female characters to have an affect on the narrative?
Are you looking to see the female characters standing shoulder to shoulder with the male characters as equals?
Are you looking at presentation of the female characters and whether or not it avoids subjectively 'bad' stereotypes?
Is it some combination of the above in addition to/or some other factors I haven't considered?

Now with all of that out of the way and my ignorance and naivete (perhaps some insensitivity as well) laid bare, I can talk a little about my thoughts on representation of the female characters. Above all else, if there is one thing I have always thoroughly enjoyed about the Sonic series and its representation of female characters, is how it never explicitly brings attention to characters being female and talking down about them for it. It respects them and treats them as individuals first and foremost, highlighting the individual and who they are and what they want to do. The female characters share this privilege with the male characters who are never glorified for being male, but just treated as the distinctive individuals that they are. Almost all of the imbalance happens at a meta or completely external level, but not actually in universe. In universe everyone is treated with the respect and dignity that an individual deserves to be treated with, with only their own actions affecting the viewpoints that others have of them. This is one of the reasons it drives me so far up the wall whenever people say that Amy needs to change into anything other than what she is. If she's too girly she is an insult to women who find girliness demeaning, existing in their own little vacuums where those who like to be girly don't exist. If she's too much of a tomboy she's just a boy in a dress. If she displays her crush for Sonic in any way but secretive embarrassment she's a psychopathic stalker. If you dial it all back or make her a "good" female role model she's also suddenly too bland to be interesting. Funny that and makes me want to ask what exactly is wrong with Amy being a Girly-tomboy with a thing for Sonic, that motivates her to good no less? In universe, as far as I've ever seen absolutely nothing. She is never demeaned (except maybe in BOOM! whenever she draws attention to it first in a complaint driven manner) for being a girl who is both girly and tomboyish. Even her love of Sonic is looked upon as a bad thing, only her more extreme actions in pursuit of it rightfully gets her called out in universe. but out of universe all of these things are bad and she must be insulted for being a girl and pursuing the things she wants to pursue because its either too girly, too boyish, sets a bad role model for real life little girls, or some other thing that makes people say she has to change to be a "good" female character without any explanation of what that is. Yet to me, Amy has always been a great female, no less character in general because she has always demonstrated that no matter who you are, as long as you don't hurt people, be happy in who you are and actively pursue that. How the heck is that a bad character or female representation. It's a powerful message I think all human beings need to be taught.

Putting my rant aside now, though I feel much stronger about Amy (she is one of my favorites after all in addition to being one of the most talked about characters) I still feel that the in universe lack of discrimination presents a world hat we should really still be striving for ourselves. And I feel that is extended to all of the female and male characters. Sure, maybe the developers are doing certain things due to their cultural upbringings, but that isn't reflected in universe. Not unless your own upbringing made you sensitive to seeing those things making you feel the need to react to it, even though all of that discrimination isn't present or acted upon by the characters in universe (again normally because some of what I saw of BOOM! definitely fed that discrimination into the characters and their universe). So, while I've probably gotten this all wrong due to my misinterpretation of a subject matter I honestly can't wrap my head around, in my own bizarre twisted view of the world I feel the respect to be an individual that is afforded to every character is superb. But as I said, I'm ignorant and naïve so if I got it all wrong feel free to tear into me as I might actually learn something.

[StaticMania]

28 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Are you looking to see the female characters standing shoulder to shoulder with the male characters as equals?
Are you looking at presentation of the female characters and whether or not it avoids subjectively 'bad' stereotypes?

For most people on the "Rep Train" it's these 2 things.

It's cool.

[DabigRG]

You know, I had this thread "saved" in my backbutton for a while now and judging by the last date, I clearly intended to say something else but just forgot entirely.

On 8/11/2019 at 9:08 PM, Shadowlax said:

 

Not its much sadder than that, they are allowed to be competent and have some power at all. There's no scale in sonic . I would like more people to be varying types of capable and sometimes more capable than sonic in ways he just can't do. For example in sonic adventure 2 they get knuckles to help find the key because he's a treasure hunter and he's better at this sort of thing. They got the guy who's good at the thing to do the thing. Or tails when he's allowed to invent things. I want different types of competence and I want different types of power as well.

Like for example it would be cool if amy was actually really strong. Or used that terrot card ,maybe amy and sonic are trapped and amy's like " Oh I got it " and just breaks though some some super sturdy stuff. Or uses her carts to predict the future to save some lives. She isn't stopping times or spitting that hot fire, but its still cool and capable.

Yes shadow and blaze are tough customers. Did you read the end of last years arc? That whole thing was " Oh hey blaze and shadow are really fucking strong guys " . That doesn't mean everyone else has to me nothing, which is my problem.  And sometimes that competence could allow them to defeat tough customers. I have a whole story in my head where espio beats shadow because he's like super calm and does like ninjustsu shit and shadow isn't calm enough to deduce what's happening. You could do like cool shit like that. But wen the last time espio did anything, ya know?

 

So, what you were really getting at is how they're almost Wolverine?

On 8/11/2019 at 9:08 PM, Shadowlax said:

Not him, but I feel like she was kinda made a friend character to him because they intended to push him so they did what they did with shadow which was attach a girl to him. But unlike shadow silver wasn't liked...for years and she was just attached to him. And now its worse because there are people who grew up with that who like that dynamic now,  and the people who just want blaze to be sonic rushed are assed out because sega has no reason to not pair them up. And even then when they do , silver gets all the booking. Not blaze the better character, silver comes first. Shit sicks.

Hm. Honestly, I don't know why they bothered using Blaze in 06 to begin with.

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

 

So, what you were really getting at is how they're almost Wolverine?

 

huh?

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Hm. Honestly, I don't know why they bothered using Blaze in 06 to begin with.

There are people who will argue there was some grand narrative plan. And yes there's some connective tissue but that could have just been added after the fact. I genuinely think they wanted to push silver didn't have any established characters but didn't want to commit to the idea of a " legeon of super heroes " type of sonic group from the future. So they got one that people liked to put him beside and that was it. And they just wrote in what they needed to , to justify it.

And silver untill like... this year when he finally got like... a personality has essentially been coasting off two characters popularity since then.

[Dr. Mechano]

So let's talk about some of the more antagonistic female Sonic characters:

Witchcart: The Sonic game series' first female villain, a kooky old lady who - according to the manual - claims she can turn all who oppose her into crystal. Hilariously, she never actually does this in-game, and a part of me wonders if she's actually a witch at all or just a totally normal old woman who rides around in a mine cart. She got adapted into the Archie character Wendy Naugus, and was pretty funny there too. 

Lah the Ghost: Definitely wouldn't call her a villain, but still kind of a troublemaker, as she sends her henchmen to chase after Sonic and capture him - on film, that is. Similar to Amy, she seems to have a bit of an infatuation, but it's less committed and less serious, since she's satisfied with just a photo. I really like Lah, honestly; For such a minor character, she provides a really fun, lighthearted sort of low-stakes obstacle for Sonic that we normally don't usually get to see. Would love to see her again.

Heavy Magician and Heavy Rider: I love all the Hard-Boiled Heavies, so of course these two get a mention - especially Heavy Magician, since she's my favorite of the lot. Anyway, I like that Magician and Rider are just kinda incidentally female. Unlike, say, Zeena, they aren't treated differently and not much of a big deal is made of them being girls. 

[Sega DogTagz]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Lah the Ghost:

I'd be all for that. Lah would be a perfect mid level antagonist. I could easily see her antics tangling up Sonic and slowing him down. Her short sighted goals of latching onto him keeping him from moving onto things he needs to be doing. Not every villain needs to be life threatening. She'd fit that bill nicely.

Plus she seems to have some extra powers on hand, like shapeshifting and she is a ghost, so there is a lot to play with there.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I'd be all for that. Lah would be a perfect mid level antagonist. I could easily see her antics tangling up Sonic and slowing him down. Her short sighted goals of latching onto him keeping him from moving onto things he needs to be doing. Not every villain needs to be life threatening. She'd fit that bill nicely.

Plus she seems to have some extra powers on hand, like shapeshifting and she is a ghost, so there is a lot to play with there.

Yeah, Lah strikes me as really versatile. I could see her being a good-natured antagonist or an ally depending on the situation.