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Owen Deane

My hope for Cream's future

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22 minutes ago, Badnik Zero said:

 

I might have been confusing. I don’t want her to have a blaster. Cream with a blaster (or any robotic weapons) is ridiculous to me, like the Avatar was ridiculous.

I was refering to the OP.

And at the very least, the Avatar and the other resistance members were using Wispons because they can't quite do the things Knuckles, Amy, or even Charmy canl.

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This type of threads again? Even if the character got almost removed from the series lately? mmhh... (It's since the Sega Forums that occasionally one of these discussions randomly spawns from time to time)

23 hours ago, Owen Deane said:

1. She doesn't physically fight, like, at all. Before you bring up Cheese, he's just a companion who does the fighting for the bunny. On top of this, I read on Sonic Retro.com that Sega said Cream doesn't fight because it would ruin her reputation as a little girl. 😴

There's a detailed explanation of why she doesn't fight in Sonic Battle, and it's not that. She has some morals about pacifism and non-violence and stuff... She's not the type of character who cares about reputation as far as I know. (Sega said a lot of questionable/stupid stuff including that running on ceilings was introduced by Sonic 4).

Anyway, she occasionally fights when she has to, and usually she fights along with Cheese, physically as well. She can roll into enemies and in the Advance games she can also attack by stomping/bouncing on top of the enemies uncurled.

23 hours ago, Owen Deane said:

2. Cries as often as an infant. "But she's just six!" I hear you shout. Well, fair enough I suppose, but look at Charmey and Marine; the former is also six, and while pretty whiny (e.g. "Let me try!" "Let me go, I wanna play!"), he's part of a gosh darn detective agency, and, being a bee, has a physical stinging attack. 
As for the latter, she's only one year older than Cream, hasn't shed a single tear (from what I've seen anyway), and is more in depth then the rabbit, what with having an ambition of becoming a pirate and much more out-going by comparison.😴

That's kinda true, but that's also part of the character. She's serious and determined when she has to act, but when things get worse than expected and she loses hopes, she may cry... ok, that's her weakness... she's overly emotive and occasionally needs someone else to motivate her when she gets depressed due to a bad situation. According to the games, this happend only a couple of times (extra boss of Advance 2 and probably a scene in Rush, but I can't remember).

23 hours ago, Owen Deane said:

3. Gets kidnapped quite a lot, including her debut (Advance 2), and the first two Sonic X episodes. First impression is key, and I don't think this would intrigue much consumers; they'd probably just be like "😴 another damsel in distress, how original(!)"

I don't think Sonic X counts at all, since the event in the anime is likely just the transposition of the same event in Advance 2.

Anyway Tails got kidnapped as well in the same game, and if we count other games as well, Sonic himself got "kidnapped" twice, put in jail in Adventure 2 and captured by Eggman in Forces... other characters have been captured as well occasionally, Tails probably being the one with the biggest record if we also count Sonic Lost World.

On 8/9/2019 at 10:57 AM, Owen Deane said:

4. Speaks in a somewhat "Goo Ga Chu" way, addressing everyone as "Mr." or "Miss", and even addressingher mother Vanilla as "Mama", such as in X and Free Riders. Again, you can type "she's only six" until your fingers hurt, but Charmey, also being 6, doesn't have that voice, and doesn't refer to his comrades as "Mr." or "Miss", making him fit in more as a Sonic character.

That can be a bit annoying, I agree, but you can't change that unless you change her background. It's the way how her mother educated her... she's more childish than your average Sonic-character-child because she lives with her mother all the time, and her mother grew her up like that. It's also the reason of point 5, and usually, in the games where she plays a role, her innocence and inexperience is put in contrast with complex situations and the character is forced to open her eyes and grow up a little bit.

Sonic Battle is the best example,: in that game initially she doesn't want to fight, but later she is put in a situation where she is forced to, and has to grow mentally to understand that in some situations fighting is better than letting the thing get worse and letting your friends get hurt.

On 8/9/2019 at 10:57 AM, Owen Deane said:

5. Is far too innocent, cutesy and happy-go-lucky for her own good, that she'd boardaline feel right at home in a pre-school show like Teletubies, Dora, Barney, Care Bears, or something along those lines, adding to my "Goo Ga Chu" point I made earlier.

She fits the Sonic series perfectly, way more than most of the overly edgy Dragonball inspired characters of the post-Adventure games. Sonic and Tails have been in shows for kids before, and they even have their edusoft stuff such as Sonic Schoolhouse and a game with Tails about learning music. Most of the characters in the series are cute talking animals, what do you expect... especially in the classic side of the franchise.

In conclusion, I think that transforming her in a whole different character (a robot or something else) is like scrapping her completely and replacing her with a different character, and that's not a good thing. She's fine as she is, all they have to do is to involve her more, avoid the politeness/cutesy cliche as much as possible and explore the more serious traits of her character instead, the potential is there.

17 hours ago, Badnik Zero said:

She could have played this role really well in Forces, which needed a character who shows the oppression a normal person faces under a world that belongs to Eggman.

I agree with your post and I also thnk the same about her potential in Sonic Forces. I had this idea of a story arc about her village being under Eggman's attack, where initially she's held back by her mother who wants to protect her, but as the resistance fails and most of the village gets destroyed, seeing all the people suffer, she decides to act against her mother's will and to fight Eggman's badniks alone (with Cheese) to defend the civilians, gaining the trust of them and Vanilla, who comes to the conclusion that while she wanted to protect Cream, at the end Cream protected her instead, and maybe it was wrong to be so protective with her limiting her freedom so much.

In my opinion this would have been way more interesting than the whole Classic Sonic and Tails story arc in the game, and in a way it would have been reminiscent of Tails saving Station Square in Sonic Adventure.

Lastly,  I have an observation to make: I'm under the impression that Sega slowly started to change Cream's personality and representation a bit... first, she talking to Dead Adder saying that she doesn't fear him in that mobile game, then all the talking about her potential in the IDW comic, and for the first time in the Sonic Channel artworks, she's finally put in a pose that's somewhat kinda cool and not the usual cutesy pose she has got in all the previous years. They probably realized that Sonic X/Heroes Cream was not the best iteration of her and went back to how the character was in the Advance games, more competent, determined and brave... I hope this means they have plans to use her in more games, I'd prefer if she doesn't get replaced by Omochao and 3 chao in a car anymore.

(unrelated, but... why the heck they never got her ears right in any 3D model of her? They look good in the 2D artworks but in 3D they are always awkward and look too flat).

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Those taller characters are the Sonic the Hedgehog Band members. Max (monkey), Mach (rabbit) and Sharps (parakeet/parrot). Vector is in another one.

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2 hours ago, Pengi said:

Those taller characters are the Sonic the Hedgehog Band members. Max (monkey), Mach (rabbit) and Sharps (parakeet/parrot). Vector is in another one.

I know. 

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My hope for cream's future, and you know pretty much anyone's future who isn't sonic

is for them to actually be a playable character in the games. boostboostboost random switching from 2d to 3d instead of being consistent is honestly... very boring.

but what do i know right

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9 hours ago, Iko said:

This type of threads again? Even if the character got almost removed from the series lately? mmhh... (It's since the Sega Forums that occasionally one of these discussions randomly spawns from time to time)

There's a detailed explanation of why she doesn't fight in Sonic Battle, and it's not that. She has some morals about pacifism and non-violence and stuff... She's not the type of character who cares about reputation as far as I know. (Sega said a lot of questionable/stupid stuff including that running on ceilings was introduced by Sonic 4).

Anyway, she occasionally fights when she has to, and usually she fights along with Cheese, physically as well. She can roll into enemies and in the Advance games she can also attack by stomping/bouncing on top of the enemies uncurled.

That's kinda true, but that's also part of the character. She's serious and determined when she has to act, but when things get worse than expected and she loses hopes, she may cry... ok, that's her weakness... she's overly emotive and occasionally needs someone else to motivate her when she gets depressed due to a bad situation. According to the games, this happend only a couple of times (extra boss of Advance 2 and probably a scene in Rush, but I can't remember).

I don't think Sonic X counts at all, since the event in the anime is likely just the transposition of the same event in Advance 2.

Anyway Tails got kidnapped as well in the same game, and if we count other games as well, Sonic himself got "kidnapped" twice, put in jail in Adventure 2 and captured by Eggman in Forces... other characters have been captured as well occasionally, Tails probably being the one with the biggest record if we also count Sonic Lost World.

That can be a bit annoying, I agree, but you can't change that unless you change her background. It's the way how her mother educated her... she's more childish than your average Sonic-character-child because she lives with her mother all the time, and her mother grew her up like that. It's also the reason of point 5, and usually, in the games where she plays a role, her innocence and inexperience is put in contrast with complex situations and the character is forced to open her eyes and grow up a little bit.

Sonic Battle is the best example,: in that game initially she doesn't want to fight, but later she is put in a situation where she is forced to, and has to grow mentally to understand that in some situations fighting is better than letting the thing get worse and letting your friends get hurt.

She fits the Sonic series perfectly, way more than most of the overly edgy Dragonball inspired characters of the post-Adventure games. Sonic and Tails have been in shows for kids before, and they even have their edusoft stuff such as Sonic Schoolhouse and a game with Tails about learning music. Most of the characters in the series are cute talking animals, what do you expect... especially in the classic side of the franchise.

 

Yes, Sonic has had educational stuff here and there, but that's not what he stands for overall. For that reason, I find it absurd that he has educational games in the first place. Also, the bit about you saying most of the characters are cute talking animals and asking what I expect is pretty shallow; Happy Tree Friends has cute talking animals, but tonally, it's dramatically different from Sonic. It's like you're saying they can't have depth because of their appearances. And you saying Cream fits perfectly into the series than "overly edgy" characters is just your opinion (which I respect) and shows your ignorance; Sonic was designed to be the Anti-Mario, and as such, was meant to be edgy and cool.

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33 minutes ago, Owen Deane said:

Yes, Sonic has had educational stuff here and there, but that's not what he stands for overall. For that reason, I find it absurd that he has educational games in the first place. Also, the bit about you saying most of the characters are cute talking animals and asking what I expect is pretty shallow; Happy Tree Friends has cute talking animals, but tonally, it's dramatically different from Sonic. It's like you're saying they can't have depth because of their appearances. And you saying Cream fits perfectly into the series than "overly edgy" characters is just your opinion (which I respect) and shows your ignorance; Sonic was designed to be the Anti-Mario, and as such, was meant to be edgy and cool.

 

I'm personally open minded to a number of things, but it's not hard to see how Cream can be thrown into more things than Shadow at times, for example.

 

12 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic was meant to be cool over cutesy, but that doesn't mean that literally every character has to be the same type of hot blooded teenager. 

And that's called speciation. 

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29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Sonic isn't actually the anti-Mario, though. The two have more in common than not.

Clearly, you haven't heard of the "Sega does what Nintendon't!" slogan.

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3 minutes ago, Owen Deane said:

Clearly, you haven't heard of the "Sega does what Nintendon't!" slogan.

What does this even have to do with anything? The marketing associated with this slogan was only relevant in North America for a couple years and has fuck all to do with modern Sonic. 

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She actually fit the Sonic franchise pretty well, and give something that the other character don't entirely give : true pacifism. I agree that she is a non-fighter (that's her whole story), but that's what make her a good fit for this franchise. Trying to have only "fighter" character is a bad idea, same for thinking that they should only be "NPC".

I'll go about each point quite fast, because I'm still not sure about if it's just a troll or a real start of a discussion :

1) It's a good thing that she don't fight.

2) How is that a young character cry a bad thing ? It's a part of what make her good for this universe, by being more of a "normal person for her age". I would even say that they are a lot of character that I would prefer if they cried more when they are on the break point, or acted more emotionally.

3) Kids are an easier target, especially in the Sonic world when you have too much nuclear-powered characters. More seriously, she doesn't have that reputation that much. Many people see her like a kid, or like "Amy's sidekick", but not that much as the "damsel in distress". And you argument could be said for Amy too : she was captured in Sonic CD, her whole story centered about a robot trying (and managing) to kidnap her in Sonic Adventure, she was taken hostage in Sonic Adventure 2.

4) She is just polite. It's not a big tropes or anything, it's basically that she is more polite that the bunch of adolescent that is the Sonic cast xD. You may not like that, but that's not a problem in itself, and you don't have seen a lot of stuff if you are thinking that she have a quirky way of talking. Seriously if you are annoyed by any kid that use the mr thing, wow.

5) Innocence and cuteness are good. And this innocence have been broken at least one. Having innocent characters is a good thing for a story, because you can confront them to different stuff, and engage readership with wanting to protect them. The "break the cutie" trope is centered around that. I could also go on and on about the number of fictionnal characters that are innocent and/or cute, too 🤔

 
TBH, she is more usefull to the universe than all the "fighter-type, capable" character that we have actually have. She is interesting with her pacifism, the idea around her of "being a kid, but being brave" is especially well done in that she have been SHOWN before to be afraid, to cry easily and stuff (because with Charmy... Welp as he is always goofing around, she isn't as much interesting). And without her, we wouldn't have got one big heartbreaking page from IDWSonic.
 
1 hour ago, Owen Deane said:

Clearly, you haven't heard of the "Sega does what Nintendon't!" slogan.

You mean, the slogan they tried to say while making at least three clones of Zelda ? I've heard of it.

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3 hours ago, Owen Deane said:

Clearly, you haven't heard of the "Sega does what Nintendon't!" slogan.

It was actually "Genesis does what Nintendon't," which is good because otherwise Sonic Drift, Drift 2, Blast, R, Shuffle, 4 and all of these pieces of shit would all seem pretty hypocritical.

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17 hours ago, Owen Deane said:

Yes, Sonic has had educational stuff here and there, but that's not what he stands for overall. For that reason, I find it absurd that he has educational games in the first place.

Says the person who wants to put Tails in school.

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Cream is one of the least interesting characters in the series, so I'm not opposed to doing something to radically change her. But to have a former main character, a six year old child at that, changed to permanently being a brain-washed villain? That's just a bit to dark for this series...

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You know, there are different approaches to pacifism, as with other philosophies. But even with that, the whole "Cream doesn't fight" thing is an exaggeration that's not iron clad. Not to mention that it really only came up and was assuaged within the same game--Compressed Virtue? 

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On 8/10/2019 at 6:59 PM, Tornado said:

It was actually "Genesis does what Nintendon't," which is good because otherwise Sonic Drift, Drift 2, Blast, R, Shuffle, 4 and all of these pieces of shit would all seem pretty hypocritical.

But...Sonic has it's 1st main series game and 2 sequels on the same console, isn't that pretty similar?

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8 hours ago, batson said:

Cream is one of the least interesting characters in the series, so I'm not opposed to doing something to radically change her. But to have a former main character, a six year old child at that, changed to permanently being a brain-washed villain? That's just a bit to dark for this series...

It's not even really dark. Even by the standard of the series of gave Shadow guns and made him belt out PG level curse words like a 12 year old, having Cream become a brainwashed edgelord villain is hopelessly trying too hard to take serious for it to actually carry the emotion weight to consider it dark.

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4 hours ago, Tornado said:

It's not even really dark. Even by the standard of the series of gave Shadow guns and made him belt out PG level curse words like a 12 year old, having Cream become a brainwashed edgelord villain is hopelessly trying too hard to take serious for it to actually carry the emotion weight to consider it dark.

I agree that it won't be too much dark, but would it really be worth?

All what it would do is to give us a female version of Infinite, at the expense of a familiar character that we won't see anymore (in her original state). People would probably dislike her like they did with Infinite, and the next game, the character would just disappear forever, in both versions (since the change is permanent). If the plan is to get rid of Cream, that's the perfect strategy.

Transformed into a brainwashed villain for only one game, it would even be fun, but a permanent change IMO would be a very bad idea.

If we really have to make an edgy background for Cream, I'd rather make a story where Vanilla is killed by a bad guy and Cream changes completely due to the trauma... a bit like Maria's death to Shadow, but due to the different personality of the characters, it would affect her differently. Still a bad idea to me, but more suited to the character, and it would allow her to join Sonic in his adventures since she wouldn't have a family anymore.

 

 

My personal hope for her future is that they expand the lore of the Chao and link her and Cheese with the lore of the echidnas.

Cream likes to raise chao as pets, but chao hide an ancient secret of some type, some power or something... one day, Tikal appears to Cream and gives her a mission, something that she can't do personally because she's a ghost and is guarding Chaos and the Master Emerald from inside, so, Cream is the chosen person to perform this thing for her. I don't know, I think Tikal and Cream are similar in a way, and a story where Cream becomes the heiress of Tikal's mystic "something" would be very interesting for character development, especially if it gives her some responsabilities which are initially too big for her to handle.

As for Gemerl, while I like the design of the character and I wouldn't mind to have it involved more, I think it should stay at home to defend Vanilla. It would also be cool if it secretely follows Cream and comes out only when she's in danger to save her, as a sort of white knight, but an excessive use of this plot exploit would become old pretty fast. Maybe make it so that she dislikes being followed by Gemerl because she thinks she's able to make it by herself, make a sort of friendly conflict between the two like this, a conflict that at the end brings them both in trouble and forces them to cooperate.

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19 hours ago, Tornado said:

You didn't seem to get my point enough to agree with it.

Aren't you saying something like "it wouldn't be dark, it would just be stupid", right? If not then my bad.

There's a reason why I dislike sarcasm.

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