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Anyone else bored of Eggman being the villain? Also the series should go back to basics!

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49 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Sonic Adventure 2 isn't about a corrupt military, it's about how one person's revenge put him down a dark path and how he had to redeem himself.  The corrupt military is simply a device for that. 

No it kind of is.

Its about the same way old sonic was about environmentalism and fighting dictators. Yeah its not the main plot, but that's what's it about too. That's definitely the framing of the entire thing. To deny that is to deny the story itself.

Anti establishment rhetoric has quite literally always been apart of sonic and framing its narratives. A lot of sega games in general if you look at broader pictures.

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17 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

No it kind of is.

Its about the same way old sonic was about environmentalism and fighting dictators. Yeah its not the main plot, but that's what's it about too. That's definitely the framing of the entire thing. To deny that is to deny the story itself.

Anti establishment rhetoric has quite literally always been apart of sonic and framing its narratives. A lot of sega games in general if you look at broader pictures.

If it's not the main plot, how can it be about it? You can't even call it a subplot because at no point is it ever a focal point of the story. The focus of the game is how Shadow (and Gerald) were affected by GUN's action, and the actions they took as a result of that. 

The government being corrupt or even trying to cover it up is something that's only ever alluded to; took until Sonic X and Shadow's game for there to be any representative characters from the organization at all. 

If we are talking exclusively about Sonic Adventure 2 though, then no I disagree that they are the focal points of the story because it actively contradicts what the game actually shows you. They're more of a plot device to serve the needs of the story than anything else. 

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39 minutes ago, Wraith said:

what

I was referencing to what @E-122-Psi said about it.

2 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

SA2 does the same with its realistic military conspiracy involving committing genocide and scapegoating an innocent man and successfully covering it up with no implied comeuppance in the end....all immersed in between the usual laid back Sonic fare. They try to merge a gritty sci fi thriller with realistic humans getting killed with the cartoony affairs of Sonic, to the point that the Sonic anthros look like bombastic out of place aliens in their own universe (hell that's practically what Sonic X makes fun of in their adaptation).

 

 

There seems to be this idea here that GUN has more presence and influence on the story of SA2 than there actually was. 

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1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

If it's not the main plot, how can it be about it?

Things can be about more than one thing.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

The government being corrupt or even trying to cover it up is something that's only ever alluded to

Gerald's diary specifically talks about GUN destroying his work and shutting the ARK down under the pretense of there being an accident.

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Just now, Diogenes said:

Things can be about more than one thing.

Gerald's diary specifically talks about GUN destroying his work and shutting the ARK down under the pretense of there being an accident.

Something being mentioned once or twice does not make it the focus of the plot. 

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It's a central point of the whole Shadow/Gerald/Maria revenge thing, the story doesn't happen without it. Plus you've got them chasing down the heroes for most of the game based on "mistaken identity" (they know Sonic's not Shadow. They can't not know).

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3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's a central point of the whole Shadow/Gerald/Maria revenge thing, the story doesn't happen without it. Plus you've got them chasing down the heroes for most of the game based on "mistaken identity" (they know Sonic's not Shadow. They can't not know).

That's why I said it's a plot device, but it's not the emotional core of the story; it's not what the audience is supposed to care about, which is why it only gets a passing mention. The emotional core of SA2's story is Shadow understanding Maria's true wish for humanity and preventing his creator from destroying the world she loved.  That's SA2, GUN's actions are merely in service to that. 

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I'm not saying it's the most important part of the story, but it is, absolutely, a part of the story, and it's not something you can really escape from considering 95% of the enemies in the game are GUN robots and a large part of the story deals with both sides' interactions with GUN.

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I just disagree with the notion that it drastically alters the game's tone when it's not even that big a part of the game. The way it was described gives it much more presence than it actually has. For the most part, the game is still just a typical Sonic affair, and even that bit about GUN is only relevant in the last leg of the game. 

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5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Well given they antagonize the heroes for most of the game, and are indirectly responsible for the plot...

Oh. I guess that means this tangent isn't as irrelevant as it is tedious, uh?

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GUN are kinda like the Coachman in the Pinocchio example mentioned earlier, in that while they're not the most prominent antagonists, they are arguably the most glaringly contrasting ones from how the Sonic universe usually works. Not only are they a realistic human military with very little connections to the cartoon/fantasy backdrop Sonic is known for besides occasional use of mechs, but they are pretty gritty in how they are depicted, a corrupt self serving corporation that will scapegoat and KILL people in masses, even the world's most prominent hero, just to save their image and cover up their own mistakes, and they SUCCEED AND GET AWAY WITH IT.

They are sociopaths in charge of the populace, something which adds a subtle but blatant chilling darkness to Sonic's world, arguably much darker than the ones where Robotnik has taken over since he is still a cartoon villain that can be fought against.

Saying they are minor antagonists only goes so far when they are still a key pivot to the story they are in and add quite a bizarre weight how the Sonic universe works. Sonic's world is controlled by corrupt people who gun down innocent people to cover their crimes, and no one stops them. No wonder later games tried to play them as reformed (if with no explanation why).

I mean THAT PHOTO, that picture of Gerald in chains, a broken empty man because the people in charge of him gunned down everyone he cared about and then framed him for it all just to save their own selfish asses, taken just seconds after they execute him where he sits. That is by far more morbid context than arguably anything any other villain has done in the games series, especially given the realistic portrayal of this sort of crime and the fact it wasn't foiled or reversed. GERALD WAS FRAMED AND SHOT DEAD. THEY WON.

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@E-122-PsiA riddle for the ages that I didn't think about but remember SomecallmeJohnny doing is who exactly gave the order to raid the Space Colony Ark back then? Who had the authority to make that call 50 years ago? What became of that individual and were their crimes ever exposed?

Because while Gerald wasn't completely a saint beforehand, he ultimately did most what he did(including agreeing to fill GUN's commissions whenever they came in) because he wanted to help humanity as well as cure his own granddaughter. A granddaughter whose presence was evidently not at all unique given the presence of Abraham or likely an unknown considering the station suiting her environmental needs would've been a specific arrangement. And while there's only a few tidbits that suggest they weren't openly out for blood so much as sweeping things under the rug as quietly as necessary, that was still a lot of collateral and covering up they sent the soldiers in to do. But it's ultimately something that we don't really have an answer to, nor is it ever really called into question given the time abyss and level of confidentiality to be in the know of.

On another note, its part of why I also really like the blank filling the Archie Encyclopedia did with Commander Tower's backstory, which is also never really elaborated on after the reveal of his motivation. And his existence, while obviously something of a retcon, is a grey area that isn't addressed when you give it more than a second's thought. I don't know if SonicTeam even considered any of that beforehand, but they were at least fine with it since it got approved.

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7 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

@E-122-PsiA riddle for the ages that I didn't think about but remember SomecallmeJohnny doing is who exactly gave the order to raid the Space Colony Ark back then? Who had the authority to make that call 50 years ago? What became of that individual and were their crimes ever exposed?

 

 I mean, their crimes were exposed when they played Gerald's execution tape, and super exposed in Shadow. 

The individual would have to be either the President or the old G.U.N commander, but the new commander is the only character who we know who was alive back then and lived until the present day, so we probably'll never find that out. 

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1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

GUN are kinda like the Coachman in the Pinocchio example mentioned earlier, in that while they're not the most prominent antagonists, they are arguably the most glaringly contrasting ones from how the Sonic universe usually works. Not only are they a realistic human military with very little connections to the cartoon/fantasy backdrop Sonic is known for besides occasional use of mechs, but they are pretty gritty in how they are depicted, a corrupt self serving corporation that will scapegoat and KILL people in masses, even the world's most prominent hero, just to save their image and cover up their own mistakes, and they SUCCEED AND GET AWAY WITH IT.

They are sociopaths in charge of the populace, something which adds a subtle but blatant chilling darkness to Sonic's world, arguably much darker than the ones where Robotnik has taken over since he is still a cartoon villain that can be fought against.

Saying they are minor antagonists only goes so far when they are still a key pivot to the story they are in and add quite a bizarre weight how the Sonic universe works. Sonic's world is controlled by corrupt people who gun down innocent people to cover their crimes, and no one stops them. No wonder later games tried to play them as reformed (if with no explanation why).

I mean THAT PHOTO, that picture of Gerald in chains, a broken empty man because the people in charge of him gunned down everyone he cared about and then framed him for it all just to save their own selfish asses, taken just seconds after they execute him where he sits. That is by far more morbid context than arguably anything any other villain has done in the games series, especially given the realistic portrayal of this sort of crime and the fact it wasn't foiled or reversed. GERALD WAS FRAMED AND SHOT DEAD. THEY WON.

They are still minor antagonists because the focus of the story is still primarily on Team Sonic vs. Team Eggman; you can use all of the hyperbolic statements all you want to describe GUN, it won't change the fact that they are still ultimately a minor part of the game's narrative and only serve as plot devices to move it forward. They were so minor in the grand scheme that they have literally not been mentioned at all since 06 and nobody really cared. 

I can tell this bothers you WAY more than it does to me since you seem to love exaggerating their presence; I don't really know what else to say at this point on this subject because I feel like you just have an inherent distaste for any grit in this series because it goes against the expectations of what you built up as, even if it said grit is a MINOR part of any game. 

I don't think GUN are all that problematic and you saying all of that isn't going to change that at all.

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35 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

 I mean, their crimes were exposed when they played Gerald's execution tape, and super exposed in Shadow. 

The individual would have to be either the President or the old G.U.N commander, but the new commander is the only character who we know who was alive back then and lived until the present day, so we probably'll never find that out. 

That makes sense.

Of course, that's without getting into whether that President/Commander was even still around by the time this stuff was on the way to cropping back up with Eggman finding Gerald's diary. After all, US Presidents generally only serve an average total of an 8 year term, while the hypothetical Commander may not even be the Commander that was presumably fired to be replaced by Tower. 

For all anyone knows, that person just kicked back for the rest of their life thinking they averted a crisis to the human world when they really just cleaned up their own mess and condemned the people who were unlucky enough to have been chosen for their jobs to do it.

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11 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

They are still minor antagonists because the focus of the story is still primarily on Team Sonic vs. Team Eggman; you can use all of the hyperbolic statements all you want to describe GUN, it won't change the fact that they are still ultimately a minor part of the game's narrative and only serve as plot devices to move it forward. They were so minor in the grand scheme that they have literally not been mentioned at all since 06 and nobody really cared. 

Oh come on, man, now you're not even being honest. They're secondary antagonists, after the opposing team (and then Gerald('s plan) in the Last Story), but you don't spend an entire game mostly fighting their robots and having several boss fights with them, with them being a significant force in the story and impacting nearly every character, and then call them "minor". And, yeah, they haven't mattered for a while now, but you could say the same about a lot of things the series has introduced, and most of them didn't have a major presence in 3 games before disappearing like GUN did. And people have actually commented on them being gone, specifically regarding them not coming up in Forces.

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Sonic Team saw fit to get rid of them themselves. People definetly noticed but they seem to be avoiding the topic anyway. This entire discussion seems silly when you remember this kind of content has been long gone from the series at Sonic Team's own discression We had these characters in the games for 4 or 5 years and they've been gone for over 10. It's done with. 

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29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Oh come on, man, now you're not even being honest. They're secondary antagonists, after the opposing team (and then Gerald('s plan) in the Last Story), but you don't spend an entire game mostly fighting their robots and having several boss fights with them, with them being a significant force in the story and impacting nearly every character, and then call them "minor". And, yeah, they haven't mattered for a while now, but you could say the same about a lot of things the series has introduced, and most of them didn't have a major presence in 3 games before disappearing like GUN did. And people have actually commented on them being gone, specifically regarding them not coming up in Forces.

Yes I can when they have no actual narrative presence beyond just serving as an obstacle for the heroes to overcome; I said it before, they're plot devices. That's all they are. The only characters they have a direct, personal impact on is Shadow. Beyond that, they're just brushed off. 

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Look, I'm not trying to say that GUN has no presence in the game whatsoever, nor am I saying that their presence doesn't make the game any more dark; but literally 90% of the game is literally just Sonic & Shadow throwing stupid shade at each other and calling each other faker. Calling this game "excessively dark for the series" just feel disingenuous to justify lumping it in with the games that came afterward. 

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2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Calling this game "excessively dark for the series" just feel disingenuous to justify lumping it in with the games that came afterward. 

I agree but we don't have to downplay GUN's role to make this point.

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I apologize if I was doing that;I know GUN has a large presence in the game. But that aforementioned paragraph from @E-122-Psi feels like it's doing the opposite and overplaying how much of a presence they actually had just to make a point.  

 

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