Anyone else bored of Eggman being the villain? Also the series should go back to basics!

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

Look, I'm not trying to say that GUN has no presence in the game whatsoever, nor am I saying that their presence doesn't make the game any more dark; but literally 90% of the game is literally just Sonic & Shadow throwing stupid shade at each other and calling each other faker. Calling this game "excessively dark for the series" just feel disingenuous to justify lumping it in with the games that came afterward. 

I don't think me @Wraith or anyone else claiming they are a central antagonistic force are claiming that the game is that much darker, we are claiming that they are a central antagonistic force and the games about multiple things. Sonic games as I mentioned before have a very clear slant and its " Fight the power" . There are songs in blazes game with goddamn malcom X samples in it. SA2's plot is driven but what are essentially shitty super cops murdering a bunch of people an falsely imprisoning a dude. That dude breaking out, being reasonably upset about that, and then the shitty super cops try and false imprison another dude whilst looking for the first dude. This entire plot thread is kind of central to the story not just as an obstical but to show the other characters that shadow isn't just upset and this isn't some one off incident that happened 50 years ago. is disdain is reasonable because the shit cops are still shit. And presenting the them as an antagonistic force allows shadow to be wildly relatable. Its why there were so many people upset when it seemed as though shadow teamed up with the shit cops and why so many people didn't really care about Sega declaring to Ian he was never with the shit cops. They are a key antagonistic force in that game.

While they are not the villain that are super in your face, they as an organization is kinda why everything is happening. Their bumbling fascism and sheer incompetence. Sonic as a brand isn't fond of cops, a lot of sega games tend not to be. Cops are kinda bad, or at least super fantasy feds.  Point being they are rather important. 

 

[Wraith]

They're definetly a darker kind of antagonist than Eggman but I mostly see it as refreshing. Sonic is now actually being edgy and charging some sort of corrupt authority figure instead of someone that is inarguably a bad guy that nobody likes. The game mostly fails by kind of letting that angle drop and making them more neutral/good going forward. 

 

Sonic fans have to stop taking any kind of paradigm shift or new idea as some sort of disrespect as to what came before. It's unhealthy for the series's growth. 

[DryLagoon]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

A riddle for the ages that I didn't think about but remember SomecallmeJohnny doing is who exactly gave the order to raid the Space Colony Ark back then? Who had the authority to make that call 50 years ago? What became of that individual and were their crimes ever exposed?

Not sure if it's been linked here before, but this translation from a guidebook goes over a lot the game didn't have time to show. (one thing to note is "security hole" is actually the stage "Security Hall")

[Kuzu]

I feel like had a character like the Commander actually existed in SA2 and he was an active figure in the plot, it would have definitely felt like it more impact. That said, it probably would have made the conflict a lot more morally grey than most fans would be comfortable with. Especially since it's makes Eggman's assault against them all the more justified because they unfairly murdered someone he looked up to as a mentor. 

[Wraith]

I think GUN should have had some kind of send-off in the game's story since they're technically the ones responsible for the whole situation. The most you can say is that you don't feel so bad about Eggman blowing up Prison Island when it's all said and done. SA1 feels like it does a much better job of closing out all of it's threads. 

[E-122-Psi]

I get GUN aren't extremely major characters but they are still big pivots to the story, the main reason Shadow turned bad and they still exist. Again they are like the Coachman, only imagine if you took out even the fantasy elements of him that connected him to Pinocchio's Disney-ish world and just made him a straight up child trafficker with no cartoonish qualities at all.

At the end of the day this antagonist isn't a main center piece, but they are jarring in how they darken the whole presence and yet despite never closing their role, the story still wants everything to be finalised and idealistic and 'all's well that end's well' in the end (okay not happy, Shadow's dead, but he redeemed himself and saved the world). Just like the Coachman is still enslaving kids and forgotten about because Pinocchio's a real boy, GUN is still controlling a good deal of Sonic's world and have just recently proved they are as corrupt, murderous and self serving as ever, but hey time to go back to planet as cool and blue as Sonic.

Sure SA1 has a similar issue with its apocalypse (stupid Tails), but at least there's closure, Chaos is neutralised and gone, and the echidnas got their comeuppance long ago for setting events off. These guys are part of Sonic lore but not only do they mesh with its fantasy cartoon animal scheme a lot better, but they aren't a remaining ominous a presence anymore, they are dealt with. The ending at least has SOME right to be happy.

GUN may have worked as sort of a one off antagonistic force and with at least some sort of better aesthetic or contextual blend about it (heaven knows any Sonic media with authority figures tends to take shots at their competence), but as something so greater scope within the Sonic universe it's jarring. Apparently while playing Green Hill you should know a corrupt photo realistic human military is watching over it and could randomly try to gun you and any innocent soul down to hide their crimes.

[Kuzu]

I don't feel this is worth engaging anymore; you feel how you feel and I feel how I feel. have a nice day. 

[E-122-Psi]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

I don't feel this is worth engaging anymore; you feel how you feel and I feel how I feel. have a nice day. 

Fair enough. You too.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Look, I'm not trying to say that GUN has no presence in the game whatsoever, nor am I saying that their presence doesn't make the game any more dark; but literally 90% of the game is literally just Sonic & Shadow throwing stupid shade at each other and calling each other faker. Calling this game "excessively dark for the series" just feel disingenuous to justify lumping it in with the games that came afterward. 

 

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I apologize if I was doing that;I know GUN has a large presence in the game. But that aforementioned paragraph from @E-122-Psi feels like it's doing the opposite and overplaying how much of a presence they actually had just to make a point.  

 

Again, stop already.

You're fighting a battle that's been over for much of the day and getting up in arms to defend just because E-122(a member who often focuses on how stories handle themes and especially characters traits  anyway) said things that are secondarily related to SA2.

We have rerailed the conversation to be on topic by discussing GUN as an [hero] antagonistic force. If Psi doing their personal "thing" in this forum accordingly bothers you so much, maybe you should just ignore her/him or take a break until you have something else to contribute.

[Kuzu]

You didn't read the above two posts didn't you.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't think me @Wraith or anyone else claiming they are a central antagonistic force are claiming that the game is that much darker, we are claiming that they are a central antagonistic force and the games about multiple things. Sonic games as I mentioned before have a very clear slant and its " Fight the power" . There are songs in blazes game with goddamn malcom X samples in it.

I love how Dr. Nega is apparently synonymous with Civil Rights Radicalism. Thanks for reminding me.

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

 

While they are not the villain that are super in your face, they as an organization is kinda why everything is happening. Their bumbling fascism and sheer incompetence. Sonic as a brand isn't fond of cops, a lot of sega games tend not to be. Cops are kinda bad, or at least super fantasy feds.  Point being they are rather important. 

 

Which is why it's humorous that the Movie essentially features one as the deuteragonist.

 

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

They're definetly a darker kind of antagonist than Eggman but I mostly see it as refreshing. Sonic is now actually being edgy and charging some sort of corrupt authority figure instead of someone that is inarguably a bad guy that nobody likes.

It also helps show that Sonic is technically an antihero when you get down to it. Just as softer/respectable one by usual accounts.

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

The game mostly fails by kind of letting that angle drop and making them more neutral/good going forward. 

That's sorta why I mentioned Tower's backstory earlier, as well as the point Thumb made.

 

1 hour ago, DryLagoon said:

Not sure if it's been linked here before, but this translation from a guidebook goes over a lot the game didn't have time to show. (one thing to note is "security hole" is actually the stage "Security Hall")

Oh, so it was the president from around 52 years ago then. Which makes the implication and unused clarification that Rouge was in contact with the IronGiant-guy President even more fitting.

Thank you from bringing that to our attention. It's cool to see stuff like these actually were documented.  

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I feel like had a character like the Commander actually existed in SA2 and he was an active figure in the plot, it would have definitely felt like it more impact. That said, it probably would have made the conflict a lot more morally grey than most fans would be comfortable with. Especially since it's makes Eggman's assault against them all the more justified because they unfairly murdered someone he looked up to as a mentor. 

 

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

I think GUN should have had some kind of send-off in the game's story since they're technically the ones responsible for the whole situation. The most you can say is that you don't feel so bad about Eggman blowing up Prison Island when it's all said and done.

That's sorta my thought as well.

57 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

At the end of the day this antagonist isn't a main center piece, but they are jarring in how they darken the whole presence and yet despite never closing their role, the story still wants everything to be finalised and idealistic and 'all's well that end's well' in the end (okay not happy, Shadow's dead, but he redeemed himself and saved the world).

57 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Just like the Coachman is still enslaving kids and forgotten about because Pinocchio's a real boy, GUN is still controlling a good deal of Sonic's world and have just recently proved they are as corrupt, murderous and self serving as ever, but hey time to go back to planet as cool and blue as Sonic.

Eh, I don't know about murderous, but the situation does sorta reek of sketchiness.

57 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

GUN may have worked as sort of a one off antagonistic force and with at least some sort of better aesthetic or contextual blend about it (heaven knows any Sonic media with authority figures tends to take shots at their competence), but as something so greater scope within the Sonic universe it's jarring.

Another mild example of the advantages of open n shut, self contained stories, mayhap?

57 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Apparently while playing Green Hill you should know a corrupt photo realistic human military is watching over it and could randomly try to gun you and any innocent soul down to hide their crimes.

Which you can actually do, btw, provided you put up with hours of perfectionist gameplay.

 

20 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You didn't read the above two posts didn't you.

You're right; just saw the need to finally say it.

The previous page was just about over when I got to it, mind, but yeah.

[thumbs13]

G.U.N as shady antagonist figures were honestly pretty cool. I get why they can't be antagonists any more, but they worked. I wouldn't want a replacement G.U.N, though. 

The problem with Antagonists it that they either die or get developed out of being antagonists. The commander buried the hatchet with Shadow, and hired him and Omega. 

If they can recreate what worked with G.U.N in SA2, I'll be all for it. But I really don't think they can do it. So I'm fine with Eggman and the D6 having a one upping contest. 

 

[DabigRG]

13 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

The problem with Antagonists it that they either die or get developed out of being antagonists. The commander buried the hatchet with Shadow, and hired him and Omega. 

Ain't that the truth.

The general reasoning is likely that they're either too strong, too monstrous, too complicating, or some combination to realistically keep around for the ongoing series.

Quote

But I really don't think they can do it. So I'm fine with Eggman and the D6 having a one upping contest. 

 

When the latter bother to get together for havok or do much besides have their strongest warrior compete in contests, anyway.

[Multikaris]

13 hours ago, DabigRG said:

With the Classic separation in place and the current hanging around in Sonic's World, perhaps they can have a humanoid with magical powers.

What do you mean?

1. Sure. Not sure when they'd do so, though.

2. As in, the entire sequence didn't show much devastation. There was no impact felt by the player, outside of the cutscene where it happened. All that happened was plants turning gray, and Minnie and Squidward out of commision. For Pete's sake, we should have seen a tree collapse or something.

14 hours ago, DryLagoon said:

In an attempt to get things back on topic, if there was a new villain would you want another human like Eggman or another animal? If an animal, is there a certain species you'd prefer seeing and why?

A sea creature. Would get the land-vs-sea war plot to work well. It would be fun having a war of biomes.

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

Sonic Team saw fit to get rid of them themselves. People definetly noticed but they seem to be avoiding the topic anyway. This entire discussion seems silly when you remember this kind of content has been long gone from the series at Sonic Team's own discression We had these characters in the games for 4 or 5 years and they've been gone for over 10. It's done with. 

The closest things to this were GUN enemies out of context in Generations, and Eggman acting like GUN in Forces.

[DabigRG]

1 minute ago, Miragnarok said:

1. Sure. Not sure when they'd do so, though.

Hopefully, as a potential pitch for the next, wholly it's-own-thing game we're getting in the next two years.

1 minute ago, Miragnarok said:

2. As in, the entire sequence didn't show much devastation. There was no impact felt by the player, outside of the cutscene where it happened. All that happened was plants turning gray, and Minnie and Squidward out of commision. For Pete's sake, we should have seen a tree collapse or something.

Minnie and Squidward, lol

1 minute ago, Miragnarok said:

A sea creature. Would get the land-vs-sea war plot to work well. It would be fun having a war of biomes.

The return of Akhlut and Abyss?

1 minute ago, Miragnarok said:

The closest things to this were GUN enemies out of context in Generations, and Eggman acting like GUN in Forces.

This just reminded me how Nega hijacked a GUN carrier when the dimensions started merging.

Sonic Rush remake when?

[DryLagoon]

27 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

The closest things to this were GUN enemies out of context in Generations, and Eggman acting like GUN in Forces.

Now I'm wondering what it'd be like if the military in the movie had been called G.U.N. instead. It wouldn't change a ton, but fans in the know would be more on edge slightly.

Considering G.U.N. was introduced in SA2 written by Maekawa, it's only fitting they stopped being focused on once he left and other writers took over. They probably wanted a change in tone. I just don't get why when Unleashed already seemed like a balance to many. And then even more with Lost World.

[StaticMania]

So...Black Doom exists.

And logical conclusions lead me to believe the only reason he and the Cool AS Black Arms exist is to give a reason as to why G.U.N. would shut down the ark and kill all or most of those working on it. Outside of the fact that he secretly built a doomsday laser on it that is by default pointed at Earth...earth.

Shadow the Hedgehog (the game) gave Gerald Robotnik a...hidden motivation to have built the cannon, which is something.

 

[DabigRG]

5 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

Now I'm wondering what it'd be like if the military in the movie had been called G.U.N. instead. It wouldn't change a ton, but fans in the know would be more on edge slightly.

Would've been something else from the Archie reboot.

Quote

Considering G.U.N. was introduced in SA2 written by Maekawa, it's only fitting they stopped being focused on once he left and other writers took over.

Oh, astute observation.

He's partly responsible for Silver, correct?

Quote

They probably wanted a change in tone. I just don't get why when Unleashed already seemed like a balance to many. And then even more with Lost World.

What do you mean by that?

3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

So...Black Doom exists.

And logical conclusions lead me to believe the only reason he and the Cool AS Black Arms exist is to give a reason as to why G.U.N. would shut down the ark and kill all or most of those working on it. Outside of the fact that he secretly built a doomsday laser on it that is by default pointed at Earth...earth.

Shadow the Hedgehog (the game) gave Gerald Robotnik a...hidden motivation to have built the cannon, which is something.

 

Well that, explain why Shadow is evil colored with the ability to use Chaos Energy in a variety of ways, and to have a greater evil being with a long history for Shadow to eventually rise up against. Which technically the first time, isn't it?

But yes.

[DryLagoon]

30 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

So...Black Doom exists.

And logical conclusions lead me to believe the only reason he and the Cool AS Black Arms exist is to give a reason as to why G.U.N. would shut down the ark and kill all or most of those working on it. Outside of the fact that he secretly built a doomsday laser on it that is by default pointed at Earth...earth.

Shadow the Hedgehog (the game) gave Gerald Robotnik a...hidden motivation to have built the cannon, which is something.

 

They already had a reason. Not the best reason, but still had one. I know Gerald and Maria are the main ones focused on, but it makes me wonder what the others contributed that they were seen as worth killing. Maybe to avoid the information getting out? And if it was an incident on the same scale as "since they were founded", what happened when they were founded on that scale?

It makes me wonder how long he had it for. What would a cannon have to do with his project? Maybe that is related to G.U.N.'s reasoning? Giant lizard is one thing, but giant cannon that could be pointed at earth and blow it up? Way more sense they'd want him taken out of there and no one able to use it.

29 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Would've been something else from the Archie reboot.

Oh, astute observation.

He's partly responsible for Silver, correct?

What do you mean by that?

I'm not sure what you mean sorry.

You might be confusing him with Shun Nakamura, who created Silver. Shiro Maekawa is Shadow's co-creator. If I remember correctly, Takashi Iizuka had the idea of a "Dark Sonic", while Maekawa fleshed out the idea and wrote for him. Due to interviews we know that SA2 was heavily influenced by Maekawa, way more than any current game would be by a single person. He was in charge of writing the story, the storyboards (how the cut scenes look), and many of the details and new elements. It was also his idea Sonic go to space. Since SA2 was a story first game, this also meant levels were based on the story. (Heroes being mentioned as a case where the levels came first) The other games he wrote for are: Heroes, Sonic Riders 1&2, 06 (most likely just Shadow's route, but not 100% confirmed. He mentioned originally wanting to give Blaze a better role on twitter too), and the two storybook titles.

I'm sorry if I repeat myself, I just want to make sure this information is more well known as I think it helps slightly understand the change in direction over the years better. (and sometimes the creators go uncredited in the in game credits or under a nickname)

I'm seriously considering buying some books with interviews in the future just because I want to know more about it than wiki summaries. Although it's unlikely I'll be able to find much that isn't known already. It's nice we can still get some new answers occasionally thanks to social media though.

What I mean is the Adventure era is known for it's specific tone, but despite often being grouped in with this time, Unleashed was the first change from this after 06. Colors continued it. Generations didn't have as much story. But then they doubled down with Lost World. If you were to put them side by side Lost World would be jarring. To me Adventure is closer to Classic than Lost World (more so 1 than 2). But I can get the confusion as not all of this was as accessible back when these titles were coming out.

[StaticMania]

7 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

They already had a reason. Not the best reason, but still had one.

What reason outside of the 2 I mentioned would those be...?

[DryLagoon]

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

What reason outside of the 2 I mentioned would those be...?

From what I understand, it was related to the Biolizard growing out of control of the researchers, and someone informing G.U.N. about it. They likely wanted to stop the Project before things got drastic (like the end of SA2). They must have had some idea of Shadow himself, considering he's sealed away in Prison Island under heavy lock down. I'm honestly surprised they never had a plot line about testing on him in secret. (well before all the clone stuff introduced in Heroes onward) It's left somewhat vague on purpose. It's odd, as if it was too long in game people would complain, but I do wish there could have been more entries, maybe as some kind of optional unlockable like the sunken scrolls in Splatoon you could find hidden in levels.

[Wraith]

I never thought of how cool Project Shadow files would be as a collectable item. Maybe if they ever remade the game. 

[DryLagoon]

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I never thought of how cool Project Shadow files would be as a collectable item. Maybe if they ever remade the game. 

I was just thinking that myself. Rouge already talks about them in the story, and it's mentioned she found some at G.U.N., so maybe their levels could have them hidden for a bonus exploration aspect. Maybe the Ark ones could also have some from Gerald himself scattered around, or even more on Maria and Shadow before the incident.
 

[Wraith]

Perhaps you could even extend it to include diary entries from Maria to flesh out what her life, illness, and relationship with Shadow was really like. 

[StaticMania]

Man, it would've been such a just thing for them to think of the concept of diary entries "before" Sonic Battle. Jeez.