Anyone else bored of Eggman being the villain? Also the series should go back to basics!

[DabigRG]

On 9/7/2019 at 11:44 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

 

Anyway, sorry about that rambly wall of text, but it was kind of a hard thought process to break down with the little time I currently have to type it. But, while I'm not bored of Eggman (I just wish he was more world threatening because he's competent despite being a goof rather than he's a goof who endangers the world) I do see merit in growing Sonic's rogues gallery as long as it stays in theme (something I feel the Deadly Six fail at). So I guess looking at it like that I fall into the I'm good with Eggman but wouldn't mind more and need a return to basics only so much as it allows the expansion of Sonic's world through the exploration of the Industrialization vs Nature stance.

Since there seems to be nothing going on with this thread, I'd like to ask for any elaboration about this point.

[Ivo-goji]

It be cool if the other Sonic characters had individual nemesises.

There's basically Blaze and Eggman Nega, and that's it.  She even has to share him with Silver.  They were too poor to afford two arch enemies.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Ivo-goji said:

It be cool if the other Sonic characters had individual nemesises.

There basically Blaze and Eggman Nega, and that's it.  She even has to share him with Silver.  They were too poor to afford two arch enemies.

Agreed. 

Honestl, Dr. NEGA is a walking image of convenience/compromise. 

[MainJP]

On 9/22/2019 at 2:14 AM, Ivo-goji said:

It be cool if the other Sonic characters had individual nemesises.

There basically Blaze and Eggman Nega, and that's it.  She even has to share him with Silver.  They were too poor to afford two arch enemies.

They should bring back Tails' foes. Witchcart and Great Battle Kuku.

 

Quote

nemesises

The plural form of nemesis is nemeses. 

[Fire-N-Space]

I'm bored of Eggman as the main villain I'll prefer if it was Zavok or even Jet.

[Sonic Fan J]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 5:50 PM, DabigRG said:

On ‎9‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 8:44 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

I do see merit in growing Sonic's rogues gallery as long as it stays in theme (something I feel the Deadly Six fail at).

Since there seems to be nothing going on with this thread, I'd like to ask for any elaboration about this point.

Hmm... How to go about elaborating on it without getting to rambly?

I guess I'll start with the basic question of what do the Deadly Six represent. Are they Nature, or are they Industrialization? The ability to answer this question easily or not should help clarify things pretty quickly for the most since if you have to deliberate the answer then they already fail to meet the themes I was talking about in the Nature vs Industrialization aspect the series started with. But perhaps I'm being unfair and need to look at them a little differently.

Let's take a look at the Deadly Six's powers and see if this will make things any clearer for us. Outside of very unrefined individual abilities, they all share the ability to control magnetic fields and take over machinery. So, this gives us an interesting possible stance to look at them from even as it muddles things more. If they represent Nature in the capacity of Nature taking over Industrialization, then they fall in line with the idea of Nature as an enemy that does not seek coexistence with industrialization but domination. Sonic owning a plane and wearing gloves and shoes is now enough to make him an enemy of the Deadly Six and you can now flesh out their individual personalities based on their individual vices with technology. So, lets take a look at their world and see what type of technological vices we can find for them.

...

Soooo, off the top of my head I can think of Frozen Factory and Lava Mountain having some tech, with the former seeming mostly inoffensive beyond cluttering up the scenery and the latter being next to Eggman's machine and likely set up by the good doctor. But if we want to see the Zeti as a force of Nature trying to dominate Industrialization then there needs to be a lot more then what is presented. The lack of Industrialization makes it seem like they could care less which really doesn't play into any possible theme that crosses my mind. Worse yet, if we look at them as part of the Industrialization side the lack of present industry is made even worse as they would have expanded upon what was available with how long they have been there. Befuddling matters ever further is their only desire for making use of Eggman's tech is to spite him and Sonic. Nothing more. They have no connection of any kind with technology beyond their convenient ability to control it. In that light it becomes very difficult to see how they fit the Nature vs Industrialization theme.

At this point we're 0-2 in the count and it's not looking good for the Deadly Six, but perhaps what they are could settle this debate. So, their name tells us nothing except that someone probably thought the word "yeti" would sound really cool with a z instead of a y (unfortunately, not really). Then lets go off of the info we do have which is that they are based on, if not are, oni. Their Japanese name "Rokkishū literally translates as band of six ogres according to Wikipedia, six sly ghosts if translating the kanji as the Chinese meaning, and simply six demons if using the Japanese meaning. Well, that means we now know we have supernatural creatures, or things not of nature or science. Even if one follows any of the belief systems where all things possess a spirit, evil spirits, like oni, are typically not created from nature but by evil actions. That would again imply that they are not part of Nature or Industrialization. They are a separate party entirely (though not Eggman's first foray into catching the local ghosts if you consider S&K in Sandopolis Zone) which means they do not fit at all into the Nature vs Industrialization themes of the series' early days which leads me back to not feeling like the Deadly Six fit the series.

That is now three strikes and the first batter is out. As I'm using baseball analogies though, the Deadly Six have six more strikes they can take before they are no longer up to bat. However, I can knock it down to only five by pointing that Chaos and Dark Gaia represent Nature (specifically the mysticism angle) while the Bio Lizard, Solaris as Sonic encounters it, and even the Black Arms all represent the Industrial side with all three being reshaping and controlling Nature for their own ends through technology. So, it's the top of the first, one out, no hits, and the Deadly Six's first at bat struck out while their second to the plate is already behind in the count 0-1. It's not looking good for the Zeti if we are going back to basics and the Nature vs Industrialization theme. I'm curious what the Deadly Six have to offer to get out this one though or if it is going to be a perfect game against them.

[Wraith]

A franchise can have more than one overarching theme. Even if that weren't the case, the Deadly Six and the lost Hex count as as natural beings eggman tries to exploit as well as things like Chaos do.

[Splash the Otter]

2 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Hmm... How to go about elaborating on it without getting to rambly?

I guess I'll start with the basic question of what do the Deadly Six represent. Are they Nature, or are they Industrialization?

Why does everything have to be nature or industrialization?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

48 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

Why does everything have to be nature or industrialization?

Because it’s an interesting concept to explore?

[BaronGrackle]

2 hours ago, Splash the Otter said:

Why does everything have to be nature or industrialization?

With the Deadly Six, couldn't it be that they represent Ancient Status Quo, while Sonic embodies Modernity and Progress?

The Deadly Six are legend. Old magicks. Fate. Predictability. Inevitability. Almost like Merlina in Black Knight.

Sonic carries the best parts of nature AND civilization. He defies fate, breaks curses, beats the odds, brings optimism to a world of despair, all that stuff.

[Splash the Otter]

5 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Because it’s an interesting concept to explore?

There are plenty of other interesting concepts that could be explored too. I don't see why it should always be nature vs industry.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

26 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

There are plenty of other interesting concepts that could be explored too. I don't see why it should always be nature vs industry.

Then we can explore those too.

It doesn’t always have to be nature vs industry, but its not like the concept is stale. There’s creative room for more.

[DabigRG]

9 hours ago, Splash the Otter said:

Why does everything have to be nature or industrialization?

 

10 hours ago, Wraith said:

A franchise can have more than one overarching theme. Even if that weren't the case, the Deadly Six and the lost Hex count as as natural beings eggman tries to exploit as well as things like Chaos do.

Probably because it's a super broad concept that's easy to understand.

I agree that stepping outside of it is fine as well, even if the Zeti or from what I understand most traditional yokai seem to be more on the fairytail or crytozoology side.

[Sonic Fan J]

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 4:11 AM, Wraith said:

A franchise can have more than one overarching theme.

 

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 5:24 AM, Splash the Otter said:

Why does everything have to be nature or industrialization?

Sorry, but I think you might have missed part of the conversation. I don't disagree with you two in the least, but on the thread topic of going back to basics that would also entail a return to the Nature vs Industrialism sub-narrative. In that particular theme while listing possible angles of that conflict and the types of villains that could be born from it I stated that I did not believe that the Deadly Six fit within the Nature vs Industrialism theme and @DabigRG asked me to elaborate. So it's not that I was saying we should only have Nature vs Industrialism, but rather that if we returned to basics including that aspect of the series then I find to grow the rogues gallery that the Deadly Six would not make sense to be included for the above listed reasons. Part of that though simply falls back on the lack of definition given to them in any regard and their lack of interest in seemingly anything but spiting people. While that works for oni if you are familiar enough with Japanese mythology, even for Sonic it is astoundingly hollow.

22 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

With the Deadly Six, couldn't it be that they represent Ancient Status Quo, while Sonic embodies Modernity and Progress?

The Deadly Six are legend. Old magicks. Fate. Predictability. Inevitability. Almost like Merlina in Black Knight.

Sonic carries the best parts of nature AND civilization. He defies fate, breaks curses, beats the odds, brings optimism to a world of despair, all that stuff.

This is a really cool way to look at things and makes me wish SEGA/Sonic Team actually put some effort into the D6. Sometimes I almost wonder if the idea of appealing to fans of a franchise (Mario) where there is no real lore and everything is kept as simple as possible is part of what stripped them of a more engaging level of depth.

Adding onto that, and what @Splash the Otter is asking, if we go in the opposite direction of the OP and decide to expand the franchise and it's themes, what are some other themes that could work for a game series about an adventure loving hedgehog who is always challenging himself and seeking excitement?

Edited September 24, 2019 by Sonic Fan J
More thoughts to add.

[Ivo-goji]

On 9/24/2019 at 8:27 AM, Sonic Fan J said:

Adding onto that, and what @Splash the Otter is asking, if we go in the opposite direction of the OP and decide to expand the franchise and it's themes, what are some other themes that could work for a game series about an adventure loving hedgehog who is always challenging himself and seeking excitement?

The Adventure games and Sonic Battle were anti-war stories.

Black Knight was a story about Merlina learning to accept that change is inevitable.

Sonic Riders had Sonic learning a new skill to challenge a rival who believed he was a superior species.

Shadow's character development and that of the various robots like Gamma touches on identity issues.

Amy had a ongoing story arc of becoming more independent and learning to fight on her own that encompassed almost every appearance she made from SA to Unleashed.

Honestly before Colors tried "going back to basics" the franchise had a rich variety of themes.

[DabigRG]

Found this thread again while searching around and decided to use it instead: Who would you say was the best developed villain in the series?

[Soniman]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Found this thread again while searching around and decided to use it instead: Who would you say was the best developed villain in the series?

Other than Eggman? Because that would be my answer otherwise 

[Kuzu]

Eggman is such an obvious answer that I'm going be contrarian and say Merlina. 

[Wraith]

Eggman is fine but he's fairly static. He doesn't really fit my defintion of developed.


 Most of the villains who are well developed developed all the way out of being villains once they realized they were being assholes. Do they count? If so it's a toss up between Chaos and Shadow for me. The way Chaos's backstory unraveled was handled better but I enjoyed Shadow as a personality more overall.
 

[StaticMania]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Found this thread again while searching around and decided to use it instead: Who would you say was the best developed villain in the series?

Literally none of them just due to the nature of their goal and/ore existence.

Ignore Shadow and Chaos, they don't exist.

Merlina and Erazor Djinn are the closest to developed this series has for villains outside of Eggman.

[Shadowlax]

Gerald.

His motivations make sense, mostly. He's still a fucking villain though

[DryLagoon]

I will give a top 3 (excluding Eggman himself for obvious reasons) and why.

3. Gerald - I find him to be an interesting case. He started out as a scientist wanting to better the world and save his granddaughter, but after what G.U.N. did on the Ark it turned him mad. The way this is expressed in his journal audio in the Japanese version is truly haunting in a way none of the others did as you hear it in his voice. You can see why Eggman looked up to him before that. I also like some of the details like how he was researching into Echidna culture and Chaos. He was pretty clever with his plan, Eggman already came off as so in this game but manipulating Shadow and setting a trap for the emeralds no one knew about is pretty intense. The Ark would have done a ton of damage if it had landed. (That would be an interesting theory too)
Edit: Over the top fictional parts aside, he comes off as the most realistic one to me. You can believe that something similar could happen in different circumstances. Many can relate to loved ones getting sick in a way we can't control, or wanting to make the world a better place despite people saying it's no good. (A good comparison might be Mr.Freeze from Batman the Animated Series who also was trying to save someone he loved)

2. Merlina - While she is from a spin off title, I was caught off guard by her. I had heard the song "With Me" sung by a female singer but was confused of the context as the villain was clearly a male knight, right? In hindsight it's kind of funny Sonic got pulled into an isekai story (summoned to another world) a few years before that took off in the anime community. Anyways I didn't think too much at first, I thought she would act as Sonic's mentor and guide along the way to save the day. Comparing her with Elise is interesting too. But as others have said I really liked the lesson of how things have to change even if you don't want them to. You can kind of see where she's coming from even if she's misguided.

1. Shadow - I don't really consider him a villain even if he was introduced as one. However terms aside, he definitely had the most growth. A lot compare him to Knuckles and Metal Sonic, but I think there are a few differences. Shadow wasn't tricked, but rather outright brainwashed into wrongly remembering what Maria wished for him to do. While he starts out against Sonic, I'd say it's not as hostile as Metal. Rather than anything personal, Sonic just keeps getting in the way of his plans. We see him save Rouge's life. He learns what Sonic is capable of and learns to respect him. When he finds out what Maria really wanted, he goes out to set things right and sacrifices himself despite Sonic telling him to go back inside the Ark. I won't really get into post SA2 here, but I'm sure others will have more to say.

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, Soniman said:

Other than Eggman? Because that would be my answer otherwise 

Yes, other than Eggman. Or Shadow, for that matter.

Probably should've prefaced that.

5 hours ago, Wraith said:

 Most of the villains who are well developed developed all the way out of being villains once they realized they were being assholes. Do they count? If so it's a toss up between Chaos and Shadow for me. The way Chaos's backstory unraveled was handled better but I enjoyed Shadow as a personality more overall.
 

Yeah, that is indeed the caveat I was wary of and felt the need to dig around.

5 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Literally none of them just due to the nature of their goal and/ore existence.

Ignore Shadow and Chaos, they don't exist.

Merlina and Erazor Djinn are the closest to developed this series has for villains outside of Eggman.

I was actually thinking of Erazor recently. Partly because I don't really get him.

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Gerald.

His motivations make sense, mostly. He's still a fucking villain though

Oh.

That's actually not one I was expecting.

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Yes, other than Eggman. Or Shadow, for that matter.

Probably should've prefaced that.

Yeah, that is indeed the caveat I was wary of and felt the need to dig around.

I was actually thinking of Erazor recently. Partly because I don't really get him.

Oh.

That's actually not one I was expecting.

Imagine if your dad fucked with your memories to make you want to kill someone against your mother/sisters wishes. That shit says a lot about who he is as a person and how he viewed shadow purely as a weapon of war in that instance. He isn't a giant god or a demon. But he's an awful abusive dad to the degree in which his abuse almost ended the planet. Yeah may have felt regret after the fact, it doesn't change he did that shit.

 

" You ruined a perfectly good ultimate life form. Now it has anxiety"

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Imagine if your dad fucked with your memories to make you want to kill someone against your mother/sisters wishes. That shit says a lot about who he is as a person and how he viewed shadow purely as a weapon of war in that instance. He isn't a giant god or a demon. But he's an awful abusive dad to the degree in which his abuse almost ended the planet. Yeah may have felt regret after the fact, it doesn't change he did that shit.

 

" You ruined a perfectly good ultimate life form. Now it has anxiety"

Actually, he became that and what we see in Shadow was recorded/projected before things got dark.