Anyone else bored of Eggman being the villain? Also the series should go back to basics!

[E-122-Psi]

I'm fine with new villains so long as we don't get back to the old formula of just having a cardboard more 'ultimate' baddie swat away Eggman to be the final boss. We need more villains on his level, guys that can be effective but still have their own compelling character and aren't just there to be the more generic sci monster baddie to destroy because Eggman doesn't meet that standard of epicness.

While the Deadly Six weren't brilliant they were at least a step in the right direction.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

I'm fine with new villains so long as we don't get back to the old formula of just having a cardboard more 'ultimate' baddie swat away Eggman to be the final boss. We need more villains on his level, guys that can be effective but still have their own compelling character and aren't just there to be the more generic sci monster baddie to destroy because Eggman doesn't meet that standard of epicness.

While the Deadly Six weren't brilliant they were at least a step in the right direction.

That's basically what I'd ideally look for as well.

The Zeti(particularly the Filler Two and ultimately Zavok himself) suffered from, among other things, not really owning their place in the game/series.

[E-122-Psi]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

That's basically what I'd ideally look for as well.

The Zeti(particularly the Filler Two and ultimately Zavok himself) suffered from, among other things, not really owning their place in the game/series.

Truth be told, while I agree the Zeti are undercooked, I think their role felt as connected to their series as any previous non-Eggman villain besides maybe Chaos. Their entire world was kinda a random WTF, but then again it's been that way since Angel Island was revealed, random disconnected bits of lore and magic. I also feel like the Zeti fit with the cartoony aesthetics of the original universe better, hell they even kinda look like the discarded baddies from Sonic 1 concept art, while almost all the SA2-Next Gen era storylines involved completely converting the games universe into something so different that the main characters looked like aliens in their own world (though at least the backdrop change was intentional in the case of the Storybook series). It feels like Shadow being a 'twin' of Sonic for some unknown reason, and his creator being in the Robotnik family are the only things connecting most of his lore to the Sonic universe and not making it more befitting of some adult sci fi franchise, otherwise could you see the Biolizard and Black Doom meshing with Sonic's old lore?

I also feel like the Zeti were better in terms of not just being flat 'hey we're more powerful and sinister than Eggman in every way' types. Sure they usurped Eggman but that was after he oppressed them first. There was a proper power play and opportunist aspect to them which made them feel more fallible, not just using him all along and then swatting him away when he was no longer useful like nearly EVERY SA2 antagonist did. I like when two sides of evil are actually fighting with each other with no restricted hierarchy, especially if they're equally arrogant and bumbling (I'd love a AoSth Quark counterpart in the games for example). I also like them all having at least some basic individual quirks, maybe not enough to make them three dimensional and compelling, but enough to make them vibrant in terms of the games' old direction; animation and body language making them fun in action.

Now don't get me the wrong, the Zeti are definitely far from the perfect secondary villain in the Sonic series, but in terms of getting those basics right and having at least two dimensions instead of just one, they show what is needed to expand upon.

[Shadowlax]

7 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Actually, he became that and what we see in Shadow was recorded/projected before things got dark.

Obviously he didnt start that way, no one is born bad. It doesn't change what he became or what he did. Like I said, I get it, he's still a villain. His motivation are compelling its why I would say he's the best developed. He's one of the few sonic villains with actual things compelling him instead of vague notions of world domination or existential darkness. He was just hurt and wanted to hurt people.

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Truth be told, while I agree the Zeti are undercooked, I think their role felt as connected to their series as any previous non-Eggman villain besides maybe Chaos. Their entire world was kinda a random WTF, but then again it's been that way since Angel Island was revealed, random disconnected bits of lore and magic. I also feel like the Zeti fit with the cartoony aesthetics of the original universe better, hell they even kinda look like the discarded baddies from Sonic 1 concept art, while almost all the SA2-Next Gen era storylines involved completely converting the games universe into something so different that the main characters looked like aliens in their own world (though at least the backdrop change was intentional in the case of the Storybook series). It feels like Shadow being a 'twin' of Sonic for some unknown reason, and his creator being in the Robotnik family are the only things connecting most of his lore to the Sonic universe and not making it more befitting of some adult sci fi franchise, otherwise could you see the Biolizard and Black Doom meshing with Sonic's old lore?

I also feel like the Zeti were better in terms of not just being flat 'hey we're more powerful and sinister than Eggman in every way' types. Sure they usurped Eggman but that was after he oppressed them first. There was a proper power play and opportunist aspect to them which made them feel more fallible, not just using him all along and then swatting him away when he was no longer useful like nearly EVERY SA2 antagonist did. I like when two sides of evil are actually fighting with each other with no restricted hierarchy, especially if they're equally arrogant and bumbling (I'd love a AoSth Quark counterpart in the games for example). I also like them all having at least some basic individual quirks, maybe not enough to make them three dimensional and compelling, but enough to make them vibrant in terms of the games' old direction; animation and body language making them fun in action.

Now don't get me the wrong, the Zeti are definitely far from the perfect secondary villain in the Sonic series, but in terms of getting those basics right and having at least two dimensions instead of just one, they show what is needed to expand upon.

The Zeti are just TOO simple for my tastes; they're too flat for me to give a damn about them, and there's no spectacle involved in their boss fights, so they're just kind of blah.

Like yes, they fit in with the simpler approach the series has been going for since 2010, but I don't care for that direction at all sooo....

[McGroose]

43 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The Zeti are just TOO simple for my tastes; they're too flat for me to give a damn about them, and there's no spectacle involved in their boss fights, so they're just kind of blah.

Like yes, they fit in with the simpler approach the series has been going for since 2010, but I don't care for that direction at all sooo....

Agreed, I really don't know why Sega keeps bringing back Zavok. None of the Zeti have anything I find enjoyable. I get a cheap laugh out of the short depressed from one or two of his lines, but that's all I got out of the Deadly Six I could compliment. 

The problem with the direction the series has been going since 2010 is that there is no direction - there's no continuity at all and the stories are poorly fleshed out. It just feels like every new game does it's own thing, both in story and gameplay, without any regard for the game that just came out a year or two ago. I don't think we have a reason why the Wisps are still technically enslaved, what with them being in item boxes all throughout the world and all that.

Then again, the moon is still intact. 

 

[thumbs13]

The D6 and Eggman in a constant show of one-upsmanship could be really cool, if we're being honest. Villains who can face Eggman on equal terms without just batting him aside are cool. The three sided war in Shadow the Hedgehog was cool, and Eggman and Mephiles just being allowed to coexist was cool too. 

[DabigRG]

9 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Truth be told, while I agree the Zeti are undercooked, I think their role felt as connected to their series as any previous non-Eggman villain besides maybe Chaos. Their entire world was kinda a random WTF, but then again it's been that way since Angel Island was revealed, random disconnected bits of lore and magic.

 

I also feel like the Zeti were better in terms of not just being flat 'hey we're more powerful and sinister than Eggman in every way' types. Sure they usurped Eggman but that was after he oppressed them first. There was a proper power play and opportunist aspect to them which made them feel more fallible, not just using him all along and then swatting him away when he was no longer useful like nearly EVERY SA2 antagonist did.

I also like them all having at least some basic individual quirks, maybe not enough to make them three dimensional and compelling, but enough to make them vibrant in terms of the games' old direction; animation and body language making them fun in action.

Now don't get me the wrong, the Zeti are definitely far from the perfect secondary villain in the Sonic series, but in terms of getting those basics right and having at least two dimensions instead of just one, they show what is needed to expand upon.

Very true that is.

9 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I also feel like the Zeti fit with the cartoony aesthetics of the original universe better, hell they even kinda look like the discarded baddies from Sonic 1 concept art, while almost all the SA2-Next Gen era storylines involved completely converting the games universe into something so different that the main characters looked like aliens in their own world (though at least the backdrop change was intentional in the case of the Storybook series).

I realized they look like how the Classic Series tended to design villains, myself. 

9 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

It feels like Shadow being a 'twin' of Sonic for some unknown reason, and his creator being in the Robotnik family are the only things connecting most of his lore to the Sonic universe and not making it more befitting of some adult sci fi franchise, otherwise could you see the Biolizard and Black Doom meshing with Sonic's old lore?

Pretty much.

Like, the Biolizard vaguely fits into "what has science done," but it still looks nothing like anything else.

9 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I like when two sides of evil are actually fighting with each other with no restricted hierarchy, especially if they're equally arrogant and bumbling (I'd love a AoSth Quark counterpart in the games for example).

That was one of the big draws of the Archie comics honestly. You got Eggman/Robotnik being THE Dictator with a lot of impactful antagonism throughout the massive cast, but you also had villains like Naugus, the Iron Dominion, and Scourge going around doing their own things that occasionally led to encounters with his empire, whether collusive or hostile.  Sometimes even both at once.

7 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Obviously he didnt start that way, no one is born bad. It doesn't change what he became or what he did. Like I said, I get it, he's still a villain. His motivation are compelling its why I would say he's the best developed. He's one of the few sonic villains with actual things compelling him instead of vague notions of world domination or existential darkness. He was just hurt and wanted to hurt people.

Indeed.

Now if only we can get another villain that's that in the present day.

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, McGroose said:

Agreed, I really don't know why Sega keeps bringing back Zavok.

Whether favoritism is still a viable assumption or not, I'm pretty sure it's mostly convenience at this point.

5 hours ago, McGroose said:

The problem with the direction the series has been going since 2010 is that there is no direction - there's no continuity at all and the stories are poorly fleshed out. It just feels like every new game does it's own thing, both in story and gameplay, without any regard for the game that just came out a year or two ago.

I kinda the feeling Lost World was meant to kick off an actual direction considering how open-ended the ending is when you think about it and the handful of memorabilia that stuck around afterwards, but the game's polarization reception and the anniversary being around the corner caused them to apparently shelve/scrap it.

5 hours ago, McGroose said:

 I don't think we have a reason why the Wisps are still technically enslaved, what with them being in item boxes all throughout the world and all that.

They aren't. The explanation is that some of them liked Sonic's World and decided to stick around & reproduce there.

The capsules are just for gameplay convenience, though IDW at least rolls even further by saying they intentional hang around them when the Resistance became a necessary thing. 

5 hours ago, McGroose said:

Then again, the moon is still intact. 

 

I thought Eggman fixed it as an apology for everything his family did.

Or was that it's just not facing in a way that would show the damage?

[Wraith]

9 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Truth be told, while I agree the Zeti are undercooked, I think their role felt as connected to their series as any previous non-Eggman villain besides maybe Chaos. Their entire world was kinda a random WTF, but then again it's been that way since Angel Island was revealed, random disconnected bits of lore and magic. I also feel like the Zeti fit with the cartoony aesthetics of the original universe better, hell they even kinda look like the discarded baddies from Sonic 1 concept art, while almost all the SA2-Next Gen era storylines involved completely converting the games universe into something so different that the main characters looked like aliens in their own world (though at least the backdrop change was intentional in the case of the Storybook series). It feels like Shadow being a 'twin' of Sonic for some unknown reason, and his creator being in the Robotnik family are the only things connecting most of his lore to the Sonic universe and not making it more befitting of some adult sci fi franchise, otherwise could you see the Biolizard and Black Doom meshing with Sonic's old lore?

I also feel like the Zeti were better in terms of not just being flat 'hey we're more powerful and sinister than Eggman in every way' types. Sure they usurped Eggman but that was after he oppressed them first. There was a proper power play and opportunist aspect to them which made them feel more fallible, not just using him all along and then swatting him away when he was no longer useful like nearly EVERY SA2 antagonist did. I like when two sides of evil are actually fighting with each other with no restricted hierarchy, especially if they're equally arrogant and bumbling (I'd love a AoSth Quark counterpart in the games for example). I also like them all having at least some basic individual quirks, maybe not enough to make them three dimensional and compelling, but enough to make them vibrant in terms of the games' old direction; animation and body language making them fun in action.

Now don't get me the wrong, the Zeti are definitely far from the perfect secondary villain in the Sonic series, but in terms of getting those basics right and having at least two dimensions instead of just one, they show what is needed to expand upon.

I don't get why they get praised for largely superficial qualities like fitting the series better or not completely taking the spotlight away from Eggman when they are far and away colossal failures in terms of being engaging characters. Every other villain has more to offer there because their games were actually about them. Sonic Lost World isn't even about the deadly six. It's about Sonic and Tails getting into an argument. 

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

 The three sided war in Shadow the Hedgehog was cool

Yeah, it actually kinda was.

And that's actually part of what I'd want out of the Zeti's setup: you got Eggman & his Empire trying to conquer the world, you got Sonic & his friends running around stopping him whenever they cross paths, sometimes you have Team Dark (& on the human world GUN in particuarly) actually protecting the world on a semi-consistent basis, and then you got the Deadly Six & whatever else they decide to utilize from the Lost Hex coming down from time to time intent on battling with any of them.

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

 Every other villain has more to offer there because their games were actually about them. Sonic Lost World isn't even about the deadly six. It's about Sonic and Tails getting into an argument. 

This is very true as well and arguably something a number of recent games need to continue working on.

There are generally inherent reasons for that, but still.

[DryLagoon]

I'd take the Biolizard any day. Sure it's got a different design, but it did it's purpose well and unlike some certain other characters, didn't overstay it's welcome. Sometimes a one and done is okay.

The concept of the Deadly Six was fine, but I really am not fond of them. I'm not even against unserious enemies, but as others have said they had their chance and didn't bother to do anything with them. I'd rather see (a) new villain(s) instead.

I'm a bit surprised no one has mentioned Infinite yet. Sure he probably won't be on any top rankings, and his story could have been proof read some more, but I do appreciate the attempt. I still kind of wish they went with the ghost looking design though. (could have played with being a ghost from Shadow's past. I think the ghost look with the horns from the other concepts would have been a cool combination)

I am a bit confused about people wanting villains besides Eggman but then also wanting Eggman to share the spotlight with them. Isn't that exactly what leads to them one upping him to look more powerful?

As usual for me another SA2 example is the Dark story team. You have Eggman seemingly calling the shots of the operation, with Rouge and Shadow following along. We later learn that both Rouge and Shadow have their own motivations for being part of this group. They also argue at times, and you've got sneaking around and back stabbing. I think they did a good job of selling the team and the at the time brand new characters. At the same time, once the mission was over you can see why they split from Eggman too. It was interesting seeing Eggman have to plan with others instead of just him and his robots.

I honestly wonder if the reason why Eggman was never given any non robot companions in the games was to make him seem like more of a loner, maybe to contrast how Sonic is able to make so many friends while all Eggman can do is build his own servants.

[DabigRG]

2 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

I am a bit confused about people wanting villains besides Eggman but then also wanting Eggman to share the spotlight with them. Isn't that exactly what leads to them one upping him to look more powerful?

It's basically about variety and/or having something extra to spice things up from time to time. Having other villains besides Eggman(and if you wanna count them, Metal Sonic and the Shapebots) stick around could mix up the sorta stories, themes, and setpieces we'd have from time to time.

One persistent issue with the series is that it keeps getting into these ruts that repeat the same general elements a little too often for an era(ex. Monster hijacking Eggman, Shadow taking over the series, Pontac&Graff's style of writing) and having villains that could give Eggman a break, provide extra pressure alongside him, and/or allow other characters/elements to be involved would be a step towards.

Plus, Villain vs Villain, Villain Teamup, or All of One stories are generally fun.

2 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

As usual for me another SA2 example is the Dark story team. You have Eggman seemingly calling the shots of the operation, with Rouge and Shadow following along. We later learn that both Rouge and Shadow have their own motivations for being part of this group. They also argue at times, and you've got sneaking around and back stabbing. I think they did a good job of selling the team and the at the time brand new characters. At the same time, once the mission was over you can see why they split from Eggman too.

That's an ur example of why that story worked so well and why the recent games aren't quite as impactful as they could/should be.

SonicTeam used to go all out with whatever new toys or ideas they had and whether ya liked some of them or not, they were consummate and totally about what they doing one game to another.

2 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

It was interesting seeing Eggman have to plan with others instead of just him and his robots. I honestly wonder if the reason why Eggman was never given any non robot companions in the games was to make him seem like more of a loner, maybe to contrast how Sonic is able to make so many friends while all Eggman can do is build his own servants.

That's probably exactly it, considering Misters Pontac and Graff apparently had to argue for including Orbot and Cubot in Lost World.

Despite the likelihood of SonicTeam also creating them in the first place, even.

[DryLagoon]

9 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

It's basically about variety and/or having something extra to spice things up from time to time. Having other villains besides Eggman(and if you wanna count them, Metal Sonic and the Shapebots) stick around could mix up the sorta stories, themes, and setpieces we'd have from time to time.

One persistent issue with the series is that it keeps getting into these ruts that repeat the same general elements a little too often for an era(ex. Monster hijacking Eggman, Shadow taking over the series, Pontac&Graff's style of writing) and having villains that could give Eggman a break, provide extra pressure alongside him, and/or allow other characters/elements to be involved would be a step towards.

Plus, Villain vs Villain, Villain Teamup, or All of One stories are generally fun.

That's an ur example of why that story worked so well and why the recent games aren't quite as impactful as they could/should be.

SonicTeam used to go all out with whatever new toys or ideas they had and whether ya liked some of them or not, they were consummate and totally about what they doing one game to another.

That's probably exactly it, considering Misters Pontac and Graff apparently had to argue for including Orbot and Cubot in Lost World.

Despite the likelihood of SonicTeam also creating them in the first place, even.

Oh yeah I do agree that the Adventure era had some repeated themes. I'm not saying it should always be Eggman and some giant monster trying to destroy the world. I can't help but miss when they were tied into existing lore or new lore. (Chaos being tied into Echidna history and Biolizard being tied into Gerald/G.U.N. events) One of my favorite elements of SA1 is the gradual build up of Chaos. Right from the opening you're shown what it will become and it's so exciting and tense wondering how this humandoid blob turns into a giant water lizard. Even if space is a bigger scale, getting to know Station Square and it's (admittedly small) residents gives it more impact. While repeated boss battles did get annoying, seeing Chaos change each time Eggman got an emerald made stopping him feel all the more urgent.

In concept it does, but Forces had a lot of past villains in it (even if not really them) too. An idea will only go so far with bad execution. (I still wanted a Chaos boss battle too) I think it's best to give it awhile before we get another large scale team up. (meaning more than 5 at a time)

That's what I liked about it. Not everyone liked every idea, but I do miss the experiments. Everyone joked about Sonic having a sword but the story for that game was interesting to me. I think if the game play was more consistent the story changes wouldn't bother as much.

I'm a bit conflicted about it. I understand why they wouldn't want to add too much to Eggman. At the same time I wouldn't have thought I'd want Gerald or Maria before SA2. Maybe if it was a temporary team up it wouldn't go against that? I'm unsure about it. Then again Eggman can still interact with others without being friends with them like Sara in the OVA or like in the movie recently.

[exampletext123456]

On 9/3/2019 at 11:23 AM, Plasme said:

If anything we need Eggman to actually play the villain again. Most recently we've had Deadly Six, Lyric and Infinite as the focal villains, so we haven't really had much focus on him in the 'modern games'.

I definitely agree with this. I would also suggest a whole new writing team for Sega, since the current people can't seem to do it right.

[DryLagoon]

To me I view Eggman like the Joker. In the sense that Batman has many villains, but Joker will always be his biggest one. Not every story will be a Joker story, but when he does arrive it's usually exciting stuff. That's why I don't mind when they take breaks from Eggman, as it makes his return more meaningful. Eggman will always be number one, but if he is in every single title they risk people getting tired of his repetition.

[E-122-Psi]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

I don't get why they get praised for largely superficial qualities like fitting the series better or not completely taking the spotlight away from Eggman when they are far and away colossal failures in terms of being engaging characters. Every other villain has more to offer there because their games were actually about them. Sonic Lost World isn't even about the deadly six. It's about Sonic and Tails getting into an argument. 

Really? The argument seemed like a bad attempt at a side plot at best. Lost World at least I suppose was TRYING to be character driven, and having the villains not only serve as a threat but actually indirectly pivot some emotional hardships for the heroes by the predicament they caused, just the execution wasn't really all that competent.

I question whether previous villain offer more just because they are more central focus (if they really are, most of them are barely entities until they double cross Eggman). Ultimately the story should still have focus on its main characters. Lost World, as sad as it is, is one of few games that focused on the main group as characters, rather than being mostly retooled to befit some new ones stealing the show (Next Gen was largely revolved around the development of Silver and Elise because of Iblis/Mephiles for example, with Sonic and Eggman practically shoehorned in to just do their usual skit, ultimately Iblis was not even a passive attempt to build on the established Sonic universe, just morph it unnaturally according a passing fad).

I don't think the Deadly Six are the best examples, but I think they are step in the right direction, if a subtle and still very flawed one. They can refine it for another villain. Let's say they try another echidna villain that ties to Knuckles' past (so long as Penders doesn't sue again :P) or a more cerebral and manipulative villain that manipulates Sonic and the others' scruples or flaws to develop on them (even something low scale like a lot of the Boom villains could be effective).

It's maybe also why many think Sonic's RIVALS do a better job taking this role to task, though the downside is pretty much all of them turn good after their first appearance.

[StaticMania]

5 hours ago, DryLagoon said:

I am a bit confused about people wanting villains besides Eggman but then also wanting Eggman to share the spotlight with them. Isn't that exactly what leads to them one upping him to look more powerful?

This wouldn't be a problem if the villains were actually recurring and weren't so...generically evil and/or mindless that they literally need to be killed off.

[Shadowlax]

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

I don't get why they get praised for largely superficial qualities like fitting the series better or not completely taking the spotlight away from Eggman when they are far and away colossal failures in terms of being engaging characters. Every other villain has more to offer there because their games were actually about them. Sonic Lost World isn't even about the deadly six. It's about Sonic and Tails getting into an argument. 

I'm not accusing anyone on this forum of this. And I mean this genuinely, this forum has a sonic tilt and is generally pretty open to different types of sonic so for me to accuse this forum of this would be ignorant at best. But I find in other places discussion is had " Well at least they are simple or better fit the series or don't take spotlight away from eggman " where they do seldom get praise is mostly by folks who don't have enough confidence to say " I don't want anything edgy , I want it to be like the old days and I want eggman to be the big bad" . These characters are good to them because they want their forays into sonic to not offend their senses.

Some people might say that , considering this, these characters seemingly immense unpopularity , speaks to maybe trying to make unoffensive safe sonic is kind of a bad idea. That their entire existence, from their off brand dreamworks appearance, to their mario esque lack of personalities says something about how trying to be inoffensive and safe with sonic is generally not the best idea. Even the classic games took risks and did weird stuff and that's part of the reason people loved them, and that trying to extract that from the series indicates a failure to understand what this series is about and the D6 is their entirety represent that failure on the part of a portion of the audience and the developer listening to them.

I would say those people are on to something.

[Wraith]

6 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Really? The argument seemed like a bad attempt at a side plot at best. Lost World at least I suppose was TRYING to be character driven, and having the villains not only serve as a threat but actually indirectly pivot some emotional hardships for the heroes by the predicament they caused, just the execution wasn't really all that competent.

Every Sonic game puts pressure on the heroes. Lost World isn't all that unique or special in this regard and the deadly six aren't built in a way where they're especially fit to counter Sonic or challenge him personally. It all comes from Eggman, who makes the initial mistake of aggroing the six and makes Tails feel insecure about his abilities. They prop up the 90s cast instead of being interesting in their own right. That might be good by your criteria but it isn't enough for me.lo

I say that the argument is the point of the story because Sonic's flawed decision making, Tails's insecurity and whether bringing Eggman along was a good idea in the first place are THE things the story keeps going back to. Compare instead how the nature of Chaos, Shadow. and Solaris are unravelled like a mystery in the other games. The Deadly Six dont get treated with that level of intrigue or empathy. 

 

6 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I question whether previous villain offer more just because they are more central focus (if they really are, most of them are barely entities until they double cross Eggman). Ultimately the story should still have focus on its main characters. Lost World, as sad as it is, is one of few games that focused on the main group as characters, rather than being mostly retooled to befit some new ones stealing the show (Next Gen was largely revolved around the development of Silver and Elise because of Iblis/Mephiles for example, with Sonic and Eggman practically shoehorned in to just do their usual skit, ultimately Iblis was not even a passive attempt to build on the established Sonic universe, just morph it unnaturally according a passing fad).

Villains have chaos, Neo Metal Sonic, and Project SHADOW with is deliberate allusions to Echidna culture and ties to the Robotnik family tie in more deliberately to the series lore than anything the Deadly Six do. The most praise you can give them in this regard is that they resemble concept art from an aesthetic that the series abandoned before the first game even released. 

This argument only holds for Mephilies and even then I'd still argue that the fact that he targets Shadow's insecurities borne from the events of the previous specifically means that it's more in-tune with the series pre established lore than the Six. The game tries to juggle a lot of new concepts but I think if every new idea in the series had to tie into an old one that would be too limiting of a parameter anyway. 

 

6 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I don't think the Deadly Six are the best examples, but I think they are step in the right direction, if a subtle and still very flawed one. They can refine it for another villain. Let's say they try another echidna villain that ties to Knuckles' past (so long as Penders doesn't sue again :P) or a more cerebral and manipulative villain that manipulates Sonic and the others' scruples or flaws to develop on them (even something low scale like a lot of the Boom villains could be effective).

It's maybe also why many think Sonic's RIVALS do a better job taking this role to task, though the downside is pretty much all of them turn good after their first appearance.

Going back to the Echidna well isn't some something that interests me at this point. 

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I'm not accusing anyone on this forum of this. And I mean this genuinely, this forum has a sonic tilt and is generally pretty open to different types of sonic so for me to accuse this forum of this would be ignorant at best. But I find in other places discussion is had " Well at least they are simple or better fit the series or don't take spotlight away from eggman " where they do seldom get praise is mostly by folks who don't have enough confidence to say " I don't want anything edgy , I want it to be like the old days and I want eggman to be the big bad" . These characters are good to them because they want their forays into sonic to not offend their senses.

Some people might say that , considering this, these characters seemingly immense unpopularity , speaks to maybe trying to make unoffensive safe sonic is kind of a bad idea. That their entire existence, from their off brand dreamworks appearance, to their mario esque lack of personalities says something about how trying to be inoffensive and safe with sonic is generally not the best idea. Even the classic games took risks and did weird stuff and that's part of the reason people loved them, and that trying to extract that from the series indicates a failure to understand what this series is about and the D6 is their entirety represent that failure on the part of a portion of the audience and the developer listening to them.

I would say those people are on to something.

There's one user on this site who is a massive Eggman fan and utterly despised whenever he was upstaged as the main villain before.

To a lot of people off this site like you said, that's considered "taboo" and pretty much laud how classic cast need to be protected. Look how much praise Lost World gets by a few people here because it "focuses on the main characters for once" (I guess anyone that came after 1994 doesn't count towards that)

But I've noticed there was this growing resentment towards characters like Shadow, Blaze and Silver for "stealing the spotlight" away from the characters that "deserved" it more and that largely contributed to the shitty friends argument.

[DabigRG]

4 hours ago, StaticMania said:

This wouldn't be a problem if the villains were actually recurring and weren't so...generically evil and/or mindless that they literally need to be killed off.

Or overpowered. Don't forget overpowered.

8 hours ago, DryLagoon said:

Oh yeah I do agree that the Adventure era had some repeated themes.

That applied to more than the Adventure and early Modern era, its just that a lot of the more persasive trends were housed there.

8 hours ago, DryLagoon said:

I'm not saying it should always be Eggman and some giant monster trying to destroy the world. I can't help but miss when they were tied into existing lore or new lore. (Chaos being tied into Echidna history and Biolizard being tied into Gerald/G.U.N. events)

Yet another weakness of the Zeti is that they honestly could've been both, but barely even have the latter.

8 hours ago, DryLagoon said:

One of my favorite elements of SA1 is the gradual build up of Chaos. Right from the opening you're shown what it will become and it's so exciting and tense wondering how this humandoid blob turns into a giant water lizard. Even if space is a bigger scale, getting to know Station Square and it's (admittedly small) residents gives it more impact. While repeated boss battles did get annoying, seeing Chaos change each time Eggman got an emerald made stopping him feel all the more urgent.

It is interesting how that game and to a lesser extent Heroes basically gives you goal of the conflict right away.

8 hours ago, DryLagoon said:

In concept it does, but Forces had a lot of past villains in it (even if not really them) too. An idea will only go so far with bad execution. (I still wanted a Chaos boss battle too) I think it's best to give it awhile before we get another large scale team up. (meaning more than 5 at a time)

Or practically no execution in that case.

Yeah, that was honestly the most interesting thing about Forces beyond the Avatar and arguably the Phantom Ruby. But it was all just an illusion, despite the choices not really necessitating that.

8 hours ago, DryLagoon said:

That's what I liked about it. Not everyone liked every idea, but I do miss the experiments. Everyone joked about Sonic having a sword but the story for that game was interesting to me. I think if the game play was more consistent the story changes wouldn't bother as much.

I'm a bit conflicted about it. I understand why they wouldn't want to add too much to Eggman. At the same time I wouldn't have thought I'd want Gerald or Maria before SA2. Maybe if it was a temporary team up it wouldn't go against that? I'm unsure about it. Then again Eggman can still interact with others without being friends with them like Sara in the OVA or like in the movie recently.

It is food for thought.

[DabigRG]

7 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Really? The argument seemed like a bad attempt at a side plot at best. Lost World at least I suppose was TRYING to be character driven, and having the villains not only serve as a threat but actually indirectly pivot some emotional hardships for the heroes by the predicament they caused, just the execution wasn't really all that competent.

Ultimately the story should still have focus on its main characters. Lost World, as sad as it is, is one of few games that focused on the main group as characters, rather than being mostly retooled to befit some new ones stealing the show

Essentially.

The main focus was dealing with the Deadly Six and shutting down the Extractor. 

7 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I question whether previous villain offer more just because they are more central focus (if they really are, most of them are barely entities until they double cross Eggman).

That's kinda where I'm at with Erazor, admittedly. 

7 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

(Next Gen was largely revolved around the development of Silver and Elise because of Iblis/Mephiles for example, with Sonic and Eggman practically shoehorned in to just do their usual skit, ultimately Iblis was not even a passive attempt to build on the established Sonic universe, just morph it unnaturally according a passing fad).

It also had Shadow and the rest of Team Dark basically affirming their character development by actually doing things to investigate and stop the real problem in spite of the personal issue.

7 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I don't think the Deadly Six are the best examples, but I think they are step in the right direction, if a subtle and still very flawed one. They can refine it for another villain. Let's say they try another echidna villain that ties to Knuckles' past (so long as Penders doesn't sue again :P) or a more cerebral and manipulative villain that manipulates Sonic and the others' scruples or flaws to develop on them (even something low scale like a lot of the Boom villains could be effective).

This.

Even if the Deadly Six aren't gonna get much improvement, SonicTeam can take what was actually wrong and build off of what they were going for with them.

7 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

It's maybe also why many think Sonic's RIVALS do a better job taking this role to task, though the downside is pretty much all of them turn good after their first appearance.

I'm sure that's largely because, unlike most of the actual villains, the rivals are often played up for all they're [supposedly] worth. The success of the Knuckles and Metal likely influenced that as well.

The rivals are almost always deuteragonists and playable characters in their own right, so a sizeable chunk of the story and presentation is always dedicated to explaining who they are as well as selling what they're about, what they can do, and where Sonic comes in on that. Which is probably why they tend to turn good or at least end up on good terms with him--you're supposed to be getting behind them and maybe even be game for seeing them come back again.

The villains, including the Zeti themselves collectively speaking, seldom get this level of attention unless they follow suit with turning good or at least being tragic. Which they almost never are, including Eggman. 

[DryLagoon]

5 hours ago, StaticMania said:

This wouldn't be a problem if the villains were actually recurring and weren't so...generically evil and/or mindless that they literally need to be killed off.

I find it funny out of all the villains they could pick to return, it's the D6. Then again I guess with most of them dead it'd require messing around to bring them back (like in Forces). I wouldn't say all of them were mindless, but more the mindset back then was while the plot details itself would carry over, the villains that weren't Classic like Eggman and Metal wouldn't. Even Shadow was originally going to be so until he was so popular they forced him back. Sometimes one story is all you can get out of some characters. Even if someone like Chaos came back, we already seen what it can do in Adventure. Unless they had some brand new forms with a different object of the week, it wouldn't be that interesting.

I think it kind of makes sense. It would be nice to have some more repeat villains (I include Infinite as this), but it's kind of like arcs in anime (or professors in Harry Potter). While you have some big ones here and there that repeat, many will be one offs. Considering Sonic likes to travel around it makes sense we'd not see them again unless they follow him like Eggman. I agree some more villains who could actually talk would help.

I do get a bit confused at times what the fandom wants, but it's only natural. I find in general that Classic fans prefer less plot and simple villains, while post Classic want more plot and better villains. I think someone in the middle could be interesting, think like Bean who started as a trickster throwing bombs.

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Villains have chaos, Neo Metal Sonic, and Project SHADOW with is deliberate allusions to Echidna culture and ties to the Robotnik family tie in more deliberately to the series lore than anything the Deadly Six do. The most praise you can give them in this regard is that they resemble concept art from an aesthetic that the series abandoned before the first game even released. 

I have to agree that it would be limiting to always link in detail. At some point something was brand new. I think as long as they attempt to make it work, then it's fine. Maybe if Shadow looked more like a alien instead of a hedgehog I'd agree with their points that it's jarring. (I was never a fan of Black Doom to begin with though)

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

There's one user on this site who is a massive Eggman fan and utterly despised whenever he was upstaged as the main villain before.

To a lot of people off this site like you said, that's considered "taboo" and pretty much laud how classic cast need to be protected. Look how much praise Lost World gets by a few people here because it "focuses on the main characters for once" (I guess anyone that came after 1994 doesn't count towards that)

But I've noticed there was this growing resentment towards characters like Shadow, Blaze and Silver for "stealing the spotlight" away from the characters that "deserved" it more and that largely contributed to the shitty friends argument.

That's what I mean though. In the past we had main titles and spin off titles. I don't see anyone complaining Eggman wasn't in Tails spin offs. But now we only get a main title every few years. I love Eggman too, but variety helps make the series feel more fresh and Sonic's world feel bigger. Batman would get boring quicker if every story was just him and Joker. If anything Eggman has gotten more spotlight than Tails and Knuckles last decade. Sonic will always travel around so I think it's natural sometimes Tails and Knuckles will have other things they want to do. I do agree they are all important, but considering how they've done Tails lately that's way more shameful than leaving him out. Seeing Tails grow was so encouraging, just for them to revert him to cowering around. His tech went from making him feel powerful and unique and a foil to Eggman, to just the tech guy for Sonic. Knuckles has also been made way more stupid than he was before.

Can you blame younger fans for finding the newer characters more interesting at this point? Also kind of ironic considering Silver and Blaze also haven't been relevant outside of spin offs. Shadow I can understand though. They need to save him for when he can actually contribute instead of forcing him into stuff. Still not a fan of the mandates for him either. Guidelines is one thing, but it's no wonder they struggle when they aren't allowed to write him like he used to be. Blaze has a very loyal fan base despite her lack of recent appearances. I remember looking at how popular she was in fan art back when Rush came out. I almost forgot how important she was because she had been missing in action so long.

But yeah if they want us to care about new villains, giving more screen time does help.

[E-122-Psi]

The reason I kinda begrudge linking the Shadow cast herd as 'main characters' is that they were introduced when this problem in formula started to intensify, and to almost replace the initial group as more compatible and dynamic main cast. The SA2 - Next Gen era were when Sonic's 'identity crisis' started to come full throttle and Sonic himself started to slowly become a squeaky clean bit player against the far more primary feud between 'new edgier hero' vs 'bigger more satanic villain' with their premise being increasingly less tied to the original Sonic staples. I mean they did bother with key ties at first like the Robotnik family, but the fact the premise is so well distanced from what the series usually is makes it feel like they were tacked on as an afterthought, and like these bad guys and their story lore could have easily tweaked for another darker franchise. It's not much different from how the Penders era comics slowly downplayed the Sonic cast and lore from the games to focus on his own 'better' backdrop and heroes and villains, it's slowly becoming less about developing Sonic's world and more changing it for this 'cooler' one.

Now I definitely understand people's qualms with the Yetis, they're not well developed, they're more or less just the bassline for what I think could be developed into a better more relevant Sonic villain, namely because their presence at least enforced a more character driven role for the initial staple cast instead of needing their new backdrop and good guys. They have a more even handed and petty rivalry with Eggman instead of just being the more sinister villain that usurps his role as the 'real' bad guy, they are savvy enough to target Sonic's weak points like his cocky recklessness enough that he starts to show visible cracks under pressure for once, while still not being infallible and omnipotent enough to stonewall his own characteristics like his dry wit and Tails' cunning. The whole feud is an indirect dilemma caused more by being made to team up with Eggman, but the Yeti still caused this to happen. Actual two way interaction occurs a lot in this game. Sure EXECUTION is pretty mediocre, but I still think the potential is demonstrated, they just have to take these key points and iron them out, if a great deal.

What's more they can still work within the 'classic' dynamics of Sonic's world, they don't need a darker or more photo realistic backdrop. People can say this is me being conservative and 'play it safe' but ultimately I LIKE light hearted Sonic and don't believe having that and still some degree of tension and depth are mutually exclusive things (a lot of things Lost Worlds TRIED storywise Boom improved and capitalised on for example, and that was even MORE zany). To make your comparison with Mario, it's generally only main games that keep the cast one note, many spin offs (especially the RPGs) are consistent with the original lore and cartoony aesthetics of the main series but still are considered to have a fair amount of depth and entertainment value, with the villains being one of the praised elements.