Anyone else bored of Eggman being the villain? Also the series should go back to basics!

[DryLagoon]

5 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

The reason I kinda begrudge linking the Shadow cast herd as 'main characters' is that they were introduced when this problem in formula started to intensify. The SA2 - Next Gen era were when Sonic's 'identity crisis' started to come full throttle and Sonic started to slowly become a squeaky clean bit player against the far more primary feud between 'new edgier hero' vs 'bigger more satanic villain' with their premise being increasingly less tied to the original Sonic staples. I mean they did bother with key ties at first like the Robotnik family, but the fact the premise is so well distanced from what the series usually is makes it feel like they were tacked on as an afterthought, and like these bad guys and their story lore could have easily tweaked for another darker franchise. It's not much different from how the Penders era comics slowly downplayed the Sonic cast and lore from the games to focus on his own 'better' backdrop and heroes and villains, it's slowly becoming less about developing Sonic's world and more changing it for this 'cooler' one.

Now I definitely understand people's qualms with the Yetis, they're not well developed, they're more or less just the bassline for what I think could be developed into a better more relevant Sonic villain, namely because their presence at least enforced a more character driven role for the initial staple cast instead of needing their new backdrop and good guys. They have a more even handed and petty rivalry with Eggman instead of just being the more sinister villain that usurps his role as the 'real' bad guy, they are genre savvy enough to target Sonic's weak points like his cocky recklessness, while still not being infallible and omnipotent enough to stonewall his own characteristics like his dry wit and Tails' cunnings. The whole feud is an indirect dilemma caused more by being made to team up with Eggman, but the Yeti still caused this to happen. Actual two way interaction occurs a lot in this game. Sure EXECUTION is pretty mediocre, but I still think the potential is demonstrated, they just have to take these key points and iron them out, if a great deal.

What's more they can still work within the 'classic' dynamics of Sonic's world, they don't need a darker or more photo realistic backdrop. People can say this is me being conservative and 'play it safe' but ultimately I LIKE light hearted Sonic and don't believe having that and still some degree of tension and depth are mutually exclusive things (a lot of things Lost Worlds TRIED storywise Boom improved and capitalised on for example, and that was even MORE zany).

The difference to me is that I've never seen Sonic as "just for kids". I honestly wonder if Classic fans look into their own era, or if they just replay the games and listen to what Generations says about what it was (including the characters being "mute"). I would find it funny if a Classic fan told me off about Adventure lore, as I feel like the reverse sometimes.

But even Sega knew giving Sonic a gun was too edgy, not that giving one to Shadow was much better. Gamma made more sense as he was an Eggman robot trained to get Sonic. I do think some of the Adventure Era stuff got too much, but I do think it's somewhat exaggerated. NIDS isn't even mentioned in game, a lot of the lore details are from fans looking into it. A kid is probably just like "wow Shadow and the lizard are so cool!" and don't think too deeply on what it means.

Even as a kid I knew the comics were way different. I think one major difference is in the games Sonic feels like an adventurer, while in the comics he's in this base with comic original characters, and against this dictator Robotnik. Forces is probably closer to this than to Adventure. I'm not saying it's bad, I just find it odd when fans insult Adventure but then praise the comics for also being different and having tons of characters.

I just don't see the point of having six of them when only a few do anything. They could have easily been a trio instead and had more development for each. Again, Silver and Blaze in 06 is somehow too much, but 6 brand new characters not being fleshed out isn't? I swear if it wasn't for the designs this would be a different conversation. I'd rather they take the good parts and make new characters than bringing these ones back.

So once again it's the view of "Classic Sonic was light hearted and whimsical", without any look into the actual designs and stuff around it. Even Sonic 1 had some pretty dark level designs, and Sonic CD had some scary stuff too. I feel like if Metal had came out today it'd be the same complaints of "this is too edgy!". If you want light hearted there's always Boom, parts of Sonic X, the Chao, some of the DiC cartoons, and so on. I think Classic had a better balance of light and edgy than it's fans give it credit for.

[DabigRG]

26 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

I find it funny out of all the villains they could pick to return, it's the D6. Then again I guess with most of them dead it'd require messing around to bring them back (like in Forces). I wouldn't say all of them were mindless, but more the mindset back then was while the plot details itself would carry over, the villains that weren't Classic like Eggman and Metal wouldn't. Even Shadow was originally going to be so until he was so popular they forced him back. Sometimes one story is all you can get out of some characters.

Truth.

That they are also manageable helps.

26 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

Even if someone like Chaos came back, we already seen what it can do in Adventure. Unless they had some brand new forms with a different object of the week, it wouldn't be that interesting.

Chaos is so interesting in that he both started a number of trends and also didn't fully fall into them. He's explicitly immortal, a heavily mutated Chao rather than an straightforward diety/monster, and was a [anti]VILLIAN that turned good without being a rival or having a bigger threat to help fight in the eleventh hour.

And there is technically precedent for him both being able to return and with more to offer as well: he was a playable character in SA2, Battle establishes that he can come back in times of great disaster to presumably protect Angel Island, and we never did see Chaos 3 or 5. Plus, Chaos 1 didn't do much in the games and there's also the question of what would happen if he used positive Chaos energy in lieu/tandem of the negative.

26 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

I think it kind of makes sense. It would be nice to have some more repeat villains (I include Infinite as this), but it's kind of like arcs in anime (or professors in Harry Potter). While you have some big ones here and there that repeat, many will be one offs. Considering Sonic likes to travel around it makes sense we'd not see them again unless they follow him like Eggman. I agree some more villains who could actually talk would help.

Very much.

26 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

I do get a bit confused at times what the fandom wants, but it's only natural. I find in general that Classic fans prefer less plot and simple villains, while post Classic want more plot and better villains.

Well that is just kinda how the two worked, given the limitations and advances with the times.

26 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

I think someone in the middle could be interesting, think like Bean who started as a trickster throwing bombs.

Well that's the funny thing--Bean and Bark evidently weren't meant to be overt antagonists originally. Otherwise, they'd probably deviate from the general Mobian design a little more. 

26 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

But yeah if they want us to care about new villains, giving more screen time does help.

Decent motivation and background would also be a boon.

1 hour ago, DryLagoon said:

I find it funny out of all the villains they could pick to return, it's the D6. Then again I guess with most of them dead it'd require messing around to bring them back (like in Forces). I wouldn't say all of them were mindless, but more the mindset back then was while the plot details itself would carry over, the villains that weren't Classic like Eggman and Metal wouldn't. Even Shadow was originally going to be so until he was so popular they forced him back. Sometimes one story is all you can get out of some characters.

Truth.

That they are also manageable helps.

Quote

Even if someone like Chaos came back, we already seen what it can do in Adventure. Unless they had some brand new forms with a different object of the week, it wouldn't be that interesting.

Chaos is so interesting in that he both started a number of trends and also didn't fully fall into them. He's explicitly immortal, a heavily mutated Chao rather than an straightforward diety/monster, and was a [anti]VILLIAN that turned good without being a rival or having a bigger threat to help fight in the eleventh hour.

And there is technically precedent for him both being able to return and with more to offer as well: he was a playable character in SA2, Battle establishes that he can come back in times of great disaster to presumably protect Angel Island, and we never did see Chaos 3 or 5. Plus, Chaos 1 didn't do much in the games and there's also the question of what would happen if he used positive Chaos energy in lieu/tandem of the negative.

Quote

I think it kind of makes sense. It would be nice to have some more repeat villains (I include Infinite as this), but it's kind of like arcs in anime (or professors in Harry Potter). While you have some big ones here and there that repeat, many will be one offs. Considering Sonic likes to travel around it makes sense we'd not see them again unless they follow him like Eggman. I agree some more villains who could actually talk would help.

Very much.

Quote

I do get a bit confused at times what the fandom wants, but it's only natural. I find in general that Classic fans prefer less plot and simple villains, while post Classic want more plot and better villains.

Well that is just kinda how the two worked, given the limitations and advances with the times.

Quote

I think someone in the middle could be interesting, think like Bean who started as a trickster throwing bombs.

Well that's the funny thing--Bean and Bark evidently weren't meant to be overt antagonists originally. Otherwise, they'd probably deviate from the general Mobian design a little more. 

Quote

But yeah if they want us to care about new villains, giving more screen time does help.

Decent motivation and background would also be a boon.

[E-122-Psi]

49 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

The difference to me is that I've never seen Sonic as "just for kids". I honestly wonder if Classic fans look into their own era, or if they just replay the games and listen to what Generations says about what it was (including the characters being "mute"). I would find it funny if a Classic fan told me off about Adventure lore, as I feel like the reverse sometimes.

But even Sega knew giving Sonic a gun was too edgy, not that giving one to Shadow was much better. Gamma made more sense as he was an Eggman robot trained to get Sonic. I do think some of the Adventure Era stuff got too much, but I do think it's somewhat exaggerated. NIDS isn't even mentioned in game, a lot of the lore details are from fans looking into it. A kid is probably just like "wow Shadow and the lizard are so cool!" and don't think too deeply on what it means.

Even as a kid I knew the comics were way different. I think one major difference is in the games Sonic feels like an adventurer, while in the comics he's in this base with comic original characters, and against this dictator Robotnik. Forces is probably closer to this than to Adventure. I'm not saying it's bad, I just find it odd when fans insult Adventure but then praise the comics for also being different and having tons of characters.

I just don't see the point of having six of them when only a few do anything. They could have easily been a trio instead and had more development for each. Again, Silver and Blaze in 06 is somehow too much, but 6 brand new characters not being fleshed out isn't? I swear if it wasn't for the designs this would be a different conversation. I'd rather they take the good parts and make new characters than bringing these ones back.

So once again it's the view of "Classic Sonic was light hearted and whimsical", without any look into the actual designs and stuff around it. Even Sonic 1 had some pretty dark level designs, and Sonic CD had some scary stuff too. I feel like if Metal had came out today it'd be the same complaints of "this is too edgy!". If you want light hearted there's always Boom, parts of Sonic X, the Chao, some of the DiC cartoons, and so on. I think Classic had a better balance of light and edgy than it's fans give it credit for.

I consider the D6 being multiple characters being a gimmick similar to the Koopalings, in that they're meant to be a kooky gang primarily. As said I definitely agree they're undercooked, though a gang of misfit villains is still a potentially interesting dynamic. The reason new characters otherwise are complained about is often because they take the role of new MAIN characters, and a whole gang of heroes are harder to maintain without inputting some sort of reasonable dynamic to make it all work (villains are too as evidenced with some games, but they TRIED not to make Eggman redundant with Lost Worlds). Next Gen got ridiculous with its roulette of hero characters with some of them not even having a place in there and others completely usurping Sonic in importance, that's what exacerbated the new character outlook, not having them altogether. Same for them just going for the old 'newer eviller bad guy swats Eggman out of the picture' formula each and every time.

And classic Sonic may have had dark elements, but asthetically and tonally it was still consistent. We got dark cartoony industries and implications of Eggman's dystopia, but we never got photo realistic gritty towns, corrupt governments that get away with genocide, a cheap shock value token main character death every title, and a demi god monster villain that feels more at home in an adult anime sci fi, etc. There was some sort of focus on building a consistent world instead of aiming for all the cheap cliche 'dark' elements that often aren't even redesigned to work with Sonic.

Light hearted is not that linear and one note. It's like how something like Winnie the Pooh can be light hearted but still have plots with weight and drama without converting the universe into a dark gritty 'epic' or soap opera.

This is why a villain who works within the cartoony premise and yet is still somewhat a threat and can enforce some sort of dynamic with the original elements of the series has plenty potential. AGAIN, I'm not saying the D6 are the ideal and best developed approach to such a villain AT ALL but I think they shown the basic credentials.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

One could say the D6 look like they aesthetically belong in Pokémon than Sonic, so that doesn’t give them much of a point in consistency either.

[E-122-Psi]

4 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

One could say the D6 look like they aesthetically belong in Pokémon than Sonic, so that doesn’t give them much of a point in consistency either.

I'm sort of mixed on that front. They're not that consistent with the main cast, but that's because the moulds for the main characters have been so restrictive in the past, barely anyone deviates from Sonic's proportions and core design besides the odd exception like Eggman and Big the Cat. As said the D6 look a reasonable amount like the conceptual baddies for Sonic 1, who still looked in tone with Sonic's design style. They're still multi coloured cartoony creatures that borrow some key design aesthetics like the rubberhose proportions.

[Kuzu]

This feels like a Boomer vs. Millennial debate applied to Sonic...

 

In any case, most of the complaints about the new cast "replacing" the older ones are mostly from classic fans, who can't stand anyone else being in the spotlight for too long if they came after the year 1994. I don't mean to sound derogatory when I say that, but that's what it honestly feels like. There's some level of cognitive dissonance because characters like Shadow actively betray the views and aesthetics people had built up for the series in the older days, and unconsciously reject them over it. 

I do feel that's really unfair to those elements however, because characters like Shadow are WAY more popular than the Deadly Six, because they actually bothered to flesh out his character and develop his story so the audience would give a shit about him. Yes, that meant he had to at times be at the center of attention in order for that to happen, but there's literally only but so much focus that can go around with a cast as large as this one, some characters will fall by the wayside. 

So no, I'm not going to give credit to the Deadly Six simply because they're inoffensive and don't betray the expectations of a group of fans from over three decades ago, meanwhile characters that are well may fleshed out have to be pushed to the side because they don't "deserve" it, feels like bullshit to me. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

12 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I'm sort of mixed on that front. They're not that consistent with the main cast, but that's because the moulds for the main characters have so restrictive in the past, barely anyone deviates from Sonic's proportions and core design besides the odd exception like Eggman and Big the Cat. As said the D6 look a reasonable amount like the conceptual baddies for Sonic 1, who still looked in tone with Sonic's design style. They're still multi coloured cartoony creatures that borrow some key design aesthetics like the rubberhose proportions.

Define “reasonable,” because the conceptual designs could be considered too outlandish even for Sonic, hence why they had to touch things up to be consistent in the first place.

Part of why the D6 aren’t all that liked is because people find them outlandish enough to belong in a whole different franchise themselves. So they don’t really get a pass for scraping the bare minimum.

10 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

This feels like a Boomer vs. Millennial debate applied to Sonic...

 

In any case, most of the complaints about the new cast "replacing" the older ones are mostly from classic fans, who can't stand anyone else being in the spotlight for too long if they came after the year 1994. I don't mean to sound derogatory when I say that, but that's what it honestly feels like. There's some level of cognitive dissonance because characters like Shadow actively betray the views and aesthetics people had built up for the series in the older days, and unconsciously reject them over it.

I’d argue how “unconsciously” they reject them, because they seem to have little problem with those views and aesthetics when they were applied to SA1 which, despite what they’ll have you believe, was what defined and influenced most of everything that came after it until Unleashed or Colors.

[Kuzu]

I can at least give the Deadly Six the benefit of the doubt in terms of design, because they're extraterrestrials; so on a conceptual level it does make sense that their designs would be alien to the standard Sonic character design. The thing is, none of that is ever used as a way of establishing them. They just show up with little to no-fanfare and are just meant to be accepted as they are just because. And fine, you can argue that they don't NEED to be established, but that would have done a hell of a lot more at actually making them feel important. 

By comparison, Shadow's similarities to Sonic is an actual plot point in-universe; you can argue that they actually look nothing alike all you want, but they're similar enough and does a good job of establishing their rivalry by having Shadow unintentionally frame Sonic. 

 

The Deadly Six aren't popular because there's nothing there to actually like; the only praise I see given them isn't for their actual character or personality, but because they don't steal attention away from the "main characters", which sounds like faint praise at best. What does it actually say about them when all you can praise is the fact that they're so inoffensive that they don't matter?

17 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

 

I’d argue how “unconsciously” they reject them, because they seem to have little problem with those views and aesthetics when they were applied to SA1 which, despite what they’ll have you believe, was what defined and influenced most of everything that came after it until Unleashed or Colors.

Because as most say, Adventure was the closest to the classic aesthetic in 3D games; Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles are the most important characters (and have the most levels to boot) while Amy, Big, and Gamma are generally the elements people find either indifferent or actively hate in the case of Big. Sonic Adventure 2 had the biggest cast shake up to that point by introducing Shadow; who was Sonic's most important adversary more so than Eggman, but actively had Shadow be the one pulling everyone's strings an started the trend of Eggman being upstaged. 

This is why Shadow was so divisive, because he was the first character to shake up the old status quo; he took over as Sonic's main rival from Knuckles, and he usurped Eggman's role as the main villain, and Sonic considered him his most important opponent in the entire game. 

[Diogenes]

If we've accepted Chaos, the Black Arms, Iblis and its spawn, and Dark Gaia and its minions as part of the series, I don't see why there should be any concern with the D6's designs fitting in.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

28 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The Deadly Six aren't popular because there's nothing there to actually like; the only praise I see given them isn't for their actual character or personality, but because they don't steal attention away from the "main characters", which sounds like faint praise at best. What does it actually say about them when all you can praise is the fact that they're so inoffensive that they don't matter?

That they’re forgettable at best, and pointless at worst.

Not that I believe that—in spite of my distaste of them, I think the D6 can do well when you actually let them shine and develop them more.

Quote

Because as most say, Adventure was the closest to the classic aesthetic in 3D games; Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles are the most important characters (and have the most levels to boot) while Amy, Big, and Gamma are generally the elements people find either indifferent or actively hate in the case of Big. Sonic Adventure 2 had the biggest cast shake up to that point by introducing Shadow; who was Sonic's most important adversary more so than Eggman, but actively had Shadow be the one pulling everyone's strings an started the trend of Eggman being upstaged. 

This is why Shadow was so divisive, because he was the first character to shake up the old status quo; he took over as Sonic's main rival from Knuckles, and he usurped Eggman's role as the main villain, and Sonic considered him his most important opponent in the entire game. 

Except that wasn’t considered the case until Shadow’s own game onward, which was the point he was largely considered divisive.

Prior to that point he wasn’t seen any different. Neither were the aesthetics of SA2, which in spite of its subtle differences in things like lighting are built upon the same style as its predecessor that it was sequelized from—I mean, you can’t really expect one to say Death Chamber is that aesthetically out of place from Lost World without raising an eyebrow, or the likes of White Forest being that out of place compared to Mystic Ruins’ forest section, or the Final Egg from the ARK levels, City Escape from Speed Highway...I can seriously go on. Aesthetically speaking, SA2 doesn’t deviate any further than SA1 does—I mean, why else would it be called its sequel and not a whole different title like Heroes?

Never mind how SA1 was actually the first game that drastically shook things up narratively by introducing Chaos and the things he would become later—does one really think “Sonic Character” when one witnesses this:

For the first time? Because remembering my thoughts as a kid playing SA1, my first reaction was “that’s different” when I first witnessed Chaos, far more than when I first saw Shadow. Yet this actually doesn’t get commented on being out of place compared to everything afterwards.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, DryLagoon said:

I just don't see the point of having six of them when only a few do anything. They could have easily been a trio instead and had more development for each. Again, Silver and Blaze in 06 is somehow too much, but 6 brand new characters not being fleshed out isn't? I swear if it wasn't for the designs this would be a different conversation. I'd rather they take the good parts and make new characters than bringing these ones back.

 

 

You're talking about the Zeti here, right?

1 hour ago, DryLagoon said:

 I feel like if Metal had came out today it'd be the same complaints of "this is too edgy!". If you want light hearted there's always Boom, parts of Sonic X, the Chao, some of the DiC cartoons, and so on. I think Classic had a better balance of light and edgy than it's fans give it credit for.

Yeah, pretty much.

[Kuzu]

@Diogenes I'd argue that those elements fit in with what Modern Sonic was trying to be at that point in time, as opposed to what it currently is which is why the Deadly Six aren't as accepted. 

[E-122-Psi]

Shadow was controversial because after a while, the franchise started to get retooled to befit him. Despite adding new locations and lore, Knuckles and Blaze's inclusion did not alter how the Sonic universe was depicted the same way the Shadow era did. Sure it's a bit of a 'franchise original sin' given SA1 did start making similar alterations and SA2 at least still had SOME ties to original cast (though still questionable, like is it ever explained WHY Shadow is Sonic's twin?), but it is evident that to make Shadow's story and role work they had to completely redesign the universe to work around him, not the other way round. 

Again I don't think the D6 are well handled, and I see why Shadow is appealing to many, but here's the thing, in a case of keeping with the initial aesthetics and style of the original games or having some degree of depth, CAN'T WE HAVE BOTH? I just don't really buy into the theories that wanting a light hearted universe is being stubborn and conservative, that either because the old games had moderated semblances of darkness they were ALWAYS like this, or that the retools made were 'necessary evils' to develop the series out of being just a silly little kids franchise. Sonic had a style and identity for a long time and people liked the characters and world. Sure people liked the alternative medias as well, but that's what they were, alternative takes.

I generally feel one of the best elements of the later Archie comics were the villains for example, since not only did they have good characterisations and by that point got decent redesigns to look uniform without losing their uniqueness, but they had decent character dynamics and relevancy to the main SEGA cast. The echidna baddies were obviously tied to Knuckles, guys like Naugus and Mogol manipulated and brought question to Sonic's position with the public, Team Hooligan were....hilarious and usually had funny banter with the heroes. I also have a soft spot for some of the Boom villains since while more mundane, they tended to have a good chemistry with the good guys and often played on their personality traits, even its bungling Eggman was upgraded to be a manipulator of pretty much all their character defects, which made their personalities feel more pivotal to the story.

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If we've accepted Chaos, the Black Arms, Iblis and its spawn, and Dark Gaia and its minions as part of the series, I don't see why there should be any concern with the D6's designs fitting in.

And I willingly accept their designs. The character work is just piss poor

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

corrupt governments that get away with genocide,

 

Genocide? What game did I miss?

54 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

One could say the D6 look like they aesthetically belong in Pokémon than Sonic, so that doesn’t give them much of a point in consistency either.

Zavok does look a lot like the wrestling tiger, humorously enough.

So do the Chao though, which kinda makes more sense admittedly.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

@Diogenes I'd argue that those elements fit in with what Modern Sonic was trying to be at that point in time, as opposed to what it currently is which is why the Deadly Six aren't as accepted. 

How's there any difference? The Adventure-'06 era does its own thing, different from the classic games, the Colors-Forces era does its own thing, different from the Adventure era. If it justifies one it should justify both.

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

That they’re forgettable at best, and pointless at worst.

Not that I believe that—in spite of my distaste of them, I think the D6 can do well when you actually let them shine and develop them more.

Except that wasn’t considered the case until Shadow’s own game onward, which was the point he was largely considered divisive.

Prior to that point he wasn’t seen any different. Neither were the aesthetics of SA2, which in spite of its subtle differences in things like lighting are built upon the same style as its predecessor that it was sequelized from—I mean, you can’t really expect one to say Death Chamber is that aesthetically out of place from Lost World without raising an eyebrow, or the likes of White Forest being that out of place compared to Mystic Ruins’ forest section, or the Final Egg from the ARK levels, City Escape from Speed Highway...I can seriously go on.

Never mind how SA1 was actually the first game that drastically shook things up narratively by introducing Chaos and the things he would become later—does one really think “Sonic Character” when one witnesses this:

For the first time? Because remembering my thoughts as a kid playing SA1, my first reaction was “that’s different” when I first witnessed Chaos, far more than when I first saw Shadow. Yet this actually doesn’t get commented on being out of place compared to everything afterwards.

It may have reached a fever point by the time his game came out, but Shadow was a very divisive character from the getgo. And Adventure 2 was VERY aesthetically different from it's predecessors. Every enemy was a generic GUN robot as opposed to the classic badniks (outside of the Eggman pyramid levels) and most levels went for a semi-photo realistic look based on real world locations. Even Sonic's classic jump sound effect was changed to a more realistic sounding "swish" sound.

 

Chaos definitely was a departure, but he didn't take center stage until the last leg of the game. Up until that point, Eggman is the one running the show. Shadow's presence was established from his release and Sonic is focused on him for the remainder of the game. 

[Wraith]

6 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

Again I don't think the D6 are well handled, and I see why Shadow is appealing to many, but here's the thing, in a case of keeping with the initial aesthetics and style of the original games or having some degree of depth, CAN'T WE HAVE BOTH? I just don't really buy into the theories that either because the old games had moderated semblances of darkness they were ALWAYS like this, or that the retools made were 'necessary evils' to develop the series out of being just a silly little kids franchise. Sonic had a style and identity for a long time and people liked the characters and world. Sure people liked the alternative medias as well, but that's what they were, alternative takes.

My sticking point with this is that Sonic games should be allowed to have their own artistic nuances that suit the work as a whole.  Sonic Adventure 2 doesn't look like Sonic CD for specific, calculated reasons that service it's tone and atmosphere.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

18 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Shadow was controversial because after a while, the franchise started to get retooled to befit him. Despite adding new locations and lore, Knuckles and Blaze's inclusion did not alter how the Sonic universe was depicted the same way the Shadow era did. Sure it's a bit of a 'franchise original sin' given SA1 did start making similar alterations and SA2 at least still had SOME ties to original cast (though still questionable, like is it ever explained WHY Shadow is Sonic's twin?), but it is evident that to make Shadow's story and role work they had to completely redesign the universe to work around him, not the other way round. 
 

Except, no they did not have to redesign the universe to work around him, nor did they redesign it when they first introduced him. They did the exact same thing with Shadow as they did with Knuckles and ablaze when he was brought to the audience, everything afterwards was nothing more than a MASSIVE narrative fumble that was a series was continuity snarl that affected parts of the cast.

14 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It may have reached a fever point by the time his game came out, but Shadow was a very divisive character from the getgo. And Adventure 2 was VERY aesthetically different from it's predecessors. Every enemy was a generic GUN robot as opposed to the classic badniks (outside of the Eggman pyramid levels) and most levels went for a semi-photo realistic look based on real world locations.
 

So was SA1.

And people really need to stop ignoring that fact or pretending otherwise, because SA2 is built off the same style as SA1.

And given the marketing and praise that came with SA2 release, I’d love to see where in 1998 Shadow‘s debut started making things divisive, because I know for a fact it started at 2003 during Heroes at the earliest when questions about his survival were up in the air.

Quote

Even Sonic's classic jump sound effect was changed to a more realistic sounding "swish" sound.

I don’t see why that’s a major factor.

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Chaos definitely was a departure, but he didn't take center stage until the last leg of the game. Up until that point, Eggman is the one running the show. Shadow's presence was established from his release and Sonic is focused on him for the remainder of the game. 
 

Except Sonic and Shadow isn’t the only focal character there—there’s four other characters which have a major impact on the game, and just like Chaos, Shadow doesn’t take more of spotlight until literally the last story. Eggman’s still in charge of the Dark story much like was as the villain of SA1 until Chaos takes control.

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

How's there any difference? The Adventure-'06 era does its own thing, different from the classic games, the Colors-Forces era does its own thing, different from the Adventure era. If it justifies one it should justify both.

Because the Adventure-06 era is what defined the 3D games and is specifically tied to Modern Sonic particularly, just as how the stuff from 1991 to 1997 is mostly defined by Classic Sonic. But the thing is, the Colors-Forces era still uses the Modern designs and personalities, but puts them next to aesthetics that it's never had before. 

This is why Sonic's design was changed to begin with, because Sega wanted a new look to fit into the world they were crafting with Adventure. They didn't do that with Colors onward, so that's why there was this awkward feeling when Lost World came out because of drastically it stood out from what came before.  

[E-122-Psi]

I'm sorry but I still feel there's a DRASTIC tonal and backdrop change from the old games and a corrupt photo realistic human military literally gunning down a civilisation of innocent people to cover up their dangerous space mutant. That is what Shadow, Gerald and the Biolizard brought.

Sure there's devastation implied with Lost World's plot as well, but it as least somewhat translated to work within the original realms of the series.

[Kuzu]

Just now, E-122-Psi said:

I'm sorry but I still feel there's a DRASTIC tonal and backdrop change from the old games and a corrupt human military gunning down a civilisation of innocent people to cover up their dangerous space mutant.

As Wraith said, that was intentional to service the narrative they were going for with Sonic Adventure 2. That story would not work had they went with the classic aesthetic. 

[DabigRG]

53 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I'm sort of mixed on that front. They're not that consistent with the main cast, but that's because the moulds for the main characters have been so restrictive in the past, barely anyone deviates from Sonic's proportions and core design besides the odd exception like Eggman and Big the Cat. As said the D6 look a reasonable amount like the conceptual baddies for Sonic 1, who still looked in tone with Sonic's design style. They're still multi coloured cartoony creatures that borrow some key design aesthetics like the rubberhose proportions.

49 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Define “reasonable,” because the conceptual designs could be considered too outlandish even for Sonic, hence why they had to touch things up to be consistent in the first place.

Part of why the D6 aren’t all that liked is because people find them outlandish enough to belong in a whole different franchise themselves. So they don’t really get a pass for scraping the bare minimum.

I think another issue with them is that they are mostly very 2D designed characters who weren't that well fitted for the actual 3D graphics they were actually gonna be moving around in.

52 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

This feels like a Boomer vs. Millennial debate applied to Sonic...

Sonic Milleni when?

52 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

In any case, most of the complaints about the new cast "replacing" the older ones are mostly from classic fans, who can't stand anyone else being in the spotlight for too long if they came after the year 1994. I don't mean to sound derogatory when I say that, but that's what it honestly feels like. There's some level of cognitive dissonance because characters like Shadow actively betray the views and aesthetics people had built up for the series in the older days, and unconsciously reject them over it. 

I do feel that's really unfair to those elements however, because characters like Shadow are WAY more popular than the Deadly Six, because they actually bothered to flesh out his character and develop his story so the audience would give a shit about him. Yes, that meant he had to at times be at the center of attention in order for that to happen, but there's literally only but so much focus that can go around with a cast as large as this one, some characters will fall by the wayside. 

So no, I'm not going to give credit to the Deadly Six simply because they're inoffensive and don't betray the expectations of a group of fans from over three decades ago, meanwhile characters that are well may fleshed out have to be pushed to the side because they don't "deserve" it, feels like bullshit to me. 

 

49 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I’d argue how “unconsciously” they reject them, because they seem to have little problem with those views and aesthetics when they were applied to SA1 which, despite what they’ll have you believe, was what defined and influenced most of everything that came after it until Unleashed or Colors.

Again, I'm sure part of it is simply doing the same things too often in a row.

[Wraith]

8 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I'm sorry but I still feel there's a DRASTIC tonal and backdrop change from the old games and a corrupt photo realistic human military literally gunning down a civilisation of innocent people to cover up their dangerous space mutant. That is what Shadow, Gerald and the Biolizard brought.

Sure there's devastation implied with Lost World's plot as well, but it as least somewhat translated to work within the original realms of the series.

In a last game that came out a civilization was murdered as part of a backstory that existed since '94. We've always known humans existed in Sonic as well. A version of the military that sends giant robots after people is like, darker than the previous games but not a drastic departure. Tragedy, drama, and satire on real concepts have been this series since the early days.

[DryLagoon]

24 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Shadow was controversial because after a while, the franchise started to get retooled to befit him. Despite adding new locations and lore, Knuckles and Blaze's inclusion did not alter how the Sonic universe was depicted the same way the Shadow era did. Sure it's a bit of a 'franchise original sin' given SA1 did start making similar alterations and SA2 at least still had SOME ties to original cast (though still questionable, like is it ever explained WHY Shadow is Sonic's twin?), but it is evident that to make Shadow's story and role work they had to completely redesign the universe to work around him, not the other way round.

I think this was due to his unexpected popularity. It wouldn't be an exaggeration that at some points, Shadow was more popular than Sonic himself. When given the choice of a spin off game instead of classics like Tails or Knuckles or even another title with Eggman playable, the vocal newer fans wanted more Shadow. Even to this day despite the changes Shadow is still popular. I don't think it was right of them to warp Sonic around Shadow (I always wonder what Sonic would be like if SA2 was his only title), but at the same time they were just trying to appeal to his new audience.
Edit: I'm uncertain if it is fan theory, but if I remember correctly it's speculated that Gerald somehow looked into Echidna history. The jump from Biolizard to Shadow is said to be him seeing the two murals (one from Classic with Super Sonic, and one from Adventure with Chaos). There's also chaos energy involved, which makes sense as both Sonic and Chaos could control different sides of it.
IRL reason is they wanted a dark Sonic, but later on in the design it went from a literal Sonic but black to having quills based off of Adventure  Super Sonic.

28 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If we've accepted Chaos, the Black Arms, Iblis and its spawn, and Dark Gaia and its minions as part of the series, I don't see why there should be any concern with the D6's designs fitting in.

Considering most were one offs never to be seen again, I don't think it matters as much. Half of the time I forget about Iblis and Dark Gaia to be honest. I think if Deadly Six were just in Lost World it'd be less bothering, but seeing them return over other characters can rub some the wrong way. Like remember when Eggman Nega or Emerl were a thing?

27 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Never mind how SA1 was actually the first game that drastically shook things up narratively by introducing Chaos and the things he would become later—does one really think “Sonic Character” when one witnesses this:

For the first time? Because remembering my thoughts as a kid playing SA1, my first reaction was “that’s different” when I first witnessed Chaos, far more than when I first saw Shadow. Yet this actually doesn’t get commented on being out of place compared to everything afterwards.

It's not D6 being different that bothers me, but their designs in particular. It screams "we want to be like Mario" to me that game carried, goofy smile on box art and all. I just wish if Sonic was going to copy Mario it'd take the better elements instead of going against what it was going for before. I just find it redundant, I'd just go play Mario if I wanted Mario. SA1 might have had different story, but the Sonic parts still played like Sonic. I know it's a losing battle as the Adventure era had a ton of experimentation.

21 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

And Adventure 2 was VERY aesthetically different from it's predecessors. Every enemy was a generic GUN robot as opposed to the classic badniks (outside of the Eggman pyramid levels) and most levels went for a semi-photo realistic look based on real world locations. Even Sonic's classic jump sound effect was changed to a more realistic sounding "swish" sound.

I honestly liked that look for the game. Having G.U.N. on the hunt for Sonic and Eggman and seeing Eggman's robots in his own base was a nice touch. I'd argue SA1 also had some realistic textures for the time. It makes sense considering both were inspired by the real world. I'm not saying every game had to be like SA2 though, but I did enjoy it for what it was. I also like the Classic style too.

15 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

This is why Sonic's design was changed to begin with, because Sega wanted a new look to fit into the world they were crafting with Adventure. They didn't do that with Colors onward, so that's why there was this awkward feeling when Lost World came out because of drastically it stood out from what came before.  

Pretty much. If he had a redesign beyond changing his expression I think people would have been more understanding that this was a different Sonic. Instead you took a design intended for one idea and used it for another. It'd be like doing SA2 with Classic Sonic.