Does Sonic still have his powers and skills from the past

[Meta77]

Sega is bad at story telling. We all know that but at times what is canon and what is not. I know they wrote out the super emeralds but say for instance in SA 2. Sonic could use chaos control, and eventually learned to use it better by the end of the game. Can he still use this ability? And if so why not in any future games. (well he did in 06 but im not sure if its truly canon, though i think it is to some extent?). Does sega not allow him to use this abilities for fear its a cop out? Or do they honestly forget sometimes what Sonic can and can not do. In others he is shown to take on entire fleets of Eggman ships by himself and yet later in the case of infinite is beat by a group of non powered up illusions. Or is it better to not to have sonic have access to all these skills and feats as he would probably be to strong for anyone to actually  challenge him. Anyone Except 06 Silver. He beats everyone to death as long as you have one ring.......just one.

[Diogenes]

Probably. The only thing I could see them retconning out is Chaos Control, since it's too useful a power to ignore, but there's no sign that they have, and they deliberately brought it back for '06.

Aside from that though what "powers" has Sonic not been using? He might not spindash in a particular game or something, but that's just derived from his base abilities of going fast and spinning, two things he's never not done.

[DabigRG]

A combination of probably thinking it's a cop out and just forgetting some of it--in other words, Sonic being fast, free, and rolling tends to be the aim of his moveset.

On the Eggy Six thing though, it's worth noting he jumped right to attempting to boost into Infinite, tried to get Tails to help figure out how to handle them, and was being coordinately rushed by villains that were for the most part capable of matching or counting his moves.

[MainJP]

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

A combination of probably thinking it's a cop out and just forgetting some of it-

Might be missing something but anything in particular that they "forgot"? Outside the sneezing danger-sense.

7 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

On the Eggy Six thing though, it's worth noting he jumped right to attempting to boost into Infinite, tried to get Tails to help figure out how to handle them, and was being coordinately rushed by villains that were for the most part capable of matching or counting his moves.

This. Sonic caching a beat down is a feat for the illusions.

[DabigRG]

4 minutes ago, MainJP said:

Might be missing something but anything in particular that they "forgot"?

The wiki has a list.

Off the top of my head though, there's the Figure 8 Peel Out, Magic Hands, Soul Surge(?), and shrinking.

2 minutes ago, MainJP said:

 Outside the sneezing danger-sense.

The what?

[MainJP]

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

The wiki has a list.

I'm aware.

3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

there's the Figure 8 Peel Out

Not really a power or ability. Besides, he has that in Lost World and Mania.

4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Magic Hands, Soul Surge(?), and shrinking.

Gadget exclusive abilities. Soul Surge is just a game mechanic, isn't it?

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

The what?

 

[DabigRG]

21 minutes ago, MainJP said:

Not really a power or ability. Besides, he has that in Lost World and Mania.

 

I was gonna say it's just a visual reference, but then I remembered you can actually charge the thing.

21 minutes ago, MainJP said:

Soul Surge is just a game mechanic, isn't it?

 

I never played Secret Rings, but I thought it had something to do with an energy that exists within those book worlds.

21 minutes ago, MainJP said:

 

 

 

What kinda fuckin weird, deep cut shit is that?

Though of course it'd be in CD.

[MainJP]

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I never played Secret Rings, but I thought it had something to do with an energy that exists within those book worlds.

Wrong game, you're thinking of Black Knight. It's literally just some game mechanic that lets you do the regular ass things they already have access to on the regular like Sonic's super speed blitzes, Shadow's Chaos Powers or Blaze's pyrokinesis. It's a meter, that's all.

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

What kinda fuckin weird, deep cut shit is that?

Though of course it'd be in CD.

Like Indigo Rush pointed out, Sonic DOES wipe his nose a lot.

[Shadowlax]

9 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Probably. The only thing I could see them retconning out is Chaos Control, since it's too useful a power to ignore, but there's no sign that they have, and they deliberately brought it back for '06.

Aside from that though what "powers" has Sonic not been using? He might not spindash in a particular game or something, but that's just derived from his base abilities of going fast and spinning, two things he's never not done.

 

10 hours ago, Meta77 said:

Sega is bad at story telling. We all know that but at times what is canon and what is not. I know they wrote out the super emeralds but say for instance in SA 2. Sonic could use chaos control, and eventually learned to use it better by the end of the game. Can he still use this ability? And if so why not in any future games. (well he did in 06 but im not sure if its truly canon, though i think it is to some extent?). Does sega not allow him to use this abilities for fear its a cop out? Or do they honestly forget sometimes what Sonic can and can not do. In others he is shown to take on entire fleets of Eggman ships by himself and yet later in the case of infinite is beat by a group of non powered up illusions. Or is it better to not to have sonic have access to all these skills and feats as he would probably be to strong for anyone to actually  challenge him. Anyone Except 06 Silver. He beats everyone to death as long as you have one ring.......just one.

I think they have, maybe at one point they wanted chaos control to be more of a thing . But given the circumstances of 06 they kinda gave up on that. And in this age of characterization specializations, its just kinda become " That thing shadow does sometimes " . That said , I heard that sonic's boost is actual chaos control, which at least to me would make sense. When sonic goes super he doesn't get powers he just goes....really fast. So I dunno maybe it just manifests differently now. But on the other hand I'm not gonna give modern sonic team that much credit. So they may have just  retconned it.

 

[MetalSkulkBane]

And let's not forget how Megaman's leg wound made him unable to Slide in MM 9 and 10. Or Mario losses many moves every time he goes on 2D adventure.

Seriously this is one overthinking topic. Sonic has power of speed. Peel Out, boost, lighting dash, parkour, those are skills he has, but some games will arbitrarily lock, because shut up. In Generations you can buy Homing Attack for Classic and remove it for next stage. Do we need convoluted explanation how shop messes with his brain?
And skills like Magic Hands are artifact based. (I like to think Sonic has a house that he didn't cleaned in ages, filled with rings, upgrades, souvenirs and other junk. But maybe he lost them, or they broke, finding them isn't canon. Whatever.)

Chaos Control is harder topic, but keep in mind that Sonic used that power 4 times : twice to time travel in 06, once to fave his life  in SA2 and then to teleport ARK. So in 3 situations he had help of Shadow/Silver, last time it was do-or-die thing. Either way he needs stakes, standing still and Chaos Emerald. (Fight with Shadow doesn't count. We know Sonic won, so canonically it was Shadow spamming teleport, while Sonic just run). I'm guessing he's not that comfortable with the ability. He much prefers to rely on his speed.

And that Nose Sense... well, I think we can agree it's canonicity is still dubious, but Unleashed and Lost World proved it doesn't work so well. Maybe instead of "spider-sense", it's more of a gut feeling that he sometimes ignorese (I mean, his life is danger 22/6, it must be a background noise by now). And maybe as he grew older he doesn't sneeze anymore, just get's a little twiching in his nose, which is why he rubs it so often.

[Meta77]

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

I think they have, maybe at one point they wanted chaos control to be more of a thing . But given the circumstances of 06 they kinda gave up on that. And in this age of characterization specializations, its just kinda become " That thing shadow does sometimes " . That said , I heard that sonic's boost is actual chaos control, which at least to me would make sense. When sonic goes super he doesn't get powers he just goes....really fast. So I dunno maybe it just manifests differently now. But on the other hand I'm not gonna give modern sonic team that much credit. So they may have just  retconned it.

 

Actually Super was shown to be able to fire energy of some sort in advance 3 using eggman as the channel of that energy

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, Meta77 said:

Actually Super was shown to be able to fire energy of some sort in advance 3 using eggman as the channel of that energy

I forgot, still think my point kinda stands though. After 06 that's largely dropped and characters kinda move on 2010 forward to specialities.  But I had genuinely forgot about that. Thank you.

Also tbh super forms might be moving to the forgotten realm soon enough

[Tarnish]

I would say obviously not. Just look at rolling on the ground and spin-dash. Ever since the boost was introduced, he conviniently forgot those abilities ever existed.

[Meta77]

5 hours ago, Tarnish said:

I would say obviously not. Just look at rolling on the ground and spin-dash. Ever since the boost was introduced, he conviniently forgot those abilities ever existed.

But in the case of spin dash wasn't it shown to be an beginner level of the boost move as he got older

[MainJP]

5 hours ago, Meta77 said:

But in the case of spin dash wasn't it shown to be an beginner level of the boost move as he got older

That doesn't make sense. He still Spin Dashes in Lost World. Two completely different techniques.

I feel like this thread is conflating gameplay mechanics and in-universe abilities.

[sonic 1-derful]

I would have liked for him to have kept the figure 8/ peel out move from cd and chaos. not sure if they're canon though..

[MainJP]

1 minute ago, sonic 1-derful said:

I would have liked for him to have kept the figure 8/ peel out move from cd and chaos. not sure if they're canon though..

He has it in Lost World.

And what do you mean by canon?

[Sega DogTagz]

16 minutes ago, MainJP said:

That doesn't make sense. He still Spin Dashes in Lost World. Two completely different techniques.

He also possess both the SpinDash and the Boost in the Rush games - further showing that the two are distinct from one another. Any connection between the two is pure head-canon at best.

 

The only real ability Sonic may be currently lacking would boil down to Chaos Control - and even then we know Sonic doesn't particularly like to use that move even when he has the means to do so. Its further worth noting that in the last 2 games, Forces and Lost World, both had plots that were dismissive of the Chaos Emeralds, meaning Sonic didn't necessarily have the gems on hand to use the technique even if he wanted to. Its less that we haven't seen him use chaos control and more to do with the Emeralds themselves not being part of the story since Gens.

 

[Multikaris]

6 hours ago, Tarnish said:

I would say obviously not. Just look at rolling on the ground and spin-dash. Ever since the boost was introduced, he conviniently forgot those abilities ever existed.

Coincidentally; those abilities were already being weakened over time. When he does get them back, the spin dash has basically become an improved boost. His bounce also came back, pretty much intact.

 

Heck, Mania reinstated a lot of older abilities due to the split, even though some had been seen in the Advance games, for example. A “Dreamcast split” may mean the return of moves like the Light Speed Attack and Soul Surge. 

[Meta77]

19 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

He also possess both the SpinDash and the Boost in the Rush games - further showing that the two are distinct from one another. Any connection between the two is pure head-canon at best.

 

The only real ability Sonic may be currently lacking would boil down to Chaos Control - and even then we know Sonic doesn't particularly like to use that move even when he has the means to do so. Its further worth noting that in the last 2 games, Forces and Lost World, both had plots that were dismissive of the Chaos Emeralds, meaning Sonic didn't necessarily have the gems on hand to use the technique even if he wanted to. Its less that we haven't seen him use chaos control and more to do with the Emeralds themselves not being part of the story since Gens.

 

In that case I feel like sega gets tired of using them. Id combat this by saying let someone else go super for once. Throw a real ringer out there and let Amy. In the case of the spin dash i forgot he could use both. i was going on the ending of generations where young classic was trying to show modern he was starting to learn how to use it. Then lied to him about his future!

3 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Coincidentally; those abilities were already being weakened over time. When he does get them back, the spin dash has basically become an improved boost. His bounce also came back, pretty much intact.

 

Heck, Mania reinstated a lot of older abilities due to the split, even though some had been seen in the Advance games, for example. A “Dreamcast split” may mean the return of moves like the Light Speed Attack and Soul Surge. 

"Oh god I forgot about the Light speed dash.

[MainJP]

8 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Heck, Mania reinstated a lot of older abilities due to the split, even though some had been seen in the Advance games, for example. A “Dreamcast split” may mean the return of moves like the Light Speed Attack and Soul Surge. 

Is Heroes considered a "Dreamcast" game? Because that also had the Light Speed Attack. Simply stepping away from the Boost style could be enough to bring some of these moves into Sonic's repertoire.

Soul Surge isn't a "move".

[Sega DogTagz]

3 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

In that case I feel like sega gets tired of using them. Id combat this by saying let someone else go super for once. Throw a real ringer out there and let Amy.

Letting more characters, let alone another heggie, tap into a super form would only continue to water down its special appeal.

Sega is simply sitting on an asset to allow it to regain some if its allure back. We have deprived of a Super Sonic final boss since 2011. the next time we see it would have given Modern Sonic fans approx 10 years worth of set time. That absence is valuable to making an impact.

They aren't tired of using it, they are just rationing it out to manage expectations. Just like what happened with the monsters of the week, every single game, the super Sonic final boss needed a breather, so the Chaos Emeralds got kicked to the narrative back seat.

 

3 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

In the case of the spin dash i forgot he could use both. i was going on the ending of generations where young classic was trying to show modern he was starting to learn how to use it. Then lied to him about his future!

In a roundabout way, Sonic teaches himself the boost. Most of these base moves are just an extension of his athleticism, so there is even less wiggle room to say sonic can no longer do things that are self taught in the first place.

[DabigRG]

14 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

 

Chaos Control is harder topic, but keep in mind that Sonic used that power 4 times : twice to time travel in 06, once to fave his life  in SA2 and then to teleport ARK. So in 3 situations he had help of Shadow/Silver, last time it was do-or-die thing. Either way he needs stakes, standing still and Chaos Emerald. (Fight with Shadow doesn't count. We know Sonic won, so canonically it was Shadow spamming teleport, while Sonic just run). I'm guessing he's not that comfortable with the ability. He much prefers to rely on his speed.

He was shown to be capable of using it as long as he's near one while saving Rouge.

1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

The only real ability Sonic may be currently lacking would boil down to Chaos Control - and even then we know Sonic doesn't particularly like to use that move even when he has the means to do so. Its further worth noting that in the last 2 games, Forces and Lost World, both had plots that were dismissive of the Chaos Emeralds, meaning Sonic didn't necessarily have the gems on hand to use the technique even if he wanted to. Its less that we haven't seen him use chaos control and more to do with the Emeralds themselves not being part of the story since Gens.

 

I'd say Lost World was justified.

Forces, on other hand? Well, that game has a list of stuff it doesn't really try.

56 minutes ago, MainJP said:

Is Heroes considered a "Dreamcast" game? Because that also had the Light Speed Attack. Simply stepping away from the Boost style could be enough to bring some of these moves into Sonic's repertoire.

Soul Surge isn't a "move".

By association, yes.

Even ignoring that an inability to faithfully replicate the playstyle of the Adventure games is part of why that game was made the way it was at the time.

[Badnik Mechanic]

On 9/13/2019 at 2:16 AM, DabigRG said:

What kinda fuckin weird, deep cut shit is that?

Though of course it'd be in CD.

This is why everybody needs to subscribe and click the bell on my YouTube channel =p

 

But to address the topic. 

It's not just powers and skills, there's also some personality traits, like apparently Sonic is a keen reader, whilst we rarely see this in the games, in the wider official media we certainly do see it.

What I think happens is that... As time passes by, some people at Sega who don't directly work on the games, know and have seen that certain characters have certain powers and abilities as well as traits, they still believe these are active today, so when they get quizzed on 'how should Sonic be' they say "Well there's this... this and a this..." not knowing it's been retconned or just no longer used.

Would explain a lot of the dialogue that the statue at Tokyo Joypolis says.

[Meta77]

5 hours ago, Badnik Mechanic said:

This is why everybody needs to subscribe and click the bell on my YouTube channel =p

 

But to address the topic. 

It's not just powers and skills, there's also some personality traits, like apparently Sonic is a keen reader, whilst we rarely see this in the games, in the wider official media we certainly do see it.

What I think happens is that... As time passes by, some people at Sega who don't directly work on the games, know and have seen that certain characters have certain powers and abilities as well as traits, they still believe these are active today, so when they get quizzed on 'how should Sonic be' they say "Well there's this... this and a this..." not knowing it's been retconned or just no longer used.

Would explain a lot of the dialogue that the statue at Tokyo Joypolis says.

Wait........what does the statue say?!