Jump to content
lulzers

What if IDW made characters based on the following Archie characters?

Recommended Posts

Yeah, I already talked about something like this in the IDW Sonic megathread but I felt this warranted a dedicated thread.

So far, Dr. Finitevus got a spiritual successor in the form of Dr. Starline, and he's considered one of the best characters of the IDW comics by fans. Which had me thinking: what if they made more characters based on certain Archie characters? Especially ones that can never appear again due to the copyright fiasco with Ken Penders? Here's some that come to my mind:

Enerjak:

322?cb=20170103173150

A malevolent god whose essence was scattered throughout the Chaos Force. Throughout history, his spirit would possess echidnas with massive hubris and manifest through them.

What an IDW version could be like:

Instead of an echidna that became a god, he could be a demonic being with an appearance modeled after occult figures like Baphomet. While sharing some of Enerjak's powers like reality warping and teleportation. 

 

Mina Mongoose:

latest?cb=20170812105627

Daughter of Isabella Mongoose and the late Arthur Mongoose, Mina was one of Sonic's love interests and a famous singer on Mobius.

What an IDW version could be like:

Mostly the same role minus the romance with Sonic. She could also be more combat-capable than Mina.

 

Mammoth Mogul:

350?cb=20120319195228

Woolly mammoth who wields vast Chaos powers and is an ancient evil mastermind in the vein of Vandal Savage.

What an IDW version could be like:

Possibly an evil wizard with powerful magic and in command of a technologically advanced army. Obviously he would be a different species of animal in order to avoid triggering Penders.

 

Lien-Da:

196?cb=20161025211613

Leader of the Dark Legion, femme fatale, and longtime foe of Knuckles the Echidna. Her primary weapon is a bullwhip and a unquenchable thirst for power.

What an IDW version could be like:

This could be quite tricky to pull off. Out of all the characters created by Ken Penders, Lien-Da was among the most prominent. We've already seen how he reacts to anything even REMOTELY resembling his characters, (aside from claiming that the Nocturnus Clan from Sonic Chronicles was a ripoff of his Dark Legion, he even claimed that Rough and Tumble from IDW Sonic were ripoffs of Geoffrey St. John) I'm pretty sure having a character resembling Lien-Da would instantly make him go ballistic. So maybe they could use a different species for a Lien-Da expy. Maybe use the same type of attire and weapons but that's about it.

 

Hope Kintobor:

latest?cb=20140901103108

A young female Overlander, (descendants of humans in the Pre-Super Genesis Wave Archie Sonic universe) niece of Dr. Eggman and half-sister of his nephew Snively, Hope was unlike the rest of her kind who were hostile towards Mobians. She was also a genius in mechanical engineering and even became a member of G.U.N. later on.

What an IDW version could be like:

Aside from sharing her biggest traits and appearance, an expy of Hope would have obvious differences such as being completely unrelated to Eggman, a human instead of an Overlander, a new set of clothing, and an entirely different backstory. Possibly being orphaned at youth and then at some point meeting Sonic and his friends.

 

What do you guys think? What do you think expies of the aforementioned characters in the IDW comics would be like? Could they work?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd really prefer IDW Sonic continue making a clean break from Archie Sonic and doing its own thing rather than trying to recapture the Archie vibe with a bunch of bootleg knockoff characters. It's not like there's any shortage of characters for IDW Sonic to work with anyway, considering the sizable game cast and the new characters they've already started introducing, and they'll surely continue creating more as they need them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Starline connection is just a small thing anyway, they both happen to warp around using an item and have white fur, and then other than that he isn't really all that similar to Finitevus or Zachary (which I'm sure is intentional). Still a cool nod tho', so I guess I wouldn't say no to more of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I don't think they need to be expires, a new celebrity character who could be potentially villainous in terms of social sway is relevant to our modern trying times and would be interesting.

And a sort of villainous cult lady would be cool. She doesn't have to be explicitly be an lien da expy. However, if I am to be honest, my interest in lien da is sorta...lost potential. While the years laters arcs were 99% bad. One of the weirdest accidental good ideas that got no expansion on is lien da having some type of involvement with shadow.  Like a cult seeing an immortal time manipulating super hedgehog and having some sort of interest is kinda cool. Like usually when there are societies in sonic they are kinda like...long dead. But one that's active , and like screwing things up with out all the echidina baggage and interacting with the characters in interesting ways could be neat.

So some weirdo cult thinking shadow is the chosen one, (  and possibly a jab at his uh.. zealous fans, as I am one of them)  could be cool

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh yeah, I remember this tangent.  Yeah, it'd be cool to see some of the archetypes, dynamics, or details of other spinoff characters be given a fresh code of paint and/or be taken in a different direction.

Let's see what you've suggested thus far:

47 minutes ago, lulzers said:

 

Enerjak:

322?cb=20170103173150

A malevolent god whose essence was scattered throughout the Chaos Force. Throughout history, his spirit would possess echidnas with massive hubris and manifest through them.

What an IDW version could be like:

Instead of an echidna that became a god, he could be a demonic being with an appearance modeled after occult figures like Baphomet. While sharing some of Enerjak's powers like reality warping and teleportation. 

That might be neat, I guess. It brings to mind Nephthys, oddly enough, but obviously it's just a theme name in her case.

Enerjak was such a cool idea for a Knuckles villain that kept getting written out by how dumb the storytelling could be.

Quote

Mina Mongoose:

latest?cb=20170812105627

Daughter of Isabella Mongoose and the late Arthur Mongoose, Mina was one of Sonic's love interests and a famous singer on Mobius.

What an IDW version could be like:

Mostly the same role minus the romance with Sonic. She could also be more combat-capable than Mina.

Oh yeah, she got the most brainstorming of the previously suggested characters. Kinda have to wonder about the combat thing, though.

Quote

Mammoth Mogul:

350?cb=20120319195228

Woolly mammoth who wields vast Chaos powers and is an ancient evil mastermind in the vein of Vandal Savage.

What an IDW version could be like:

Possibly an evil wizard with powerful magic and commands a powerful and technologically advanced army. Obviously he would be a different species of animal in order to avoid triggering Penders.

.I'm realizing that crosses into both Enerjak and Naugus Twin territory. Hm.

 Also, he was created by editor Kent Taylor.

Quote

Lien-Da:

196?cb=20161025211613

Leader of the Dark Legion, femme fatale, and longtime foe of Knuckles the Echidna. Her primary weapon is a bullwhip and a unquenchable thirst for power.

What an IDW version could be like:

This could be quite tricky to pull off. Out of all the characters created by Ken Penders, Lien-Da was one of the most prominent. We've already seen how he reacts to anything even REMOTELY resembling his characters, (aside from claiming that the Nocturnus Clan from Sonic Chronicles was a ripoff of his Dark Legion, he even claimed that Rough and Tumble from IDW Sonic were ripoffs of Geoffrey St. John) I'm pretty sure having a character resembling Lien-Da would instantly make him go ballistic. So maybe they could use a different species for a Lien-Da expy. Maybe use the same type of attire and weapons but that's about it.

The thing with this one more than the others is that The Baroness such a relatively simple trope that you can really apply it. She was sorta a character unto herself, but the main two or three things people remember about her aren't.

Lien-Da wasn't really a femme fatale though: she was more in line with what I hear would be at home in Game of Thrones. And to be fair, the Nocturnus were legitimately derivative of the Knuckles comics.

Quote

Hope Kintobor:

latest?cb=20140901103108

A young female Overlander, (descendants of humans in the Pre-Super Genesis Wave Archie Sonic universe) niece of Dr. Eggman and half-sister of his nephew Snively, Hope was unlike the rest of her kind who were hostile towards Mobians. She was also a genius in mechanical engineering and even became a member of G.U.N. later on.

What an IDW version could be like:

Aside from sharing her biggest traits and appearance, an expy of Hope would have obvious differences such as being completely unrelated to Eggman, a human instead of an Overlander, a new set of clothing, and an entirely different backstory. Possibly being orphaned at youth and then at some point meeting Sonic and his friends.

 

What do you guys think? What do you think expies of the aforementioned characters in the IDW comics would be like? Could they work?

Oh boy, this one was really nice, but unfortunately is super bogged in material that is currently unlikely for IDW. 

Fun fact: Hope was introduced before SA2--the "resemblance" to Maria is more Predator Hawk than Black Death.

 

20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

And a sort of villainous cult lady would be cool. She doesn't have to be explicitly be an lien da expy.

Which is super easy, to be honest. I honestly didn't even draw the cult parallel, though that's probably more Ixis or Iron Queen than Lien-Da.

21 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:
Spoiler

 

One of the weirdest accidental good ideas that got no expansion on is lien da having some type of involvement with shadow.  Like a cult seeing an immortal time manipulating super hedgehog and having some sort of interest is kinda cool. Like usually when there are societies in sonic they are kinda like...long dead. But one that's active , and like screwing things up with out all the echidina baggage and interacting with the characters in interesting ways could be neat.

So some weirdo cult thinking shadow is the chosen one, (  and possibly a jab at his uh.. zealous fans, as I am one of them)  could be cool

 

 

Uh, yeah, spoiler this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I said it once, I'll say it again - it's a half-measure that will please literally no one. The Archie fans are gonna be displeased with just knockoffs of the characters they once enjoyed (I sure as hell wouldn't want a Mina or Fini expy), and the IDW fans who don't want any Archie elements aren't gonna be happy with having blatant knockoffs thrown in for the hell of it to take focus off either A. SEGA characters, or B. IDW original characters that could've been created in their place.

The thing that people also tend to miss here is that a expy of a character never works because making a character that people enjoy is a lot deeper than just fulfilling a core role. Mina isn't liked because she was just a rock artist providing motivation for the freedom fighters, people liked her because she had her own arcs that tied into the main cast, and made her sympathetic. In an era where so much soap opera trash was being thrown to the book, she's one of the very few characters that had a good arc that only continued later down the line. If you strip her character development, personality traits, and whatever else, and just throw them to a generic character who's meant to fulfil a role, it means nothing.

Enerjak is another bad example - I personally don't care about him one ounce as a villain because he ties so heavily into a awful canon designed by Penders. However, the one instance of him I'd argue is actually very well done is Knuckles!Enerjak, and the reason for that is that we know who Knuckles is as a character, and we already connect with him on an emotional level. When he's brainwashed and turned evil, we're concerned for him, not the powers he's been granted. He genuinely believes he's helping others, and when his friends try to stop him, he believes they just don't understand the good he's doing for them, and fights them back, in a desperate attempt to force them to see reason. It's not interesting because it's Enerjak, it's interesting because it's Knuckles who's being corrupted by Enerjak's power.

In which case, there's no reason to make an expy of Enerjak when you could very easily just make your own take on it, and make it more interesting instead of trying to make a half-measure based on something tied to a universally despised canon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

The thing that people also tend to miss here is that a expy of a character never works because making a character that people enjoy is a lot deeper than just fulfilling a core role.

Well...the reason expies are even made in the first place is because they can't use the original character for one reason or another.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Well...the reason expies are even made in the first place is because they can't use the original character for one reason or another.

...And? I know why expies are made.

Like yeah, they can't use the original character, it doesn't really change the fact that it's a half-measure that I can't see satisfying anyone. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

...And? I know why expies are made.

Like yeah, they can't use the original character, it doesn't really change the fact that it's a half-measure that I can't see satisfying anyone. 

I mean...it doesn't have to be because the character was a fan favorite.

Maybe the writers also wanted the character, but have to settle with making someone new.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

I mean...it doesn't have to be because the character was a fan favorite.

Maybe the writers also wanted the character, but have to settle with making someone new.

And again, it doesn't really change my point. I'd rather they make a character that might be based on a underlying theme of that past character and make something original rather than just make said character in everything but development and name. Keeping in mind I'm talking about a wholesale knockoff expy, not simply basing a character off another element. For example, I wouldn't consider Starline a Fini expy, because in terms of personality, backstory, and abilities, he's pretty different. He's an Eggman fanboy who wants to learn his ways, a fellow scientist, and is slowly beginning to become disillusioned with Eggman's ways. Finiitevus is a completely insane sadistic monster who thirsts for power and manipulates others through schemes to fulfill his goals, such as when he corrupted the Master Emerald to create Enerjak.

In terms of what I mean, there's Penders' Knuckles expy, there's also the infamous Holy Terror, which was originally meant to be a Batman book before DC nixed it, and even now when you read it, it's obviously a ripoff of Frank Miller's godawful take on Batman in All-Star Batman and Robin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

 Finiitevus is a completely insane sadistic monster who thirsts for power and manipulates others through schemes to fulfill his goals, such as when he corrupted the Master Emerald to create Enerjak.

Actually, Finitevus' mind was warped in his mutation and so he became convinced that the best way to fix everything that's wrong with the world(Eggman, Brotherhood, Dark Legion, people who worship the Avatar) is by wiping things out and letting things come back together naturally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

Actually, Finitevus' mind was warped in his mutation and so he became convinced that the best way to fix everything that's wrong with the world(Eggman, Brotherhood, Dark Legion, people who worship the Avatar) is by wiping things out and letting things come back together naturally.

Fair enough, still completely different from Starline's currently established motivation and personality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Fair enough, still completely different from Starline's currently established motivation and personality.

Precisely.

You can reuse aspects of a character while making the new thing stand on it's own. All it takes is honest inspiration and purpose that those aspects happen to simply coat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I said it once, I'll say it again - it's a half-measure that will please literally no one. The Archie fans are gonna be displeased with just knockoffs of the characters they once enjoyed (I sure as hell wouldn't want a Mina or Fini expy),

Starline is argued to be a Finitevus expy and despite that, fans take fairly well to him. Honestly, I don't think Archie fans would care. Many of them just want to see their old favorites return to the series in some way, shape or form, and, while not an ideal situation would prefer it over them being completely forgotten.

 

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

and the IDW fans who don't want any Archie elements aren't gonna be happy with having blatant knockoffs thrown in for the hell of it to take focus off either A. SEGA characters, or B. IDW original characters that could've been created in their place.

Sooo, why not meet them half-way? You don't have to make a complete knock-off of a character to make an homage. However, I'd probably review the characters to see where their personalities and roles to the stories could have been improved upon conceptually, rather than just copying a character verbatim for the sake of it.

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

The thing that people also tend to miss here is that a expy of a character never works because making a character that people enjoy is a lot deeper than just fulfilling a core role.

Hate to break it to ya, but Anime's popularity would beg to differ with you. Just look at how many characters for example, are based off of Goku from Dragonball/DBZ. Granted, I'm not saying we should just be content with copy-pasting characters, but observe and improve upon what we liked about them to make something better.

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Mina isn't liked because she was just a rock artist providing motivation for the freedom fighters, people liked her because she had her own arcs that tied into the main cast, and made her sympathetic.

My main criticism regarding her, aside from the speed angle, which I felt was completely unnecessary, was the fact they gave her a career path that essentially developed her out of her flaws. She essentially became all but an expy of herself by the time the series ended, IMO. Its like giving Fluttershy from MLP a music career and then all of a sudden she becomes this confident diva who isn't shy or reserved anymore. If I were to make a character like Mina as a homage, that aspect would either need to be addressed or removed entirely. Like, they could have given her a more simplistic job like being a medic or a scout. Or had her work more in the private sector by helping guide people to safety like Ian said she did during the Iron Queen arc. Not every Freedom Fighter needed to be fighting Eggman directly. Logically speaking, they would have needed people in the residential areas to keep the citizens safe. This is possibly where Mina might have excelled in.

If I were to re-create Mina I'd probably make her more of an aquatic creature. More siren-esque. That way, her speed can be optionally re-purposed around water, and her ability to manipulate sound can come with more powers, flexibility and consequences. Like despite her having an amazing voice, there's a reason she's low-key about it and doesn't like to use it. Make part of her journey learning to find her voice and use it by being part of the resistance, whilst struggling to control the good and bad it can do. Something I feel would be a lot more relatable to people than just throwing her into some pop music role.

 

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Enerjak is another bad example - I personally don't care about him one ounce as a villain because he ties so heavily into a awful canon designed by Penders. However, the one instance of him I'd argue is actually very well done is Knuckles!Enerjak, and the reason for that is that we know who Knuckles is as a character, and we already connect with him on an emotional level.

With SEGA's stricter rules, the only way anyone's getting an Enerjak expy period is if its Knuckles. And frankly, I think I'd find that more interesting than bringing back Dimitri. Like, what if he was a future version of Knuckles who corrupted and terrorized Silver's future? And may be causing additional problems in the present for Knuckles and other characters? What if he's trying to lure Knuckles into being the villain he becomes in the future? That would also give Silver more reason to stick around and connect with other characters, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Rosaleia said:

Hate to break it to ya, but Anime's popularity would beg to differ with you. Just look at how many characters for example, are based off of Goku from Dragonball/DBZ. Granted, I'm not saying we should just be content with copy-pasting characters, but observe and improve upon what we liked about them to make something better.

 

2 minutes ago, Rosaleia said:

Sooo, why not meet them half-way? You don't have to make a complete knock-off of a character to make an homage. However, I'd probably review the characters to see where their personalities and roles to the stories could have been improved upon conceptually, rather than just copying a character verbatim for the sake of it.

Which is why I literally clarified that: 

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

And again, it doesn't really change my point. I'd rather they make a character that might be based on a underlying theme of that past character and make something original rather than just make said character in everything but development and name. Keeping in mind I'm talking about a wholesale knockoff expy, not simply basing a character off another element. For example, I wouldn't consider Starline a Fini expy, because in terms of personality, backstory, and abilities, he's pretty different. He's an Eggman fanboy who wants to learn his ways, a fellow scientist, and is slowly beginning to become disillusioned with Eggman's ways. Finiitevus is a completely insane sadistic monster who thirsts for power and manipulates others through schemes to fulfill his goals, such as when he corrupted the Master Emerald to create Enerjak.

In terms of what I mean, there's Penders' Knuckles expy, there's also the infamous Holy Terror, which was originally meant to be a Batman book before DC nixed it, and even now when you read it, it's obviously a ripoff of Frank Miller's godawful take on Batman in All-Star Batman and Robin.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Rosaleia said:

Starline is argued to be a Finitevus expy and despite that, fans take fairly well to him. Honestly, I don't think Archie fans would care. Many of them just want to see their old favorites return to the series in some way, shape or form, and, while not an ideal situation would prefer it over them being completely forgotten.

 

That's assuming many Archie fans, New252 or preboot, are paying attention to IDW anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

 

Which is why I literally clarified that: 

 

Sorry, I misinterpreted that. My thing is, regardless of whether we believe Starline IS an expy, people think he is and have voiced ambivalence to the possibility that he is. Moreover, I've heard of Archie fans stating they wouldn't mind expy characters if it meant preserving what they had. I wouldn't want an exact replica of these characters, but more because I feel like they can be improved upon. I don't see why many of their core concepts need to be forgotten.

Personally, though I don't' think all of them need to make a return. Not really feeling the concept of Mammoth Mogul or Hope. Mogul didn't really add anything interesting, and Hope's concept feels like it'd be a little redundant to re-introduce again.

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

That's assuming many Archie fans, New252 or preboot, are paying attention to IDW anyway.

Whose to say they aren't? Or wouldn't pick the book up later? A lot of these older fans are leaving because they feel like they're being neglected and forgotten by the series.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Rosaleia said:

Sorry, I misinterpreted that. My thing is, regardless of whether we believe Starline IS an expy, people think he is and have voiced ambivalence to the possibility that he is. Moreover, I've heard of Archie fans stating they wouldn't mind expy characters if it meant preserving what they had. I wouldn't want an exact replica of these characters, but more because I feel like they can be improved upon. I don't see why many of their core concepts need to be forgotten.

Personally, though I don't' think all of them need to make a return. Not really feeling the concept of Mammoth Mogul or Hope. Mogul didn't really add anything interesting, and Hope's concept feels like it'd be a little redundant to re-introduce again.

Whose to say they aren't? Or wouldn't pick the book up later? A lot of these older fans are leaving because they feel like they're being neglected and forgotten by the series.

Or because the things they really enjoyed about it are mostly gone now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I’d appreciate the thought, and in the case of the OP I can understand why since unlike the Freedom Fighters or the Egg Bosses, the characters listed are in a legal quagmire— it’s be a different matter there because making expies of characters that they legally own would be a slap to the face to Archie fans that love them (because otherwise why not use those very characters then?).

But there’s no decent in-between for this for the reason Ryannumber1gamer highlighted without setting off mines.

Of course who knows how it might play out. Starline set himself apart from characters he’s influenced by, like Finitivus, so it might work in the event of characters like Mogul and Enerjak.      

1 hour ago, Rosaleia said:

Whose to say they aren't? Or wouldn't pick the book up later? A lot of these older fans are leaving because they feel like they're being neglected and forgotten by the series.

And part of why they feel neglected and forgotten has to do with Sega not really understanding what they’re doing when it comes to these characters or the media they put them in.

Which is why making expies are risky in this case. Not that it can’t be done, but understand that not everyone will perceive it like that—even post-reboot Sonic had old fans not interested in the comic for these very characters that were lost. And this isn’t a new thing in the Sonic fandom.

The only reason Sega wouldn’t have this mess with the characters listed in the OP would be because of Penders. Expies made after The Nu252 would likely earn Sega ire and would further reinforce that feeling of neglect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

The only reason Sega wouldn’t have this mess with the characters listed in the OP would be because of Penders. Expies made after The Nu252 would likely earn Sega ire and would further reinforce that feeling of neglect.

Nu252? What do you mean exactly?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.