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Stuff that are canon but that you wish wasn't

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39 minutes ago, Dr. Franken-Mike said:

I kind of like it more that they're a secondary group of characters that are just doing their own thing on the side that magnificently manages to effect the main plot.

How does Chaotix being canon change that at all?

39 minutes ago, Dr. Franken-Mike said:

Truthfully, this is all just a matter of preference though. If Knuckles Chaotix was ever made canon, I'd probably just make it something of a random adventure that Knuckles was on and he just happened to come across them and they did a mission together before they parted ways, forgetting about one another like you tend to do when you meet people out there in the big, wide world.

That’s canonically what happened, though. The Japanese manual states that they all arrived on the mysterious island to check it out each for completely different reasons and none of them knew each other before stumbling upon said island; it pretty much was essentially a random adventure. It suggests that Espio was already aware of Knuckles due to his interest in ancient civilizations but that’s about it.

39 minutes ago, Dr. Franken-Mike said:

The Chaotix not knowing who Eggman is doesn't make much sense regardless of whether Knuckles Chaotix happened or not. Then again, maybe all the big, memorable stuff Eggman did was on the human world before Heroes. 

Westside, South and Angel Island would be on Sonic’s world...I’m pretty sure. I don’t see how the Death Egg Saga wouldn’t be a big event.

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I prefer the modern found family dynamic over whatever the classic era was doing with them (which I suspect was basically nothing, and may be a reason why Mighty isn't being brought back to modern stylings aside from the general ban). 

Plus when you really think about it, going from Chaotix to Heroes doesn't make any sense. Even if it doesn't have Charmy suddenly age down ten years, there's still glaring consistencies. Like, you get a budding sports player (basketball primarily), a sprinter and a private investigator together and they made a general detective agency...but the basketball player is the best detective of them? And the PI is more of an intel guy due to him being a ninja who were historically used for espionage?

Also the fact that things as simple basic abilities changed between eras (Espio used to be able to colour change due to being a chameleon, now he just goes invisible due to some form of ninja arts and the chameleon thing doesn't factor in). 

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24 minutes ago, Dr Egg-Gin said:

Like, you get a budding sports player (basketball primarily), a sprinter and a private investigator together and they made a general detective agency...but the basketball player is the best detective of them? And the PI is more of an intel guy due to him being a ninja who were historically used for espionage?

But I love the implication that Espio formed the detective agency himself only to have this random schmo completely take over his business and eventually become his boss.

I have to think at one point they voted on who should be the leader and Vector got Charmy to take his side by offering him candy or something.

Like I can't imagine Vector and Espio's relationship being any other way, this is too perfect.

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1 hour ago, MainJP said:

How does Chaotix being canon change that at all?

It doesn't have to. I was reacting to the part about them being friends and allies with Knuckles. Whenever thats brought up, I imagine it being done in the same way the Archie comics did it where they just belonged to Knuckles. I gave an example as to how I'd prefer it be done if it were canon so its not like it being canon is a huge threat in and of itself. I'm just not on board with some of the details about how they would be brought back.

1 hour ago, MainJP said:

That’s canonically what happened, though. The Japanese manual states that they all arrived on the mysterious island to check it out each for completely different reasons and none of them knew each other before stumbling upon said island; it pretty much was essentially a random adventure. It suggests that Espio was already aware of Knuckles due to his interest in ancient civilizations but that’s about it.

Right but what was being suggested made it seem more like an adventure where they became hefty friends and allies to Knux and not just some mundane adventure that they forget about. Again, I was reacting to the part about them being friends and allies with Knuckles. Maybe I should have zeroed in on that part more.

Like I said, I don't see the necessity in having it be canon. 

Edit: I just re-read my post and for some reason you cut off the lead in for this specific sentence where I made it clear I was talking about their relationship with Knuckles. So I did write it more clearly than this after all. Still should have clarified harder probably.

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14 minutes ago, Ivo-goji said:

But I love the implication that Espio formed the detective agency himself only to have this random schmo completely take over his business and eventually become his boss.

I have to think at one point they voted on who should be the leader and Vector got Charmy to take his side by offering him candy or something.

Like I can't imagine Vector and Espio's relationship being any other way, this is too perfect.

Well, I don't like that idea since it's clear in canon there's no sort of resentment there. Espio is the intel because that's his skill, not because he got overtaken by a random friend who happened to be much better at his job than he was. 

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On 10/1/2019 at 11:35 PM, Meta77 said:

And who said Sega abandoned Silver from the future. He still is. But he is literally trunks in the fact he brings his butt back to sonics timeline every time ANYTHING bad happens in his time. There could be a hurricane and he would probably come back to try and stop it.

I like to think Silver just doesn't have any friends in the future, and he goes back in time and makes excuses so he can hang out with Sonic and Blaze, and be a cool time traveller.

As for canon stuff, I agree with others really when it comes to the main games that the canon just doesn't matter that much as this point. So much of it rarely matters currently, I think it would only really matter again if they do decide to full on remake the likes of Adventure 1 or 2, or try and make a full blown sequel to the events of a previous game.

I guess to throw out some alternate realities in here though, I really do dislike the fact that in the Sonic Boom TV show, they establish that when an alternate dimension Knuckles lands in their reality, the 2 Knuckles being present will result in the destruction of their universe. I guess I dislike it in a very meta way considering how in every other dimension that is never an immediete problem. (I guess it does happen in Sonic X too, but at least there it happens after like a year, rather than just 5 minutes.) Don't know if Worlds Unite/Collide ever addressed that when they had Sonic Boom crossover.

There is alot of idiotic stuff that happens in the Penders era of Archie Sonic which I'm sure has probably been brought up in the Archie and Ken Penders threads. I guess to keep the multi-dimensional theme going though, I do hate the idea that is revealed by Zone Cop Zonic that the Sonic in the Archie line is in fact Sonic Prime, and therefore the most important Sonic in the multiverse. Which honestly seems like a good summation of how Penders seemed to view his Sonic work and all the other Sonic media. I doubt in the meta sense, Archie Sonic being the most important Sonic is even remotely canon by Sega.

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On 10/2/2019 at 11:04 PM, Dr. Mechano said:

Oh, right.

I'd absolutely undo Iizuka's asinine rule that only male hedgehogs can go super (which at least seems to not be mandated in the new classic games, as Mania gave all playable characters super forms).

If you find all the Chaos Emeralds as a character, that character should get a super form. Hedgehogs aren't special and shouldn't be the only ones who can power up.

That's pretty much how it's been since the beginning though.  Yes the other characters technically have Super forms in S3&K and Mania, but at the same time no not really.  They don't get unique sprite sets, not even for the big blown-up sprite at the end of the credits.  They flash white and that's pretty much it.  The Flickies around "Super" Tails got more of an actual transformation.

In theory everyone could be given a classic-esque Super transformation by just flashing white but it'd seem so cheap.

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1 hour ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

That's pretty much how it's been since the beginning though.  Yes the other characters technically have Super forms in S3&K and Mania, but at the same time no not really.  They don't get unique sprite sets, not even for the big blown-up sprite at the end of the credits.  They flash white and that's pretty much it.  The Flickies around "Super" Tails got more of an actual transformation.

In theory everyone could be given a classic-esque Super transformation by just flashing white but it'd seem so cheap.

They're still officially called Super Tails and Super Knuckles though (or Hyper Knuckles if you get all the Super Emeralds; Tails lacks a Hyper form).

I'm fine with their appearance not changing as much, but I dislike the notion that they can no longer go super. Their appearance changing isn't what really matters; It's their invincibility, enhanced speed, extended jump, etc. that truly makes them super. 

I can accept that hedgehogs give off more of a visual change in response to the Chaos Emeralds, but not the idea that the old super forms are all gone. I'm glad Mania at least brought non-Sonic super transformations back.

Arguably, Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games even brought classic-style Chaos Emerald-induced powering up (without major changes to appearance) to everyone, even Eggman himself (skip to 6:26):

He gets invincibility and super speed, zaps everyone with lightning, and is surrounded by an aura of light for the brief period of power the Chaos Emerald provides without his appearance as a whole changing. Seems like a low-intensity "super form" brought about by a single Emerald (as opposed to the full potency of having all seven).

It's one of the only examples in the series of humans - and specifically Eggman - directly using a Chaos Emerald on himself rather than one of his machines. While it is just a goofy spinoff game whose canonicity is tenuous at best, I still think it potentially raises some interesting questions as to whether anyone could go super if they had all the Chaos Emeralds.

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15 hours ago, Dr. Franken-Mike said:

Truthfully, this is all just a matter of preference though. If Knuckles Chaotix was ever made canon, I'd probably just make it something of a random adventure that Knuckles was on and he just happened to come across them and they did a mission together before they parted ways, forgetting about one another like you tend to do when you meet people out there in the big, wide world.

The Chaotix not knowing who Eggman is doesn't make much sense regardless of whether Knuckles Chaotix happened or not. Then again, maybe all the big, memorable stuff Eggman did was on the human world before Heroes. 

I mean, essentiall.  

14 hours ago, MainJP said:

 It suggests that Espio was already aware of Knuckles due to his interest in ancient civilizations but that’s about it.

Westside, South and Angel Island would be on Sonic’s world...I’m pretty sure. I don’t see how the Death Egg Saga wouldn’t be a big event.

Espio had an interest in archeology? 

How many people actually knew about Angel Island, though?

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7 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I mean, essentiall.  

Espio had an interest in archeology? 

How many people actually knew about Angel Island, though?

I mean, how could anyone not know?

If our world had a floating island, I'm sure everyone would know about it. Sonic's world isn't meaningfully different from ours in terms of technological advancement, and is arguably more advanced in some ways. So they almost certainly have a solid idea of what their own planet's geography looks like, which would include a big noticeable floating island.

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7 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Espio had an interest in archeology? 

How many people actually knew about Angel Island, though?

I assume a lot of people know about it. It's a floating continent. I mean, people know about the Little Planet

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20 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I mean, how could anyone not know?

If our world had a floating island, I'm sure everyone would know about it. Sonic's world isn't meaningfully different from ours in terms of technological advancement, and is arguably more advanced in some ways. So they almost certainly have a solid idea of what their own planet's geography looks like, which would include a big noticeable floating island.

 

19 minutes ago, MainJP said:

I assume a lot of people know about it. It's a floating continent. I mean, people know about the Little Planet

Mm...Idk. 

I guess I can buy Little Planet more since it shows up once per year in a set spot. Angel Island, on the other hand, was supposed be more isolated from the rest of the world,  to the point that Sonic, Tails, and Eggman only encounter Knuckles because the Death Egg happened to land on it. 

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11 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I mean, how could anyone not know?

If our world had a floating island, I'm sure everyone would know about it. Sonic's world isn't meaningfully different from ours in terms of technological advancement, and is arguably more advanced in some ways. So they almost certainly have a solid idea of what their own planet's geography looks like, which would include a big noticeable floating island.

It was definitely a "legendary" floating island when it was first introduced.

At this point it's a bit of a weird artifact from when the scope of the world was much smaller and less defined, when all we had seen was a couple of islands and we only knew of one guy with technology of any real significance. All sorts of weird shit could be lurking just offscreen.

The Adventures changed all that though, making the world more clearly a mirror of our own and advancing the story to a global scale. It's a lot harder to imagine things like Angel Island, the Little Planet, and Lost Hex going undiscovered in a world with modern air travel and GPS satellites and the like.

...tbh it's kinda selling me on the value of the two worlds setup, at least one world can still be "magic".

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4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It was definitely a "legendary" floating island when it was first introduced.

At this point it's a bit of a weird artifact from when the scope of the world was much smaller and less defined, when all we had seen was a couple of islands and we only knew of one guy with technology of any real significance. All sorts of weird shit could be lurking just offscreen.

The Adventures changed all that though, making the world more clearly a mirror of our own and advancing the story to a global scale. It's a lot harder to imagine things like Angel Island, the Little Planet, and Lost Hex going undiscovered in a world with modern air travel and GPS satellites and the like.

...tbh it's kinda selling me on the value of the two worlds setup, at least one world can still be "magic".

Hm, but even the classic games did have air travel and even space travel. Mania - which at least evokes the classic design aesthetic despite being produced very recently - shows that the world has TV and mass communication on some level thanks to Studiopolis.

I think that even if all we had to go on were the classic series, the idea that nobody knew about Angel Island would still be kind of a hard sell.

Then again, the Sonic 3 Japanese manual might handwave this a little?

Quote

On the Death Egg's dropping orbit, there was a single huge, floating mass of clouds closer to the ground.
And there was an enormous shadow quietly hiding within those clouds...
Towering mountains, spread out woods... That shadow was an island. It was a massive "floating island" that drifted through the sky.

Angel Island being hidden behind clouds could explain why it went unnoticed in a world that has airplanes and rocketships and TV, I suppose.

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11 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It was definitely a "legendary" floating island when it was first introduced.

At this point it's a bit of a weird artifact from when the scope of the world was much smaller and less defined, when all we had seen was a couple of islands and we only knew of one guy with technology of any real significance. All sorts of weird shit could be lurking just offscreen.

The Adventures changed all that though, making the world more clearly a mirror of our own and advancing the story to a global scale. It's a lot harder to imagine things like Angel Island, the Little Planet, and Lost Hex going undiscovered in a world with modern air travel and GPS satellites and the like.

...tbh it's kinda selling me on the value of the two worlds setup, at least one world can still be "magic".

Actually, the Lost Hex is probably an acceptable middle ground from what little we're given. 

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38 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Sonic's world isn't meaningfully different from ours in terms of technological advancement, and is arguably more advanced in some ways. 

Arguably? They have futuristic cities with flying cars.

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14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

 

The Adventures changed all that though, making the world more clearly a mirror of our own and advancing the story to a global scale. It's a lot harder to imagine things like Angel Island, the Little Planet, and Lost Hex going undiscovered in a world with modern air travel and GPS satellites and the like.

...tbh it's kinda selling me on the value of the two worlds setup, at least one world can still be "magic".

In fiction, magic has a way or hiding itself until it's convenient. All Sonic Adventure did was flesh out the cityscapes and human structures that have been lurking In the background since it's inception.

I personally never had a problem accepting that Sonic's world was still filled with possibility. There's still plenty of things about our world we haven't found or don't understand. 

I can always see the appeal of a rural, uncharted fantasy world but that was never Sonic. 

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1 minute ago, Wraith said:

In fiction, magic has a way or hiding itself until it's convenient. All Sonic Adventure did was flesh out the cityscapes and human structures that have been lurking In the background since it's inception.

Which left a lot less space for that magic stuff to hide in. It's not impossible, obviously, they still squeezed in stuff like the Black Arms temples/airships and the Gaia Temples, but an entire continent just hovering around is a bit harder to hide, and it's not like they've ever said it has a cloaking device or it's in a wormhole or anything that would actually explain why it hadn't been discovered.

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

I can always see the appeal of a rural, uncharted fantasy world but that was never Sonic. 

I'd say it kinda was, though. Not a complete outright fantasy world, but...fuzzy. That's where things like Angel Island and the Little Planet fit in, and even South Island's supposed to be some weird moving island that distorted spacetime.

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1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Which left a lot less space for that magic stuff to hide in. It's not impossible, obviously, they still squeezed in stuff like the Black Arms temples/airships and the Gaia Temples, but an entire continent just hovering around is a bit harder to hide, and it's not like they've ever said it has a cloaking device or it's in a wormhole or anything that would actually explain why it hadn't been discovered.

I never interpreted it as continent sized which makes it more reasonable that it was never found. The fact that there were myths about it, Little Planet and The Lost Hex was enough to keep my suspension of disbelief intact. Eggman coming in and stomping all over all of these things and Planet Wisp on top of it is a good enough allegory of what would happen if humans discovered these things. Their purity is what Sonic was here to protect. 

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

I'd say it kinda was, though. Not a complete outright fantasy world, but...fuzzy. That's where things like Angel Island and the Little Planet fit in, and even South Island's supposed to be some weird moving island that distorted spacetime.

Sonic was linked as much to modern culture as it was to fantasy concepts so I just can't really 100% see it this way. It was always a combination of both and the games consistently featured these ideas clashing. The series leaning too hard on one or the other feels awkward to me. 

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4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I never interpreted it as continent sized which makes it more reasonable that it was never found. The fact that there were myths about it, Little Planet and The Lost Hex was enough to keep my suspension of disbelief intact. Eggman coming in and stomping all over all of these things and Planet Wisp on top of it is a good enough allegory of what would happen if humans discovered these things. Their purity is what Sonic was here to protect. 

That's sort of the problem, isn't it; he's only one 'hog, he can fight off one mad scientist, but if there's a whole modern world out there...how has some country not already found and taken control of all this mystical stuff?

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic was linked as much to modern culture as it was to fantasy concepts so I just can't really 100% see it this way. It was always a combination of both and the games consistently featured these ideas clashing. The series leaning too hard on one or the other feels awkward to me. 

I mean I'm not saying there shouldn't be any kind of modern civilization, I've got nothing against Spring Yard and Starlight and SA on its own is probably alright, but SA2 really doubled down on it and I'm starting to think it's been off balance in that end's favor ever since. Or maybe just that they filled in enough detail on that end that it's hard to see the two sides as part of the same world.

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21 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That's sort of the problem, isn't it; he's only one 'hog, he can fight off one mad scientist, but if there's a whole modern world out there...how has some country not already found and taken control of all this mystical stuff?

I think we're getting into the realm of being unfair toward the series here, but I will remind you that Sonic has literally fought off the world's government before. GUN stands for the Guardian of United Nations. It's the force of whatever big organized governments exist in Sonic's World and Sonic and Eggman ripped them to shreds. 

 

They can't keep up. 

Quote

I mean I'm not saying there shouldn't be any kind of modern civilization, I've got nothing against Spring Yard and Starlight and SA on its own is probably alright, but SA2 really doubled down on it and I'm starting to think it's been off balance in that end's favor ever since. Or maybe just that they filled in enough detail on that end that it's hard to see the two sides as part of the same world.

Like I said before I think when they lean too far on one end it starts to feel weird. I dont personally consider Sonic Adventure 2 an example of that but it's direct followups absolutely. It's hard to assume there are still new discoveries to be made about Sonic's World when no new discoveries are being made made. For a long time t's been beings from space or alternate timelines with the actual planet being treated as normal for the most part.

Unleashed was refreshing and Lost World's premise was pleasant to me for similar reasons but I actually understand where you're coming from otherwise

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6 minutes ago, Wraith said:

People were complaining about the consisensty of Sonic's world long before sega came up with this.

I know, but we still accepted it as just on one Earth/Mobius/Sonic’s World in spite of that. 

The only major point of contention there was on the planet’s name.

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