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Marco9966

Sonic Project Hero FINALLY downloadable!

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Hey guys! Remember the 3D Sonic Mania? The engine that will revive Sonic Adventure and make it the best Sonic gameplay since Sonic Mania?

Here it it, available for download: https://sonicfangameshq.com/forums/showcase/sonic-project-hero-2019-demo-out-now.400/

Let's make sure SEGA do themselves a favor and us a favor and hire him already

EDIT: the creator's doesn't want people to keep saying SEGA should hire him. Maybe find another way to encourage him like nice comments and support

CONTROLS: move: wasd, jump: spacebar, spindash: left click, kick: right click

Best part is: you can also use your mouse to change direction while you do a spindash! Most controllable 3D Sonic ever.

Note: it's only opened with 7zip

 

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It looks very impressive, similar to Sonic Infinity Engine in that it has a professional feel to it.

Hopefully we'll see someone make levels out of it, because I've not seen much come out of these great 3D engines other than level ports from Adventure, 06 and Generations (Bumper Engine is a good example).

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Honestly, I won't download it just right now, I'm waiting for the levels, not just a test level. I'm honestly not that interested anymore in downloading tons of engines that show promises and good potential but that might ultimately not be utilized to produce anything. I'm not against him releasing his test build though : I just don't have much fun in a test level, and prefer to wait for actual content, even unfinished, and to know his actual plan for the game (because the engine are just one part of the game, and often even the fangame with good engine are kinda lacking in the rest). And I wish him all the good luck, because I'm interested to see what will be his game.

 

And for an actual criticism about what I'm seeing from the engine : the gameplay seems a bit cluttered by the number of ability. Stuff like having both the the homing attack, the stomp, the bounce attack AND the drop dash seems go a bit against the principle of simplicity of the engine (especially stomp + bounce attack). One mistake that Sonic World also do, imho. Other than that the physics seems pretty nice, and I like the polished feeling of the engine. Tail's bombs are really cool too, and the feeling seems better than GDK, base bumper engine or World, and that's a good point. The feeling seems on point, too.

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6 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

Honestly, I won't download it just right now, I'm waiting for the levels...

You could download Sonic GT, it's not using this engine...but it does have actual levels to play (if you don't mind a bit of open ended-ness). The idea is the same though

https://sonicfangameshq.com/forums/showcase/sonic-gt-sage-final-demo.332/

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12 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

Let's make sure SEGA do themselves a favor and us a favor and hire him already

Someone didn't read the ReadMe.txt:

g2YA601.png

(And he's right.)

Anyway, I thought it was a nice little demo, and particularly it's nice to see Tails and Knuckles done some justice in a framework like this.

...that said, I don't think it's the second coming of Sonic Christ. Particularly as I played this after sinking time into the Sonic Islands framework's recent demo:

I think Islands still has game feel over Hero's project. The camera work feels a lot more accommodating in Islands - it lets you build crazy speed but still feel totally in control, and makes going round loops and halfpipes fun and easy to integrate into basic movement. I tend to stay away from not-flat ground in Hero's because I feel like it's just gonna screw up my flow, like SA1 can when it doesn't work - my biggest complaint is that trying to get round loops is a pain in the ass because the camera doesn't give you a good view of what's ahead at all, unlike Islands. In general, the physics and basic mechanics don't feel as polished - jumping into a hill in Hero's demo causes me to glide up it weirdly, whereas I react more as I'd expect to in Islands. Islands also has the camera lock that lets you stick the camera behind Sonic at all times, which works wonderfully for lining up setpieces like loops, without automation - I couldn't find a similar mapping in Hero's. 

And this is all considering all Islands has right now is a roll. Not even a proper spindash - just rolling! But thanks to well-done animation, brilliant camera work and clever game design choices like that camera lock even at this early stage, the game feel is absolutely brilliant. It's not shown in that particular video, but the demo even has Radiant Emerald from Sonic R hidden in the map, and it's really fun to blaze around it with the rolling physics working as they should - it's more like playing an actual Sonic level within the framework. Building speed feels so satisfying, whereas in Hero's project it feels a little more bogstandard, a little more like every other 3D Sonic engine of the now. And this is bearing in mind Islands *is* getting its crazy moveset (including parkour, drop dashing, bounce attacking, and a really damn satisfying insta-shield) back eventually, it's just not currently implemented while major game logic bugs get fixed. It just confuses me that, in Hero's, something as utterly superfluous as Extreme Gear got put in, but something as basic to this style of 3D Sonic being attempted as going round a loop is irritating and confusing to do. I saw the Infinity Engine mentioned as an example of a 'professional looking engine' a couple of posts above, but the thing with that is that as nice and fancy as it looks, it's really not a whole lot of fun to play, even in practice with level design (as some SAGE demos proposed). I think Hero's is much better than the Infinity Engine, but still. 

So yeah, while it's a really good demo no doubt and deserves plenty of commendation (especially for Tails and Knuckles), I'm not exactly chomping at the bit for this to be the next Sonic framework. Not yet, at least. Calling a still fairly flawed framework with no solid focus or structure "the 3D Sonic Mania" is a bit much.

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1 hour ago, Tracker_TD said:

...but something as basic to this style of 3D Sonic being attempted as going round a loop is irritating and confusing to do.

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding this, what exactly was the problem with going through a loop in Project Hero?

It didn't seem bad at all, but...

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20 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding this, what exactly was the problem with going through a loop in Project Hero?

It didn't seem bad at all, but...

I think it's most pronounced with the pipe area, something both Islands and Hero have.

7VXRO2F.gif

In Hero, the camera is wedged pretty stuck behind Sonic here - it pretty much disorientates you with the blur effects, and gives a pretty poor sense of where you are.

0zqMET9.gif

Islands holds its camera further back, it's more like a top down view - it makes judging where you are a tad easier in practice, and feels less disorientating (even when boost mode is activated, the blue streak isn't as distractingly in your face as Hero's). 

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3 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

I think it's most pronounced with the pipe area, something both Islands and Hero have.

In Hero, the camera is wedged pretty stuck behind Sonic here - it pretty much disorientates you with the blur effects, and gives a pretty poor sense of where you are.

Islands holds its camera further back, it's more like a top down view - it makes judging where you are a tad easier in practice, and feels less disorientating (even when boost mode is activated, the blue streak isn't as distractingly in your face as Hero's). 

Oh, I see. Not only is it pulled back, but it interacts with the terrain better making it easier on the eyes. Yeah, that's usually my problem with these cameras too.

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21 hours ago, Tracker_TD said:

Someone didn't read the ReadMe.txt:

g2YA601.png

(And he's right.)

Meh; he makes some good points, but he misses so many others that it almost seems like he's deliberately swerving to avoid them.  That is most notable in how the only mention he gave Sonic Mania was to salute Takeshi Iizuka for greenlighting and promoting it. At no point did he mention that the game is proof that fangame developers can go to work on official games in their franchise.  Perhaps that was entailed in the point he made about fans only getting to the point of "side projects", but that's still selling the game and its developers short; that side project was better-received than any main project had been received in over a decade.

As to how experience making frameworks for free engines doesn't necessarily translate to competence using a company's standard, often licensed engines, that is a good point, and I won't say that Unity is superior to Havok or that these fangame creators are superior to Sega's own programmers.  However, I can't quite diss people who do make these claims when many of these fangames more closely reflect Yuji Naka's original vision of how Sonic should play.  

A key thing to remember is, these people have different priorities.  Sega's official (sometimes) 3d games aim to convey a full (if not deep) story through specific experiences in levels that are full of constraints to this end.  Sonic's speed is constantly touted but just as constantly restricted by shifts between 2d and 3d, invisible walls, secondary mechanics, and even points of Sonic being automatically accelerated or decelerated.  Physics are an afterthought and emergent play is almost nonexistent.  The better-received free-engine and framework combinations begin as comprehensive, mostly unhindered physics demos in "sandbox" levels that are full of terrain features to trick around, but very few enemies, hazards, or other things that can provide a sense of challenge or purpose to players.  Putting in levels that actually add such gamey things in a way that fits the framework seems to be the most problematic hurdle for many fangame developers.  Which incidentally is why I sympathize with people who are mad when a framework is not open-source; the developers of such things can only do so much themselves, especially when they have day jobs to occupy their time, and letting others take a crack at it helps things to grow.

So comparing official Sonic games to 3d framework Sonic fangames is like comparing apples to oranges.  Still, there's nothing wrong with preferring the oranges, nor is it wrong to observe that Sega has never taken a chance on them.  Many feel the boost formula reached its peak in Sonic Generations.  They can make new levels for it, but the amount of features you can have in such levels may be limited.  That is especially true when you consider that Sega actually thought automating more of the boost process was a good idea in Sonic Forces, and that boost games likely will never be free of time-killing gimmicks.

The bottom line is that Sega can learn from fangame developers. Maybe they can't learn anything about programming, and they may not gain anything from hiring their creators as progremmers, but they can learn of other visions for how Sonic should play that fans obviously like.

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8 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

At no point did he mention that the game is proof that fangame developers can go to work on official games in their franchise.

It's only proof of that on a purely literal basis. What it's actually proof of is that after over 10 years of work, and build up through smaller projects such as the remaster ports, that they were trusted with assembling a team for an anniversary title. Taxman and co were more than just fans - they were industry professionals, and I feel the point D is making is that just having an engine isn't proof of that.

Take LakeFeperd, the guy behind the Sonic Before the Sequel lineage, someone who undoubtedly had "SEGA should hire you!" thrown at him many a time. But having a competent game isn't enough - I mean, putting aside that I think BtS/AtS are shite, he himself is not of a professional mindset. He's acted like an egotistical child both in livestreams and during fan events, even directly to the Mania devs in the interest of pumping up his own amateurish attempts. He's the last person I'd want helming a Sonic game, and yet he thinks he deserves to be a director of one, even above Iizuka-san! Even if his games were actually on par with Mania - you need to be more than a "fangame developer" for this stuff. Taxman built up appropriate connections through years upon years of iteration and work, and even Mania came like, a solid 5 years or so after his first, smaller project with SEGA. 

My point is, Mania isn't proof that fangame developers can go to work on official games, it's proof that talented programmers can produce extremely good games. Tax and co are far more than just "fangame developers." 

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11 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Take LakeFeperd, the guy behind the Sonic Before the Sequel lineage, someone who undoubtedly had "SEGA should hire you!" thrown at him many a time. But having a competent game isn't enough - I mean, putting aside that I think BtS/AtS are shite, he himself is not of a professional mindset. He's acted like an egotistical child both in livestreams and during fan events, even directly to the Mania devs in the interest of pumping up his own amateurish attempts. He's the last person I'd want helming a Sonic game, and yet he thinks he deserves to be a director of one, even above Iizuka-san! Even if his games were actually on par with Mania - you need to be more than a "fangame developer" for this stuff. Taxman built up appropriate connections through years upon years of iteration and work, and even Mania came like, a solid 5 years or so after his first, smaller project with SEGA. 

This seems needlessly confrontational. BTS and ATS are undoubtedly some of the best Sonic fangames ever made, as flawed as they are, and he's incredibly impressive for actually completing three fan projects. That's more than can be said for virtually everyone else in the community.

Also, he's not really an amateur, he's created Spark the Electric Jester and its sequel, so he has indie professional game development credentials.

Maybe his demeanour isn't professional, but I'd hardly say its more egregious than, say, Brad/Slingerland. He used to say some interesting stuff about Sonic Team before being hired.

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While a good engine/framework is not in itself proof that an amateur can make a good game, a badly made official game can and should call into question whether the professionals are doing things right, or whether they need to hire new blood.  More likely they need to be given more time to work, but the reason people have more faith in fans is that they've seen too many incidences of the pros letting them down.

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1 hour ago, Plasme said:

This seems needlessly confrontational. BTS and ATS are undoubtedly some of the best Sonic fangames ever made, as flawed as they are, and he's incredibly impressive for actually completing three fan projects. That's more than can be said for virtually everyone else in the community.

Also, he's not really an amateur, he's created Spark the Electric Jester and its sequel, so he has indie professional game development credentials.

Maybe his demeanour isn't professional, but I'd hardly say its more egregious than, say, Brad/Slingerland. He used to say some interesting stuff about Sonic Team before being hired.

I don't think Brad was ever blatantly racist on a stream, or harassed devs to their face so no, I'd say it's a little more egregious. Regardless of whether he's technically selling his own IPs, I'd still hesitate to say he's professional. And I'd much rather have quality over quantity, so finishing 2 fairly crap fangames isn't that impressive to me. Hell, all Lake's SAGE streams amounted to even this year was him dumping on actually promising titles like Pizza Tower or Sondro Gomez. He's not even a positive influence within the community that gave him his rise, let alone any kind of professional environment. 

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

While a good engine/framework is not in itself proof that an amateur can make a good game, a badly made official game can and should call into question whether the professionals are doing things right, or whether they need to hire new blood.  More likely they need to be given more time to work, but the reason people have more faith in fans is that they've seen too many incidences of the pros letting them down.

I'm not saying don't criticise Sonic Team, or not give the fans their dues - god knows I *love* how something like Islands feels to play, even in its primitive state right now. My point is "SEGA should hire you" is a dumb thing to jump to given what's actually there right now. Even Taxman's initial demo for the Retro Engine, RetroSonic, had at least one actual stage (with boss!) to go through, and that was like, nearly 10 years before he pitched CD - it ran on Dreamcast! 

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It could definitely use some tweaks, but I think it's pretty good. The only big thing that sticks out to me is that like a lot of 3D fan engines the normal running acceleration feels a bit too fast, it's a bit awkward trying to move around at slower speeds at times. The movesets are pretty dense but actually feel well thought out and interesting compared to the likes of World...but I guess I can understand being wary because of that game lol.

Admittedly the Extreme Gear kinda confuses me. Doesn't seem like it'd fit in levels built around everything else so I assume it's just in there for fun? Only thing I can think of is that it'd be kinda cool for special stages or something like that.

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On 10/6/2019 at 8:05 AM, Kazhnuz said:

And for an actual criticism about what I'm seeing from the engine : the gameplay seems a bit cluttered by the number of ability. Stuff like having both the the homing attack, the stomp, the bounce attack AND the drop dash seems go a bit against the principle of simplicity of the engine (especially stomp + bounce attack).

Would the option to equipt abilities ala Mania or Generations remedy this?

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11 minutes ago, MainJP said:

Would the option to equip abilities ala Mania or Generations remedy this?

No it really wouldn't, having both the stomp and the bounce in the same game is redundant.

They could just axe both those abilities, same for most engines like this really.

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1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

No it really wouldn't, having both the stomp and the bounce in the same game is redundant.

They could just axe both those abilities, same for most engines like this really.

Then get rid of Stomp since it's a shit ability. Bounce is actually fun.

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4 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Bounce doesn't work like in SA2 or Mania, it doesn't repel you off slopes. So unless they change that, it can go.

What are you talking about?

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12 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

That 2nd Gif is the only example of what I meant before by the way.

That's got a rounded curve dipping closer to the ground though. That's just physics at play; Sonic gets a nice propulsion into the opposite direction however. The angle you're propelled in depends on what part of the slope your bouncing on and how steep the slope is.

J0h0aGQ.gif

In Sonic 3 I don't get launched off of the steep slopes in Marble Garden. The Bounce stays, Stomp can take a hike.

What you SHOULD be worried about is that insane amount of air you can achieve bouncing off of slopes with enough momentum.

EvPrv6P.gifCiryo2E.gif

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6 minutes ago, MainJP said:

What you SHOULD be worried about is that insane amount of air you can achieve bouncing off of slopes with enough momentum.

That's exactly what I was talking about, just in the opposite direction. Which is...more realistic I guess.

Look at the first few seconds of this speed run, it's what I meant.

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6 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

That's exactly what I was talking about, just in the opposite direction. Which is...more realistic I guess.

tfgEtt0.png

Oh. Slopes facing the opposite direction. I couldn't tell based on the wording.

 

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