If you were in charge of the Sonic franchise

[Wraith]

A new transformation is usually a good bookend to an emotional low, so now I feel like the arc Shadow needs to go through in this game(coming to terms to with his reputation and building a better one) needs to be more defined and his insecurities need to be overcome through a face that represents those things. 

Thing is, they kind already did that with Mephilies, but technically that didn't happen so I don't know where he stands as far as how he actually affected Shadow's character and whether it's worth going down that road again.

[A Peep]

. keep Christian Whitehead and his crew for 2D

. Release 2D and 3D within each other eg. 3D game - 2021, 2d game - 2023 so on. This way fans won’t have to wait that long for games as much especially with different teams working on them.

. Scrap the boost. I like Unleashed & Generations but with Forces, the boost ran (ha ha) it’s course. Instead, bring back SA1 or 2’s speed stages 

. Ian Flynn - head writer

i didn’t hate Ken pontak and Warren grafts writing, but Ian Flynn just nails everything better

[Johnny Boy]

I’d bring back Neo Metal Sonic and essentially use him the way Ian Flynn wrote him in the idw comics. Also I’d have Infinite stick around as one of Eggmans more competent minions and that way he can have a five bad band dynamic going on with Eggman, Metal, Orbot, and Cubot.

[Wraith]

I like Infinite sticking around but I want to lean harder into his insecurities. Would he learn his lesson about taking shortcuts to gather strength or would he just try to get his hands on an even harder to control power source?

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

I like Infinite sticking around but I want to lean harder into his insecurities. Would he learn his lesson about taking shortcuts to gather strength or would he just try to get his hands on an even harder to control power source?

 like the latter. Like him being kind of like a sonic metallo or like a Hank Henshaw where he needs a power source. But that source whatever it might be allows him to have run in's with various cast members.

Like he tries to use a chunk of the Me after it gets shattered again for plot reasons. But encounters knuckles and knuckles has control over it and thinking he won doesn't even know what knuckles's job is and knuckles's renders his entire body useless then takes it Some like not intentionally cruel but cruel punishent. I get the feeling infinite isn't one to do research , he just think he's better than you. So he would just walk in , not even knowing who knuckles's is really and now he can't even control his body as knuckles removes it from his

Or tries to use a soul emerald and blaze just ends up burning him real bad. like horrible burns, like burns that now he needs like new robotic enhancements for. He doesn't understand the urgency of why blaze needed those emeralds nor did he care. She got ticked off and went agro and he again didn't bother to understand who he was messing with

Or like he gets the PR back, and tries to go after shadow. but shaadow's familiar and through sheer force of being a stubborn asshole and will is the one who starts controlling the illusions despite it being in his chest. Or makes the wrong illusion ( maria ) shadow gets pissed and bodies him.

Each encounter he gets more and more beaten and battered needing more and more cybernetic enhancements until he's eventually andriod than man....jackal. And he continues loosing his " mobianity " and being a larger lesson about fruitless pursuits of power.

And to add on to this, I always had this idea that like infinite wasn't the orginal leader of the jackal squad. He had like an older brother, who was taller and stronger and maybe that girl on the team liked him and infnite felt away about that. And maybe one day during a mission gone wrong he mufasa-ed him whilist no one was aware and then subsequently took over the jacket squad. And despite getting everything he wanted with his brother being dead, his brother still haunted him. So like his insecurities that he had no intensified because maybe various characters remind him of his brother. Maybe shadow specifically to intensify his beef with him along with some interesting parallels. Like like his older brother would haunt him because of what he actually lacks and is trying to hide.  And maria haunts shadow because he think he lacks something he has, and is trying to help people to make up for. Like a selfishness vs a selflessness. But it doesn't end there, like sonic being a cool dude and having a girl willing to chase after him kinda ticks him off because aforementioned jackal girl who liked his brother. Buncha characters, the feats they achieve and the trials they have gone through and what they have done, play on his insecurities. Because at the end of the day he knows deep down inside everything he's gotten is ill gotten. And it eats away at him, so he continues to get these augmentations to prove his brother wrong. But he never will.

[Wraith]

My idea for Infinite was a lot simpler. Basically he'd ally with whatever the bad guy of the week was who would promise him power in exchange for information on the heroes. The character is comic relief levels of weak outside of whatever gimmick hes using, but remains persistent nonetheless 

In his mind, he's all about ultimately beating Shadow and the rest of Sonic's friends, but every time he's bested. Eventually his edge softens and Shadow begrudgingly takes him under his wing. Shadow, after everything, still believes in redemption to a degree and considers Infinite pretty harmless all things considered. He's taught how to fight for real. 

[Ivo-goji]

Infinite reconciling with Shadow would undermine the impact of Shadow wiping out the Jackal Squad.  That lets Shadow off the hook too easily.

Personally I want the next Sonic game to be about Shadow confronting the fact that he's responsible for everything that happened in Forces and realizing that he's become the kind of person who would have carried out the ARK massacre.

I don't think Infinite fixiating on Shadow makes any sense, given that he expresses complete indifference towards him during the course of Forces proper.  It's the relationship between Infinite and the Avatar character that has the most fertile ground to develop further.

If it were up to me, Eggman would go after the Rookie to use him as a replacement for Infinite, thinking that if the Rookie could control the Phantom Ruby prototype then they can be shaped into a more powerful living weapon.  Infinite is ordered to coach the Rookie in harnessing the Phantom Ruby and making them carry out missions for Eggman, but he would be infuriated at the idea of becoming obsolete and eventually try to prove he is stronger.

[DabigRG]

Since we've gotten into pitching and/or fan fiction territory,

On 7/15/2019 at 4:06 PM, DabigRG said:

Sonic Heroes: Hectic Battle

When the Zeti return to strike havoc across Sonic's World, he and his friends team up to drive the Deadly Six off and put a stop to their terror.

Playable Characters include Sonic, Tails, Amy, Cream, Knuckles, and Rouge/Omega. 

Locations include Never Lake, Angel Island, Leaf Forest, Metropolitan Highway, a creepy cave, a hexagonal plateau, and more.

 

[Wraith]

4 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Infinite reconciling with Shadow would undermine the impact of Shadow wiping out the Jackal Squad.  That lets Shadow off the hook too easily.

 

This implies that it was wrong for Shadow to do that when it wasn't. I could see how it would be hard for the two to reconcile after that, though.

[Dr. Detective]

I still don't know what context the defeat of Jackal Squad is supposed to be seen as. I'm absolutely not going with the narrative that Shadow killed those guys. 

I'd imagine Infinite probably has a friend or two in that group that are looking for him and trying to get him to see reason. He's wallowed deeper and deeper down the wrong path because his desire to be strong, probably brought upon by a harsh past which led to the formation of Jackal Squad, filled with like-minded individuals who shared similar turmoil, is warping his mind to the point where he's barely able to concentrate on his original, probably more noble, reason for getting stronger and just wants to do it because it's turned into an unhealthy obsession.

Like a dude with a gambling debt who keeps getting more and more in debt because of an untreated addiction. 

[Wraith]

I didnt immediately read death into it but I imagine Shadow left the group unable to keep operating at least. So, pretty serious damage even if he spared them. 

Or maybe Infinite just got a little insecure about their strength as a unit after that beating and left, lol.

I always actually imagined Infinite had it pretty well off in his past. Spoiled, even. Any hardship would have forged a stronger individual but Infinite is kind of a poser through and through. I imagined him as a character who doesn't really understand hardship and has just taken shortcuts for most of his life.

[ComeAsYouAre]

Given how they characterize Shadow nowadays I wouldn't be surprised if he actually did kill them

[Shadowlax]

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

 

Personally I want the next Sonic game to be about Shadow confronting the fact that he's responsible for everything that happened in Forces and realizing that he's become the kind of person who would have carried out the ARK massacre.

 

Eh, even if he did kill them. He's still not that, ontop of we have no context as to why he did that. Ontop of infinite showing now signs of that effecting his characterization whatsoever. The people on the arc were full scientists and civilians and just strait up innocent people, the jackal squad for better or for worse decided to work with a robo dictator. Which is not being an innocent scientist. If say shadow just walked into a village and just started murdering people because they got to close to a jewel he a was suspicious of that would be the same. But to compare them is ...laughable at best. And its why I always found the comparison between shadow and eggman in the comic kind of an offensive " Both sides are right " take. No. Shadow's a dick, he's not the worst person in the world.

7 hours ago, Dr. Franken-Mike said:

I still don't know what context the defeat of Jackal Squad is supposed to be seen as. I'm absolutely not going with the narrative that Shadow killed those guys. 

Yeah like they just vanished, they aren't mentioned. They have no effect on the narrative. They were a last minute addition to try and give infinite depth, but have no effect on the story.

7 hours ago, Dr. Franken-Mike said:

I'd imagine Infinite probably has a friend or two in that group that are looking for him and trying to get him to see reason. He's wallowed deeper and deeper down the wrong path because his desire to be strong, probably brought upon by a harsh past which led to the formation of Jackal Squad, filled with like-minded individuals who shared similar turmoil, is warping his mind to the point where he's barely able to concentrate on his original, probably more noble, reason for getting stronger and just wants to do it because it's turned into an unhealthy obsession.

Like a dude with a gambling debt who keeps getting more and more in debt because of an untreated addiction. 

That's more charitible than my take on power obsessed infinite, i like it

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

I always actually imagined Infinite had it pretty well off in his past. Spoiled, even. Any hardship would have forged a stronger individual but Infinite is kind of a poser through and through. I imagined him as a character who doesn't really understand hardship and has just taken shortcuts for most of his life.

...Oh my god, oh my god you have.... holyshit. That might be the best infinite take I have ever seen. Like infinite is like some rich spoiled brat is someone who hired a bunch of people to hang out with him so he can be a merc going out on missions. But never really had the skill for it.

This is the best, this is the best.

And then they encounter his parents and they are like

"Oh our Ifinite, he was such a good boy. He always liked the picture shows, wanted to be one of the men of action featured so much on them. Him and his friends vanished some months ago , have you seen them "

And Sonic and Shadow just pulling thier collar like " uh...... "

[Wraith]

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

...Oh my god, oh my god you have.... holyshit. That might be the best infinite take I have ever seen. Like infinite is like some rich spoiled brat is someone who hired a bunch of people to hang out with him so he can be a merc going out on missions. But never really had the skill for it.

This is the best, this is the best.

And then they encounter his parents and they are like

"Oh our Ifinite, he was such a good boy. He always liked the picture shows, wanted to be one of the men of action featured so much on them. Him and his friends vanished some months ago , have you seen them "

And Sonic and Shadow just pulling thier collar like " uh...... "

His real name is definetly not Infinite. It's like Maurice or something. 

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

His real name is definetly not Infinite. It's like Maurice or something. 

YES!

Its like Faith or Hope or something.A word that means those things, or like a word for peace. Something that is like genuinely cool, but due to his perspective or rather lack thier of something he doesn't understand and has insecurities about.

3 hours ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

Given how they characterize Shadow nowadays I wouldn't be surprised if he actually did kill them

While there is a very valid point in this statement. My issue with bringing up their deaths or almost deaths? ( flynn didn't seem to know if shadow , actually killed them or not ) is that , they aren't dead because it plays into a greater narrative I feel. I feel like they just happen to be dead because they didn't really want to use those characters beyond some vague attempt to deepen infinite's character.

Its why I can't take the idea of " shadow paying for being so violent " seriously. Because it doesn't treat it with cadance of something that should be taken seriously. Or even shouldn't be taken serious. Its treated like its not finished. Like you , found the script on the ground. It is so detached from any sort of narrative theming and meaning that I people just refused to think it was true untill it was confirmed

So I think even if shadow wasn't being characterized weird, they still would have had them kill him. Because it was just to make them not exist and to explain why infinite never mentions these people who are supposedly relevant to him

[DabigRG]

8 hours ago, Wraith said:

His real name is definetly not Infinite. It's like Maurice or something. 

Actually, Iuzuka apparently said that he was called that before the Phantom Ruby.

8 hours ago, Wraith said:

His real name is definetly not Infinite. It's like Maurice or something. 

Actually, Iuzuka apparently said that he was called that before the Phantom Ruby.

[Ivo-goji]

9 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Eh, even if he did kill them. He's still not that, ontop of we have no context as to why he did that. Ontop of infinite showing now signs of that effecting his characterization whatsoever.

Uh, did we play the same game?

Infinite spends the majority of his time pontificating on how friendship and teamwork are illusory and only one's own strength matters, despite formerly being the leader of a squad that (going off the digital comic) respected him and believed in their own effectiveness as a team.  One of the most defining moments in the story is the flashback where Infinite slaughters the band of Resistance fighters the Rookie was working with, leaving the Rookie the only survivor- exactly what Shadow did to Infinite!  Sonic sees through Infinite and perceives that all of his posturing is to hide how sad and lonely he is; and of course he's sad and lonely, all his comrades are dead.

Shadow killing the Jackal Squad defines every single thing Infinite does over the course of the game, how on Earth can anyone say it had no effect on his characterization?

9 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

The people on the arc were full scientists and civilians and just strait up innocent people, the jackal squad for better or for worse decided to work with a robo dictator.

 

18 hours ago, Wraith said:

This implies that it was wrong for Shadow to do that when it wasn't.

By that logic it would be just as acceptable if Sonic killed Rouge or Shadow.  All we've seen the Jackal Squad do before Shadow fought them is 1- try to steal from Eggman and 2- defend one of his laboratories.  Rouge and Shadow helped Eggman commit massive scale terrorism, including blowing up an island with who knows how many people on it.  Every member of Team Dark should be given pause by the notion that "people affiliated with Eggman are free targets".

I absolutely do consider the situation comparable to the ARK raid.  Gerald Robotnik created a dangerous kaiju sized science project and a laser that could blow up planets; GUN thought murdering innocents was an acceptable price to bring this threat under control.  The Jackal Squad offered Dr. Eggman protection and Shadow, in an astounding act of personal hypocrisy, decided annihilating them was an acceptable price to stop the threat presented by Eggman's Phantom Ruby project.  Justifying the latter is hardly different from justifying the former.

[DabigRG]

Aaaaand we've gotten into why Forces' reflection on the series was inherently fucked.

Anyway, I guess a random idea would be to greenlight a spinoff game starring Amy.

Spoiler

I'm thinking of this one conversation that prompted the idea of putting her in a dream world where her weird idealism allows her, her hammer, and even her cards to manifest a variety of weird powers or environmental effects, some of which carrying over from what she's been involved with in the games.

 

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Ivo-goji said:

Uh, did we play the same game?

Infinite spends the majority of his time pontificating on how friendship and teamwork are illusory and only one's own strength matters, despite formerly being the leader of a squad that (going off the digital comic) respected him and believed in their own effectiveness as a team.  One of the most defining moments in the story is the flashback where Infinite slaughters the band of Resistance fighters the Rookie was working with, leaving the Rookie the only survivor- exactly what Shadow did to Infinite!  Sonic sees through Infinite and perceives that all of his posturing is to hide how sad and lonely he is; and of course he's sad and lonely, all his comrades are dead.

Shadow killing the Jackal Squad defines every single thing Infinite does over the course of the game, how on Earth can anyone say it had no effect on his characterization?

None of that requires that cut scene and works with out it. You are stretching to connect a thing obviously created way after the fact. Nor does that seen elaborate on anything you said like it does.

 

Quote

By that logic it would be just as acceptable if Sonic killed Rouge or Shadow. 

Rouge, nah. She was undercover. Shadow? Yeah kinda. Memory manipulated or not shadow was trying to blow up the planet. If someone killed him before he tried to do that then... yeah sure. It would suck , but that's morally sound.

Quote

All we've seen the Jackal Squad do before Shadow fought them is 1- try to steal from Eggman and 2- defend one of his laboratories.  Rouge and Shadow helped Eggman commit massive scale terrorism, including blowing up an island with who knows how many people on it.

Yeah. If someone wanted to kill them over that, then yeah that makes sense. Through we actually have no idea how many people were actually on hat island. And you bring up a point I had which is, we actually don't know what the jackal squad did. Which why its very strange to go " shadow is the one who caused everything " when the supposed murders aren't relevant enough to the story to be mentioned in passing more than once.

Quote

  Every member of Team Dark should be given pause by the notion that "people affiliated with Eggman are free targets".

Not at all. Omega was imprisoned and then was released. With presumably not doing anything, he was just waiting for shadow to get up.

Shadow was having his memory manipulated

And rouge was undercover.

None of them would really feel guilty over that. Well shadow does, but he doesn't take pity on himself. They wouldn't be upset if someone wanted revenge, they would get it. But they wouldn't really feel bad going after people who work for eggman, especially willing participants

 

Quote

I absolutely do consider the situation comparable to the ARK raid.  Gerald Robotnik created a dangerous kaiju sized science project and a laser that could blow up planets; GUN thought murdering innocents was an acceptable price to bring this threat under control. 

Gerald did, not everyone else. Gerald did. Shadow didn't kill everyone who worked for eggman. He took out 5 people without any context whatsoever besides " presumably they tried to kill him protecting something and he stopped them "

Those are not the same situation. And to suggest this is , is disingenuous at best

Quote

 

The Jackal Squad offered Dr. Eggman protection and Shadow, in an astounding act of personal hypocrisy, decided annihilating them was an acceptable price to stop the threat presented by Eggman's Phantom Ruby project. 

How is shadow being hypocritical. Shadow never made a vow to not kill anyone , shadow doesn't even think pity should have been taken on himself. You are making characterization up.

Quote

 

Justifying the latter is hardly different from justifying the former.

One is killing a room full of people because one person pissed you off , and the room is filled with children and other people working there who have no participation in what that one other person is doing. And you are killing them so there are no witnesses.

One is , defined with no context. But presumably, killing 4 people who tried to attack you and who are defending a robo faccist.

[Multikaris]

50 minutes ago, Ivo-goji said:

Uh, did we play the same game?

Infinite spends the majority of his time pontificating on how friendship and teamwork are illusory and only one's own strength matters, despite formerly being the leader of a squad that (going off the digital comic) respected him and believed in their own effectiveness as a team.  One of the most defining moments in the story is the flashback where Infinite slaughters the band of Resistance fighters the Rookie was working with, leaving the Rookie the only survivor- exactly what Shadow did to Infinite!  Sonic sees through Infinite and perceives that all of his posturing is to hide how sad and lonely he is; and of course he's sad and lonely, all his comrades are dead.

Shadow killing the Jackal Squad defines every single thing Infinite does over the course of the game, how on Earth can anyone say it had no effect on his characterization?

 

By that logic it would be just as acceptable if Sonic killed Rouge or Shadow.  All we've seen the Jackal Squad do before Shadow fought them is 1- try to steal from Eggman and 2- defend one of his laboratories.  Rouge and Shadow helped Eggman commit massive scale terrorism, including blowing up an island with who knows how many people on it.  Every member of Team Dark should be given pause by the notion that "people affiliated with Eggman are free targets".

I absolutely do consider the situation comparable to the ARK raid.  Gerald Robotnik created a dangerous kaiju sized science project and a laser that could blow up planets; GUN thought murdering innocents was an acceptable price to bring this threat under control.  The Jackal Squad offered Dr. Eggman protection and Shadow, in an astounding act of personal hypocrisy, decided annihilating them was an acceptable price to stop the threat presented by Eggman's Phantom Ruby project.  Justifying the latter is hardly different from justifying the former.

Sonic could have also sliced the untrusting, hostile Knuckles in half or left him for Eggman’s (lack of) mercy. The fate of the Jackal Squad does demonstrate who Shadow is, yet the Deadly... wait, it’s the 3DS version that’s canon now, isn’t it? Yeah, Shadow, as mentioned above with his crimes, is different. 

[thumbs13]

10 hours ago, Wraith said:

His real name is definetly not Infinite. It's like Maurice or something. 

I always liked the joke that his real name was equally ridiculous. Like, he used to just be called Finite before putting on the mask, but it's probably something lame.

[Ivo-goji]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

None of that requires that cut scene and works with out it. You are stretching to connect a thing obviously created way after the fact. Nor does that seen elaborate on anything you said like it does.

In no way at all does it work without Shadow killing the Jackal Squad.

Every interaction Infinite has with the Rookie is mirrored by something that happened earlier between Infinite and Shadow.

The entire point of the story is that Infinite and the Rookie suffered similar experiences but chose to cope with them differently- a theme which takes for granted that they both lost their comrades.

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Rouge, nah. She was undercover.

And she was complicit with mass murder while being undercover.

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Not at all. Omega was imprisoned and then was released. With presumably not doing anything, he was just waiting for shadow to get up.

Shadow was having his memory manipulated

And rouge was undercover.

The audience knows those things.  No one in-universe would have that context when stumbling onto Omega's bunker or witnessing Rouge rob a place for Eggman.

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Gerald did, not everyone else.

At least ten other people worked on Project Shadow and, considering the size of the thing, several hundred engineers were involved in constructing the Eclipse Cannon.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

How is shadow being hypocritical. Shadow never made a vow to not kill anyone

Oh yes he did: Shadow made a vow to give people on Earth a chance to be happy!  A vow he promised to fulfill on multiple occasions!  Destroying Eggman's robot minions is consistent with that, but having callous disregard for living people hardly is.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Shadow didn't kill everyone who worked for eggman. He took out 5 people without any context whatsoever besides " presumably they tried to kill him protecting something and he stopped them "

Those are not the same situation. And to suggest this is , is disingenuous at best

Shadow was there to stop Eggman's weapons research.  He made exactly the same kind of moral judgement in taking out the Jackal Squad for guarding Eggman's base as GUN did when they eliminated the people involved in Project Shadow.

True, he didn't go out and execute Knuckles or the Babylon Rogues for working with Eggman on past occasions, but difference between those characters and the Jackal Squad is purely circumstantial.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

One is killing a room full of people because one person pissed you off , and the room is filled with children and other people working there who have no participation in what that one other person is doing. 

Actually eleven or more scientists + several hundred engineers, not one person, and Maria is the only known child causality of the raid (the young Commander was spared for example), and she was certainly participating when Gerald entrusted Shadow to her.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

One is , defined with no context. But presumably, killing 4 people who tried to attack you and who are defending a robo faccist.

A pointless waste of life that motivated the lone survivor into becoming a super weapon who filled the world with destruction.  Thus Shadow's arc was brought full circle: he is now the thing he hates most.

[Wraith]

4 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Actually, Iuzuka apparently said that he was called that before the Phantom Ruby

Well good for him he's wrong

[DabigRG]

16 minutes ago, Ivo-goji said:

And she was complicit with mass murder while being undercover.

 

Uh, idk about that.

Sure, some people might've died when Prison Island blew up, but other than that, they weren't exactly out to spill blood.

[Ivo-goji]

3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Uh, idk about that.

Sure, some people might've died when Prison Island blew up, but other than that, they weren't exactly out to spill blood.

If there were four people killed in the explosion that would fit the definition of mass murder.