If you were in charge of the Sonic franchise

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Ivo-goji said:

In no way at all does it work without Shadow killing the Jackal Squad.

Every interaction Infinite has with the Rookie is mirrored by something that happened earlier between Infinite and Shadow.

The entire point of the story is that Infinite and the Rookie suffered similar experiences but chose to cope with them differently- a theme which takes for granted that they both lost their comrades.

You showing me things that have little effect on each other and telling me its pivotal. I can't tell you what to believe. I can tell you what I believe, that this was a last minute edition to try and add dept to a character that was already done, but was from essentially an entirely different sonic game. And it doesn't add much , nor is it relevant to the character. To the degree in which parts of his old backstory ( him being an eggman creation outright ) are literally still in the video game. The scenes you depect work perfectly in isolation, shadow is doing a job. He feels a duty doing this.

Infinite is literally a cocky asshole who craves power, and the scene that you show works perfectly fine with out the shsdow dlc. Because he's just a cocky asshole. Because he's two very different characters in the game itself and the dlc. Because the game went through some development trouble and the story changed and needed to be shortened.

Like the scene that posted litterally works fine as " Oh he's just a cocky dickhead " , because he's doing this because he wants to feel strong. Like infinite was super dedicated to serving eggman because he felt as though that power was who he was, then your connection would make sense. He would feel like its his duty , he would find power in similar areas that shadow did and there would be parallels

Sega did not put anywhere near as much effort as you are trying to suggest and if i'm to be honest, I think you owe to yourself to not force in more narrative into it. They didn't respect you enough to do the ground work , you shouldn't be working this hard for them. To connect stuff that just isn't there, they didn't respect your time.

But I can't tell you how to read this. But I will say i'm not arguing this point, because I don't see what you are talking about. Because it isn't there. But live your truth.

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And she was complicit with mass murder while being undercover.

Eh, which one?

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The audience knows those things.  No one in-universe would have that context when stumbling onto Omega's bunker or witnessing Rouge rob a place for Eggman.

Yeah? If shadow attacked them and killed them and they just happened to be around an eggman bunker. Then yes that would be really bad.

But

1) We literally have no context as to what happened and we kind of cant make a moral judgement

2)We are made to assume they tried to stop shadow from doing whatever it was he was doing , and he stopped them. Which more antagonistic than your suggestion describes. Your example are essentially two people minding their own business.

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At least ten other people worked on Project Shadow and, considering the size of the thing, several hundred engineers were involved in constructing the Eclipse Cannon.

Gonna need a source on that first part. A post Shadow's game source. Because as of shadow's game unless i'm remembering wrong the only two people who worked on shadow are named Gerald and Black Doom.

As for the latter that believable. Gonna need a source, but also IIRC could be wrong but the eclipse canon was originally a thing gun wanted.

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Oh yes he did: Shadow made a vow to give people on Earth a chance to be happy!  A vow he promised to fulfill on multiple occasions!  Destroying Eggman's robot minions is consistent with that, but having callous disregard for living people hardly is.

He made a vow to protect the world . He didn't say he wasn't going to kill anyone to do that. That's how interprets that, that's really the end of it. If you have an issue with how he interprets that, that's cool but that's a different argument.

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Shadow was there to stop Eggman's weapons research.  He made exactly the same kind of moral judgement in taking out the Jackal Squad for guarding Eggman's base as GUN did when they eliminated the people involved in Project Shadow.

We literally don't know that. There's not enough information.

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True, he didn't go out and execute Knuckles or the Babylon Rogues for working with Eggman on past occasions, but difference between those characters and the Jackal Squad is purely circumstantial.

The circumstance is  those characters don't matter and needed to be written out of the story so they had shadow kill them. And you aren't supposed to think that hard. They certainly didn't.

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Actually eleven or more scientists + several hundred engineers, not one person, and Maria is the only known child causality of the raid (the young Commander was spared for example), and she was certainly participating when Gerald entrusted Shadow to her.

 

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A pointless waste of life that motivated the lone survivor into becoming a super weapon who filled the world with destruction.  Thus Shadow's arc was brought full circle: he is now the thing he hates most.

So please forgive me if this sounds harsh.

Holy crap you missed the entire point of shadow's story. Wow. Like how did you do that. Not only did you miss the point , i'm now going to explain to you what the point is and incriminate infinite harder than ever before. Thank you for this opportunity.

Ok, so I guess I need to explain to you shadow's story.

Shadow had his memories manipulated. It caused him to want to destroy the planet, when his memories were corrected. Guess what he did? He decided NOT TO DO THAT. He made a choice, he made decision to not be a weapon of destruction but to be vessel for peace. He choice despite his horrible circumstances to do the right thing. Shadow chose, you know why? Because the entire point of his story is that you shouldn't be guided mindlessly through shit. You have to make your own decision to be better even if your life was bad. You have to be a better person. You know what infinite did after that, willingly with no manipulation whatsoever . THE OPPOSITE THING SHADOW DID, he did that WILLINGLY . He did that by himself . He could have just went after shadow, he could have done so many things but he chose to help a fascist take over the world. With no manipulation whatsoever. Someone who was a full grown adult, who grew up on this planet who still made that choice.

Vs a science experiment who if we are looking at lore is like , a week old. Who's first memories is seeing his family die. Who was trapped in a basement for 50 years, who has no context of the planet who houses the people he hates. If he still wanted to destroy the planet with no manipulation whatsoever, I would have gotten that. But after he gets his memories back in order he goes " Oh shit, I fucked up i'm gonna fix it " and at the time, presumably sacrificed his life to do so. He later survives. But he was willing to do that.

So you are telling me these things are the same? Are you serious?

 

I do not believe that you read a character, like shadow, a character who's entire everything including his video game MAIN MECHANIC, is about choice like that. Even when his character has changed choice has always been his thing. In the comic recently his beef with sonic is that he felt like eggman chose to be a shit person, a dictator. And if left to his own devices would be come his regular self and choose to be shit again. He has always been about choice.

You are trying to connect some shit that isn't real to the degree where you have arbitrary decided a character who's whole theme is choice , suddly isn't about that

 

 

[thumbs13]

While Infinite killing the Rookie's friends would parallel Shadow doing the same, that probably wasn't intended because Infinite was heavily implied to be a creation of Eggman in the game itself. It wasn't obvious, and I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking Shadow just knocked the Jackal squad out.

[Almar]

Implied nothing. He's referred to as a creation of Eggman. Which is backed up by the pods in Eggman's base and the early script.

[StaticMania]

25 minutes ago, Almar said:

Implied nothing. He's referred to as a creation of Eggman. Which is backed up by the pods in Eggman's base and the early script.

Yeah, exactly like they said -- heavily implied.

[Ivo-goji]

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I can tell you what I believe, that this was a last minute edition to try and add dept to a character that was already done, but was from essentially an entirely different sonic game. And it doesn't add much , nor is it relevant to the character.

It absolutely is relevant.  Episode Shadow and the e-comic are Infinite's canon backstory.  The player is supposed to interpret Infinite's actions in light of those materials.  They weren't added to the game a year later or something, they were all part of the same narrative as it was presented at launch, produced by the same group of writers.

It isn't limited to Infinite's character either, the whole story is built around details that are only discussed in the supplemental material.  Why is Omega damaged at the beginning of the game?  The player never finds out unless they download Episode Shadow.  How did Eggman get the original Phantom Ruby?  We're expected to read the digital comic to learn more.  Why is Silver there?  Only explained in the comic.

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

To the degree in which parts of his old backstory ( him being an eggman creation outright ) are literally still in the video game.

Which doesn't contradict Episode Shadow, where Infinite waxes poetic about how his old self died and was reborn as a vessel for harnessing the Phantom Ruby.

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Infinite is literally a cocky asshole who craves power, and the scene that you show works perfectly fine with out the shsdow dlc.

Only if you ignore everything he says about friendship being an illusion and how people can rely on no one but themselves, while Sonic and the Rookie are harping on the value of teamwork, the core theme of the entire game.

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Like the scene that posted litterally works fine as " Oh he's just a cocky dickhead " , because he's doing this because he wants to feel strong.

Do you have an argument beyond "I want Infinite to be a shallow character, therefore ignore everything established about him in supporting materials"?

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Sega did not put anywhere near as much effort as you are trying to suggest and if i'm to be honest, I think you owe to yourself to not force in more narrative into it. They didn't respect you enough to do the ground work , you shouldn't be working this hard for them. To connect stuff that just isn't there, they didn't respect your time.

Or maybe you're just not giving SEGA enough credit and it actually doesn't take much thought to go beyond a surface-level interpretation of the narrative?

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

But I can't tell you how to read this. But I will say i'm not arguing this point, because I don't see what you are talking about. Because it isn't there. But live your truth.

Lmao, I'll keep that in mind next time you tell us about Mephiles being a Black Arms entity.

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

2)We are made to assume they tried to stop shadow from doing whatever it was he was doing , and he stopped them. Which more antagonistic than your suggestion describes. Your example are essentially two people minding their own business.

Omega being Omega in his bunker isn't Omega minding his own business (not for very long anyway).

Rouge carrying out a robbery definitely isn't Rouge minding her own business.

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Gonna need a source on that first part.

Behold, Shadow's game.

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Gonna need a source, but also IIRC could be wrong but the eclipse canon was originally a thing gun wanted.

GUN explicitly had no control over the research conducted aboard the ARK and distrusted the scientists working there for that reason.  

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

He didn't say he wasn't going to kill anyone to do that. That's how interprets that, that's really the end of it. If you have an issue with how he interprets that, that's cool but that's a different argument.

Shadow spent all of Sonic Battle mulling over the tension between protecting the world by killing potential threats (in this case Emerl) and doing what he knows Maria would actually want him to do, and in the end he chose not to kill.

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

The circumstance is  those characters don't matter and needed to be written out of the story so they had shadow kill them.

"I think these characters matter and these other characters don't so killing them is ok" isn't an argument.

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

He made a choice, he made decision to not be a weapon of destruction but to be vessel for peace

This was true up til around Generations or so.  In recent games Shadow seems less interested in being a vessel of peace than in being powerful for power's sake, being better than Sonic just because he can, fighting because it proves how superior the Ultimate Life Form is, etc.  Does this surprise you?  Shadow being confronted with temptation to use his powers selfishly is also a constant theme across his appearances; Battle, ShtH, 06.  He didn't decide to be good once then live happily ever after.

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

He has always been about choice.

Yes. And some of his choices are evil.

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

You are trying to connect some shit that isn't real to the degree where you have arbitrary decided a character who's whole theme is choice , suddly isn't about that

And you are trying to ignore Episode Shadow and what it implies about him to preserve a notion of the character's integrity, when objectively what Shadow did was pretty terrible.

[Wraith]

This franchise is not shy about offing characters. If a death isn't confirmed explicitly you can assume it didn't happen. 

If Shadow was actually the executioner you're describing him as he would have offed Infinite but he actively chose to let him go multiple times. This plain text says more about Shadow's character than anything the game "implies".

[Shadowlax]

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

It absolutely is relevant.  Episode Shadow and the e-comic are Infinite's canon backstory. 

 

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

The player is supposed to interpret Infinite's actions in light of those materials. 

 

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

They weren't added to the game a year later or something, they were all part of the same narrative as it was presented at launch, produced by the same group of writers.

I don't know if you know how DLC works. But its often made way after the games kinda like done and folks have extra time during development. Sometimes its planned out from jump because people want " service " games. But this isn't that.

So yeah it was added on way later actually. To try and change a character direction because as infinite stood in the story with his previous backstory he wasn't much of a character. The DLC didn't help , and  it characterized him completely differently than he was before.

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

It isn't limited to Infinite's character either, the whole story is built around details that are only discussed in the supplemental material.  Why is Omega damaged at the beginning of the game?

 

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

The player never finds out unless they download Episode Shadow. 

 

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

How did Eggman get the original Phantom Ruby?  We're expected to read the digital comic to learn more.  Why is Silver there?  Only explained in the comic.

Silver's there because they want him to be there, and the original story they planned mephilies is there.

The supplementary material is there to  try to explain descions that were made earlier in development that didn't make sense for what the game was at the end of its development. And doesn't really do that well. Its not built around that, the supplementary material is covering up holes in the plot. Or at least trying to.

Why is omega destroyed, something in the orginal game had him be blown up. That didn't happen , made a comic to try and give it a new explanation.

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Which doesn't contradict Episode Shadow, where Infinite waxes poetic about how his old self died and was reborn as a vessel for harnessing the Phantom Ruby.

It does because its in a facility filled with pods that look like infinite, which implies that he's on some mass production line. His original backstory in that sense would have actually done the thing you said , would have made him similar to shadow and sympathetic , but that was removed.

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Only if you ignore everything he says about friendship being an illusion and how people can rely on no one but themselves, while Sonic and the Rookie are harping on the value of teamwork, the core theme of the entire game.

None of those thinsg require that DLC . Works fine in isolation.

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Do you have an argument beyond "I want Infinite to be a shallow character, therefore ignore everything established about him in supporting materials"?

I don't want infinite to be a shallow character. I don't want sonic games to be bad. But i'm looking at the material and forces is shallow and bad.

Do you have an argument besides "So I have this fanfiction.... "

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Or maybe you're just not giving SEGA enough credit and it actually doesn't take much thought to go beyond a surface-level interpretation of the narrative?

I'll give sega credit, when it is warranted. They don't deserve it for forces. And I respect myself enough not to try and contort what little story is their into a narrative that the game itself didn't try enough to make.

Sometimes things just suck. And that's it.

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Lmao, I'll keep that in mind next time you tell us about Mephiles being a Black Arms entity.

There's a difference between " Oh hey i learned some things about some of these games development and I Think this was originally supposed to be something else  " a theory that in itself acknowledges that the martial being discussed isn't actually in or relevant to the game, but rather may have informed some of the games decisions by what was left in. A theory that acknowledges the fact that will most likely never be and never has been relevant or brought up.

Vs

Theory suggesting that a bunch of things that aren't relevant to eachother is actually some coherent grand plot despite the game not really trying to make it be.

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Omega being Omega in his bunker isn't Omega minding his own business (not for very long anyway).

Actually if shadow hadn't been released he would still be sleep. So yeah minding his own business.

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Rouge carrying out a robbery definitely isn't Rouge minding her own business.

It is, if you decide to kill someone robbing a bank because you think you are the executioner, you are essentially trying to kill someone who was minding their business. They were doing crime, but they were minding their own business.

 

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Shadow spent all of Sonic Battle mulling over the tension between protecting the world by killing potential threats (in this case Emerl) and doing what he knows Maria would actually want him to do, and in the end he chose not to kill.

Game's not canon because shadow's game retcon's that and him even remembering maria.

Shadow's very ok with murder in his game.

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

"I think these characters matter and these other characters don't so killing them is ok" isn't an argument.

Me, yeah your right. Can be used as an argumentative frame work but not an argument itself.

The people who created the work making it very clear that they don't matter to the degree they had them killed of screen, they don't have names, they don't want them refereed in subsequent sequel material like the comic are not referenced to their killers character. And aren't even that relevant to the game they are supposed to be relevant to, because infinite fails to mention them even once.

That is an argument , and argument the people who made those characters or at least commissioned them to be made, don't care. And do not think you should be assigning moral judgements for their deaths. They don't even want them to be referenced in relation to their killer, that's how much they don't care.

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

This was true up til around Generations or so.  In recent games Shadow seems less interested in being a vessel of peace than in being powerful for power's sake, being better than Sonic just because he can, fighting because it proves how superior the Ultimate Life Form is, etc.  Does this surprise you?  Shadow being confronted with temptation to use his powers selfishly is also a constant theme across his appearances; Battle, ShtH, 06.  He didn't decide to be good once then live happily ever after.

I mean that sucks what you talking about, but there is literally no context to their deaths. You can keep trying to keep justifying it to support your theory on shadow's character. But at the end of the day, there isn't enough information. Because those characters aren't important enough to the people in charge to allow that to shape shadow at all.

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Yes. And some of his choices are evil.

Sure I guess?

5 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

And you are trying to ignore Episode Shadow and what it implies about him to preserve a notion of the character's integrity, when objectively what Shadow did was pretty terrible.

Doesn't really imply anything. They are dead because the plot didn't need them around and infinite is alive because the plot demands him to be. As @Wraith said, he just lets infinite go. GUN didn't let shadow go, they trapped him. They did the opposite of that.  There's no implication about the characters integrity because it says nothing. Those characters are dead because they didn't need to be around not because its some grand criticism of shadow.

And here's the rub, I LIKE your idea. I like the idea of shadow being confronted on being too harsh and maybe the response to his methodology is " I don't want you protecting us " and maybe shadow learns to chill a bit and the people kinda appreciate shadow when he leaves because maybe shit hits the fan too hard . But I like the idea of that narrative. Its just... you know, not in this game. This games's story is an unfinished script, those characters are dead because the game needed them to be dead. Because story needed silver to not use his telekinesis , like how the story needed ifinite to only make copies of bad guys , like how the story needed sonic to not have broken out in those 6 months, like how it needed shadow to vanish, and how the story needed infinite despite showing no signs of being able to do this prior " Pull a sun out of his ass" .There's no explanation, there's no context for these things, they happen because the story needs to happen and are easily seen through.

Nothing in that DLC and the comic actually means anything to the main game, a game who's plot already means nothing, who's existence is being ignored.Those characters were never relevant and will never have any effect on shadows character ever. And that's it, that's the end of it.

[Wraith]

ANYWAY, @Shadowlax What if Infinite found a Black Arms weapon and that lead into the next Shadow story? Tying the two threads together. 

[Shadowlax]

4 hours ago, Wraith said:

ANYWAY, @Shadowlax What if Infinite found a Black Arms weapon and that lead into the next Shadow story? Tying the two threads together. 

That's interesting. But I would like need him to do research on like what it is and find out about project shadow and stuff. I feel like an interesting angle is him feeling as though shadow cheated. Like he had to sacrifice his...humanity? Mobanity? Something, to become who he was and shadow was just born or created to be that way. And that's like the core of his aggression. Making shadow to be other, heck if it were retconned to have Shadows take place on animal planet infinite could maybe trick people into thinking shadow was actually the bad guy and not him. Suggesting that he needed to take a strong man approach to controlling the world to save them from the aliens, obviously not everyone would buy it but enough to make things kinda dicey. Maybe some of the other characters suggest he stay in human land for a while, play on shadows insecurities make him think he's  a monster.

Eventually the tale ends like many a resident evil villian which is , Infinite use the weapon but his DNA isnt compatible because he's not a black arms and it turns him into some grotesque monster and shadow defeats him. He returns to normal only to learn that the weapon was a beacon and by shadow beating it up his dna was compatible for obvious reasons and now more black arms are being called. Maybe a sequel hook in that. Or maybe they are just benevolent .

I'm sorry. You had an idea and I just made an entire thing

Your idea is cool.Sorry about that

[Splash the Otter]

Like others here have said, I would hard reboot the series, keeping only the characters and elements I like or could like given the right changes. In addition, I would:

-Bring back the Adventure formula, permanently this time.

-Have exactly one world, which is inhabited by anthropomorphic animals.

-Focus more on worldbuilding, storytelling.and developing the characters.

-Discontinue the Classic/Mania universe, but keep Mighty, Ray and Fang.

-Change Eggman to a fennec fox and Silver to a ferret from Blaze's kingdom.

-Have a large and varied rogue's gallery instead of always using the Egg Empire.

-Add Rough and Tumble to the games because I really like them.

-While we're at it, maybe buy the rights to my favorite Archie Sonic characters too.

-Establish that everyone has potential for a Super form, not just male hedgehogs.

-Do more with the extended cast, like making them actually playable.

-Related to the above, create spinoff games for characters who aren't Sonic.

-Experiment with other genres and gameplay styles like Mario does.

I honestly don't care if the franchise would collapse under my direction. What matters is that I'd be doing things my way.

As for the Freedom Fighters, I won't beat around the bush: I still resent that they got to survive the Super Genesis when my favorites didn't, so they wouldn't be in my new and improved Sonic universe.

15 hours ago, Wraith said:

His real name is definetly not Infinite. It's like Maurice or something. 

5 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

I always liked the joke that his real name was equally ridiculous. Like, he used to just be called Finite before putting on the mask, but it's probably something lame.

I follow the headcanon that his real name is Zero. Not only is that what he was originally going to be called, but it's fitting because he wants to distance himself from his past, and what's the opposite of zero? That's right, infinity.

[Nintenboi]

If I owned the Sonic franchise I would get rid of Modern Sonic. I think the tone and style of the Classic Sonic media fits a series about a fast blue hedgehog fighting mad doctor much more. But some Modern characters will be changed to fit in with the Classic characters.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Splash the Otter said:

As for the Freedom Fighters, I won't beat around the bush: I still resent that they got to survive the Super Genesis when my favorites didn't, so they wouldn't be in my new and improved Sonic universe.

That was Penders fault, not the Freedom Fighters—don’t scapegoat them for someone else’s actions. They survived because they weren’t in any legal limbo having already been established before Penders was even onboard to make those favorites.

[Dr. Detective]

Considering that the comic died anyway, they didn't really survive for long regardless.

[Multikaris]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 5:42 PM, Ivo-goji said:

In no way at all does it work without Shadow killing the Jackal Squad.

Every interaction Infinite has with the Rookie is mirrored by something that happened earlier between Infinite and Shadow.

The entire point of the story is that Infinite and the Rookie suffered similar experiences but chose to cope with them differently- a theme which takes for granted that they both lost their comrades.

And she was complicit with mass murder while being undercover.

The audience knows those things.  No one in-universe would have that context when stumbling onto Omega's bunker or witnessing Rouge rob a place for Eggman.

At least ten other people worked on Project Shadow and, considering the size of the thing, several hundred engineers were involved in constructing the Eclipse Cannon.

Oh yes he did: Shadow made a vow to give people on Earth a chance to be happy!  A vow he promised to fulfill on multiple occasions!  Destroying Eggman's robot minions is consistent with that, but having callous disregard for living people hardly is.

Shadow was there to stop Eggman's weapons research.  He made exactly the same kind of moral judgement in taking out the Jackal Squad for guarding Eggman's base as GUN did when they eliminated the people involved in Project Shadow.

True, he didn't go out and execute Knuckles or the Babylon Rogues for working with Eggman on past occasions, but difference between those characters and the Jackal Squad is purely circumstantial.

Actually eleven or more scientists + several hundred engineers, not one person, and Maria is the only known child causality of the raid (the young Commander was spared for example), and she was certainly participating when Gerald entrusted Shadow to her.

A pointless waste of life that motivated the lone survivor into becoming a super weapon who filled the world with destruction.  Thus Shadow's arc was brought full circle: he is now the thing he hates most.

Again, while Rouge was committing high treason, Knuckles in his first appearance attempted to murder a child using a bomb when at Launch Base Zone. (To be fair, he was on his last nerve) He also later attempted this with a boulder in Lava Reef, though whether Tails was there canonically is unclear. Shadow becoming the very thing he hates should have been acknowledged. 

[thumbs13]

4 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Again, while Rouge was committing high treason, Knuckles in his first appearance attempted to murder a child using a bomb when at Launch Base Zone. (To be fair, he was on his last nerve) He also later attempted this with a boulder in Lava Reef, though whether Tails was there canonically is unclear. Shadow becoming the very thing he hates should have been acknowledged. 

Shadow hating murderers/attempted murderers was never an established character trait. He hated people in general in his debut, but he's not Batman. He's just a guy who made a snap decision one time.

[Ivo-goji]

On 10/22/2019 at 6:00 AM, Wraith said:

This franchise is not shy about offing characters. If a death isn't confirmed explicitly you can assume it didn't happen. 

"The defense squad Team Jackal has already been annihilated! All units, attack by any means necessary!"

How is this not explicit?

On 10/22/2019 at 7:51 AM, Shadowlax said:

So yeah it was added on way later actually.

It was released on November 7, 2017, the same day as the main game.

And the Sonic Forces digital comic was released a month earlier.

On 10/22/2019 at 7:51 AM, Shadowlax said:

The supplementary material is there to  try to explain descions that were made earlier in development that didn't make sense for what the game was at the end of its development.

They were developed at the same time and released on the same day.

Your position regarding the relationship between the final game and the supporting material is based purely on your opinion about the quality of the story and not substantiated by any information we have about how it developed or the order in which the content was finalized.

On 10/22/2019 at 7:51 AM, Shadowlax said:

It does because its in a facility filled with pods that look like infinite, which implies that he's on some mass production line.

The same pods which are visible in Episode Shadow:

Talking about how he cast his old self away and was reborn, no less.

But nah, there can't possibly be any connection between what Infinite's saying and what we see in the room around him, that's just a totally esoteric and obscure line of reasoning.

On 10/22/2019 at 7:51 AM, Shadowlax said:

None of those thinsg require that DLC . Works fine in isolation.

If that were the case, then why is the entire exchange between Sonic Infinite about friendship being an illusion/Infinite masking his own loneliness absent from the initial draft of Makoto Goya's script for Forces?

The only reason that dialogue is in the game is to tie into Infinite's characterization as depicted in Episode Shadow.  If you don't think so, simply produce evidence that this exchange was already part of Forces before Episode Shadow was written.

On 10/22/2019 at 7:51 AM, Shadowlax said:

Do you have an argument besides "So I have this fanfiction.... "

I've had someone tell me Harry Potter doesn't contain commentary about racism and people who thought it did were just spinning fanfiction.

This conversation isn't quite as nonsensical as that one, but it's still pretty baffling.

On 10/22/2019 at 7:51 AM, Shadowlax said:

And I respect myself enough not to try and contort what little story is their into a narrative that the game itself didn't try enough to make.

>Infinite's backstory involves his teammates being killed by Shadow

>Sonic says Infinite's actions are motivated by how sad and lonely he is

Conclusion: Infinite is sad and lonely because Shadow killed his teammates.

"Gee wiz look at how much you're contorting the narrative"

This simply is not the crazy off-the-wall concept you've made it out to be and I have not seen any tangible evidence to support the argument that the presence of these elements in the game was unintentional.

On 10/22/2019 at 7:51 AM, Shadowlax said:

Theory suggesting that a bunch of things that aren't relevant to eachother is actually some coherent grand plot despite the game not really trying to make it be.

And the assertion that Episode Shadow is irrelevant to interpreting the rest of Forces is just as untrue as the last time you said it.

On 10/22/2019 at 7:51 AM, Shadowlax said:

It is, if you decide to kill someone robbing a bank because you think you are the executioner, you are essentially trying to kill someone who was minding their business.

Not the bank's business, apparently.

Logic of the highest order.

On 10/22/2019 at 7:51 AM, Shadowlax said:

Game's not canon because shadow's game retcon's that and him even remembering maria.

Sonic Channel says otherwise.

On 10/22/2019 at 7:51 AM, Shadowlax said:

And aren't even that relevant to the game they are supposed to be relevant to, because infinite fails to mention them even once.

Except for that exchange with Sonic where they're clearly talking about how Infinite lost his teammates, which contrary to what you've assumed was not part of the early development stages of the story, but was included after the storyline was revised to incorporate tie-in media like Mania and Episode Shadow.

On 10/22/2019 at 7:51 AM, Shadowlax said:

Because those characters aren't important enough to the people in charge to allow that to shape shadow at all.

SEGA's approach to Shadow in recent games besides Forces and their mandates about his characterization in IDW have already cemented him as more ruthless and self-interested than he was in the mid 2000s. This is still true even if you chose to trivialize the impact of his actions in Episode Shadow- only the most notable thing Shadow has done in years.

On 10/22/2019 at 7:51 AM, Shadowlax said:

Those characters are dead because they didn't need to be around not because its some grand criticism of shadow.

They are dead in order to motivate their leader into becoming Infinite.  That isn't a criticism of Shadow, but it is an indictment: SEGA considers Shadow someone they can readily use to generate motivating tragedy for another character, which is the same role GUN played in Shadow's own backstory.  Now instead of doing that they could have created an organic continuation of his development in 06, but this didn't happen.  We are left with the Shadow who recklessly abuses his abilities without considering the consequences that follow.

On 10/22/2019 at 7:51 AM, Shadowlax said:

And here's the rub, I LIKE your idea. I like the idea of shadow being confronted on being too harsh and maybe the response to his methodology is " I don't want you protecting us " and maybe shadow learns to chill a bit and the people kinda appreciate shadow when he leaves because maybe shit hits the fan too hard . But I like the idea of that narrative.

Then you'll be delighted when the next Sonic game further explores these aspects of Shadow's psychology and how his actions shaped Infinite, since my interpretation of Forces is objectively correct.

Of course knowing SEGA the next Sonic game will probably have Zavok as the main villain or something equally ridiculous and not reference Forces in any meaningful way at all, but even if that happens I'll stick with my intuitions. I've been vindicated before.

On 10/22/2019 at 7:51 AM, Shadowlax said:

Nothing in that DLC and the comic actually means anything to the main game, a game who's plot already means nothing, who's existence is being ignored.Those characters were never relevant and will never have any effect on shadows character ever. And that's it, that's the end of it.

A emotionally charged conclusion, easily refuted by the evidence at hand.

[Wraith]

41 minutes ago, Ivo-goji said:

"The defense squad Team Jackal has already been annihilated! All units, attack by any means necessary!"

How is this not explicit?

 

They are being deliberately vague about the extent to which Shadow harmed them when the deaths of other characters in the series are pretty clear cut. Tikal and Chaos go to heaven. We've had to have seen Maria shot from 3 different angles at this point. Gerald was executed by a firing squad. Black Doom and the entire Black Comet is blown to hell with the eclipse cannon. 

These are all things we saw. When it comes to the subject of Jackal Squad the game shied away from any visuals and uses deliberately vague wording such as "destroyed" or "annihilated". This is the fanbase that seemed convinced that the Deadly Six were dead in Lost World based on similarly loose circumstances and wording.

If this is supposed to be an equivelant to the Ark raid the game is surprisingly short on details or the type of framing one uses for a tragedy. What happened to the Jackal Squad simply isn't treated like it matters within the game itself compared to Infinite's feelings of weakness and isolation. 

But I'm gonna give you some credit here and go with your interpretation: even if Shadow deliberately chose to murder the the Jackal Squad, he did it with the knowledge that they were soldiers who were prepared to fight for their cause: helping a supervillain move his world domination along. The mercenary life is a choice, and Jackal Squad chose to fight under the banner of one of the most hated men on the planet.

GUN murdered scientists and civilians working towards common good. People that they could have simply taken in without a fight. They shot a child that was disarmed and innocent. It's safe to assume based off the fact that Shadow let infinite go twice once  that he's operating off of efficiency and not cruelty. Can you say the same for GUN, who murdered anyone related to project Shadow indiscriminately? It's not like Shadow seeks out Infinite's relatives in his freetime.

After Shadow the Hedgehog we know Gerald's intentions were good while Eggman has always been pure evil. Considering all of this context, can you really say the two situations are comparable? Of course not. If you want to write a story about Shadow abusing his powers to the extent that GUN did, I suggest just starting from scratch.

[DabigRG]

Infinite's back story with Jackal Squad and Shadow was indeed added later in development, enough for it to be set up by the tie-in comics that typically take up to six months to produce, but not in the nearly finalized script that the game's cutscenes would be based on. SEGA saw an opportunity to have #2 Shadow in the spotlight and with a connection to Infinite because that's how stories with him tended to go, so they made Episode Shadow to partly revise Infinite in the process. Though Forces was rewritten numerous times on the cheap and will hopefully not come up again any time soon, the game was handled by SonicTeam of Japan again and thus that is indeed the vessel's motivation now. 

[Plasme]

I think the context of Forces is important. It's a game where Eggman is torturing Somic before killing him and where Tails has gone insane from grief. At least in the English translation.

So you can understand why people would interpret Shadow destroying Infinite's men as killing them. Especially because the game handles such themes so poorly.

[Shadowlax]

I would make sonic a closer shade of blue to classic sonic because I liked his blue better

[Multikaris]

8 hours ago, Wraith said:

They are being deliberately vague about the extent to which Shadow harmed them when the deaths of other characters in the series are pretty clear cut. Tikal and Chaos go to heaven. We've had to have seen Maria shot from 3 different angles at this point. Gerald was executed by a firing squad. Black Doom and the entire Black Comet is blown to hell with the eclipse cannon. 

These are all things we saw. When it comes to the subject of Jackal Squad the game shied away from any visuals and uses deliberately vague wording such as "destroyed" or "annihilated". This is the fanbase that seemed convinced that the Deadly Six were dead in Lost World based on similarly loose circumstances and wording.

If this is supposed to be an equivelant to the Ark raid the game is surprisingly short on details or the type of framing one uses for a tragedy. What happened to the Jackal Squad simply isn't treated like it matters within the game itself compared to Infinite's feelings of weakness and isolation. 

But I'm gonna give you some credit here and go with your interpretation: even if Shadow deliberately chose to murder the the Jackal Squad, he did it with the knowledge that they were soldiers who were prepared to fight for their cause: helping a supervillain move his world domination along. The mercenary life is a choice, and Jackal Squad chose to fight under the banner of one of the most hated men on the planet.

GUN murdered scientists and civilians working towards common good. People that they could have simply taken in without a fight. They shot a child that was disarmed and innocent. It's safe to assume based off the fact that Shadow let infinite go twice once  that he's operating off of efficiency and not cruelty. Can you say the same for GUN, who murdered anyone related to project Shadow indiscriminately? It's not like Shadow seeks out Infinite's relatives in his freetime.

After Shadow the Hedgehog we know Gerald's intentions were good while Eggman has always been pure evil. Considering all of this context, can you really say the two situations are comparable? Of course not. If you want to write a story about Shadow abusing his powers to the extent that GUN did, I suggest just starting from scratch.

Well, to be fair, the Six merely ran away in the 3DS version. The Jackal Squad never got that mercy.

[DabigRG]

4 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Well, to be fair, the Six merely ran away in the 3DS version. The Jackal Squad never got that mercy.

The Jackal Squad never even got models.

[Wraith]

On 10/22/2019 at 2:17 PM, Shadowlax said:

That's interesting. But I would like need him to do research on like what it is and find out about project shadow and stuff. I feel like an interesting angle is him feeling as though shadow cheated. Like he had to sacrifice his...humanity? Mobanity? Something, to become who he was and shadow was just born or created to be that way. And that's like the core of his aggression. Making shadow to be other, heck if it were retconned to have Shadows take place on animal planet infinite could maybe trick people into thinking shadow was actually the bad guy and not him. Suggesting that he needed to take a strong man approach to controlling the world to save them from the aliens, obviously not everyone would buy it but enough to make things kinda dicey. Maybe some of the other characters suggest he stay in human land for a while, play on shadows insecurities make him think he's  a monster.

Eventually the tale ends like many a resident evil villian which is , Infinite use the weapon but his DNA isnt compatible because he's not a black arms and it turns him into some grotesque monster and shadow defeats him. He returns to normal only to learn that the weapon was a beacon and by shadow beating it up his dna was compatible for obvious reasons and now more black arms are being called. Maybe a sequel hook in that. Or maybe they are just benevolent .

I'm sorry. You had an idea and I just made an entire thing

Your idea is cool.Sorry about that

I mean the beacon idea was something I was already thinking. Or maybe the weapon is controlling Infinite subconsciously to activate a device that would create a portal from whatever the Black Arms homeworld is to there. 

I feel like Shadow's reputation degrading has to play into the plot somehow but Shadow pretty publically saved the world in his game, so it'd have to be something else. Perhaps Infinite activates something in Shadow that makes him publicly lose control, and the fallout from that incident colors his reception for the rest of the story.

[Shadowlax]

8 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I mean the beacon idea was something I was already thinking. Or maybe the weapon is controlling Infinite subconsciously to activate a device that would create a portal from whatever the Black Arms homeworld is to there. 

Instant invasion, just put it the virtual reality microwave for 5 minutes and you got yourself a planet to conquer. A whole serving!

8 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I feel like Shadow's reputation degrading has to play into the plot somehow but Shadow pretty publically saved the world in his game, so it'd have to be something else. Perhaps Infinite activates something in Shadow that makes him publicly lose control, and the fallout from that incident colors his reception for the rest of the story.

Well, two things. The public can be swayed. But more importantly. He saved the HUMAN world. Now that these things are separate. While he's a known entity, I would imagine the people of this world...aren't too familiar with him. The black arms were apperently familiar with chaos emeralds and black doom could use chaos control. Who's to say they weren't warping between worlds 2000 years ago ( Actual timeline number didn't make that up ) . Shadow doesn't have maybe the open air reputation that a lot of the other heroes does. He skulks around in the darkness, like his name sake. This could be used to the advantage of someone who is tying to change public perception. And its already kind of set up. Whenever comic specific character(s) are talking about characters with reverence, shadow is never mentioned. They seemed prepped to not like him, or at least not know enough about him to be swayed into not liking him.

And having him loose control would be a pretty good way to do that.

But I don't think it would just have an effect on shadow. I can see other characters reflecting on this. Like could that sort of public turn happen to them and what would they do if put into that situation. Everyone can have a big ol' think

[Splash the Otter]

On 10/22/2019 at 7:11 PM, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

That was Penders fault, not the Freedom Fighters—don’t scapegoat them for someone else’s actions. They survived because they weren’t in any legal limbo having already been established before Penders was even onboard to make those favorites.

I don't care whose fault it is. The Freedom Fighters would do nothing but remind me of what I lost, so I'm not allowing them in my ideal universe.