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Dr. Mechano

Dr. Eggman's Good Deeds

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Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik: Nemesis of Sonic the Hedgehog and would-be conqueror of the world. For almost thirty years, this man's turned animals into robots, unearthed ancient monsters, and threatened the planet with doomsday weapon after doomsday weapon. In short, he's a villain's villain. A true bad egg. 

But rather than celebrate his feats of villainy, I wanted to talk about the rare times across the franchise that Eggman has performed truly good acts. We recently had a topic about Sonic's moral limits, and about what morally questionable things he would or wouldn't be willing to do. Now let's talk about the opposite! Eggman's capacity to care, to show kindness, to help others.

Now, I want to clarify what I mean here. For the sake of this list:

  • I will not be including Eggman teaming up with the heroes to save the world. These acts of "goodness" inherently carry an ulterior motive; That being to save himself and make sure there's still a world for him to conquer. Plus, half the time it's one of his own schemes going out of control anyway. So just saving the world in and of itself won't make the cut for the purpose of my post.
  • I will also not be including a mere lack of cruelty as "goodness." You don't get a cookie for feeding your prisoners or not torturing people. So while I do think the times where Eggman's lack of cruelty has been pointed out (such as in Unleashed) are important, they're not what I'm talking about either.

I'm specifically talking about times when Eggman does something kind, or helpful, or selfless toward others without some villainous ulterior motive. I will also be including spinoff material, since the majority of these examples come from those rather than the games. So! With that out of the way, let's begin!

 

Sonic Lost World - Eggman saves Tails

 

Now, I mentioned that merely teaming up with the heroes doesn't warrant a mention. But I think this goes beyond that.

Tails attaches Cubot's head to a Crabmeat, which causes Cubot to become very aggressive, attacking Tails. Eggman - without a moment to think or evaluate the situation - immediately leaps into harm's way and shoves Tails to safety, honoring his truce with his enemies by putting his own safety on the line to protect them.

Now, you could make the argument that Eggman is only keeping Tails around because he needs him for Sonic to take care of the Zeti (which could also be an argument for Eggman saving Sonic himself later in the same game), but consider: A.) How spur-of-the-moment this was; Eggman didn't have time to calculate how he could use this situation to his advantage, and just leaped as soon as Tails was in danger, and B.) He put himself at risk to save someone else.

Yes, by the end of the game - after the terms of their truce were met, with the Zeti defeated and the machine disabled - Eggman goes right back to fighting them. But during their time working together, Eggman is an honorable ally who ultimately saves Tails's and Sonic's lives. I feel like this goes beyond simply helping them out of necessity and warrants mentioning here.

As Eggman himself put it, he's "a complicated guy."

 

Sonic X - Eggman talks an enraged Sonic down, and has his crew save Chris and Cosmo from the Metarex 

 

In Sonic X, the Metarex commander Black Narcissus attacked Chris and Cosmo, which nearly drove Sonic into an unstoppable rage.

Cue Eggman stepping in to provide Sonic with some perspective and remind him not to lose his cool. He manages to calm Sonic down, informing him that he sent Shadow to rescue Chris and Cosmo, and that they're fine. Eggman then proceeds to berate Black Narcissus for his cruelty, saying in no uncertain terms that hurting innocent people is wrong, and humiliates the commander by having Decoe, Bocoe, and Bokkun beat him to the curb.

Eggman didn't have to do any of this. Saving Sonic's friends or even calming Sonic down didn't really provide him any strategic advantage. But he did, and then explained why: Because Black Narcissus crossed Eggman's own personal moral code, and the Doc wasn't having it.

 

Sonic X Comics - El Gran Gordo pulls through so he doesn't disappoint his fans

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After initially becoming a luchador as part of a get-rich-quick scheme, where the Doctor won matches by cheating, Eggman eventually grew to love the spectacle and public adoration of being a hero. So for a time, he stuck with the wrestling gig, without any villainous intent this time.

This lands him in trouble when the hulking Andes the Ginormous challenges Gordo to a fight and completely mops the floor with him. Without his robots and gadgets to help him cheat, Eggman is no match for the might of Andes, and is just about to tap out to save himself any more pain or humiliation... when suddenly, from the stands he sees the tears of his number-one fan, Chris, and hears him say exactly what Eggman has perhaps always needed to hear: "I believe in you."

Despite the pain, despite his exhaustion, and despite being ridiculously out-matched, Gordo gets his second wind, and through pure raw determination, defeats Andes the Ginormous, claims the championship belt, and lives up to Chris's idealistic expectations. Chris's hero refused to let him down, and even in a moment of weakness, found the strength to win.

The El Gran Gordo arc is also my favorite story in the entire Sonic franchise, and I know that over the past decade I've gushed about it enough times already. It's just so good. 

 

Sonic X Comics - Eggman the Hedgehog

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In Sonic X issue 37, Sonic and Eggman swap bodies.

Blessed with Sonic's newfound speed and power, does Eggman attempt to use the hedgehog's body to take over the world? Nope. Just the opposite: Eggman loves being Sonic, and being seen as a hero to the world (which echoes his temporary stint as El Gran Gordo), and - upon hearing the president was kidnapped - attempts to rescue him. He actually seems content being the hero, and wants to use the fame and glory Sonic already has as a jump-start to his brand new heroic career.

Now, this begs the question: If X comic Eggman wants to be a beloved hero to the masses so badly, why doesn't he just reform? Why go through the middleman of luchador disguises or hijacking your arch-enemy's body to live out a life of heroism? He could just be Eggman and be a good guy, especially since this particular version of Eggman is so driven by wanting love and adoration, which heroism gives him in droves.

Ah well, he's a complicated guy.

 

Sonic Boom - Eggman chooses Amy's friendship over personal gain

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In "Fuzzy Puppy Buddies," Eggman and Amy discover that they share a mutual interest in a collectible tabletop game about adorable dogs. They spend the episode bonding and actually striking up a genuine friendship over their newfound hobby, working out an arrangement to still be enemies on the battlefield, but friends in their off time.

At PuppyCon, Eggman steals a puppy figurine, and Amy demands he do the right thing and give it back. So she challenges him to a game, wins, and gives Eggman an ultimatum: He can either return the figurine, or their friendship is over. Eggman hesitates at first, but relents, ultimately choosing Amy's friendship over the rare figurine he wanted. The episode ends with the two of them happily playing another game of Fuzzy Puppies in Eggman's base.

I like this episode, because it really gets at who Boom Eggman is. He's a lonely guy who wants friends more than a serious conqueror or evildoer. And when actually given friendship and positive reinforcement, he become a slightly better person.

 

Sonic Boom - Eggman the Wingman

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In "Tails' Crush," Tails has a crush on Zooey the fox, and keeps getting astoundingly bad romantic advice from his friends about how to ask her out. Tails ultimately makes a fool of himself and gets no closer to truly expressing his feelings.

Eggman witnesses this shameful display and, declaring that "the bro code trumps the enemy thing," gives Tails some solid romantic advice: Be confident in yourself and quit trying to copy others. He then immediately launches into an attack on the village - he is a villain, after all - and Tails, taking Eggman's advice, regains his confidence and saves the day. He gets a kiss from Zooey and ultimately ends up in a long-term relationship with her for the rest of the show; and we can thank Eggman for giving Tails the push he needed.

 

Sonic Boom - Eggman saves Beth the Shrew

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In "Don't Make Me Angry," Eggman's experiments go awry and lead to him temporarily transforming into an adorable little creature every time he gets mad. In order for the effects to wear off, Eggman must avoid getting angry for an entire 48 hours.

When Sonic realizes Eggman's condition, he takes pleasure in mocking Eggman for it - hoping to goad him into getting angry. Eventually he succeeds, causing Eggman to become the purple creature as the village laughs at his transformed state. But the young scientist-in-training, Beth the Shrew, takes pity on Eggman and doesn't mock him along with the other villagers. She shows up at his base with cookies a couple of days later to try to make him feel better; a gesture Eggman is touched by, despite the cookies themselves being rather unappetizing (they were made with toothpaste).

While exploring Eggman's lab, Beth accidentally falls into the trash compactor, which is automated and set to go off soon. Eggman frantically tries to save Beth from being crushed, but is too large to fit into the compactor himself. So he does the only thing he can: He goes out of his way to become angry so that he can morph into the purple creature, fit into the trash compactor, and pull Beth to safety. Initially, he has trouble doing this, and can't find any way to get angry in time - the futility of which itself ends up making him angry, allowing him to transform and save Beth from being crushed just in the nick of time.

This entire episode revolves around Eggman going out of his way - seriously doing everything he could, including morphing into a form he hates - to save a child's life. I think that's great.

 

__________

So, these are some of the immediate off-hand examples I had of Eggman doing outright good things without any villainous undertones. 

Share your opinions! Do you like stories that show some of Eggman's nicer side? Do you prefer takes on him that are just evil without any redeeming qualities? Maybe somewhere in the middle?

Or maybe you just feel like talking in-depth about any of these specific examples? Or you'd like to add some of your own that I didn't cover? There's a lot to talk about here, so feel free to chime in from whatever angle you want!

As for me, I love this stuff. Eggman showing a nicer, more humane side to himself is something I pretty much always enjoy seeing. So it's no surprise that X and Boom are my favorite takes on the character overall; even if I do also enjoy his more sinister incarnations in their own way.  In the end, I love that Eggman's a character with as much range as he has. Some stories can make him borderline-monstrous, while others give the impression that he could make a great hero if he'd just give up on world domination. And those latter stories are among my favorites in the Sonic franchise.

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I guess you could count the time Eggman spent as Mr. Tinker in the early issues of the IDW comics. 

For those who haven't read them, the comics take place after Sonic Forces. Eggman vanished, but was found in a small village (issue 4), completely missing his memory. He would likely have stayed that way if he hadn't been subjected to a little "therapy"... 

Sonic says it himself. He isn't faking the amnesia for an ulterior motive.

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14 minutes ago, HywelAtTheMoon said:

I guess you could count the time Eggman spent as Mr. Tinker in the early issues of the IDW comics. 

For those who haven't read them, the comics take place after Sonic Forces. Eggman vanished, but was found in a small village (issue 4), completely missing his memory. He would likely have stayed that way if he hadn't been subjected to a little "therapy"... 

Sonic says it himself. He isn't faking the amnesia for an ulterior motive.

Ah yes! I completely forgot about IDW when I made this post, but that's a very interesting example.

What I love about Mr. Tinker is that he didn't come out of nowhere; Something in Eggman's subconscious created Mr. Tinker. He's a part of Eggman in some way.

Heartbreakingly, he wanted to stay the way he was. He was happy being a kindly inventor and didn't want to be this "Eggman" that Starline insisted on turning him back into:

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I just find this angle really interesting. IDW Eggman, in this state of amnesia, is afraid of being Eggman. He doesn't want to remember being this horrible person who did these awful things. He just wants to live his life, helping people and using his genius to better the world. He had a second chance at a happy, fulfilled life. But it wasn't to be.

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22 minutes ago, Ivo-goji said:

The purest example:

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Not to forget his ordering the Chaotix to locate and protect wild Chao from Metal Sonic in Heroes,

Or the private vacation spot for them connected to the Egg Carrier.

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or sheltering a whole garden of them in Cryptic Castle during Shadow the Hedgehog.

Which he's embarrassed about. :lol: 

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1 hour ago, Ivo-goji said:

The purest example:

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Not to forget his ordering the Chaotix to locate and protect wild Chao from Metal Sonic in Heroes, or sheltering a whole garden of them in Cryptic Castle during Shadow the Hedgehog.

This is true! Eggman genuinely, canonically likes Chao and thinks they're cute. Even in Team Sonic Racing, Eggman is sweet to the Chao and tells them how adorable he thinks they are.

Also, now with sound! Gotta love that "Yooosh" Eggman does when petting Chao:

For a maniacal supervillain, Eggman's a lot nicer to the Chao than Knuckles' ancestors were. 

And actually, this Chao talk reminds me! Other Robotniks from non-game media have been shown to care for pets as well! Here are the Robotniks who've had literal "Pet the Dog" moments!

 

AoStH Robotnik's Pet: Spalding

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In "Sonic is Running," we learn that Robotnik has a spitting cobra named Spalding. Not even, like, a robotic snake or something. He just owns and cares for an actual living reptile, and seems rather fond of them.

I'm glad Robotnik gave Spalding a good home!

 

SatAM Robotnik's Pet: Cluck

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One of the few creatures SatAM Robotnik showed any empathy toward, Cluck was his beloved pet robot chicken.

And man, Robotnik loved this bird. He was constantly doting on them and showing genuine affection. It doesn't excuse Julian's atrociousness at all, don't misunderstand me. But it is interesting to see at least one being on the show that he truly loved and cared for.

 

Sonic X Comic Eggman - Cheese Clones

VdN9X6A.png

These guys are a little ambiguous as to whether they count as "pets."

Eggman took a DNA sample from Cheese and cloned a bunch of Chao that he kept in his own garden, and used a special signal to evolve them into Dark Chao - using them as adorable little minions for one of his schemes.

So this could be considered an example of Eggman just using the cloned Chao for his own selfish ends, but he is pretty nice and affectionate toward them. He pets them, gives them a spacious garden to live in, and compliments them on their cuteness. When they become rambunctious Dark Chao, he even gives them space to trash parts of his base, letting them enact their more aggressive tendencies. I'm going to say Eggman loved and cared for these Chao, and didn't just treat them as expendable tools for his plans.

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It feels like this “complicated guy” Eggman describes himself as can be simply broken down - he’s a narcissist, an egotist, he’s all about himself. He is a genius, and wants to be recognised as such. He can take anything he wants, and desires that others know that, even when he wants to take the world for himself.

Villainy is one of the fastest ways into this. It’s why lonely people who seek validation may resort to trolling online, because infamy gets them attention, and that’s not even the darkest real-world example. Dr Eggman creating massive armies, threatening the world, and creating Eggmanland? It gets him heard, and people pay attention to him. People remember his name, and fear him.

So why is Dr Eggman perfectly fine with being nice to people, and even being the hero? Because it puts the spotlight on him, dummy! He isn’t villainous for the sake of being villainous, Dr Eggman is who he is because he wants to be known. Maybe he’s aware of his evils, but loves the spotlight it gives him too much to stop.

It definitely makes him an interesting villain, especially in contrast to Sonic, who is always in the spotlight, yet that fact barely matters to him (even if it is fun in the spotlight, sometimes).

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1 minute ago, Polkadi~☆ said:

It feels like this “complicated guy” Eggman describes himself as can be simply broken down - he’s a narcissist, an egotist, he’s all about himself. He is a genius, and wants to be recognised as such. He can take anything he wants, and desires that others know that, even when he wants to take the world for himself.

So why is Dr Eggman perfectly fine with being nice to people, and even being the hero? Because it puts the spotlight on him, dummy! He isn’t villainous for the sake of being villainous, Dr Eggman is who he is because he wants to be known. Maybe he’s aware of his evils, but loves the spotlight it gives him too much to stop.

Oh yeah, that's totally fair. In the games, I definitely agree with you. Game Eggman is a lot less morally nuanced, generally speaking. I think it'd be absolutely fair to say that almost everything he does - even a lot of the "good" things - could feasibly have some underlying selfish motive like attention or recognition.

But I do think that in X (both the anime and comic) and Boom, Eggman's been shown to truly care about others beyond simply wanting to be recognized or praised by them, considering at least some of his acts of kindness were fairly low-key and not something he did while in the spotlight - such as helping Tails ask out Zooey or saving Beth from the trash compactor. (Though admittedly, El Gran Gordo - my favorite example - was a very overt, very public display.)

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2 hours ago, Petrifying Panda said:

This panel. Just, this panel.

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Ah yes. I adore how Eggman treats Metal Sonic with an almost fatherly sort of affection in the IDW comics.

We actually see this in the games too, in the Mario and Sonic series, such as Eggman gently patting Metal on the head in the London 2012 opening:

giphy.gif

This even comes back in Rio 2016, in Eggman's and Metal's team victory animation. Eggman is so proud of his number-one robot! 

More of this "fatherly" role comes across in Winter 2010 DS, he feels embarrassed that Metal Sonic witnessed him lose to the heroes, mirroring Bowser's own shame at losing in front of Bowser Jr.:

INkSvAx.png

Obviously being ashamed of losing isn't a "good deed," but I think the way he reacts to Metal Sonic specifically - and how it parallels Bowser's reaction to Bowser Jr. - sort of paints Eggman in somewhat paternal light to Metal. Instead of just treating him like a common minion or blaming him for his loss, Eggman simply wishes Metal didn't have to see him like that.

I just love how proud Eggman is of Metal; not just in a "This is my tool/weapon, I did a good job making it" but like, actually taking pride in his accomplishments, praising him, showing him affection, etc. All this even after his betrayal in Heroes. I'm glad the two of them have something of a positive relationship now.

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Oh hey, another one came to mind:

Eggman tells Shadow the truth

 

Once again, I'm not including this just because Eggman was cooperating with Shadow to save the world. I'm including it because Eggman chose to do the right thing, for someone else's sake, because it was the right thing to do. He had nothing to gain from letting Shadow know who he really was, and in fact could potentially be squandering future schemes by ditching the "robot" story. But he told him anyway.

"Shadow... this might be the last chance I have to speak to you..."

Eggman ponders his or Shadow's mortality here. He realizes this could be the end and - rather than go down lying to Shadow - he chooses to let him know who he truly is before it's all over. It's a spark of conscience for Eggman in what he thinks might be his final moments, and I think it definitely warrants a mention here.

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That reminds me of the Twitter Takeover where Eggman gets a question about Maria and immediately stops reading it and suggests they move on to a different question, out of consideration for Shadow.

It's more utilitarian, but Eggman has also behaved civilly towards Shadow and Rouge on occasions where it made as much sense for them to be enemies, like during their scenes together in Next Gen.  Eggman is usually rather polite towards Rouge compared to how he interacts with other characters (he probably remembers how she never openly betrayed him in SA2).  Made funnier in Team Sonic Racing when she attacks him on the track and he says "Rouge, I thought you liked me."

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Yet another:

Sonic X - Eggman cooks for Bokkun

wp8neRZ.png

After Decoe and Bocoe temporarily abandon the Eggman Empire, Eggman's left without either of them to take care of the household chores. So does he shove the work onto another robot? Nah, Eggman steps up and does it himself - notably attempting to make Bokkun breakfast.

He's, uh... not a very good cook. But he still tried to make Bokkun something to eat. Bokkun - being a robot - probably doesn't need to eat to survive, so this isn't even just Eggman being pragmatic and feeding his crew just because he has to. He knows Bokkun enjoys food, and tries his best to make some for him in his chefs' absence. While it doesn't go as planned, it's still a nice gesture on Eggman's part.

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4 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Yet another:

Sonic X - Eggman cooks for Bokkun

wp8neRZ.png

After Decoe and Bocoe temporarily abandon the Eggman Empire, Eggman's left without either of them to take care of the household chores. So does he shove the work onto another robot? Nah, Eggman steps up and does it himself - notably attempting to make Bokkun breakfast.

He's, uh... not a very good cook. But he still tried to make Bokkun something to eat. Bokkun - being a robot - probably doesn't need to eat to survive, so this isn't even just Eggman being pragmatic and feeding his crew just because he has to. He knows Bokkun enjoys food, and tries his best to make some for him in his chefs' absence. While it doesn't go as planned, it's still a nice gesture on Eggman's part.

Oh yeah, I remember that. And the weird tshirt Bokkun was wearing for some reason.

'S one of those things that made his exact species notably hard to discern.

 

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11 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Oh yeah, I remember that. And the weird tshirt Bokkun was wearing for some reason.

'S one of those things that made his exact species notably hard to discern.

 

Yeah. He is called a robot several times, though, despite eating and drinking like an organic lifeform.

Decoe and Bocoe eat while they're in prison too, which is especially impressive because they don't have mouths.

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On 10/14/2019 at 11:00 PM, Dr. Mechano said:

 

But I do think that in X (both the anime and comic) and Boom, Eggman's been shown to truly care about others beyond simply wanting to be recognized or praised by them, considering at least some of his acts of kindness were fairly low-key and not something he did while in the spotlight

One of my personal favorites, and it almost doesn't read like an act of kindness, (since it affords the Doctor the chance to gloat and monologue, but with some real moral fiber behind his words) Towards the end of Season 2 (episode 49 I believe) he gives out some tough advice when Chris comes barging into his base accusing him of causing the whole singularity thing that necessitates Sonic and crew having to leave Earth. At first he plays into it, but quickly turns around with a "wise up kid, this is over my head.... " speech spelling out that the he's reaching really hard for someone to blame and ultimately just looking to lash out.

A rare moment were Chris is called out for being a bit of a brat.

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14 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Yeah. He is called a robot several times, though, despite eating and drinking like an organic lifeform.

Which they cut out of the dub for the most part.

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Decoe and Bocoe eat while they're in prison too, which is especially impressive because they don't have mouths.

Yeah, that just adds to the confusion, since Bokkun looks nothing like most of Eggman's robots in that show besides Lady Ninja.

There was also the cut scene where he's hanging out in a malt shop.

5 minutes ago, Cuz said:

A rare moment were Chris is called out for being a bit of a brat.

Was he that often?

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4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Was he that often?

That's more or less what I sum up the general distaste for Chris's character as. He proceeds to bar Sonic from leaving with the rest of the cast, and at least on one occasion calls the collective chaos emerald *his*. 

The point being the way Robotnik talks down to him in this moment is uniquely constructive. Like a parent disciplining a child. He's not being a villain he's teaching a hard lesson.

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13 minutes ago, Cuz said:

That's more or less what I sum up the general distaste for Chris's character as. He proceeds to bar Sonic from leaving with the rest of the cast,

Well yeah, but that's just the one(albiet big) thing.

The only other thing I can think of is him playing crocodile on Danny during the Battle arc. Otherwise, I always just remember him being passive.

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and at least on one occasion calls the collective chaos emerald *his*. 

 Did he? 

13 minutes ago, Cuz said:

The point being the way Robotnik talks down to him in this moment is uniquely constructive. Like a parent disciplining a child. He's not being a villain he's teaching a hard lesson.

Oh, I know. That's why I didn't say anything--if fact, I actually thought about that scene last week.

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19 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Did he? 

It's a completely different arc, but that's what he says when they're brought back together way back in Season 1's finale. I never thought to hard on it, but he's clutches them and remarks they'll never been separated ever again. There's a whole wealth of ways to interpret that, but on the face of it.... he quite literally says "mine, mine, all mine"

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Just now, Cuz said:

It's a completely different arc, but that's what he says when they're brought back together way back in Season 1's finale. I never thought to hard on it, but he's clutches them and remarks they'll never been separated ever again. There's a whole wealth of ways to interpret that, but on the face of it.... 

Oh, was that when he brought free from being bolted down in the Egg Fort?

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That very much the one. 

 

As for the broader topic, I generally like this take on Robotnik. I specifically like the idea of him living up to his stated 300 IQ, and the idea that that causes him to crossover into morally sound stances once in a while is cool.

Personally I'd like seeing the opposite applied to Sonic, dubious traits and elements of the doctor reflecting onto him. For all the ways they're different both of them do share an ego, and I think that's an interesting perspective just with far less material to work with. 

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5 hours ago, Cuz said:

One of my personal favorites, and it almost doesn't read like an act of kindness, (since it affords the Doctor the chance to gloat and monologue, but with some real moral fiber behind his words) Towards the end of Season 2 (episode 49 I believe) he gives out some tough advice when Chris comes barging into his base accusing him of causing the whole singularity thing that necessitates Sonic and crew having to leave Earth. At first he plays into it, but quickly turns around with a "wise up kid, this is over my head.... " speech spelling out that the he's reaching really hard for someone to blame and ultimately just looking to lash out.

A rare moment were Chris is called out for being a bit of a brat.

That was a fantastic scene, and I agree. It really did seem like Eggman was showing Chris tough love there, laying down some hard truth for his own good.

The scene both in English and Japanese, for those who'd like to view it:

Of note is that in the Japanese version, Eggman is actually happy and relieved that Decoe and Bocoe are back (this scene happens after they temporarily abandon him), while the dub makes him a lot more openly snide toward them.

His speech is also a little different; In Japanese Eggman is more direct about how Chris is being self-centered and immature, while in English he kinda empathizes with him for life always "smacking him down." I actually like both, even if the Japanese version does a better job getting the point across.

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There was that episode Hedgehog Hunt, where he threatens Team Sonic and the Chaotix about a Metarex fleet surrounding the planet they're hiding on. Only to use his own Egg Crimson disguised as the Blue Typhoon to take the fall for them. This even gets his lackeys frustrated; why does he want to both destroy and protect Sonic? He never even brings this up in future episodes to wipe in their faces or anything. Who does that?

The Eggman does.

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(It always bugged me how Sonic AND Vector kind of knew about this, but never told anyone else; unless it was a dub thing.)

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